gogogogogogogogo
gogogogogogogogo
I descended from a race of giant man eating birds. They call them Wuulaaahs. You don't want to piss them off.
blame god, not genetics
The Pope supports evolution over intelligent design:
Catholic Church and evolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Pro-Intelligent Design
Some of the objections raised by Intelligent Design scientists are relevant: children are taught evolution because it is a scientific consensus, but to a large (or at least relevant) degree, it is a scientific consensus because it is enforced as such, and one of the methods of that enforcement is teaching only evolution.
I mean, I had a good friend come to me from her intro bio class and gladly say that her professor had informed her that all arguments against evolution are bullshit and wrong, at which point she proceeded to offer a quite illogical workaround of the intelligent design bit about how the eye is useless until all the pieces are there (i.e., it is not the sum of its parts---the function of the eye is emergent). And I think that's really irresponsible. I mean, how do you discover relativity when everyone goes around teaching that "all alternatives to Newtonian physics are wrong! Such is the scientific consensus!"
I do think that science in general falls prey to "methodological naturalism," which is the assumption that nothing exists but matter, and as such, it should be no surprise that scientific conclusions tend to imply that nothing exists but matter, or at least to minimize/ignore the role of immaterial things.
Some things intelligent design has done are just things that should have happened long ago anyway, like pointing out that Haeckle's embryo drawing purportedly proving that 'ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny' are manifestly faked and incorrect, and as such should NOT be in children's textbooks any more than history books should report that George Washington wrote the Declaration of Independence. Just because a false piece of evidence contributes to an (arguably) true conclusion (in my example, that George Washington played an integral role in the development of the United States), doesn't make it any less of a false piece of evidence.
Anti-Intelligent Design
On the other hand, the scientific consensus exists for a reason. Evolutionary theory has proven to be quite the effective explanation for a variety of phenomena, and that definitely counts for something.
Intelligent design, no matter how many protestations it makes to the contrary, is not a 'movement' with a purely secular purpose. Both the majority of the scientists that pursue it and the organizations that fund it have non-scientific ideological goals and ways that they seek to gain from intelligent design research.
Science kind of has to be methodologically naturalistic, simply because immaterial things are freaking hard to test, while material things can be tested fairly easily, until they start getting really, really, really, really small. (really = a decrease of five-to-ten orders of magnitude).
Not a rule, just a trend.
IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.
Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...
I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.
It's the scientific consensus because it has been repeatedly tested and supported by the research of other scientific branches, and no theory has yet been presented that explains the natural phenomenon observed in biodiversity better than Darwin's evolutionary theories.
Of course, but those pieces evolved through descent with modification, the specialization of pre-existing parts through genetic mutation and adaptation. The morphological stages in the evolution of the eye is fairly well documented in more "primitive" species. I expect that a simple Google Image search of "evolution + eye" would show numerous graphical representations charting these stages.I mean, I had a good friend come to me from her intro bio class and gladly say that her professor had informed her that all arguments against evolution are bullshit and wrong, at which point she proceeded to offer a quite illogical workaround of the intelligent design bit about how the eye is useless until all the pieces are there (i.e., it is not the sum of its parts---the function of the eye is emergent). And I think that's really irresponsible.
You do so through challenging it on mathematical and scientific grounds.I mean, how do you discover relativity when everyone goes around teaching that "all alternatives to Newtonian physics are wrong! Such is the scientific consensus!"
That's because science cannot test or speculate on anything beyond the material. Science does not make claims about "non-matter" or the spiritual, though many scientists do have a preferred scientific naturalism worldview rather than a supernatural worldview. Science only makes claims about the material universe. Anything beyond that is not in the scope of scientific pursuit.I do think that science in general falls prey to "methodological naturalism," which is the assumption that nothing exists but matter, and as such, it should be no surprise that scientific conclusions tend to imply that nothing exists but matter, or at least to minimize/ignore the role of immaterial things.
