Results 1 to 19 of 19

Thread: Life on Mars

  1. #1
    Bananas are good. Aleksei's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    The Rift
    TIM
    C-EIE, 7-4-8 sx/sp
    Posts
    1,632
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Life on Mars

    The Master -- err, Sam Tyler- ESI-Se, 3w2 so/sp (ISFJ)
    Gene Hunt- Walking SLE-Se stereotype, 8w7 sp/sx (ESTP)
    Annie Cartwright- EII-Fi, 2w3 sx/so (INFJ)

    Actors (via VI -- been experimenting with it tonight)

    John Simm- IEI-Fe
    Philip Glenister- LSE-Te
    Liz White- IEI-Ni
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

  2. #2
    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    5,983
    Mentioned
    80 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    They seemsed like an ENTj-ESTp couple. Main character was way too dynamic to be ISFj, imo. But definitely Judging.

  3. #3
    Dance Magic Dance CloudCuckooLander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    154
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    They seemsed like an ENTj-ESTp couple. Main character was way too dynamic to be ISFj, imo. But definitely Judging.
    I disagree, Sam Tyler is a rather subdued man, and I see little in the way of Te in him (by contrast, he oozes Se and especially Fi). Additionally, I agree with Aleksei that his relationship with Annie fits a kindred relationship perfectly.

    I also agree that John Simm as a person is IEI, despite the fact that he usually plays EIE characters (he played The Master as EIE, and Caligula as yet another - based on history, that seems to be a true to the historical record type depiction). In interviews, he's more quiet and mellow than his acting persona would suggest, leading me to conclude it's simply an example of producing Fe.

    "It's the godawful small affair, to the girl with the mousy hair..."
    2-subtype system: IEI-Fe
    8-subtype system: D-IEI-Fe
    16-subtype system: IEI-ESE

    IEI-Fe 2w3 > p6w5 > 8w7 sx/so

    "He who has felt the deepest grief is best able to experience supreme happiness. We must have felt what it is to die, that we may appreciate the enjoyments of living." - Edmond Dantes (The Count of Monte Cristo, Alexandre Dumas père)

  4. #4
    The Iniquitous inumbra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    TIM
    954
    Posts
    5,989
    Mentioned
    70 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    hah I've seen this show... I agree with hunt as SLE and cartwright as EII. as for tyler, i'd been considering EII and actually a lot of things... i like the ESI idea, i really do, but i was thinking that he seemed kind of Si valuing, possibly Se PoLR. but I would like him as ESI, i just find pinning his character to a type difficult.

    (also i kind of saw the Master as more of an ILE, personally... i thought he kind of reeked of Fe HA in sound of drums and last of the time lords... and he has the doctor's Ne leading "powers" and is very similar to the doctor only evil... of course in the end of time he seems to have a lot more Fe output that doesn't seem so Fe HAish and i don't really know how consistent his character is... i could see thinking he seems like some sort of Fe ego from just watching the end of time)

  5. #5
    Bananas are good. Aleksei's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    The Rift
    TIM
    C-EIE, 7-4-8 sx/sp
    Posts
    1,632
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    The Master I'd say was more of a C-EIE. He was awesome in any case.
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

  6. #6
    Dance Magic Dance CloudCuckooLander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    154
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    hah I've seen this show... I agree with hunt as SLE and cartwright as EII. as for tyler, i'd been considering EII and actually a lot of things... i like the ESI idea, i really do, but i was thinking that he seemed kind of Si valuing, possibly Se PoLR. but I would like him as ESI, i just find pinning his character to a type difficult.

    (also i kind of saw the Master as more of an ILE, personally... i thought he kind of reeked of Fe HA in sound of drums and last of the time lords... and he has the doctor's Ne leading "powers" and is very similar to the doctor only evil... of course in the end of time he seems to have a lot more Fe output that doesn't seem so Fe HAish and i don't really know how consistent his character is... i could see thinking he seems like some sort of Fe ego from just watching the end of time)
    I disagree, Sam Tyler is all about taking immediate action right in the present moment, and tends to yell and shout when that action is not immediate - hardly typical of an Ne-ego, but not rare for an Se-ego. I also see little concern for his physical health, well-being, or relaxation.

