SLEs/ESTps needing relationships to be defined for them

[redbaron]

they often adopt the attitude of: "if you tell me what this relationship is, I'll try to act accordingly" and then proceed to follow your lead. It's really funny and cute.

for example, if I openly proclaim that we're friends (whether with a male or female), they suddenly start acting like one. But if I drift off and don't show them anything one way or the other, they're kind of lost and don't know what to do. It's like they'll assume you don't want them unless you show interest and define it for them with creative Fe. Even SLE women are like this!

They also don't usually SAY they're sorry, but they will SHOW that they're sorry by chatting you up and being more playful than usual and initiating contact. It's their way of making sure things are okay. If they think they've hurt you, and they care about you, they genuinely feel bad about it but sometimes don't realize the damage they did until after it's over. I think this pains them a bit but they're so glad to be easily forgiven, as most IEIs are able to do.

I can see why these dual relations can be difficult to start because often, the SLE will charge in quickly and the IEI will stand back, unsure. SLEs are fast and action-oriented (no brakes) whereas IEIs (can be) more thoughtful and reticent which can sometimes leave them behind in the dust or leave the SLE questioning what's wrong and why the IEI is being so difficult or unsure of themselves.

of course this has all been said before. but it's interesting to watch it play out among various people I know.

[redbaron]

I find it super super cute, Starfall. I love to hear about it! Your SLE sounds adorable.

I guess I wasn't talking about romantic relationships above, as much as I was just general friendships.

and yeah, I love that song....

[Words]

This makes SLEs seem really simple.

And I think they are, they just need a bit of someone giving them a bit of attention and then they're comfortable enough to express themselves and clown about.

[EyeSeeCold]

They're a bit intimidating though when the HA Fe is activated. At least to my Fe PoLR (I just realized this would go for them also with my HA Fi and their Fi PoLR).

I can only approach them on their own, which is usually rare. Although I think they are loners at heart, .

[redbaron]

Although I think they are loners at heart, .

yeah... that kinda makes me sad though.

[EyeSeeCold]

I guess that's creative Fe's role then. I see them looking "lost" but I'd approach them with conversation rather than cheer.

[redbaron]

I guess that's creative Fe's role then. I see them looking "lost" but I'd approach them with conversation rather than cheer.

cheerful conversation!

[golden]

they often adopt the attitude of: "if you tell me what this relationship is, I'll try to act accordingly" and then proceed to follow your lead. It's really funny and cute.

My commentary may be of limited value, because I'm new to duality. My boyfriend appears to be SLE, and there's a second apparent SLE I've been sort of courting. So.

Regarding this, in a way I agree. I'm the one who's supposed to apply definition to the relationship, yes. And to the extent that I cannot, my current guy is a little lost and tortured. Do I think it's funny and cute? Er, not so very much. He tends to exert a lot of pressure on me in this regard; he tries not to, but we keep coming back to it.

for example, if I openly proclaim that we're friends (whether with a male or female), they suddenly start acting like one. But if I drift off and don't show them anything one way or the other, they're kind of lost and don't know what to do. It's like they'll assume you don't want them unless you show interest and define it for them with creative Fe. Even SLE women are like this!

I'm experiencing this sort of. I get a lot of questions about what "we" are doing, what "we" are going to do and be to each other ... he needs a lot of reassurance, and he tends to assume that the relationship is going to go nowhere and be nullified unless I say otherwise, frequently.

They also don't usually SAY they're sorry, but they will SHOW that they're sorry by chatting you up and being more playful than usual and initiating contact. It's their way of making sure things are okay. If they think they've hurt you, and they care about you, they genuinely feel bad about it but sometimes don't realize the damage they did until after it's over. I think this pains them a bit but they're so glad to be easily forgiven, as most IEIs are able to do.

The current man's way of really making things up to me is in fact by being very ridiculous, making fun of me, of everything. He has said in the past that teasing me is his way of showing me he loves me. However, he has no problem telling me he's sorry. He's pretty rough with me emotionally and in other ways sometimes, and he apologizes readily. That said, I have never heard him apologize to anyone else for anything.

The second SLE apologized to me once for being overbearing and harsh and hurtful. He's for sure not inclined to frequently apologize for anything. He knows how he is and has sort of arranged his life so he can be that way.

I would say in the latter guy's case, what he wants is to find someone who can love him with that segment of his personality intact--I mean, it's not like he could change it in a healthy way even if he wanted to, right?

