Should anything even be said about Enneagram type 6s since they are so contradictory?

[KazeCraven]

Apparently whatever one type 6 is, there's always another type 6 elsewhere that's the opposite.

So why is anything said at all? And what good does having a 'type 6' do if even the typical features such as loyalty and anxiety don't always hold?

I see a hole in the theory.

[Creepy-male]

Short answer because I'm being distracted by loud music: because the Enneagram doesn't look at external behaviour. If it did, Sixes wouldn't be the only problem primary type.

[Azeroffs]

Apparently whatever one type 6 is, there's always another type 6 elsewhere that's the opposite.

So why is anything said at all? And what good does having a 'type 6' do if even the typical features such as loyalty and anxiety don't always hold?

I see a hole in the theory.

The 6-fixation is shared by all sixes (obviously). That's what makes them all a six. They say sixes are so varied because the six fixation is to adhere to something for security and reliability. Anything. So while one six will hold on to one ideal or trait, another six could hold on to the opposite.

The head triad asks, what can I be sure of, or what can I rely on? The six being in the middle of the triad has the most frantic kind of mental energy which questions everything including them-self leaving them paranoid and unsure of everything, and so they must find something in life they can reasonably trust or rely on to get them through things with some kind of stability and reassurance.

[Galen]

Despite E6s being so "diverse," the one thing they all have in common is a strong desire for security. This video has some really good info about E6:

Specifically take a look at where he talks about fears of the E6: the dying alone, not being able to trust a single person, etc etc. At the deepest level this is something shared by all E6s, even though most are healthy enough to not let these fears completely override their psyches.

[KazeCraven]

Hmmm. Much of this makes sense, but I still have a slight problem.

Let's say I have it on good authority that I'm probably a 6. Specifically a 6w5 sx, 649. I would say I have a serious problem with guidance, not necessarily security. I don't feel like someone's always out to get me, and I'm pretty laid back (this is where I point out that I have no trouble going against what other people want, nor do I value peace of mind per se).

That's not to say I don't have strong fear responses in regards to intimacy, but if it can be selective like that then the idea that it's all-pervasive is misleading.

[Azeroffs]

I would say I have a serious problem with guidance, not necessarily security.

Can you elaborate?

[KazeCraven]

Certainly.

I have trouble knowing what I want, or what I should do, but I'm not worried about getting attacked or losing things.

And now, even though I'm pretty sure I know what I want, I have serious doubts that it'll lead to fulfillment.

I don't worry about whether something is too risky; I worry that it's the wrong choice (when it pertains to finding fulfillment).

[Aiss]

E6s never seemed any more diverse to me than other types, really. It was only on forums concerned with Jungian typologies that I've first heard this "E6 is universal", aka "any type can be a E6 theory". Not saying any type can't be any other enneatype, but just because 8(*2(*2(*2(...)))) and 9 types in a system don't quite match doesn't make E6 any different from others. It seems as a way of forcing a direct relation where there's none.

FWIW I've never had much problems with typing E6s, and never thought of it (or any other enneatype) as "trash type".

[KazeCraven]

E6s never seemed any more diverse to me than other types, really. It was only on forums concerned with Jungian typologies that I've first heard this "E6 is universal", aka "any type can be a E6 theory". Not saying any type can't be any other enneatype, but just because 8(*2(*2(*2(...)))) and 9 types in a system don't quite match doesn't make E6 any different from others. It seems as a way of forcing a direct relation where there's none.

FWIW I've never had much problems with typing E6s, and never thought of it (or any other enneatype) as "trash type".

This is not my argument. I actually think MBTI/Socionics is more flawed than the Enneagram.

My argument is that E6s are both phobic and counterphobic, and that many of them can't even be described as some of the key words (such as loyal) without the word being so broad that it applies to nearly everyone.

[KazeCraven]

Right. Loyalty isn't a descriptor I'd use to describe them generally. Most like the idea of it, more than they actually practice it.