Ernst Haeckel's embryo drawings were debunked and decried as fraudulent in his lifetime. But this was originally done by evolutionists and fellow scientists and not from the intelligent design community, who only did so when they needed an outdated evolutionary strawman to tilt against. Now Haeckel is not in scientific textbooks for the scientific breakthroughs he did achieve, but to showcase this controversy in the intellectual history of evolution.Some things intelligent design has done are just things that should have happened long ago anyway, like pointing out that Haeckle's embryo drawing purportedly proving that 'ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny' are manifestly faked and incorrect, and as such should NOT be in children's textbooks any more than history books should report that George Washington wrote the Declaration of Independence.
Johari Box"Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
Right. But then you have statements and beliefs like: science and testing has replaced belief and superstition; the scientific method has been proven the best way to truth; there are no shortcuts to truth beyond the scientific method, etc. It would be fine for science to confine itself to material things if the culture respected that confinement, but it doesn't (and some scientists--Dawkins--don't either). Rather than remaining neutral (on scientific grounds anyway) on immaterial questions, which would be the responsible thing to do, many people, both scientists and nonscientists, attempt to apply natural standards (i.e., evolution) to metaphysical questions (i.e., how the universe came into being, what existed "before" the universe, what caused the universe or life or whatever). It's not that the two cannot inform one another, but there is a way in which science is limited as well as strengthened by its scope. I think we tend to recognize the strength, and not the limit.
Not a rule, just a trend.
IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.
Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...
I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.
How did the universe come into being?
We don't know... yet. And we may never, but it's worth seeking the answers.
What existed before the universe?
We don't know... yet. And we may never, but it's worth seeking the answers.
What caused the universe and life?
A reasonable guess (to my knowledge) is random chance. There might be other answers, and they're worth investigating, because we might found out that we can come up with a better answer.
"We". This is sort of like the limbo between science and philosophy, since I think, much like how there's the pyramid of needs for individual humans, civilisations have their own pyramids of needs, and as a species we're still really dealing with staying alive, so not too much thought can really be directed toward (since thought on a grand scale also costs money, and money only tend to flow to where it can accrue and return in greater mass... very frustrating) the grand mysteries of the universe.
Science is also as applicable to the abstract as it is to the concrete, since the two are the same, just one is made of neurons firing, and the other is made of atoms and molecules. If it weren't, we wouldn't have theoretical physics.
Science is not the pursuit of Truth either, nor do good scientists claim to know the "truth." (Talk about a loaded word.) To paraphrase from Indiana Jones: "[Science] is the search for fact... not truth. If it's truth you're looking for, Dr. Tyree's philosophy class is right down the hall."
While some scientists attempted to claim that science and religion exist in two separate spheres - namely Stephen Jay Gould and his concept of the Non-Overlapping Magisterium (NOMA), this is not necessarily the case, as Richard Dawkins explains quite well. Religion has, does, and will make claims about the natural world. And in those cases, religious claims do fall within the purview of scientific inquiry and examination. For example, any resurrection to life from a state of death would be an anomaly apart from naturally observed phenomena.
Your "facts" hurt my brain.
But are you serious?
Skeptic, I admire your willingness to respond so thoroughly to yellow82's post. I was in the process of losing my patience just reading it.
Yellow82, I would highly recommend Ernst Mayr's fantastic book What Evolution Is. Ernst Mayr is a leading evolutionary biologist who was instrumental in the modern evolutionary synthesis. If reading is not your thing, then there are a number of anti-creationist YouTube channels that debunk creationist misconceptions of science. I would recommend: thunderf00t, potholer54, and AronRa.
Johari Box"Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
You know; a lot of you if you ever played the: "How rude can I get game?" could win first prize. :wink:
Right now I am beginning to not even want to discuss this on a thread anymore. . .
Skeptic and Subterranean I will pm you.
The rest of you: enjoy your time discussing this amongst those that can withstand your seriously insulting comments.
I agree with the principle of offering people alternatives, as it forces them to think on their own rather than accept whatever they're told, but I don't think "intelligent design" is a sensible one in this case. "Intelligent Design scientist" is an oxymoron for me, as is "belief in evolution", which sounds like something made up by believers because they can't understand it has nothing to do with it. What distinguishes science from religion is that it focuses on doubt rather than belief, and so it's disturbing to me when it's made into the latter, as you describe with evolution here. Only it's even worse to present something based on pure belief (regardless of how generic it is) as an alternative and still pretend it's science. There's nothing wrong with admitting we don't know or understand something - and the more advanced it gets, the more often you meet with this answer. It's mostly on the basic level that everything is presented shallowly as obvious and proved.