    As for the Master, he doesn't really seem to have the Doctor's Ne - randomness does not an Ne-base make, after all, though it is a common silly assumption to make. He's rather ridiculously Fe (emotionally bombastic as all hell, and enjoys playing to and manipulating the emotions of Lucy, as well as using that same Fe to irritate people he dislikes such as the Doctor, a sign of both Fe-ego and the aristocratic dichotomy), and seems to have Ni rather than Ne what with his focusing on one set plan of the future. And I do see Se-HA in his torturing of Jack Harkness, as well as in his concern for practical application of the sci-fi screwdrivers (preferring the more practically-usable laser screwdriver) - "Laser screwdriver! Who'd have sonic? And the good thing is, he's not dead for long. I GET TO KILL HIM AGAIN!"
    2-subtype system: IEI-Fe
    8-subtype system: D-IEI-Fe
    16-subtype system: IEI-ESE

    IEI-Fe 2w3 > p6w5 > 8w7 sx/so

    "He who has felt the deepest grief is best able to experience supreme happiness. We must have felt what it is to die, that we may appreciate the enjoyments of living." - Edmond Dantes (The Count of Monte Cristo, Alexandre Dumas père)

  7. #7
    The Iniquitous inumbra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    TIM
    954
    Posts
    5,989
    Mentioned
    70 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CloudCuckooLander View Post
    I disagree, Sam Tyler is all about taking immediate action right in the present moment, and tends to yell and shout when that action is not immediate - hardly typical of an Ne-ego, but not rare for an Se-ego.
    yes i see this side of his character... however he also has the side of generally finding violence abhorrent and walking out of the room rather than stopping gene hunt from abusing someone... i don't really see his character as liking these kinds of confrontations and that they take a lot out of him (I think he'd like a world where people don't kill and beat the crap out of each other where he can just be at peace and smell the roses, or something, and no one abuses their power). I'm still failing to explain how i see an Si valuing sort of side to him. Kind of like his fond memories of auntie heather when he was lying sick in bed as a child and her soft soothing voice comforting him... i just see this side to the character that isn't so Se>Si ish. it's difficult for me to make a clear type archetype out of him.

    <thread derail>

    As for the Master, he doesn't really seem to have the Doctor's Ne - randomness does not an Ne-base make, after all, though it is a common silly assumption to make.
    yes and it's terribly kind of you to decide i'm making that assumption. i think that the concept of his character is generally someone who can pull magical out of the box technical solutions out of his ass (sharing the doctor's proficiency at this). they're very similar in this sense. they're also both really narcissistic and hung up on themselves in this sort of "look at me!" way. anyway i think the master and the doctor are intended to be two sides of the same coin. but if anything the master lacks some of the "randomness" of the doctor and that's one way i see them as different... the master is more about large-scale long-term highly organized plans that account for every little detail (and i doubt the doctor could apply so much focus)... where as the doctor is more random and whimsical and may not have a well-formed over-arching plan (or perhaps he just doesn't let on about it) and relies more on his ability to come up with a solution out of nowhere on a whim (he seems to wing it more).

    he's rather ridiculously Fe,
    yeah, he's rather Fe HA imo. he rarely btw seems to express any genuine feelings, they usually are just fake and for the sake of attention-gathering and his over-the-top obnoxious presentations. He doesn't really honestly seem to lose his temper much and he seems like actually a very logical person who just gets all over-the-top Fe when he has an audience (or at least in S3, as i do see him as more directly Fe in the end of time like i said).

