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Thread: Enneagram and Personality Disorders

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    Default Enneagram and Personality Disorders

    From Enneagram institute:

    1 - Obsessive Compulsive / Depressive
    2 - Histrionic / Factitious
    3 - Narcissistic
    4 - Avoidant / Depressive / Narcissistic
    5 - Schizoid / Avoidant / Schizotypal
    6 - Passive Aggressive / Paranoid
    7 - Bipolar / Histrionic
    8 - Antisocial
    9 - Schizoid / Dependent


    Can you relate?
    3w4-5w6-9w8

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    Bizarre as it sounds, I identify with avoidant, narcissistic AND histrionic (depressive as well).
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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    I am bipolar, and identify with narcissistic, schizotypal, and avoidant. I identify with depressive on my bipolar "downs."
    2-subtype system: IEI-Fe
    8-subtype system: D-IEI-Fe
    16-subtype system: IEI-ESE

    IEI-Fe 2w3 > p6w5 > 8w7 sx/so

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azeroffs View Post
    From Enneagram institute:

    1 - Obsessive Compulsive / Depressive
    2 - Histrionic / Factitious
    3 - Narcissistic
    4 - Avoidant / Depressive / Narcissistic
    5 - Schizoid / Avoidant / Schizotypal
    6 - Passive Aggressive / Paranoid
    7 - Bipolar / Histrionic
    8 - Antisocial
    9 - Schizoid / Dependent


    Can you relate?
    Technically, passive aggressive and depressive aren't personality disorders and are still being researched to decide if they are valid diagnoses. Also, bipolar and factitious aren't personality disorders.

    I can see obsessive compulsive or depressive for ones. I don't know if I would pin antisocial on any type. I think narcissistic might work better for 8.

    On a side note I was looking at the faculty of a program I am interested in and one of the members interests is enneagram and temperament. For some reason I find this strange... the thought that someone takes seriously what I don't lol.
    “No psychologist should pretend to understand what he does not understand... Only fools and charlatans know everything and understand nothing.” -Anton Chekhov

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    http://kevan.org/nohari?name=Bardia0

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    ya, those are a couple of disorders i've seriously considered the possibility i might have

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bardia View Post
    I think narcissistic might work better for 8.
    Actually, 8s aren't supposed to be narcissistic. I guess they could be, but the 8-fixation has nothing to do with them as a person. 8s are usually not very self-aware, and they have no need for self-aggrandizement because they have little to no self-doubt.
    3w4-5w6-9w8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azeroffs View Post
    Actually, 8s aren't supposed to be narcissistic. I guess they could be, but the 8-fixation has nothing to do with them as a person. 8s are usually not very self-aware, and they have no need for self-aggrandizement because they have little to no self-doubt.
    Exactly. 8s are wholly unconcerned with image, their fixation being on control.
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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    Creepy-male

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    Yeah, Schizoid. I remember reading a book about what sorts of screwed-up childhoods produce what personality disorders, and the Schizoid chapter hit way too close to home. As far as aligning my personality with a personality disorder, SPD is probably the neatest fit.

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    Avoidant 5w4 agrees.

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    8 is SOCIOPATHIC, it´s a personality disorder. 1s OBSESSIVE-COMPULSIVE/DEPRESSIVE, I am a 1 and relate to being depressive and OCD, I have these two conditions. There is a condition called Depressive Personality Disorder in DSM-IV, you can see it here, but it is different from a Major Depressive Episode.

    Personality disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



    4 tends to Borderline Personality Disorder and Depression.

    5 is Schizoid (too isolated).

    6 Paranoid

    7 Histrionic

    3 Narcissistic

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    9w8-5w6-3w4

    If these are considered mild and not enough for actual personality disorder diagnoses, then

    1.(secret-shizoid)/antisocial
    |||||||||||||||||||||||||
    2.schizotypal/paranoid
    |||||||||||||||||||||||||
    3.narcissistic/depressive

    That's pretty interesting to look at it that way. But what about the positives? LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by Divided View Post
    9w8-5w6-3w4

    If these are considered mild and not enough for actual personality disorder diagnoses, then

    1.(secret-shizoid)/antisocial
    |||||||||||||||||||||||||
    2.schizotypal/paranoid
    |||||||||||||||||||||||||
    3.narcissistic/depressive

    That's pretty interesting to look at it that way. But what about the positives? LOL
    The positive side of the etype is being able to escape it. lol
    not really, but kinda.

    p.s. is that really your tritpe?
    <-- 3w4-5w6-9w8
    3w4-5w6-9w8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azeroffs View Post
    The positive side of the etype is being able to escape it. lol
    not really, but kinda.

    p.s. is that really your tritpe?
    <-- 3w4-5w6-9w8
    Yeah. That's uncanny. We're enneagram mirrors.

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    I identify most with schizoid, avoidant, depressive, and obsessive-compulsive in that order. Hence enneagram 5, then 1.
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    Shit.

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    Creepy-male

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    8s and 6s both have the inherent capacity to describe any individual with a background of childhood trauma.

    Additionally, Fours very specifically describe due to an emotionally invalidating childhood environment.