I can see why these dual relations can be difficult to start because often, the SLE will charge in quickly and the IEI will stand back, unsure. SLEs are fast and action-oriented (no brakes) whereas IEIs (can be) more thoughtful and reticent which can sometimes leave them behind in the dust or leave the SLE questioning what's wrong and why the IEI is being so difficult or unsure of themselves.

of course this has all been said before. but it's interesting to watch it play out among various people I know.

Yeah, in both cases, it's sort of like just add water and poof, there's a relationship, and I'm supposed to instantly belong to the guy and keep him assured that I am his and that things will remain that way. And in both cases, I am the one who is dragging my heels. I mean, I also do the "poof" thing, but there's a part of me that lags behind, deciding, pondering, and it's very obvious to SLE no. 1 that I'm doing this, and it makes him a little crazy.

And now he knows about SLE no. 2 and more or less flipped out.

The truth is, he doesn't have nearly as much self-confidence as people would assume based on his behavior, and I knew this about him from the get-go. Same with no. 2, but it plays out differently for him, I think ...

[redbaron]

The truth is, he doesn't have nearly as much self-confidence as people would assume based on his behavior, and I knew this about him from the get-go. Same with no. 2, but it plays out differently for him, I think ...

SLEs are much less self-confident on the inside than they seem on the outside, I've found.

[Blaze]

SLEs are much less self-confident on the inside than they seem on the outside, I've found.

trudat

the inside of an SLE can be a lonely, hopeless place. not that they'd ever tell you.

[EyeSeeCold]

Ahh memories are resurfacing from reading this thread.

I can't believe I was in the same classroom with one IEI male, a SEE female, and a SLE female. Two potential duality pairs that never happened. Of course I went for the SLE over the SEE, the former was more unpredictable and mysterious. The IEI connected a little with the SLE once and I just knew they were perfect for each other, though I got a little jealous. My physics teach teacher told us(SEE/ILI) we had great chemistry. I was like "whaa?" Now I realize what he was talking about. In retrospect, we were good friends to each other.

Don't know where I was going with this..so yeah... SLEs.

[sarinana]

I tried to calm down one SLE with my negativistic Ni cause I see future in shades of grey... He thanked me for the ray of optimism. Now we don't talk.

Edited.
We still have sex tho.

[redbaron]

I tried to calm down one SLE with my negativistic Ni cause I see future in shades of grey... He thanked me for the ray of optimism. Now we don't talk.

Edited.
We still have sex tho.

[JWC3]

I've had the "so what are we" conversation twice in the past month both times my response was "Whatever you say we are, that sounds good to me" cause I really have no clue unless I'm told :s

[redbaron]

I've had the "so what are we" conversation twice in the past month both times my response was "Whatever you say we are, that sounds good to me" cause I really have no clue unless I'm told :s

I believe it! That's funny.

[Beautiful sky]

It's so weird and funny that you guys think that Fi is only about relationships. In fact, Fi in SLE has nothing to do with relationships or relationship PoLR; Fi, with them, has to do with not being able to express their emotions and not allowing certain things that penetrate an Fi valuing person's emotions because they value Fe instead; I want to give an example:

My SLE friend "joked" with me, in a crowd of other individuals, in my community that I went to Starbucks to pick up all the pretty boys...

At first, what he said in a Truthful way penetrated my feelings. To me, it wasn't a joke. He was just using Fe valuing talk to be bluntly truthful and funny, but I took it the wrong way.

Because my sense of self worth is tied to my community and how other individuals view me, it's very hard for me to be put in a light where I may be seen as someone unworthy of "her place in society"; another words, I am very image and appearance conscious. I couldn't use Fe to joke back with him because I concentrate on the outside (Fi) things that impact my inner perception of myself, whereas he doesn't care about what others do, it's about how one feels about their own self that matters (Fe), another words, people can't hurt you unless you let them. Fi types tend to let outside factors hurt them too often and too easily. These are Fi and Fe emotions that get in conflict with one another.

[Beautiful sky]

I've had the "so what are we" conversation twice in the past month both times my response was "Whatever you say we are, that sounds good to me" cause I really have no clue unless I'm told :s

Actually, my SLE friends never ask. They just say that the reason why they know they are BF/GF is because they kiss and hold hands a lot. They never need to ask "so what are we"; they know from their interaction. They know exactly and have exact clue what their relations are. With SLE, the Fi has more to do with feelings then relationships. Actually, LSE need to be told what they are in order to know because they are missing that function.

[redbaron]

those are some good points, Maritsa.