    and seems to have Ni rather than Ne what with his focusing on one set plan of the future. And I do see Se-HA in his torturing of Jack Harkness,
    right but it seems you're just saying "the master has more of a long term focus on one plan therefore he must be Ni" and "he killed capt jack and looks forward to doing it again, so Se HA". I would add that the master would probably prefer to kill capt jack permanently if only he could (since capt jack as a fixed point in time anomaly probably looks just as "wrong" to the master as he does to the doctor, hence calling him "the freak"). i would also add that there isn't any evidence of the master actually torturing capt jack (it seemed he was chained up in the boiler room for a year) and the master seems to like just killing people quickly and efficiently with his laser screwdriver. i would say though that he was obviously torturing/abusing the doctor and lucy that entire year because he's a very cruel person who can't seem to restrain himself from hurting others since he hates everyone so much and probably because his own existence is a torment.

    as well as in his concern for practical application of the sci-fi screwdrivers (preferring the more practically-usable laser screwdriver) - "Laser screwdriver! Who'd have sonic? And the good thing is, he's not dead for long. I GET TO KILL HIM AGAIN!"
    i thought he just liked the laser screwdriver because it was more dramatic and he can use it to kill people (the doctor's screwdriver can't be used to kill or injure people reflecting the doctor's pacisfist nature although i guess it would be possible to set up a sonic pulse aimed only at one person and kill them if he wanted so i'm not sure either screwdriver is more practical than the other... but the master thinks his is "cooler" than the doctor's. it's a "my toy's better than yours" kind of thing (I believe it was also much bigger than the doctor's which i'm sure he made a point to make it that way).

  8. #8
    Dance Magic Dance CloudCuckooLander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    154
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    yes i see this side of his character... however he also has the side of generally finding violence abhorrent and walking out of the room rather than stopping gene hunt from abusing someone... i don't really see his character as liking these kinds of confrontations and that they take a lot out of him (I think he'd like a world where people don't kill and beat the crap out of each other where he can just be at peace and smell the roses, or something, and no one abuses their power). I'm still failing to explain how i see an Si valuing sort of side to him. Kind of like his fond memories of auntie heather when he was lying sick in bed as a child and her soft soothing voice comforting him... i just see this side to the character that isn't so Se>Si ish. it's difficult for me to make a clear type archetype out of him.
    But do note that he's forceful in preventing that violence, which strikes me as thus more Se blocked with Fi. He's very harsh and direct about his anti-violence opinions. Additionally, he clearly supervises Gene, bossing his own boss around.

    yes and it's terribly kind of you to decide i'm making that assumption. i think that the concept of his character is generally someone who can pull magical out of the box technical solutions out of his ass (sharing the doctor's proficiency at this). they're very similar in this sense. they're also both really narcissistic and hung up on themselves in this sort of "look at me!" way. anyway i think the master and the doctor are intended to be two sides of the same coin. but if anything the master lacks some of the "randomness" of the doctor and that's one way i see them as different... the master is more about large-scale long-term highly organized plans that account for every little detail (and i doubt the doctor could apply so much focus)... where as the doctor is more random and whimsical and may not have a well-formed over-arching plan (or perhaps he just doesn't let on about it) and relies more on his ability to come up with a solution out of nowhere on a whim (he seems to wing it more).
    Precisely... the Master is more Ni, the Doctor more Ne. Both are highly N and usually Fe-valuing (though not always, the Tenth Doctor is more IEE). However, the Doctor tends to consider multiple options at once, whereas the Master focuses on one and one alone.

    yeah, he's rather Fe HA imo. he rarely btw seems to express any genuine feelings, they usually are just fake and for the sake of attention-gathering and his over-the-top obnoxious presentations. He doesn't really honestly seem to lose his temper much and he seems like actually a very logical person who just gets all over-the-top Fe when he has an audience (or at least in S3, as i do see him as more directly Fe in the end of time like i said).
    I disagree. He's a sadistic sociopath, but those feelings were genuine. He was genuinely just about shitting his pants when he saw the Doctor resurrected. His constant rambling about how much he finds humanity disgusting? That was all genuine seething hatred, same with his rambling about finding the Doctor disgusting. They're not faked like Fe-HA would be.