    Funnily enough that puts the entire reactive triad as highly eligible for describing any individual with a borderline personality style, whether it is to disorder levels or not.

    As an additional comment I don't think you can fairly map genuine personality disorders to enneagram. I can relate with a lot of 6, 8, and 4 for various reasons relating to my emotionally absent parents and quantitatively absent social network growing up, but I think I'm still fairly patently evidently a Nine in how I deal with everything that doesn't trigger a freaky flare-up of borderline bullshit.

    EDIT

    I also kind of question the usefulness of "levels of health". Part of my problem is it's hard to tell where all the maladaptive behaviours and emotional dysregulation from growing up end, and the enneagram begins. I'm coming up out of my booze now so I can't really think too deeply, but this is a thing that logically itches at me a bit to resolve, so I will likely come back to it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azeroffs View Post
    Can you relate?
    Yeah, basically (5 here). I am somewhat avoidant and actually have borderline OCD tendencies. LIIs often seem to be 1s.

    ILI 5s might relate more to schizotypal and schizoid.

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    I'd add anxious to type 1, histrionic to type 4, masochistic to type 2 and sadistic to type 8 otherwise seems to be spot on.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Egbert Human View Post
    8s and 6s both have the inherent capacity to describe any individual with a background of childhood trauma.

    Additionally, Fours very specifically describe due to an emotionally invalidating childhood environment.
    This article http://pstypes.blogspot.com/search/label/Enneagram describes type 4s resulting from having active (willful, assertive) child in care of neutral (ambivalent, indifferent) parent and type 8s resulting from having an active child in care of active parent.

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    That article also describes basically healthy relationships. I'm talking about abusive and neglectful relationships.

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    I thnk I would fall under category one, obsessive compulsive/depressive.

    There was a time when I would be compelled to do just about everything four times over and over. As I got into my later teens, I got over it. (For the most part.)

    Now I only have the very occasional relapse, usally when I'm feeling depressed.

    I have been known to be slightly avoidant at times as well.
    The mode of goodness conditions one to happiness, passion conditions him to the fruits of action, and ignorance to madness.

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    Paranoid + avoidant. Two great tastes that taste great together.

    re: siuntal's article
    As interesting as that theory may be, neither of my parents are responsive types (9w1 mother, 8w9 father) and yet I am E6 and my brother is either E5 or E6, both types requiring a responsive parent according to that theory. So already from a practical standpoint I'm not seeing it in action.

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    Let's revive this thread!

    Here my edits for the PDs:

    1 - Obsessive Compulsive
    2 - Histrionic > Borderline
    3 - Narcissistic
    4 - Avoidant > Borderline
    5 - Schizoid > Schizotypal
    6 - Paranoid
    7 - Borderline, Schizotypal
    8 - Antisocial
    9 - Dependent

    The above are the essences of the types, and if someone goes to the unhealthiest level of a type, they'll resemble the corresponding Personality Disorder.

    But it is not just about Core type. A strong wing or fix can also make someone lean more towards a certain PD.

    For example, many Narcissists are 8s with a strong secondary 3 fix, or on the other side, an 8 with a strong 3 fix may start to resemble a Narcissist more.
    It can be somewhat fluid like that.

    P.S: Some of the disorders mentioned by the Enneagram institute are actually not personality disorders, but mood disorders or unofficial etc, e.g Depressive; I edited those out.
    Last edited by Olimpia; 03-11-2018 at 08:24 AM.
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    7 - ADHS ? ...in case AHDS counts as PD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WinnieW View Post
    7 - ADHS ? ...in case AHDS counts as PD.
    I agree that ADHD is typical 7-ness, but it doesn't count as a PD.

    According to the current DSM, there are 10 PDs, all of which I have mentioned above.
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    Lol. This interests me. I can relate to bipolar, depressive, avoidant, dependent, OCD, and ADHD. Sometimes Paranoid. I think I seemed really shizotypal in my younger days. When I get paranoid, people start typing me as 6 Paranoia is a symptom of hypomania for me. I'm not always that way. I alternate between being too trustful of everyone, to the government is after me, I need to disappear immediately.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aster View Post
    I alternate between being too trustful of everyone, to the government is after me, I need to disappear immediately.
    What triggers that kind of thinking or response in you?

    (And yes, this sounds quite phobic 6 combined with 9!)
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    I mostly relate to Avoidant and Schizoid. When I become unhealthy, I mostly become like a mix of these PDs.
    (A few years ago, one of my past online friends who had studied psychology suggested I could be Schizoid, ha. xp)

    Some time ago, I considered I might actually have Avoidant PD, but then I dismissed the thought. Self-diagnoses when you are currently less healthy are usually flawed. And I know that whenever I become more mentally healthy, the Avoidant traits or habits become less and less pronounced and even fall to the way side eventually.

    Besides that, I have had an odd OCD-like phase in my mid teens, can struggle with becoming more independent like someone with Dependent PD, and once in a while I have a hint of Paranoia when it comes to romantic relationships or future developments.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olimpia View Post
    What triggers that kind of thinking or response in you?