[silverchris9]

[QUOTE=Maritsa33;717476
Because my sense of self worth is tied to my community and how other individuals view me, it's very hard for me to be put in a light where I may be seen as someone unworthy of "her place in society"; another words, I am very image and appearance conscious. I couldn't use Fe to joke back with him because I concentrate on the outside (Fi) things that impact my inner perception of myself, whereas he doesn't care about what others do, it's about how one feels about their own self that matters (Fe), another words, people can't hurt you unless you let them. Fi types tend to let outside factors hurt them too often and too easily. These are Fi and Fe emotions that get in conflict with one another.[/QUOTE]

Huh. True. I've observed that with Fe vs. Fi as well.

[golden]

My SLE friend "joked" with me, in a crowd of other individuals, in my community that I went to Starbucks to pick up all the pretty boys...

At first, what he said in a Truthful way penetrated my feelings. To me, it wasn't a joke. He was just using Fe valuing talk to be bluntly truthful and funny, but I took it the wrong way.

Because my sense of self worth is tied to my community and how other individuals view me, it's very hard for me to be put in a light where I may be seen as someone unworthy of "her place in society"; another words, I am very image and appearance conscious. I couldn't use Fe to joke back with him because I concentrate on the outside (Fi) things that impact my inner perception of myself, whereas he doesn't care about what others do, it's about how one feels about their own self that matters (Fe), another words, people can't hurt you unless you let them. Fi types tend to let outside factors hurt them too often and too easily. These are Fi and Fe emotions that get in conflict with one another.

But I thought an SLE would never do something like this ...

[golden]

Actually, my SLE friends never ask. They just say that the reason why they know they are BF/GF is because they kiss and hold hands a lot. They never need to ask "so what are we"; they know from their interaction. They know exactly and have exact clue what their relations are. With SLE, the Fi has more to do with feelings then relationships. Actually, LSE need to be told what they are in order to know because they are missing that function.

Apologies if I seem contrary here, but my experience with LSEs is not too much like this. I think that it may simply be the case that you and I would experience an LSE quite differently owing to our respective--completely different--ways of interacting with them.

[Beautiful sky]

Apologies if I seem contrary here, but my experience with LSEs is not too much like this. I think that it may simply be the case that you and I would experience an LSE quite differently owing to our respective--completely different--ways of interacting with them.

You're right, I made a mistake...it is in regards to SLE.

But I thought an SLE would never do something like this ...

Yup, this one he actually did do, but he didn't mean to be mean, just like you said, he expected me to respond with Fe, instead I got emotionally hurt.

[redbaron]

Yup, this one he actually did do, but he didn't mean to be mean, just like you said, he expected me to respond with Fe, instead I got emotionally hurt.

If someone joked with me like that, I'd just joke back and laugh. I might try to turn it around on them. Like say "yeah and where do YOU go to pick up YOUR pretty boys?" or something. heh. So... yeah.

[Beautiful sky]

If someone joked with me like that, I'd just joke back and laugh. I might try to turn it around on them. Like say "yeah and where do YOU go to pick up YOUR pretty boys?" or something. heh. So... yeah.

That's exactly what my ESE cousin's reaction to my SLE friend was and both of them observed me shouting back "No I don't; you're both embarrassing me by saying that's why I come here." on and on until I started crying and accused them of saying things that made me look bad (even though now - after I have adjusted my perception to understand them - I find it barely acceptable).

[redbaron]

That's exactly what my ESE cousin's reaction to my SLE friend was and both of them observed me shouting back "No I don't; you're both embarrassing me by saying that's why I come here." on and on until I started crying and accused them of saying things that made me look bad (even though now - after I have adjusted my perception to understand them - I find it barely acceptable).

why so serious?

[golden]

Mmmm, I sort of understand why so serious. Sort of.

My LSE ex did opposite things than this in public. That is, he didn't joke around and embarrass me. His humor toward me was actually gentle, mostly kind; if he teased, it was very light, never striking at the heart of something important to me. An EII would probably love this and think it was fun. It didn't bother me, but it didn't do anything for me, either--I experienced it as kind of bland and overly sentimental.

No, see, the ex would say something, just once in a while, to criticize me in a more serious way in mixed company. Something Si-related, for example, as I'll eat almost anything and he's very particular about health/diet. Or he would point out something about my personality, life, values that I could say was sort of a Te-hit, like getting a tableful of people at dinner to discuss in logical terms why "Golden should become a lawyer," one of his pet topics. *sigh* I told him again and again I will never be a lawyer, and every time he went off on that I felt comPLETEly misunderstood and poorly represented by him.

You might be surprised at how incredibly hurtful those things were to me, even if they don't seem like a big deal. It was just wrong place, wrong time, wrong PERSON. I would squirm in my skin and become exasperated. Eventually, I couldn't deal anymore. The last time I remember him declaring how I should go into law because it would allow me to "maximize [my] income using my skills set," I nearly did cry. It was just ... enough already--YOU become a lawyer. Fuck off.