    I would add that the master would probably prefer to kill capt jack permanently if only he could (since capt jack as a fixed point in time anomaly probably looks just as "wrong" to the master as he does to the doctor, hence calling him "the freak"). i would also add that there isn't any evidence of the master actually torturing capt jack (it seemed he was chained up in the boiler room for a year) and the master seems to like just killing people quickly and efficiently with his laser screwdriver. i would say though that he was obviously torturing/abusing the doctor and lucy that entire year because he's a very cruel person who can't seem to restrain himself from hurting others since he hates everyone so much and probably because his own existence is a torment.
    His own statements contradict you on the Jack part. He explicitly states the BEST part is that he can kill Jack again and again. He doesn't just want Jack permanently dead, he wants to revel in the delight of killing him again and again. This is, by definition, a form of torture. He also reveled in the delight of torturing the Doctor and abusing Lucy, yes. This strikes me as an example of unhealthy Se-HA.

    i thought he just liked the laser screwdriver because it was more dramatic and he can use it to kill people (the doctor's screwdriver can't be used to kill or injure people reflecting the doctor's pacisfist nature although i guess it would be possible to set up a sonic pulse aimed only at one person and kill them if he wanted so i'm not sure either screwdriver is more practical than the other... but the master thinks his is "cooler" than the doctor's. it's a "my toy's better than yours" kind of thing (I believe it was also much bigger than the doctor's which i'm sure he made a point to make it that way).
    It wasn't significantly bigger, but yes, he can use it to kill people - ergo, it is more practically beneficial than the laser screwdriver. He's more concerned about practical application and plans (Se-Ni) than the Doctor's impractical flights of fancy (Ne - the most blatant example being the "timey wimey detector" that "goes ding when there's stuff).
    2-subtype system: IEI-Fe
    8-subtype system: D-IEI-Fe
    16-subtype system: IEI-ESE

    IEI-Fe 2w3 > p6w5 > 8w7 sx/so

    "He who has felt the deepest grief is best able to experience supreme happiness. We must have felt what it is to die, that we may appreciate the enjoyments of living." - Edmond Dantes (The Count of Monte Cristo, Alexandre Dumas père)

  9. #9
    The Iniquitous inumbra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    TIM
    954
    Posts
    5,989
    Mentioned
    70 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CloudCuckooLander View Post
    But do note that he's forceful in preventing that violence, which strikes me as thus more Se blocked with Fi. He's very harsh and direct about his anti-violence opinions. Additionally, he clearly supervises Gene, bossing his own boss around.
    I see this, and this kind of thing is part of my considerations. I'm not ready to jump to Se valuing though because of this, it's a matter of seeing multiple facets to the character.

    Precisely... the Master is more Ni, the Doctor more Ne. Both are highly N and usually Fe-valuing (though not always, the Tenth Doctor is more IEE). However, the Doctor tends to consider multiple options at once, whereas the Master focuses on one and one alone.
    I suppose this could be a good argument. I would also say that the Master is more "Ti" though. In his own way he seems a little more practical, ordered and perhaps even competent than the doctor, with greater ability to concentrate and focus (although with the same apparent intolerance for boredom). One issue with him as Ne valuing as well is his need to conquer the universe, which was something dragged back in from the "old show" where the master i think was a rather different kind of character, even between regenerations. I think that Russell T. Davies deliberately revamped the master's character as more like the doctor injecting more Ne-ish ness into him than was there before perhaps.