    (And yes, this sounds quite phobic 6 combined with 9!)
    Idk. lol. I've thought about it quite a few times, trying to figure out my trigger. I think it's when I think I feel like I have done something wrong or illegal. I can get paranoid enough that I will start thinking of everything to cover my tracks, and start to think in extremes about it. Like let's say I have some paraphernilia, or have some drugs. and it's something that happens close to home that will make my paranoia prickle, like maybe my cousin is being investigated and I'm worried that I am going to be mentioned or they could come to my house, and my worry may be completely irrational..id bleach my whole house, probably reading ways online to purify it, and I'd probably go out to the middle of nowhere and bury it or burn all evidence, and I'd probably go to extreme length to detoxify my system. Even if I'm in no immediate danger. Just an example of something I would do. I don't do illegal drugs anymore, or haven't for a very long time. I start thinking of all possible angles someone could come at me and how to eliminate evidence. I google to find everything I can about the situation and how I could best deal with it. I'd consider how my search could be tracked and try to block my IP address. I could get so worked up, I'd start thinking of ways I could dissapear or change my name. All this and I wouldn't have even been mentioned or investigated.
    Last edited by aster; 03-11-2018 at 04:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olimpia View Post
    Let's revive this thread!

    Here my edits for the PDs:

    1 - Obsessive Compulsive
    2 - Histrionic > Borderline
    3 - Narcissistic
    4 - Avoidant > Borderline
    5 - Schizoid > Schizotypal
    6 - Paranoid
    7 - Borderline, Schizotypal
    8 - Antisocial
    9 - Dependent

    The above are the essences of the types, and if someone goes to the unhealthiest level of a type, they'll resemble the corresponding Personality Disorder.

    But it is not just about Core type. A strong wing or fix can also make someone lean more towards a certain PD.

    For example, many Narcissists are 8s with a strong secondary 3 fix, or on the other side, an 8 with a strong 3 fix may start to resemble a Narcissist more.
    It can be somewhat fluid like that.

    P.S: Some of the disorders mentioned by the Enneagram institute are actually not personality disorders, but mood disorders or unofficial etc, e.g Depressive; I edited those out.
    If I can emphasise one thing when discussing Enneagram, it would be to consider instincts at all times. Here is why: the instincts control what areas of life a type neurosis will manifest in. This of course colours the neurosis itself.

    At the time Naranjo wrote Character & Neurosis, instinct theory had not yet been fully integrated, which is a problem. For example his Type 3 entry is associated with "Market-Orientation" and the core vice he associates with the type is vanity. Read the entry and you will see that the description is strongly weighted towards an SO/SP 3 which has led to the type stereotypes commonly propagated on this forum and elsewhere. I believe that Ichazo understood the nuances of Enneatype a little better. There are also excellent summaries by Hurley & Dobson on 9types which I have linked before and will do again. (Plus look at the diagrams because they show type dynamics well)

    e.g. http://www.9types.com/descr/?type=3&book=hurley1

    To recap on a link to personality disorders - this is not intrinsic but depends on the individual's level of health, symptoms of a personality disorder will only start to develop at Level 7 (which is quite low) and I doubt that applies to many people here.

    (sorry this post is kind of scattered but I'm multitasking)


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    From enneagram institute:

    1: Obsessive-compulsive, Depressive

    2: Histrionic, Facticious

    3: Narcissistic, (Psychopathic behaviour)

    4: Avoidant, Depressive, Narcissistic

    5: Schizoid avoidant, Schizotypal

    6: Passive aggressive, Paranoid

    7: Bipolar, Histrionic

    8: Antisocial

    9: Schizoid, Dependent, (Multiple personality disorder)


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    Everyone, we need to develop a personality disorder to prove our types and win battle-typing once and for all!

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    Can really relate to having all of them.

    Everybody always tells me what a weirdo I am, how strange I am and how I shouldn't say certain things. It's true I kind of naturally loathe and troll normativity but... I also in a way feel like the basic bitch in Starbucks that always orders a pumpkin spice latte and nothing else interesting. I try to be a non-offensive, productive and well-adjusted heterosexual member of society that always produces the most appropriate emotional reaction depending on the circumstance but I always do it feeling like I'm biting my teeth on the edge of a cliff.

    Like for example I was waiting in the dr.'s office today and I saw a picture of Jennifer Aniston's stupid narcissitic face on the magazine stand and I wanted to just brutally punch her for some reason... I mean not in a malice way but not totally innocent either. But I can't say things like that in public because despite being a fag- I'm a gruff pure man like I said before on other threads and it would get taken the wrong way and I would get arrested by authorities that took me super seriously while some suburban house mom gasped at me and whacked me on the arm with her purse.... and its not like I would assault jennifer aniston for real or anything, and what do I really have against her, anyway? I just kind of want to punch her in a half-playful and half-sadistic way but this is of course morally 'wrong' and not acceptable by society... and admitting something like this makes me a weirdo I know. But I won't admit it in public irl. I never really talk bout normal things either -unless I have to. I will just talk bout the weather like most people while secretly wanting to punch jennifer aniston in the face.

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