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Thread: My type (aka why I am not ILE you tossers)

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    Default My type (aka why I am not ILE you tossers)

    Ok, my type has clogged other threads sufficiently for one day I'd say. As such I'd like to move all discussion on it to its own thread. Anyway, some reasons I presented already for EIE:

    1) I'm very emotional.
    2) I value Fe and Ti above anything else, so it's either this or LII (given that my Sensing elements both suck). Basically, I'm Merry as fuck. I am additionally very adept at producing an Fe-atmosphere. I don't identify with the Spock-like demeanor I've seen actual LIIs display.
    3) Of the two, I identify more as Aristocratic than as Democratic. I tend to judge people as part of a group before I do as individuals, and I tend to look down on people I consider inferior to myself. Alphas make an effort to get along with everybody.
    4) It fits my intertype relations to perfection.
    5) While both my Fe and Ti are very well-developed (making it difficult to pin a type on me -- most people here think I'm Ti-ego because a debate isn't a kind of setting where I'm likely to deploy Fe), my Ti developed later. My first posts on a political forum I used to post in before coming here feature me using a lot of Ti, but in an embarrassingly sloppy manner, which would be fit of either me being an idiot (which I'm not -- I have an IQ in the low 140s), or my Ti being very underdeveloped (as suggestive functions usually are).
    6) Te-role and Si-PoLR. Si: I stay up for days because I wanna see what I can do next, often neglect to eat if I'm doing something exciting enough (Right now I haven't eaten anything since 8 last night -- I should probably eat but I don't wanna get up from here), have zero sense of aesthetics. Te: I try to pretend to be efficient and organized and in control, but it never works out properly. I obsessively keep track of time so I can finish whatever I have to do on time, but I get sidetracked by other more interesting shit and I never get anything done on time. And so on.
    7) The Male EIE description fits me to the T, according to my friends
    Fe: I smile easily and laugh a lot, I crack jokes all the time in almost any situation and have trouble remaining serious. I'm extremely casual, always have a "hey dude what's up" attitude, even places where I'm supposed to remain serious (like at work). When I'm bored I enjoy fucking with people for sheer lulz. I tend towards exaggeration when it comes to projecting emotions (I never say something was good, unless it was so-so... I say it was GREAT, it was AWESOME, it was THE BEST, or if it was bad it was HORRIBLE, it SUCKED, it was AWFUL). I'm good at acting/simulating emotion, and I love performing.

    Ni: I'm always somewhat uncertain I made the right choice about anything, I like pondering the meaning of things and situations, and how events will unfold -- as such, I'm very into politics. I also have a bit of an alarmist bent, which comes out, again, in political debates.

    "I'm very emotional" essentially all but rules out the other choice (LII), as LIIs are very restrained -- they like a loose Fe atmosphere, but they need the help of EXFj's to loosen up.
    And some further arguments:

    - I strongly identify with manipulative Ni-creative, as illustrated in this thread. I tend to forecast how people will act and react and guide them into doing what I want them to do. In forums this manifests in me tricking people into arguing with each other so I can learn from the argument about a subject that holds my interest. On the subject of my type, particularly, I've done it twice already: Once to figure out my MBTI type, and once to figure out my Socionics type.

    - I VI as EIE almost perfectly (I confirmed it with third parties), per this barely understandable but otherwise very good definition). I have a sad, melancholic look in my eyes, which turn into puppy eyes when I smile (which is why I got VI'd SEI here -- I have that look when I'm happy, SEIs have it all the time), but at the same time a manic, obsessive gleam. I'm uncoordinated. I make an effort to contain my emotions and appear impassible (Ti-suggestive), but utterly fail at it -- whenever I'm angry or sad or what have you, it leaks out. My fashion style is utterly disjointed (my favorite enesemble are jeans, a button-down shirt, suit jacket and a tie, with the top button unbuttoned), and I enjoy somber colors. I have a strongly elitist streak to my personality, generally looking down on people I consider less intelligent than me. I have some isolated VI traits from other types such as ILE (fidgeting with an object, sometimes breaking it in the process, gesticulating with my hands when I speak), SLE (Wiggle on the spot when forced to stand still) and LIE (eyes dart every which way, can't keep them fixed on one spot), but the great bulk of my body language says EIE.