    I disagree. He's a sadistic sociopath, but those feelings were genuine. He was genuinely just about shitting his pants when he saw the Doctor resurrected. His constant rambling about how much he finds humanity disgusting? That was all genuine seething hatred, same with his rambling about finding the Doctor disgusting. They're not faked like Fe-HA would be.
    oh well yes, his expression of shock when the doctor was restored was genuine as he didn't believe that all these things like faith and hope could do this (being a sinister villain he naturally overlooks the powers of "good" and so on). I'm referring more to his fake expressions and charades... such as his fake way of acting around lucy prior to his take over, his fake over-the-top glee at the arrival of martha's family and fake expressions of mock sympathy (he's always performing to some extent, with the exception of those times when he's honestly floored... and yes, i agree when he's expressing "seething hatred" it's real)... i think he likes it when everyone around him is visibly miserable so he can relish in their bad feelings and really know that they're suffering (and it's boring to him if they don't show visible displays of feeling, of outrage, or pain, or the like). Anyway oddly i see the Doctor as often performing as well (i see them both as being more about the "presentation").

    I mean as a contrast, I think I saw the master as more real in moments like his phone conversation with the doctor about how he ran from the time war because he was so scared. He does have these rare moments of sincerity when he's turned the "big presentation" off. And with his glee, he is very maniacal and loses control of himself in his joy at taking over things, killing people, wreaking havoc and spreading chaos, etc. I think that this is a sort of flight from his madness... that it makes him feel better and that he loves those times when he's high on his own mania.

    His own statements contradict you on the Jack part. He explicitly states the BEST part is that he can kill Jack again and again. He doesn't just want Jack permanently dead, he wants to revel in the delight of killing him again and again.
    I guess I interpretted that as more part of his "presentation" as in I see his delight in killing Jack again and again and looking forward to this as "fake". I think he loves killing people yes, but I'm willing to bet he just locked Jack up in the boiler room and forgot about him for the year, with the exception of bringing him back on deck for monumental events such as the burning of Japan.

    He also reveled in the delight of torturing the Doctor and abusing Lucy, yes. This strikes me as an example of unhealthy Se-HA.
    But Se-HA types aren't the only ones who can torture, surely.

    It wasn't significantly bigger, but yes, he can use it to kill people - ergo, it is more practically beneficial than the laser screwdriver. He's more concerned about practical application and plans (Se-Ni) than the Doctor's impractical flights of fancy (Ne - the most blatant example being the "timey wimey detector" that "goes ding when there's stuff).
    yes but the doctor deliberately made his screw driver so it can't actually kill people (it's an intentional choice). He's even said this in at least one episode. I see no praticality difference. The Doctor's screwdriver performs the practical functions he wants it to (so does the master's). And probably the TARDIS created both of their screwdrivers and they probably come with some rather standard design specs and what not. So I just see this as not being a point at all in this (it's irrelevant). The only thing I thought was significant about the Master's screwdriver is he had to make a big deal about his to impress upon the doctor how it's so much more awesome (because it's all a part of the childish antics against the doctor). As far as evil villains go the master is terribly cutesy about it and puts on facades of cheeriness.
    Last edited by inumbra; 11-21-2010 at 09:17 PM.

  10. #10
    Dance Magic Dance CloudCuckooLander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    154
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I see this, and this kind of thing is part of my considerations. I'm not ready to jump to Se valuing though because of this, it's a matter of seeing multiple facets to the character.
    Yes, but it's also a matter of what's most likely - based on his actions and behavior, as well as his intertype relations, the character is most likely to be an ESI with his near-pacifism coming from his Fi-base.

    I suppose this could be a good argument. I would also say that the Master is more "Ti" though.
    I don't see much Ti in Simm's depiction of the Master, though I'll agree that most past depictions thereof (Delgado's, Ainley's) have been very Ti - most depictions of the Master are LSI. I see no reason that the character would maintain a steady type, as his personality shifts between incarnations.