There might be no proof of evolution, but there's evidence and no real alternative. You could try to explain it with another theory, or question it, but to dismiss it altogether on the basis of nothing more than a belief is like saying "it's proved false because I want it to be false".
Believe in whatever you want, just don't call it science.
Perhaps not incredibly relevant to the discussion at hand, but it seems like the teaching of evolution is hardly an appropriate arena for teaching children about scientific skepticism. This should really be introduced
A more relevant issue is not "Evolution is a belief being passed off as The Truth over other beliefs" (and as Aiss stated, it's not really a belief or philosophy or anything like that), it's "children are not being taught to question things". It seems like that would be a more worthwhile debate topic tbh. But whatever, I smell a NiTe vs SiTe superego clash on the winds, so I'll leave my thoughts at that
At any rate, I'm not in America, and AFAICT Australia doesn't have similar issues with the church dipping its toes in every facet of public life (which is frankly what I see ID being taught as). I did also attend a secular private school, so I can't speak for the public schools. Bear that in mind.
Fair. Trade? Science whatever you want, just don't call it absolute truth.
My real opinion on intelligent design and evolution is that it's fine to teach only evolution in a science class (with the exception of incorrect things like those embryo drawings), but that people shouldn't be made to believe that the scientific idea ("the best natural explanation for biodiversity is evolution") necessarily supplants or replaces the philosophical/religious/spiritual idea ("God created life").
Not a rule, just a trend.
IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.
Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...
I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.
"Science isn't English. I like English, but not Science, because Science robs life of meaning, so I think Science should be made into English." Unfortunately philosophy and religion are quite outside the scope of science or the science classroom. I'm not mocking you or anything btw
I don't think science in school really suppresses any of that. Do your experiences run contrary to this?
How are they "made to believe this" though? Science just follows the evidence around and creates hypotheses and theories to explain the evidence... theories change when enough evidence to the contrary is found (invalidating the theory). It isn't about belief or philosophy at all (if it is, it is no longer science). If a person believes there is no God to create life for instance, and also agrees that evolution appears to be the best explanation we have for the changes observed with living organisms throughout time, the reason they're "supplanting the philosophical/religious/spiritual idea" is simply that they didn't believe in God to begin with, which is a separate matter. Although some people don't believe in something like "God" and don't have really many spiritual beliefs because they see no evidence for it or reason to believe in it (and you could say that this kind of person and thinker is very much a product of a modern worldview that holds evidence as supreme in understanding reality, so point taken). Anyway ironically the only science class I've ever had (and I've taken many) where someone tried to make us believe something was in 9th grade biology where the teacher couldn't seem to restrain himself from telling us that the human ear is so complex that only the Biblical God could have made it and that although there may be evidence for micro-evolution, there's no such thing as macro-evolution because God created all life on Earth and it's been for the most part unchanging for the last 6,000 years (as the Earth is only 6,000 years old). Other than this, there have been no "beliefs" presented in sciences classes I've had... only the course material and the evidence & theories surrounding it. Considering that he was otherwise a shitty teacher aside from this I thought he had no place teaching biology class. It would be one thing if he was just sharing his personal beliefs and saying they were personal beliefs while still maintaining a line between science and things that are not science (but in his mind he had intertwined them to be the same thing and was presenting it as "the Truth" of things). To clarify he was trying to push his personal beliefs on the class as both "truth" and as scientifically valid (or perhaps he was saying that science itself is invalid, I'm not sure which). But the point is it didn't belong in science class.
Edit: I would contrast this with my 11th grade AP Biology teacher who told us that after we've delved into the biological complexity of everything enough we'll see that only the Biblical God (that fiend) could have made all these things because they're just so ingenious and all. I can't remember her beliefs, but I think she felt God was guiding evolution along or something. Anyway I had virtually no issue with this because although it was clear she thought her personal beliefs were "true" she wasn't corrupting the presentation of the science itself and with that I have no issue. She also seemed to have some understanding at least that people have the right to believe what they will and so I didn't feel trampled over by her ideology. And I think discussions of these broader questions can enter into science classes (or I don't really have some sort of stance on it) and be just fine (although they could potentially create arguments and take time away from the course material defeating the purpose of the class, but I don't know if I even have a problem with this, and I guess it would just depend on the actual individual cases, because I can only go so far with it hypothetically). I probably don't see any reason to believe "God is guiding evolution along"... I mean it's like saying that God is guiding along processes of erosion or something when gravity and wind and what not can make rock walls gradually fall into rivers all by themselves.
I mean I do think that we operate more off of a view of evidence these days and looking to evidence and fact has to some extent overwhelmed the more mystical inclinations that dominated the peoples of the past before we had all of these tools of thought (and technology to delve more and more into things). So you could say "science has become many people's religion" but science itself isn't supposed to be a religion... it's not about belief. Beliefs that arise in one's mind in part influenced by what they know about science are still their own doing (not the doing of science) because humans manufacture beliefs and meaning. It's like blaming the gun for shooting someone rather than the person who pulled the trigger.
Anyway my main beef is when "creationism" or "intelligent design" are taken as valid alternative theories to the theory of evolution because they are not "theories" in the scientific sense and therefore they do not belong in science classes at all.
My other beef is that they assume a Judeo-Christian worldview and you know there are actually other bodies of religious belief out there and so I see it as discriminatory against other religions and other beliefs in general (including atheism, which I see as very much a belief and some atheists are just as fanatical about it as some religious people).
I think that part of the issue is that both spiritual beliefs and science are used to answer questions... people want to understand the why behind everything and in our minds it's easy to cross different ways of addressing these questions and muddle them up... it's just that science doesn't operate in a more mystical context as spiritual beliefs do and so they don't at present belong in each other's universes, at least not things like the classroom where the classroom is supposed to teach scientific matters.
But I mean when you have all these vectors pointing in the same directions "the big whys" it is conceivable they may eventually hit each other... but still this is more a philosophical matter... and it's not like they can't merge, but one has to be very careful I guess about how they organize it in their minds (I think geniuses like Stephen Hawking for instance often have the mental power to organize this together, addressing both scientific and philosophic matters without mixing it all up into a giant mess fueling feelings of outrage regarding what it does to their own beliefs).
Another issue is the need to believe in something interferes with the seeking of understanding. At some point belief overcomes understanding and then it isn't about asking why anymore but about defending what one believes (but of course what we believe gives us reasons to actually do things and so we need our beliefs). And I think this is kind of a dangerous ground to tread mentally and objectivity is one thing I feel helps keep me from falling into it (as well as questioning). It's a precarious balance in it's own way. It's that everything one learns contributes to a conception of reality and the world and sometimes the defending of that conception turns around and denies what is right in front of us because it might tear down the walls of the world we believe in.
Last edited by marooned; 11-16-2010 at 05:44 PM.
I keep adding onto my post, so I think I'll just start another one. I wouldn't worry that people will lose all sense of the underlying elements that produce superstitious beliefs, faith, mystical notions, etc. I think that people naturally do this (it's in our biology) and I think is very wed to our emotionality, intuition, and sense of meaning. No matter what the world believes, I don't think we could lose that part of ourselves and still be human. Nothing is changing, just the external framework of that something. I also think these things are essential to being a complete human. And regarding "God" I can't say I know if there is or isn't one, or something beyond the physical and mortal world that I understand (or perhaps don't understand), or simply beyond my conceptions of it, but the question is definitely important to me (but I think it's important to everyone, and people seek after it in their own realms--and I think science can be one of those realms... I mean we're just trying to learn more about our world, the universe, and ourselves... and we're trying in every avenue we have available... but fundamentalist beliefs can get in the way, and I generally feel it's wise to avoid them I suppose). Or perhaps I should have just said beliefs that seem too fixed. I'm just really wary of adopting too many beliefs and then I torment myself over not having any beliefs. I'm not happy either way. But there is somewhere in the middle where it's all balanced and I like the middle.
Creationism – Where’s The Proof? ((Pt. 1))
The question is: can one determine with 100% accuracy that God does or does not exist? The answer to that question would be no – no one has seen God; neither do we need to see things in order to know that they are there (wind, radiation, etc.). But, we can see the effects of wind and radiation. This should also be true if there really is a God; is there evidence that points to there being an actual creation? Since neither side can fully justify their belief system the question really comes down to – which theory is more likely to be accurate?
In this post I’m going to be going over the reasons why I believe that our planet was created by an eternal being rather than created by chance. I will be bringing up practical reasons as to why it would be shocking if our planet was created by “soup”.
First of all; let’s consider the facts:
The Big Bang Theory
There was a Big Bang. I think most Creationists and non-Creationists agree with this conclusion at this point due to the facts that our earth is ever expanding. Because if our earth is ever-expanding then the farther back we go – the more the earth decreases in size. The proof behind this theory would come in the Friedmann Equations. As well as the fact that during Friedmann’s experiments they actually found proof of the earth expanding.
Therefore; we can conclude that at one point there was nothing; no time, no matter, absolutely nothing. The question is; if there was nothing then how could all of this come from nothing? I like to think that God actually did it; but I’m going to sit here and start giving you some more facts to think about.
Our DNA
A lot of people like to think that within the DNA structure over millions of years; species can add on more DNA to where that over millions of years they become a different species. The fact is that there is no proof of this. I have yet to see a “missing link” that wasn’t hocus pocus; or DNA that wasn’t added onto by the scientists in the lab.
Yes; species can change; but only within their species. We have never seen a species jump from one species to a missing link to another species; and out of all the millions of animals/plants/rocks/everything else, wouldn’t we have seen one in the past 100 years?
No Proof of Missing Links
Not only this; but there is no proof in the fossil record. Scientists like to tell you so; but when you actually study the fossil; they are still birds/dinosaurs/etc. Or a skeleton that’s been messed with to make it look like it’s something that it’s not.
Dinosaurs Still Exist Today
Evolutionists like to say – that there are no dinosaurs that actually exist today. This is a BIG lie. We have proof of dinosaurs that have hit the Florida beach; there are dinosaurs in Africa; (even the flying one), there is a dinosaur named Nina in Australia; and the Locknus monster in England (there’s around 40 of these dinosaurs in that lake).
The Vikings feared the Dinosaurs of the sea so they would make their boats have the dinosaur’s head. They were considered “sea dragons” and if you read their logs there are several stories of these creatures; all up until the 1800’s.
Yes; there are very few dinosaurs left now; but; they exist. Still!
If you believe in evolution – that is killer evidence that the theory is messed up right there. --^
How Could These Creatures Live Without the Circle of Life?
One of the main questions that I have about evolution is this: how could certain animals live without others? How could an animal live without some of its primary necessities? Wouldn’t the circle of life mess things up?
Yep; it sure would; but evolutionists don’t want to talk about that. The fact is; plants could not live without birds, butterflies, etc. Neither could the insects live without their stingers, etc.
Everything is tied together in a perfect unity – look at creation, it was made to be perfect. Think about it, could that really come by chance?
Chance: The Statistics
So let us sit here for a moment and consider the possibility that this world was created by chance. Out of nothing – our world came. Wow. That’s a hard one to stomach. . . and then, out of non-living matter came living matter; WHAT?!? (That goes against all the foundations of Biology!)
The fact is that this “theory” that scientists have made “law” ((excuse me while I ::cough:: )) is seriously un-logical and unscientific. There is no proof that non-living matter can turn into living matter. In fact; DNA cannot even add onto itself. It merely functions within the realm of DNA that already exists.
So which makes more sense? There’s a God that made all things; or that somehow chance; (supposedly based on the rules of physics) created all things?
I don’t know about you; but somehow believing that this all came to be through nothing doesn’t make any logical sense to me.
Last edited by yellow82; 11-16-2010 at 07:14 PM.
that was kind of awesome
Religious people are idiots and a dying race.