    - Reading type descriptions from Socionics.com, there are entire passages of the ILE description that don't fit me, starting with the whole emotional distance stuff (ruling out Fi-PoLR), but most particularly this:
    ENTps are interested in and talk about everything that is new and unusual even if it is not in their main field of knowledge. It is as if they are magnetised by all brand new theories and are fascinated by all phenomena that can not be explained with logic or reason, for example: ESP, telekinesis and UFO's. They cannot logically explain their ideas as they are always intuitive and vague. Most people cannot fully comprehend their concepts, they simply believe or do not believe.
    This... not me. My attitude is more along the lines of, "can't explain it? Fuck it."

    EDIT- Oh, and I have Pathetic Se. Quite literally... I actually crave being rich and powerful, yet so far, at 22 years of age, I'm broke, unemployed and in debt.
    Last edited by Aleksei; 11-21-2010 at 11:29 AM.
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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    Actually the problem with those is that they're outdated. UFO's/ESP and the like have already been debunked enough into ridicule and in the descriptions should be replaced with relatively new ideas like string theory etc.

    I wouldn't skip over the ENTj descriptions either. In fact I'd read all 16 descriptions from every socionics website you can find to improve how you type yourself and others.
    ILI (FINAL ANSWER)

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    fwiw, number 6 can just as easily apply to dominants as it dose to PoLR's
    EII INFj
    Forum status: retired

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    Bananas are good. Aleksei's Avatar
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    That's why I tend to synthesize function definitions into types rather than going by descriptions... finding good descriptions appears to be even harder for this system than it is for MBTI.

    Deltas, I find, are shitty typers in general.
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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    You keep saying your Ti is very strong, how do you develop the weakest function in your psyche?

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    Imitation, practice, simulating it by using a memorized standard of what it's supposed to be like (which in MBTI is Si, but in Socionics appears to be more Ni).
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Imitation, practice, simulating it by using a memorized standard of what it's supposed to be like (which in MBTI is Si, but in Socionics appears to be more Ni).
    OK it won't be strong then.

    EDIT- Oh, and I have Pathetic Se. Quite literally... I actually crave being rich and powerful, yet so far, at 22 years of age, I'm broke, unemployed and in debt.
    I think you should spend less time worrying about your type and more time meeting people who make money and copy them. Socionics just seems like mental masturbation when your busy, so take time away from this forum-your type doesn't matter that much, convincing people on an internet what it is matters even less, and this is coming from someone who might be your dual, conflictor or super ego or something else.

    Post here when you have time, not to fill time when you have too much of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    Those passages aren't very good. I think they are based more on theory than reality. For example, I think ILEs would probably make fun of somebody talking about ghosts, UFOs and things like that, if serious, and not as part of a dramatic Ne-joke. EIEs, ime, are far more likely to talk about and believe in "mysterious" stuff than ILEs.

    No idea what type you are, though.
    Agreed. I've known IEEs who are interested in tarot cards, other Ni types who aren't. Point being that Ne and Ni types might or might not be interested in paranormal, aliens etc, it really depends on underlying mechanisms I can't be bothered explaining or trying to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Words View Post
    OK it won't be strong then.
    It appears strong enough... Four years ago I was making all these shitty, emotionally charged dogmatic statements and calling them arguments. Nowadays my Superid Ti is nigh-indistinguishable from real Ti (with some slip-ups... like in the Ti test thread where I tried using to solve a problem and failed spectacularly ).
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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    Bananas are good. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Okay so that point wasn't valid. Still leaves the rest of my OP, including how I goddamn VI as an EIE.
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    It appears strong enough... Four years ago I was making all these shitty, emotionally charged dogmatic statements and calling them arguments. Nowadays my Superid Ti is nigh-indistinguishable from real Ti (with some slip-ups... like in the Ti test thread where I tried using to solve a problem and failed spectacularly ).
    It's ok I'm not saying your stupid. To my way of thinking, if you've had to develop it then it's not strong. Compare to my F, I used to offend a lot of people in the past without even realising. I learned from watching and speaking to other people who were naturally good with people, both Fi and Fe types (which I was doing before I learned about socionics). Now I can be reasonably diplomatic or smile in the right places, but it's stuff I've learned, my natural aptitude is to be logical. Perhaps the reverse is true for you with F and T. I'd consider this to decide if you are F or T.

    ...but, my F isn't strong, I've just learned a bunch of stuff to interact with people, I can't create moods with people the way others can who are F. I doubt you'd ever be sure of creating new laws, systems or categories of viewing the world if your F and ENFj. Probably the acid test for you to decide....and I don't mean laws or systems etc within socionics, all thats already there and it's fed to us, more so simple everyday life stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Deltas, I find, are shitty typers in general.
    lol u mad

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Okay so that point wasn't valid. Still leaves the rest of my OP, including how I goddamn VI as an EIE.
    Pics plz

    You really should talk to Gulanzon, I think you'll find that you two are very similar in a lot of ways.
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

    http://forum.socionix.com/
    It's pretty cool

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    Photos in chronological order. I deliberately included a few where I'm in the background and not posing. Cartoon pic is a South Park sketch I made of myself, and while obviously it doesn't work for facial typing, it's indicative of my fashion taste.

    I probably should talk to Gulanzon... though if he's so much like me then he might as easily be another Beta NF. Does he have an elitist attitude?

    Oh, I also talk to myself, even if there are people around. I read that's something EIEs do...
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    billions of photos
    Oh yeah, I remember seeing you before. Definitely Ne-ENTp.

    I probably should talk to Gulanzon... though if he's so much like me then he might as easily be another Beta NF. Does he have an elitist attitude?
    And he'll probably call you ISFp, and you two will just try to convince each other that you're right and you'll just end up angry at each other. Enjoy!
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

    http://forum.socionix.com/
    It's pretty cool

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    Would an Si-base have just been up for the past 28 hours (without eating for the past 14, mind)?

    But anyway, does this dude post here? Socionix? Introduce me
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    Oh yeah, I remember seeing you before. Definitely Ne-ENTp.
    Bah, you see everywhere. What's your reasoning?

    EDIT ran a search for Gulanzon in both forums. Turned up zip. Who is this Gulanzon dude?
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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    I'm Gulanzon.

    EDIT

    And I think you're EIE. Galen is just convinced I'm ILE, for reasons I have never been able to clarify.

    I believe the only people who still cling to ILE are the Ashtonites and Niffweed.

    MORE EDIT

    I'd like to hear how Aleksei and I are similar. Legitimate curiosity.

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    I don't do VI, but I don't need it to tell you're likely ENTp. Your arguments for EIE seem more like an image you're trying to create of yourself, how you'd like others to see you - and moreover, one that doesn't succeed at depicting an EIE. Additionally, you seem to write - and possibly think - in terms of being good at something rather than focusing on some information. It doesn't matter if your arguments are emotional or crackpotish or downright wrong, but whether you think in terms of putting things into explicit static systems or not.

    FWIW I think you're a static type (and so is probably KeroZen).

    I'm uncoordinated. I make an effort to contain my emotions and appear impassible (Ti-suggestive), but utterly fail at it -- whenever I'm angry or sad or what have you, it leaks out. My fashion style is utterly disjointed (my favorite enesemble are jeans, a button-down shirt, suit jacket and a tie, with the top button unbuttoned), and I enjoy somber colors. I have a strongly elitist streak to my personality, generally looking down on people I consider less intelligent than me.
    All arguments for ILE and against EIE, if at all type related (like, fashion is disputable, but beta NFs tend to be stylish).


    @ Gul & Gal - I suppose it would be too much to ask you to put aside your argument when typing third parties?

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    Simple. He sees Ne in his own fucking shadow.
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Bah, you see everywhere. What's your reasoning?
    Your spontaneous sort of "random" humor that I see present in tinychat is very much an Alpha sort of humor. I wouldn't imagine a beta NF, even jokingly, pose the question "are jelly beans EVIL?" because they would view questions like those as wastes of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanks Arthur View Post
    And I think you're EIE. Galen is just convinced I'm ILE, for reasons I have never been able to clarify.

    I believe the only people who still cling to ILE are the Ashtonites and Niffweed.
    Except that I've explained my reasonings many times? And it's not a "cling to" like a sign of desperation, it's a reasoning grounded in what I consider to be substantive proof.

    Have you even heard Aleksei speak? His mannerisms, his intonations, his style of humor, it's like a copy of you.
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

    http://forum.socionix.com/
    It's pretty cool

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    All arguments for ILE and against EIE, if at all type related (like, fashion is disputable, but beta NFs tend to be stylish).
    Really?

    Ownership rights to this sotsiotipu easiest determined in the face and demeanour. First contrast with the sad, tomnye eyes. If further strengthened with the ethical component, the figure is visible glamour obsession issuing a strong internal emotional passions. The piece of EIE most Thin, thin arms and legs. Gait, the more rapid, more strenuous expressed emotions. Briefing ethical option are very yurkie, mobile. In doing so, they are poor coordination of movements, may even give the impression that they are deliberately "vydelyvayutsya." One of the most salient details of the person - a large, more direct and acute nose. Kurnosye amongst the sotsiotipa we have not met any time. For EIE is a Majesty in the face, even arrogance. This impression was created by the fact that the head keeps high opinion sent over the head of a man.

    [...]

    Clothing EIE often disharmonious. Typically, badly selects toiletries to each other. Jewelry can not be combined with the general style of clothing. Often present a single piece, which is striking and not fit in with the external image as a whole. But taken alone, it looks quite normal. Knowing this, EIE strictly related to his appearance and does not like when appraised.
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    I don't do VI, but I don't need it to tell you're likely ENTp. Your arguments for EIE seem more like an image you're trying to create of yourself, how you'd like others to see you - and moreover, one that doesn't succeed at depicting an EIE. Additionally, you seem to write - and possibly think - in terms of being good at something rather than focusing on some information. It doesn't matter if your arguments are emotional or crackpotish or downright wrong, but whether you think in terms of putting things into explicit static systems or not.
    This. Both Aleksei and Gulanzon's uses of Fe feel too forced for them to be Fe egos. Gilly sorta falls into this same dilemma as well. It's also kinda interesting that all three of the aforementioned people get very indignant when people say that they're ENTp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    type descriptions
    Don't put too much stock in type descriptions because they will only describe a character and not a real person.
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

    http://forum.socionix.com/
    It's pretty cool

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    Your spontaneous sort of "random" humor that I see present in tinychat is very much an Alpha sort of humor. I wouldn't imagine a beta NF, even jokingly, pose the question "are jelly beans EVIL?" because they would view questions like those as wastes of time.
    It's deliberate, I'm posing those questions to get a laugh. And I really think anyway that randomness is more of a Merry thing rather than . Otherwise you'd be able to follow it... IEI descriptions in particular make IEIs seem notorious for their randomness, and my IEI-Fe best friend indeed makes random interjections like that all the damn time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    Don't put too much stock in type descriptions because they will only describe a character and not a real person.
    They describe an archetype. Determination of type is based on whether one fits that archetype or not, as type itself is an abstraction.
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    It's deliberate, I'm posing those questions to get a laugh. And I really think anyway that randomness is more of a Merry thing rather than . Otherwise you'd be able to follow it... IEI descriptions in particular make IEIs seem notorious for their randomness, and my IEI-Fe best friend indeed makes random interjections like that all the damn time.
    I say things to get laughs too. / is just as capable of going the "random" route, but in Alpha's case the randomness is supplemented with and not necessarily driven by it. In your case I'd call your use of more a supplement to the initial randomness.

    Also I haven't known a INFp to be "random" in the same sense I see you as being "random". It depends on whether or not you're typing those people correctly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    They describe an archetype. Determination of type is based on whether one fits that archetype or not, as type itself is an abstraction.
    That is not how socionics works. Valued functions and temperament determine type, not descriptions. If type descriptions were all we needed then I'd still be INFj.
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

    http://forum.socionix.com/
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanks Arthur View Post
    I'm Gulanzon.
    Kay, Galen is a tard. I don't see the resemblance.
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Kay, Galen is a tard. I don't see the resemblance.
    I do, as do a couple of other people from what I can see. Listen to him speak and watch him on camera.

    Why do people dislike me for saying that their type is wrong? There's no need to get indignant about it, you're not supposed to use your type to determine your self-identity. I'm just looking for a good discussion, not an outlet for attack.
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

    http://forum.socionix.com/
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    I say things to get laughs too. / is just as capable of going the "random" route, but in Alpha's case the randomness is supplemented with and not necessarily driven by it. In your case I'd call your use of more a supplement to the initial randomness.
    But the point is the randomness is constructed -- I'm not really spontaneous like an EP would be. I just like getting laughs.

    And anyway then how do you account for the fact I completely ignore Si and have an elitist Beta attitude?
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    But the point is the randomness is constructed -- I'm not really spontaneous like an EP would be. I just like getting laughs.
    My 'randomness' is pretty constructed too. I enjoy getting laughs every now and then too. Besides I'm Ep and I'm not particularly spontaneous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    And anyway then how do you account for the fact I completely ignore Si and have an elitist Beta attitude?
    Do you? I'm not sure about that. How are you defining Si?
    It's interesting how Fe/Ti valuers like to provide me with facts that they have already preordained to be true in order to make my judgments instead of asking me for my opinion on the proposed fact itself. It's like the thought process is "let's assume this is a fact" when all I want to do is verify whether or not something really is a fact.
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

    http://forum.socionix.com/
    It's pretty cool

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    Si: Internalized sensations, sensory pleasure and experience, internal states, physical well-being. Si types know how to take care of themselves and others physically, enjoy relaxation, and indulge in the finer points of sensory pleasure, aesthetics and the like.

    Me, I stay up for days at a time, because I don't wanna go to bed because there's so much interesting stuff to do. Forget to eat, shower, shave... all wastes of time. I have zero concern for aesthetics, and for all I care I could live on Ramen noodles. I don't eat healthy, and I fluctuate between undereating and overeating. In short, I just plain don't take care of myself. I have trouble with it.

    I have an undeniably elitist attitude though. As you might have noticed, I look down on people I consider intellectually inferior.
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Si: Internalized sensations, sensory pleasure and experience, internal states, physical well-being. Si types know how to take care of themselves and others physically, enjoy relaxation, and indulge in the finer points of sensory pleasure, aesthetics and the like.
    I've told a similar description of Si to my ESFj aunt and she didn't particularly identify with it. However, when I connected the idea of Si to "homeostasis" it immediately clicked for her. Take a look at this and see what you think:
    Homeostasis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Besides, even Si PoLRs understand how to "enjoy relaxation" and take care of themselves physically.
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

    http://forum.socionix.com/
    It's pretty cool

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    This. Both Aleksei and Gulanzon's uses of Fe feel too forced for them to be Fe egos. Gilly sorta falls into this same dilemma as well. It's also kinda interesting that all three of the aforementioned people get very indignant when people say that they're ENTp.
    In my case because it's a tired, stale argument that grossly misrepresents and blatantly denies reality and contorts a perfectly sound, useful system to support an indefensible position. I've been experiencing the exact same indignation at the recent wave on these forums of creationists and people who misuse religion for their own myopic and ill-considered ends for exactly the same reason.

    It's also irritating that no matter how sound of an argument I present it is ALWAYS met with "Na ur rong lol". Do you understand how vexing that is? It has nothing to do with the ILE typing in specific, it's a much broader raw nerve (and one made extra irritable by how utterly and unrelentingly aggressive some of the people insisting my self-typing have been, namely thePirate and consentingadult, two individuals who have more than earned my utter and unshakeable lack of regard).*

    Relevant xkcd comic:



    *Another reason I get pissed off is when people seem either wilfully or obliviously completely right fucking stupid. It's the definition of projection. I try so hard to not be a dumbass that it's utterly offensive when I see other people just blithely doing things I consider the height of idiocy. I'm sorry I lash out at you so angrily, Galen. To me, and I'm not really sure how to say this without offending you, but you're like a walking exhibit of every mental mistake I would be mortified to openly commit. You yourself are a nice guy, and I like you, but it just seriously pushes my buttons when I read things like your exceptional double-standards of skepticism, proudly put on parade in an above post^.

    Anyway, saying my Fe is forced doesn't hold up. Both Rubicon and an ILE friend of me have called my emotional displays "relaxing". Other people have called me "relaxing" in my own right, without pinpointing it to any particular element (due to socionics infamiliarity).

    Just because you think it's forced doesn't mean it's weak. It means... hey! I'm putting on a show! That sounds rather "Creative", does it not? I act silly/extravagant as a form of play, and it's exactly the same as any of my other Fe displays, which can all be more subtle. Relevant quote:

    "When someone is upset, you take it upon yourself to make them happy, through jokes and hugs and the like."

    Definition of SiFe: Fe in service of Si. In plain English: influencing other's emotions in service of relaxation.

    There's also the fact to consider that I am very rarely on stickam, only venturing on there when I'm in an exuberant mood. You cannot characterise me based on that, it's a distorted image (much like how the manic Robin Williams is a distortion of an ESE; he's like an ESE with the saturation turned up way too high).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    Besides, even Si PoLRs understand how to "enjoy relaxation" and take care of themselves physically.
    Ugh, typical delta. Everybody can do fucking everything.
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    I've told a similar description of Si to my ESFj aunt and she didn't particularly identify with it. However, when I connected the idea of Si to "homeostasis" it immediately clicked for her. Take a look at this and see what you think:
    Homeostasis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Yeah, doesn't sound like me.
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanks Arthur View Post
    In my case because it's a tired, stale argument that grossly misrepresents and blatantly denies reality and contorts a perfectly sound, useful system to support an indefensible position. I've been experiencing the exact same indignation at the recent wave on these forums of creationists and people who misuse religion for their own myopic and ill-considered ends for exactly the same reason.
    I'm just saying it how I see it. I'm sorry if this is offensive to you, but it's how you come across to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanks Arthur View Post
    It's also irritating that no matter how sound of an argument I present it is ALWAYS met with "Na ur rong lol". Do you understand how vexing that is?
    Yes, because I'm met with it equally as much as anybody else who disagrees with me, as does everybody else whose views are met with opposition. This is how an argument works, people throw their ideas and views at each other in an attempt to show the other side their points of view, with the secondary attempt of convincing the other side. You can't really be convinced that you're right about something yet still cave in to the other side.


    Anyway, saying my Fe is forced doesn't hold up. Both Rubicon and an ILE friend of me have called my emotional displays "relaxing". Other people have called me "relaxing" in my own right, without pinpointing it to any particular element (due to socionics infamiliarity).

    Just because you think it's forced doesn't mean it's weak. It means... hey! I'm putting on a show! That sounds rather "Creative", does it not? I act silly/extravagant as a form of play, and it's exactly the same as any of my other Fe displays, which can all be more subtle. Relevant quote:

    "When someone is upset, you take it upon yourself to make them happy, through jokes and hugs and the like."

    Definition of SiFe: Fe in service of Si. In plain English: influencing other's emotions in service of relaxation.
    This just makes you a nice and friendly person. ENTps can be friendly in that same manner, especially with E9 in the mix.

    There's also the fact to consider that I am very rarely on stickam, only venturing on there when I'm in an exuberant mood. You cannot characterise me based on that, it's a distorted image (much like how the manic Robin Williams is a distortion of an ESE; he's like an ESE with the saturation turned up way too high).
    I've said this time and time again: the person you are on stickam is the exact same person you are in reality. I mean "you" in a plural second person, meaning that everybody on tinychat or stickam or whatever is essentially the same on there as they are off cam. This seems like an inconsolable difference in thought patterns, so it seems like a moot point to try to convince each other that the other side is wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Ugh, typical delta. Everybody can do fucking everything.
    Because they can?
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

    http://forum.socionix.com/
    It's pretty cool

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    Back to an earlier point we'd missed...

    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    Your spontaneous sort of "random" humor that I see present in tinychat is very much an Alpha sort of humor. I wouldn't imagine a beta NF, even jokingly, pose the question "are jelly beans EVIL?" because they would view questions like those as wastes of time.
    I was actually asking for your reasoning on how I VI ILE.
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Back to an earlier point we'd missed...


    I was actually asking how I VI ILE.
    Ah.
    Well you look like other ENTps. You have an openness about you that seems very irrational in nature (rationals come across as much more rigid energy-wise than you do), there's none of the same tension in the eyes/mouth that I see in Ni/Se valuers, and just as a general aura that you project you come across as Alpha.
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

    http://forum.socionix.com/
    It's pretty cool

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    Because they can?
    Nah, not really. It's like Ashton's and your point in tinychat on Ni and forethought (that everybody has it). NO THEY DON'T. The majority of the human population are incapable of planning ahead properly, which is why for example the US has depressingly low savings rates.
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Nah, not really. It's like Ashton's and your point in tinychat on Ni and forethought (that everybody has it). NO THEY DON'T. The majority of the human population are incapable of planning ahead properly, which is why for example the US has depressingly low savings rates.
    Any statistics to back this up?
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

    http://forum.socionix.com/
    It's pretty cool

  39. #39
    Creepy-male

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    Anyway, sorry, this is not a Gul typing thread, and at this stage I've given up any hope of countering the Ashton dogma that me = ILE. I can only ask you don't use my as an ILE example, and we can avoid any conflict. Easy, right?

    Back to you, Aleksei. My only really convincing observation one way or another is that you have a tendency to bluff your certainty quite a bit. This is something I've heard others lamenting the existence of in EIEs over and over again, and attitude of "fake it till you make it"; substituting false, bold confidence for any kind of truth or accuracy. Judging by the fact that you've not returned in a hurry to either thread where I've called you out on this, I assume that's a Supervisor hit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanks Arthur View Post
    Anyway, sorry, this is not a Gul typing thread, and at this stage I've given up any hope of countering the Ashton dogma that me = ILE. I can only ask you don't use my as an ILE example, and we can avoid any conflict. Easy, right?
    I can do that. But even outside of whatever types you may be, I still think you and Aleksei are pretty similar.
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

    http://forum.socionix.com/
    It's pretty cool

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