    I'm referring more to his fake expressions and charades... such as his fake way of acting around lucy prior to his take over, his fake over-the-top glee at the arrival of martha's family and fake expressions of mock sympathy (he's always performing to some extent, with the exception of those times when he's honestly floored... and yes, i agree when he's expressing "seething hatred" it's real)... i think he likes it when everyone around him is visibly miserable so he can relish in their bad feelings and really know that they're suffering (and it's boring to him if they don't show visible displays of feeling, of outrage, or pain, or the like). Anyway oddly i see the Doctor as often performing as well (i see them both as being more about the "presentation").
    I wouldn't say that glee was fake - he seemed genuinely overjoyed (and frankly, turned on) by fucking with Martha's head, probably as a result of his sadism. The way he behaved around Lucy certainly was though, but it struck me as an example of Fe emotional pandering and manipulation. He wasn't manipulating her based on logic, but rather based on her feelings.

    I guess I interpretted that as more part of his "presentation" as in I see his delight in killing Jack again and again and looking forward to this as "fake". I think he loves killing people yes, but I'm willing to bet he just locked Jack up in the boiler room and forgot about him for the year, with the exception of bringing him back on deck for monumental events such as the burning of Japan.
    He explicitly mentioned killing him over and over again. One can order and watch blowing up Japan and torture the guy you have locked up in the boiler room later that night.

    But Se-HA types aren't the only ones who can torture, surely.
    No, but unhealthy Se-ego and Se-HA types would be most inclined to do it. That's the question - what is most likely.

    yes but the doctor deliberately made his screw driver so it can't actually kill people (it's an intentional choice). He's even said this in at least one episode. I see no praticality difference. The Doctor's screwdriver performs the practical functions he wants it to (so does the master's). So I just see this as not being a point at all in this (it's irrelevant). The only thing I thought was significant about the Master's screwdriver is he had to make a big deal about his to impress upon the doctor how it's so much more awesome (because it's all a part of the childish antics against the doctor). As far as evil villains go the master is terribly cutesy about it and puts on facades of cheeriness.
    Correct, and this shows the Doctor's Fi blocked with Ne - he forsakes practicality for the sake of moral righteousness. The Master, on the other hand, does not - and using both Fe and Se, tries to show the Doctor that his practical weapon is so much better.

    And again, additionally, I would not say that Simm's Master's cheeriness is "fake" - having been inside a mental institution before, I can safely say that many sadists feel genuine elation and delight at their sadistic exploits.
    2-subtype system: IEI-Fe
    8-subtype system: D-IEI-Fe
    16-subtype system: IEI-ESE

    IEI-Fe 2w3 > p6w5 > 8w7 sx/so

    "He who has felt the deepest grief is best able to experience supreme happiness. We must have felt what it is to die, that we may appreciate the enjoyments of living." - Edmond Dantes (The Count of Monte Cristo, Alexandre Dumas père)

  11. #11
    The Iniquitous inumbra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    TIM
    954
    Posts
    5,989
    Mentioned
    70 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CloudCuckooLander View Post
    Yes, but it's also a matter of what's most likely - based on his actions and behavior, as well as his intertype relations, the character is most likely to be an ESI with his near-pacifism coming from his Fi-base.
    I'm just saying I haven't decided, that I see a lot of conflicting things and I'm leaving it hanging in the air in my mind (you of course can do what you like).

    I wouldn't say that glee was fake - he seemed genuinely overjoyed (and frankly, turned on) by fucking with Martha's head, probably as a result of his sadism. The way he behaved around Lucy certainly was though, but it struck me as an example of Fe emotional pandering and manipulation. He wasn't manipulating her based on logic, but rather based on her feelings.
    I wasn't trying to say the glee itself is fake. But what I was trying to say is that it's more about the presentation. What I see is fake is that he's always putting on a show; a spector. So yes he made a big deal about killing Jack over and over and I'm sure the prospect made him feel quite elated, but I rather doubt he actually spent a lot of time that year visiting Jack in the boiler room and experimenting with different ways to kill him. I just don't see it as likely. The master's moods are whimsical and changing and there's a focus on expressing a lot of surface level feelings and making a big show of things (I don't see it as sincere for the most part even if I agree that yes he gets a kick out being sadistic and enjoys people's pain).