The fixation is more about seeking clarity/certainty… something about wanting their subjective impressions and judgments about reality to be in sync w/ the actual objective conditions. They're kind of 'broken' in their ability to trust themselves in this respect. Which seems positively retarded from my POV when I really look at it.

This makes more sense to me than what is often said. I do not understand why 6s are characterized as more fearful/anxious than all other types. All types have basic fears that can be triggered at all times. If the core fear is on support and guidance, this would seem to just be an obsession with certainty about their support and guidance systems. Sure, this might lead to dogmatism (since total certainty is hard to come by), but anxiety seems only to be a likely trait.

[Aiss]

The thing about Enneagram fixation and fear is that you have a basic fear, or rather, perceive the world as threatening in a certain way - an image that forms in childhood. Then there are defense mechanisms, ways to deal with this world - kind of "if it looks like a nail, use a hammer", to rephrase the common saying for this purpose - to avoid suffering, which is the real motivation. From this what we call "motivations" stem, which in turn result in behavioral patterns.

For 5s, the original perception is that of invasive, intrusive world. This leads to visible focus on protecting their privacy.

For 6s, this image happens to be of the world which cannot be trusted, is going to get you if only you give it an opportunity. The key part is not "the world isn't nice", but rather "the world is deceptive". Their way of responding to it is to be on their guard, always. So they try to be self-reliant, careful, mistrustful, but can't help the pessimistic outlook that comes with this watchfulness. And while all types have an inherent fear, 6s clearly display anxiety in behavioural patterns associated with this type - worrying too much, preparing for the worst case scenario, preferring predictability, overestimating danger, not trusting easily. IMO the latter is the indirect reason for often added "loyalty".

For 7s, the world is primarily seen as limiting, forbidding. And so they can't let an opportunity pass without feeling oppressed.

5s and 7s also are based on fear, of being invaded or limited, respectively, but 6s fear is most related to everyday "fear" out of those.

I didn't expand on other examples, but I hope it give the general idea.

[KazeCraven]

The thing about Enneagram fixation and fear is that you have a basic fear, or rather, perceive the world as threatening in a certain way - an image that forms in childhood. Then there are defense mechanisms, ways to deal with this world - kind of "if it looks like a nail, use a hammer", to rephrase the common saying for this purpose - to avoid suffering, which is the real motivation. From this what we call "motivations" stem, which in turn result in behavioral patterns.

For 5s, the original perception is that of invasive, intrusive world. This leads to visible focus on protecting their privacy.

For 6s, this image happens to be of the world which cannot be trusted, is going to get you if only you give it an opportunity. The key part is not "the world isn't nice", but rather "the world is deceptive". Their way of responding to it is to be on their guard, always. So they try to be self-reliant, careful, mistrustful, but can't help the pessimistic outlook that comes with this watchfulness. And while all types have an inherent fear, 6s clearly display anxiety in behavioural patterns associated with this type - worrying too much, preparing for the worst case scenario, preferring predictability, overestimating danger, not trusting easily. IMO the latter is the indirect reason for often added "loyalty".

For 7s, the world is primarily seen as limiting, forbidding. And so they can't let an opportunity pass without feeling oppressed.

5s and 7s also are based on fear, of being invaded or limited, respectively, but 6s fear is most related to everyday "fear" out of those.

I didn't expand on other examples, but I hope it give the general idea.

Hmmm. Well, that's unfortunate. If what you say is true, I wouldn't be able to find myself in any of those types. I'm only on-guard in sketchy places or when I'm really invested in trying to get to something.

I propose an alternate idea for type 6: type 6s are focused on finding certainty due to inability to trust their own minds or the world and struggle with doubt. I'd argue that type 6 sp is characterized by what you say, as they are overly focused on their well-being, but that other variants would not necessarily be such. This leads to skepticism or loyalty, or if they force themselves to provide this certainty, excess thinking and analysis.

[KazeCraven]

You pretty much pegged it.