I'm wary of talking too much about SLEs. I'm still learning about 'em. But yeah, I can imagine how EII and SLE's Fi/Se mix-up could play out very painfully for the EII. And maybe I'm way wrong, but I see SLEs as wanting some kind of indirect guidance in that Fi realm, but it won't come from provoking the type of reaction that they would get by stomping on the EII's sensitive spots. 'Cause no one wants to be "the bad guy," you know?

I also can see how EII and SLE might get along well at first. Elsewhere, Maritsa described them as gentlemen, and they certainly can be, in my limited experience. But (again, I could be wrong) I see at least some of them as having a pretty intense type of humor that has to do with Fe somehow, and it def wouldn't fly for the EII.

[redbaron]

Or he would point out something about my personality, life, values that I could say was sort of a Te-hit, like getting a tableful of people at dinner to discuss in logical terms why "Golden should become a lawyer," one of his pet topics. *sigh* I told him again and again I will never be a lawyer, and every time he went off on that I felt comPLETEly misunderstood and poorly represented by him.

hmmm. my parents used to say that exact same thing to me ALL THE TIME. "you should become a lawyer" (actually now that I think about it, my husband has probably said that to me too but not recently). I dunno... it never really hurt me. I guess I just took it with a grain of salt and figured they just meant I had good arguing skills (which I do). *shrug* I dunno. People's comments like that don't usually hurt me. I guess because I know who I am and I figure they're not intending to hurt me so I write it off and ignore it if I don't like it. And hell, if it's an SLE just trying to be funny or cute, I always bite (assuming I'm in the mood) and joke back or at least laugh.

But Maritsa, I'm sorry if you felt misunderstood and attacked. If I were there and saw that you were feeling that way from an SLE (or anyone else for that matter), I'd probably give him a look and say "of course not!! Maritsa doesn't need to pick up pretty boys cause they all come to her. " Anyway, I wouldn't stand by and see you feeling bad.

[golden]

hmmm. my parents used to say that exact same thing to me ALL THE TIME. "you should become a lawyer" (actually now that I think about it, my husband has probably said that to me too but not recently). I dunno... it never really hurt me. I guess I just took it with a grain of salt and figured they just meant I had good arguing skills (which I do). *shrug* I dunno. People's comments like that don't usually hurt me. I guess because I know who I am and I figure they're not intending to hurt me so I write it off and ignore it if I don't like it. And hell, if it's an SLE just trying to be funny or cute, I always bite (assuming I'm in the mood) and joke back or at least laugh.

But Maritsa, I'm sorry if you felt misunderstood and attacked. If I were there and saw that you were feeling that way from an SLE (or anyone else for that matter), I'd probably give him a look and say "of course not!! Maritsa doesn't need to pick up pretty boys cause they all come to her. " Anyway, I wouldn't stand by and see you feeling bad.

I think it's just how it's packaged. I've had other people tell me I should go into law, with no major negative reaction, and it took a long time for me to start getting really upset over it with the ex. If the info is coming to an IEI from her conflictor and packaged in Te, again and again, eventually it's bound to be an ouchie. See?

[redbaron]

I think it's just how it's packaged. I've had other people tell me I should go into law, with no major negative reaction, and it took a long time for me to start getting really upset over it with the ex. If the info is coming to an IEI from her conflictor and packaged in Te, again and again, eventually it's bound to be an ouchie. See?

yeah. makes sense.

[golden]

That's exactly what my ESE cousin's reaction to my SLE friend was and both of them observed me shouting back "No I don't; you're both embarrassing me by saying that's why I come here." on and on until I started crying and accused them of saying things that made me look bad (even though now - after I have adjusted my perception to understand them - I find it barely acceptable).

Just thinking about this some more ... imo, Maritsa, the fact that the SLE joked around like this with you only means that he liked you. Maybe if you can see it that way, you can adjust your understanding to something a little higher than "barely acceptable"?

But yeah, an Fe response is what the joke was prob meant to elicit.

And part of the reason why I can sort of understand your reaction is that from living for so long with an LSE, I got accustomed to NOT being joked with in this way. I mean, I have some sensitivity, too, and I was almost trained into being YOU, because the expectation was that I needed to be treated in the way you would require and enjoy. My Fe wasn't welcome, so ... yeah. I've had to readjust a bit now that I'm around different kinds of people.

[redbaron]

Just thinking about this some more ... imo, Maritsa, the fact that the SLE joked around like this with you only means that he liked you.

absolutely. that's exactly it.