    Also I mean he could be far more sadistic. It's not like watching the movie Saw or something. He didn't set foot on earth that entire year with the exception of getting martha when he could have chosen to go down and watch the slaughter... he could have also chosen to watch the slaughter of mrs. rook but instead he ran from the room making over-the-top expressions of horror (probably as a way of mocking lucy's honest horror). But still i don't see him as a sort of grusome sadist who really wants to watch people bleeding everywhere with their limbs missing. I think he likes things clean, tidy, efficient, ordered and to kill efficiently with his laser screwdriver. Also it's conceivable that Jack would be a problem so he might have to kill him again when he becomes a problem (although Jack was apparently fairly well secured in the boiler room to prevent this, underestimating his strength of course). anyway i don't see the character as a physical torturer or a fan of things that are messy and grusome so much. (of course the show has to be viewable for yonger audiences, so no villain in it can be)

    Correct, and this shows the Doctor's Fi blocked with Ne - he forsakes practicality for the sake of moral righteousness. The Master, on the other hand, does not - and using both Fe and Se, tries to show the Doctor that his practical weapon is so much better.
    I think we're bound to disagree. I definitely see the 10th doctor as NeTi.

  12. #12
    Dance Magic Dance CloudCuckooLander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    154
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I wasn't trying to say the glee itself is fake. But what I was trying to say is that it's more about the presentation. What I see is fake is that he's always putting on a show; a spector. So yes he made a big deal about killing Jack over and over and I'm sure the prospect made him feel quite elated, but I rather doubt he actually spent a lot of time that year visiting Jack in the boiler room and experimenting with different ways to kill him. I just don't see it as likely. The master's moods are whimsical and changing and there's a focus on expressing a lot of surface level feelings and making a big show of things (I don't see it as sincere for the most part even if I agree that yes he gets a kick out being sadistic and enjoys people's pain).
    You just described Fe-base performer instinct. EIEs are called "The Actor" for a reason.

    And why would torturing Jack not be likely? He is a sadist who gets off on torturing people. He kills 1/10 of the Earth's population for kicks. Jack can't permanently die. Put two and two together, and you get the perfect punching bag for a twisted sociopath.
    2-subtype system: IEI-Fe
    8-subtype system: D-IEI-Fe
    16-subtype system: IEI-ESE

    IEI-Fe 2w3 > p6w5 > 8w7 sx/so

    "He who has felt the deepest grief is best able to experience supreme happiness. We must have felt what it is to die, that we may appreciate the enjoyments of living." - Edmond Dantes (The Count of Monte Cristo, Alexandre Dumas père)

  13. #13
    The Iniquitous inumbra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    TIM
    954
    Posts
    5,989
    Mentioned
    70 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CloudCuckooLander View Post
    And why would torturing Jack not be likely? He is a sadist who gets off on torturing people. He kills 1/10 of the Earth's population for kicks. Jack can't permanently die. Put two and two together, and you get the perfect punching bag for a twisted sociopath.
    I was adding onto my post while you were replying and it may have covered a bit of this. (with the earth's populations though he's eventually going to kill all of them after he's done using them for slave labor, at least i think... killing 1/10 in the beginning probably helped secure his dominion... it destroyed the infrastructure and their chances of organizing effective resistance)

  14. #14
    Dance Magic Dance CloudCuckooLander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    154
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I was adding onto my post while you were replying and it may have covered a bit of this. (with the earth's populations though he's eventually going to kill all of them after he's done using them for slave labor, at least i think... killing 1/10 in the beginning probably helped secure his dominion... it destroyed the infrastructure and their chances of organizing effective resistance)
    I fail to see how that covers anything. Rather, it merely adds to his sadism - killing them for literally no reason when he could export them to other planets he intends on conquering (his stated goal was to use the Toclafane to wage war on the rest of the galaxy) for use as slave labor there as well.
    2-subtype system: IEI-Fe
    8-subtype system: D-IEI-Fe
    16-subtype system: IEI-ESE