Oh whoops. Checking again, I pretty much just said what you said in a different way, didn't I? At least the sp thing was new.

Hmmm. Now I'm not sure I'm a type 6 either. Oh well.

[Creepy-male]

What was wrong with Nine?

[KazeCraven]

What was wrong with Nine?

I don't really value peace of mind much, am comfortably selfish and self-absorbed, and don't really have trouble going along with others. If anything I'm too quick to put up boundaries and go do my own thing by myself because I disagree with 'the group' or the other person.

That, and I've those who know me better (and know the Enneagram better than I do) don't think I'm a type 9. I've actually been deliberately inflammatory to try to get someone to argue with me, but people have either taken it really coolly or back down too quickly.

Did I mention I very much want to get down to the bottom of things? Protecting myself with pleasing thoughts isn't my style. But I do have self-assertion issues, which is why I considered it.

[Azeroffs]

Hmmm. Well, that's unfortunate. If what you say is true, I wouldn't be able to find myself in any of those types. I'm only on-guard in sketchy places or when I'm really invested in trying to get to something.

I propose an alternate idea for type 6: type 6s are focused on finding certainty due to inability to trust their own minds or the world and struggle with doubt. I'd argue that type 6 sp is characterized by what you say, as they are overly focused on their well-being, but that other variants would not necessarily be such. This leads to skepticism or loyalty, or if they force themselves to provide this certainty, excess thinking and analysis.

The whole thing with their struggle with uncertainty is that it causes fear though. Anyone can be unsure of things, but the 6 fixation is to find something they can trust so that they don't have to be so afraid of the unknown and the unpredictable.

For a six, fear is a driving force. They live and breath anxious energy, so much so that they usually don't even realize how deeply rooted it is.

[Azeroffs]

Every single enneatype is defined by a particular fear—one so deeply rooted that a person usually doesn't realize it. Hence what causes the various types to act out in the stereotypical ways they do. You're missing the point of the E6 fixation.

I get that, but 6s actually feel paranoia. They are afraid of things in general. All types have fears, but they aren't having problems with fear itself. (except other head types)

[Azeroffs]

the head triad is also known as the fear triad, and six is in the center of it. Why do you think that that's a mischaracterization?

[Creepy-male]

Both E6s I know are constantly worried about everything, I don't see how that's a mischaracterisation on Azeroff's part.

Are you referring to theory or experience?

[Azeroffs]

I always call it the anxiety triad, which is different from fear.

It's a mischaracterization because every enneatype can be defined by a central fear. So why would we say E6's central fixation is fear itself…? That doesn't explain anything about what's really going w/ the E6.

But what's the root cause of the worrying? That seems the more interesting/important part to me, and something oft-ignored about E6.

Both.

It's just semantics.. but either way 6s are characterized by paranoia and fear caused by uncertainty and unreliablity. Heart and Gut types have their central fears, but they aren't characterized by fear. 9 is a good example of that.

It might be more clear to say that head types are motivated by fear. The other types are not. The gut and heart types are motivated by anger and shame respectively.

[April]

I have trouble knowing what I want, or what I should do, but I'm not worried about getting attacked or losing things.

And now, even though I'm pretty sure I know what I want, I have serious doubts that it'll lead to fulfillment.

I don't worry about whether something is too risky; I worry that it's the wrong choice (when it pertains to finding fulfillment).

For what it's worth, I strongly relate to the above and really think it hits the nail on the head.

Yeah, every type can experience anxiety. But it's a signature trait of the head triad (5,6,7), as that tends to be their 1st line of defense under stress. But I should say it's a certain 'kind' of anxiety—one generated by too much emphasis on thought. 5/6/7's primary inclination is to try to outthink their problems. They overly rely upon intellect to understand and derive solutions to whatever they're facing, and invariably fuck themselves over by doing so.

The funny thing about E6s, is that the more anxious they are, the less outwardly it shows. You have to read them paradoxically—when they're being all stoic and ultra self-controlled, that's how you know something's up with them. Their anxiety typically doesn't manifest in the stereotypical way that most would easily recognize.

Yes, yes, yes.

I get that, but 6s actually feel paranoia. They are afraid of things in general.

Perhaps your phrasing or focus needs some work. "They are afraid of things in general" feels like a strange way to put it, even though I get where you're going with that line of reasoning. (Heh. Ahh! Things are surrounding me! Ahhh! Objects!) What's more important is the source of the fear or how we cope with that fear. Also, for me, it's more about hypervigilance than paranoia. Those are wholly different states of mind.

Edit: See here: http://cbkit.tripod.com/id14.html

[Creepy-male]

This is painful to watch. Honestly it is.

EDIT

Azeroffs: "Here's my clumsily worded observation."
Ashton: "Cool. Now let me completely derail the discussion by engaging in a nitpicking contest with you over semantics, completely missing the point."

[Azeroffs]

Uh, yeah they are. Take my etype for instance—E8s are characterized by a fear of vulnerability. That's effectively the nexus upon which everything about the E8 rests. Taking this into consideration then, how is E8 any less characterized by fear than E6… ?

I get what you're saying... but eights aren't primarily dealing with the emotion of fear is what I'm saying. They don't go about an average day feeling fear and responding to it in the way that head types do.

Also, for me, it's more about hypervigilance than paranoia.

That's a good way to put it, but I wouldn't say that paranoia is a bad way to describe it either. How would you say they are different exactly?

[Creepy-male]

Woot, someone else got my words out for me

Okay, another example. We can agree I'm a Nine. In the loosest possible sense, my fixation is around the "fear" the my little inner happy bubble is going to be disrupted. Yet, day-to-day, neither I, nor any other Nine, is a very fearful or anxious person.

[Azeroffs]

Of course they don't respond to it the same way head types do (since they're not head types), but that doesn't mean it isn't there. Usually the sensation of fear gets circumvented by the type's standard defense mechanism, before awareness of the active fear can register upon the psyche—i.e., in my case, say if someone I'm close to hurts me, I'll typically get angry and yell and tell them to fuck off and die or something like this. It's a way to avoid the sense of vulnerability and feeling of weakness towards that person, because that isn't some shit I want to acknowledge.

Same story with other types. The 'fear' gets redirected into some other kind of mental state or action, to avoid coming to terms with it. Most head types don't feel actively afraid per say—some form of anxiety kicks in instead to cope in its place. E5s minimize and analytically cut off from the world. E6s get hyper-vigilant and what not. E7s re-frame and re-drect their thoughts towards more enticing possibilities. So on, so forth.

If you want to call it anxiety, that's fine. I can agree with that.. but, I'll just point out that if you're wanting to get technical, all the types feel some form of anxiety from their central fear as well. It doesn't really matter what you call it. I don't think there's any disagreement between what we're saying or any misunderstanding of the theory anyway.

[Galen]

The funny thing about E6s, is that the more anxious they are, the less outwardly it shows. You have to read them paradoxically—when they're being all stoic and ultra self-controlled, that's how you know something's up with them. Their anxiety typically doesn't manifest in the stereotypical way that most would easily recognize.

I wonder if this is at all related to disintegrating to 3. Under stress, 6s try to project an air of "no everything's okay, I got this, I'm untouchable" etc. They're really just putting up a front, which from my personal experience comes from not wanting to seem intrusive upon other people; it's like to explain the things that are bogging me down would be to thrust all of my problems on another person, when I really dislike doing.

[munenori2]

6 is my lucky number. I shit you not!

[Galen]

6 is my lucky number. I shit you not!

well then prepare to get lucky tonight~~~~~

[munenori2]

ruh roh

[KazeCraven]

For what it's worth, I strongly relate to the above and really think it hits the nail on the head.

April, how certain/comfortable are you with your 6w5-ness?

I was actually thinking 6w5 sx (though sx/sp) for myself.