    IEI-Fe 2w3 > p6w5 > 8w7 sx/so

    "He who has felt the deepest grief is best able to experience supreme happiness. We must have felt what it is to die, that we may appreciate the enjoyments of living." - Edmond Dantes (The Count of Monte Cristo, Alexandre Dumas père)

  15. #15
    Landlord of the Dog and Duck Subteigh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    EII-Ne Sp/So
    Posts
    14,931
    Mentioned
    243 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    I had thought EII for Sam, SLE for Gene, and SEI for Annie (though less set on that).

    I think it's quite obvious that Sam regularly acts based on his modern knowledge of "past" events, and is keen to do things the modern way, in the past - any immediacy from him is based on his "certainity" of how the future is going to turn out, and based on his belief that the modern ways are the best.

    (I think that Alex from Ashes To Ashes is probably an IEI by comparison - and yet they are obviously very similar)

  16. #16
    The Iniquitous inumbra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    TIM
    954
    Posts
    5,989
    Mentioned
    70 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean View Post
    I had thought EII for Sam, SLE for Gene, and SEI for Annie (though less set on that).
    something like SEI for Annie is one of my "nagging doubts" about seeing her as EII.

  17. #17
    Bananas are good. Aleksei's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    The Rift
    TIM
    C-EIE, 7-4-8 sx/sp
    Posts
    1,632
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean View Post
    I had thought EII for Sam, SLE for Gene, and SEI for Annie (though less set on that).

    I think it's quite obvious that Sam regularly acts based on his modern knowledge of "past" events, and is keen to do things the modern way, in the past - any immediacy from him is based on his "certainity" of how the future is going to turn out, and based on his belief that the modern ways are the best.
    But then that doesn't really work if he already knows what the modern ways are, does it? It's obvious they're more efficient. Strikes me as role Ti rather than Ne.

    Besides, I think EII is out of the question for a simple reason: EIIs are meek. If Sam had been that mountain of a man we call Gene's conflictor, he would not have lasted a day under his command. Gene respects Sam, because Sam for all his PC faggotry has balls. He can even throw his weight around a little, push Gene -- as CCLander mention, boss his own very domineering boss around. that's supervision right there.
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

  18. #18
    The Iniquitous inumbra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    TIM
    954
    Posts
    5,989
    Mentioned
    70 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Besides, I think EII is out of the question for a simple reason: EIIs are meek. If Sam had been that mountain of a man we call Gene's conflictor, he would not have lasted a day under his command.
    see, on this, i would say not necessarily. I would say that EII can be very uncompromising on what they believe is right to the extent of being pretty "forceful" about it if it's important enough to them (and in Sam's job everything is very important since people's lives may hang in the balance and so on). I mean is there some law out there that EIIs have to be pansies (especially when not short on testosterone)?

    Gene respects Sam, because Sam for all his PC faggotry has balls. He can even throw his weight around a little, push Gene -- as CCLander mention, boss his own very domineering boss around. that's supervision right there.
    yeah i can definitely see this and it's another of my considerations.

    Edit: anyway i feel very torn about all of this. although it hasn't been re-opened with this i can also stumble upon my doubts of sam's character even being Fi leading. if only i had the show available i could watch it again.
    Last edited by inumbra; 11-21-2010 at 10:33 PM.

  19. #19
    The Iniquitous inumbra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    TIM
    954
    Posts
    5,989
    Mentioned
    70 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean View Post
    (I think that Alex from Ashes To Ashes is probably an IEI
    i've seen most of this show now and i totally agree with alex as IEI (happy because of "total" agreement and not feeling "well maybe she isn't... maybe...")

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •