Model B

[Raver]

I like this system better than Model A, can you display the precise order of the functions under Model B and why they are ordered in such a manner.

[Olga]

Well, I have not read Young and know just enough to get by.

But look at this and think how many combination can be created from the relationships between Ego and Superid; and Superego and Id.











This is the kitchen of types' creation. The combination of all possible variants comes to 4 at each end. Subtypes are different shades of the same colour. For example, two subtypes of INTj: one have strong colour of than weak colour of and on the opposite.

1. The question is why for the creation of types only these two relationships used of Ego and Superid and Id and Superego?

It seems to me that these relationships provide the feedback between two wheels of Life and Afterlife and accordingly extraversion and introversion. The individual is a baby of two worlds material and spiritual and is a channel of connection between the two.


2. The second questions is why it should be that eather rational fucntions only inside or outside? Why can they mix up any way possible?

I am not sure what Young said ...he probably meant the same thing what I did when i wrote that we colect the info through either judging or perceiving but not from both. If from both... that rationality /irrationality dimension simply would not exist.
And in the same way we produce info on different levels (intra or extra) only though either rational or irrational functions. Probably the God thought ... double of this and double of that ....will be a bit too much and he actually wanted us to find balance and to explain that too much of anything is not good for us.

[Olga]

I like this system better than Model A, can you display the precise order of the functions under Model B and why they are ordered in such a manner.

That is a good point. I will clarify it now and we shall look at it on your type.

Basically, I am not going to change much the meaning of the functions and take it as suggested by socionics. At the moment for me it is minor -details while I am interested in the concept of types creation and the reasons behind it. I don't want to do what so many other people do - to chew on the types' characteristics and how it is better to determine the time -creation of tests. I would be happy if Gilligan could propose a new version of intertype relationships theory and etc.

The butterfly shape is simple.

1 Ne 7 Ni
2 Fi 8 Fe
4 Ti 6 Te
3 Se 5 Si


At the moment I have got no intentions to change the meaning or number of functions as it is known in Model A. I do not want to create confusion. I understand that the model B can add or change meaning of the functions but not at this stage.

Why I suggested the butterfly shape:

1. Functions are better understood in dimensions. The strength of the functions is according to the place in the psychic structure which reminds butterfly.
It means, if you strongest function is Ne that means you can be as strong on Ni, you simply do not use it due to the preference of Ne. The first dimension is reflective and the mastermind who gives orders to the second dimension to act.

2. Your creative is a bit less stronger, and again the idea is if you strong on Fi - you can be strong on Fe - it is not your preference, but you use it from time to time. Fi -Fe dimension is action directed onto external environment. You produce changes which serve your immediate needs and change the environment to adapt to you needs.

The meaning of these two dimensions is very important for your enjoyment of life. You do not seek the balance consciously on these two dimension but you find it sooner or later if you psychic development is in the positive direction.

3. You weakest dimension is Ti and Te only due to containing your fears and worries.
Yes, potentially it can screw you up but …it is also a defensive dimension and can be developed to a strong one. This dimension is also creative or producing but on the internal level as is if you create defence mechanisms which will change you inside. You still will have your worries and fears at times but they will be under your control and will give internal stability and strength. It is umbrella.

4. The last dimension Se -Si is strong enough to compete with the program function but in reality it provides a good support for the first dimension, they are working together on the same goal - to make your internally strong to withstand challenges of life. First dimension collects information internally on the subject of your interest which is Ne, while the last dimension collects info by active interaction with an environment to feed Ne.

Your cube shape will be

1 7 top far end

2 8 top front end


4 6 bottom far end

3 5 bottom fron end.


You collect info through your irrational functions and produce though the ratinal functions. That means people will not see you as irrational person but rather on the opposite.


Your irrational collective functions originate in Id block - extraverted irrational.
Your producing/creative functions originate in Superego block.
Your type was created of the relationship between Id and Superego with the predominance of Id (joi/power of Life) I would assume! The exchange of info between the two wheels Life and Afterlife goes through this channel: Id - Superego. Later I will think about the information flow in more detail. It all has meaning…which we will discover one day!

[Olga]

The model is flexible - it is not in stone. Dimension provide you with the flexibility. Depending on what you are doing at any particular time - the shape will change in accordance with the use of the functons. It is a living model. The changes that happens at the present moment can impact on the development of blocks and whings and can produce ugly shapes which can have long term effect. You meet people and you can see what block is undedeveloped or overdeveloped. It will be possible to diagnose people on the very simple level by using this model. This is the model of psychic development and it's elaboration is to continue.

[Creepy-pokeball]

The model is flexible - it is not in stone. Dimension provide you with the flexibility. Depending on what you are doing at any particular time - the shape will change in accordance with the use of the functons. It is a living model. The changes that happens at the present moment can impact on the development of blocks and whings and can produce ugly shapes which can have long term effect. You meet people and you can see what block is undedeveloped or overdeveloped. It will be possible to diagnose people on the very simple level by using this model. This is the model of psychic development and it's elaboration is to continue.

You have my interest with this now.

[Olga]

The association between functions and blocks on one hand and the existence of relationships/dimensions which feedback between Wheels L and A on the other hand gives us the opportunity to understand how the types have been created out of four elements: Ego, Superego, Id, Superid.
So that we can identify types by the strongest element present:

Ego types: ESTJ, ENTJ, ENFJ and ESFJ.

Superego types: ISTJ, INTJ, INFJ and ISFJ.

Id types: ESTP, ENTP, ENFP and ESFP.

Superid types: ISTP, INTP, INFP and ISFP.

The next step possible is to look into how -on what principles - the 4 quadras have been created. We shall use the same principles of balancing and “feedback” dimensions”:

Ego - Superid

- dimension has been identified as dimension of self-control/ free will versus dependence/obedience ;

Id - Superego

- selfishness versus sacrifice.

Quadra contains four elements of free will, dependence, selfishness and sacrifice.
The types are selected on the principle of mirror relationship because their power must be equal to provide the necessary amount of tension. As if two knights are in a fight learning to withstand each other’s power, benefit of learning each other’s skills and keeping the equilibrium which provide ongoing fun of competing and excitement. Sorry, for not very logical but rather colourful explanation. I am sure if you want a scientific one - you can find it if only you look for it. There is nothing that God could not give to the beloved child. Therefore for Alfa we have got:

ENTP (id) + INTJ (superego) and ISFP (superid) + ESFJ (ego);

Beta :

ESTP + ISTJ; INFP + ENFJ.

Gamma:

ESFP + ISFJ INTP + ENTJ.


Delta:

ENFP + INFJ ISTP + ESTJ.

[FDG]

Makes sense.

[Olga]

Today I would like to mention two tings: insight into typology and the flexibility of the developmental process.

1. The model allows us to look at the types from a different perspective: Id, Ego, Superego, and Superid. This gives us an extra thought: in what way types are different and similar to each other and can lead us to better understanding of intertype relationship theory. The model is simple like a bible or alphabet book and makes things obvious for not overly intellectual people. If we grasp the idea in what way four elements differ from each other and how it is expressed in behaviour than it will give us extra aid/clue about the possible type and/or the developmental stage of an individual or even the perspective from which the person approach the matter.

We can assume that some people will exhibit very strong “element “ behaviour and can be representatives of the “element” type to the degree that we can extract the typical features shared by the “element” group. I watched yesterday the programme about David Blaine - the guy who likes to seat under the water, feels there like at home, tries to hold his breath until he touches the death and then experience the rebirth.. He says he does it for fun basically because he likes to perform. Last time he wanted to bit the record of 8 minutes without breathing under the water, failed, got minor skin damage, was rescued during a big show. When out of the water, after a few minutes of rebirth, was tearful like a baby and his first words were those of love and appreciation of all that many people around the world who came to see/support him and appreciate what he is doing….

…Because he does it not only for himself but for them as well - he is an inspiration and one of the spiritual leaders. He goes to extreme living experiences and describes how his spirit feels at any of the moment. He says, for example, what is important: no past or future but present - each and every moment of your life - learn to appreciate it!

After his “failures” he always asks himself “Why am I doing it?” and comes to the conclusion: no way back - only forward. It is a matter of life and death for him and he wants to show us than he is bigger than life. Next time he wants to perform the same act without being dependent on rescuers. What element or relationship/dimension of elements does he represent? Why David Blaine - an extreme presenter of Superid block is mentally healthy and his fears and worries have no power on him and are no more than exciting toys for him
What about Mother Theresa? Who is the best to represent the other element groups? Where shall we locate G. Bush, ******, Bin Laden, Stalin, Lenin and other prominent figures?


2. The model also shows the common phases of the development of psyche:

1. An egg is associated with the phase of Superid block - stage of dependance on mothers body.

2. Caterpillar stage - Id block - Nurturance - rapid physical growth.

Both stages represent childhood.

3. Chrysalis - transitional stage of Ego development - stage of transformation and maturity into adulthood.

4. Butterfly stage - Superego stage -colourful stage of adulthood, productivity, confidence, fulfilment, wisdom.

5. This is a transitional stage from adulthood to Afterlife, a preparation to
meet the end of the extraverted stage Life and the beginning of introverted stage Afterlife. The wheels reverse…. Time to face the consequences and to live with them until…the next circle of life?
Do not take it too pessimistic though: if you are a heroin addict - you will get plenty of that and a lot of support from the other’s like you! You will be there where you belong baby. If you want to change anything - you better think about it now while you are still here.

Just a quick look into the mathematics of irratinal world. Number 3 represents the God: Life, Guidance and Love. Number 8 symbolises 8 functions of the psychic sructure and colours of the rainbow with numerous shades. Mysterious number 6 is still puzzling.

Now we have got a butterfly model of psychic structure which can be associated with a living fairy which nobody can see/ touch but surely exists . It looks like we are on the way to rediscover old forgotten irrational world.

Back to serious staff:
These phases of the development are not set in stone and will be different in length for different people. The model suggest that the two wheels of Life and Afterlife move in different directions (swastika) and provide feedback. That means when the wheel L speeds up the wheel A slows down and on the opposite. For example the state of depression related to fears, worries, stress will slow down the life processes. This gives a scope for the environmental influences which can speed up or slow down the wheels at different period of life. Some processes are healed and reversible depending on many factors and some lead to the irreversible effects. It happens on the level of momentum and the long term level.

The development of the blocks is probably more about the ugly shapes - sickness of conscious. Again environmental influences play a huge role. Depending on what society/culture/ immidiate environment you live in - it will impact on your blocks. The majority of offenders are not afraid and actually don’t mind to go back to prison - they fit well into the structure and feel like at home. It looks like they have got issues with freedom and free will.

Please, take the model and play with it - it is a new toy for you. Apply it to real life, develop it further and see the magic colours. The model is universal and can be applied to many different areas of life. But if you look for more than that….may be it is the time to start the soul search , it's never too late while you are here.

[Stormy]

Number 8 symbolises 8 functions of the psychic sructure and colours of the rainbow with numerous shades.

The rainbow is commonly said to have seven colours; red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo and violet. What colours are you seeing?
-

[Olga]

Thanks to Stormy for the order of the colours - it is actually what I wanted to ask. I assumed it was 8 colours but it is 7, that's fine. Hopefully some time later we shall find the place for number 7 in the model too. If next time I say again something silly, please, correct me I don't mind to be silly at times - a bit of insanity works wonders for me.

The reason why I wanted to ask about colours because I think it would be great to give rainbow clours to the functions. Logical peope created the model in black and white - it would be good to add some colour to it!

Actually I just noticed that one very bueatiful colour is missing - Pink!
I would suggest to put pink straight after purple and this way we shall connect cold colours with warm colours. I would associate extraverted colours with warm functions and cold colours with introverted functions.
How about violet ; pink ; red ; orange ; yellow and green ; blue and indigo - something like that?

Actually I wanted to post more serious thoughts. I would suggest that the very basic purpose of life for each type will be hidden in the opposite “feedback” block. For example, for Superid block the task will be develop Ego - take charge and not to be afraid about consequences - to experience life, appreciate each moment and make it work wonders.

Ego types have to think carefully what they are doing at present moment because it will impact on their future or future of the loved ones, to think about consequences, learn submission and tighten up themselves with responsibilities. I would assume Ego types like freedom in many different ways.

Superego babies should not take too much on their shoulders and not to be overly conscious: there is only so much we can do! Leave a good part of it to others and relax into life…

Id types need to find connection with the Higher Spirit, to integrate Higher will in their life, find the true guidance and meaning of life.

As you can imagine we share all these purposes but they are in particular important for those who is working out one of the dimensions.

…Actually David Blaine said about his wired experiences when his mind goes off, so that he is experiencing borderline conscious which reminded me of those experienced by Emily Rose: when people do not differentiate reality and nightmare. I would assume that Emily Rose was a Superid type. I think David Blaine is most probably ISTP? It would be interesting to make a scan of his brain.

[Olga]

Gamma time - colour time

I am going to show you the world in colours - where you would not expect them to be. But I need help from the fine artists, other synasthtets and light hearted members of this forum.. While we expect the arrival of dark times (6.06.206) we need to get ready to generate lots of colour from inside out in order to keep emotional sanity.

The model has been born just about the right time it will help us to connect to the world which Yung thought to be lost for the western civilization. India is well known the heart of the Earth, the East represent the rising Sun….and the West is associated with sunset (possible birth place of Antichrist?) and somewhere there must be the brain part too (Thanks God - It is not Amerika! :wink: ) I am not sure about the exact day of Antichrists’ arrival but a special child have been already born. I have read the article in a newspaper about the baby boy born somewhere in the Midlands of England. His birthtime and date came out to 8 numbers getting in line: 12345678 - As far as I remember!


The Nostradamus’ prediction about the New York towers has been fulfilled therefore, I have got no reason to doubt the arrival of Antichrist. Nostradamus also predicted that when the dark time arrives the humanity will have the new knowledge to protect them. I believe that this knowledge will be found through connection with the irrational world of Positivity - Higher Spirit. Well it seems to me that we have to dig a bit deeper which I could have imagined.

My first topic on the forum was about Mind - Feeling dimension - I would expect the fight to be between the cold-blooded rational Mind and deeply rooted irrational power of Love. It may will be that we shall have to sacrifice Love to warm up the Mind - we are simply not allowed to follow the path of complete destruction. Remember this.

I think we are slowly but surely moving into the domain of cognitive psychology and memory. I would expect collective conscious and collective unconscious to be binary too - Good and Bad in one.

Now back to the direction of the flow. How does it exactly works?
Collective unconscious stores the representations of the material objects, and abstract concepts and works for us most of the time in automatic mode - so that we do not spend ages on recognising hammer or a cup of tea and can manipulate those things while daydreaming. But we are different due to differences in types and this is governed by CU which will work in different ways too, based not only on type differences but also other factors like level of knowledge, field of interests, life experiences ( CC?) and etc.


For example, we go to a book store and look at the books…or we go to the forum and open different topics and look if the posts generate any interests and inner respond. Extraverts may look at many things at once and replay to many different topics simultaneously while introverts have to direct their thought due to the limited powers.
The inner respond comes automatically when you look through the topic. How? We do not spent ages to decide: yes or no, because the direction between the trigger and the check up point is straigt - it is called internal collective dimension! So, I, ISFJ, will respond to those topics which have a potential for Fe, Fi and related to them Te and Ti. other staff seem to be boring for my abilities and can hardly contribute to the tooics I can not grasp (e.g. Te and Ti not related to Fe and Fi). God, I feel nearly hopeless in a computer store!

We do not need always to seek rational access to CU and CC - only in times of inner turmoil and confusions! I remember a beautiful Irish film about the INFP girl who was very religious and very down to earth at the same time. She came from time to time to the church and made a “dialog” by talking to the God. She asked her questions and answered for the God the thoughts which came to her mind. It is a shame I do not remember the name of the film - it was a story about modern Maria and Yesus in reverse.
The girl became a prostitute and sacrificed herself for Love. She died that her husband could leave - something what others could not comprehend - the purity of soul does not depend on the purity of the body. Clear soul could be in prostitutes, drug addicts and those who commits suicide - they will be forgiven.

When we do though seek access to CC and CU - then we go the Afterlife block, which generate answers. From you base functont flow drops straight down on to you weakest point - function 4 in Model A and moves the Wheel A into its direction which is opposite to the Wheel L. The corrected info goes through all functions in the Wheel A and comes back through the same weak function to the Base function check up point. The reflective self register and gives order to act or not to act to the creative function. Those who have Se as base function or creative function - could be more impulsive than other types.
The question is how much of our brain represent conscious? How many functions or Blocks we could call as individual conscious (IC)? I would assume only two functions - those which generate Ego block. Dido may disagree though. She sings “Nothing that I have - is truly mine!”

[Olga]

Thanks to UDP who put my attention to the cross model of the personality development. Today it became smoothly integrated into the idea of different types of consciousness. Consciousness is closely associated with memory but I do approach it from the direction of “personal” psychotherapy. I have realized that people do not know what exactly I am doing in life. I am working as a therapy assistant, studying forensic psychology, was a teacher in German long time ego, worked also with children. Please, do not assume that I know psychotherapy or do anything with it in my professional life.
I am very alienated and do not have personal contacts with any of socionists as such. I have sent recently the draft of Model B to a different sites. I have got no idea what they may think about the Model B but do not expect cheers. However, what others think is irrelevant as long as you like it. As for me - I am having fun. Thanks God this forum exists and we have freedom to express ourselves. Next time I am planning to write about different parts of consciousness and it’s relation to blocks L and A .

[Megan]

Please, check out the coours they are working and they can dufferentiate between subtypes in more detail. People turn to like the colour of their base function. Sometimes they choose the colors of the strong block. The distribution of the preffered colours may tell us to what degree the person is balanced. Some INFPs like blue and Red and black, while the others do not like Red which shows polarisation of the bloks and disbalance. Some people like for example ESFJ like red and do not like blue but brown wich is actually a mixture of red and blue.

Disbalance does not necessarily mean that the person is emotionally unstable or unhappy. It may simply mean the prefernce and subtype. WE know very little about the psyche yet - should be careful with conclusions! Better start exploration and share and discuss results.

[Olga]

Exclusively for the forum members I would like to uncover the mystery behind the number 6.

Firstly I would like to make a change to the developmental process of the psyche. it relates to the last stage described -number 5 stage.

As I mentioned previously this stage as an end of life and beginning of the new - this is wrong. Number 5 stage is return to Superid and experiencing dependance associated with the old age. This stage is aimed to slow down live processes to prepare you the rebirth into Afterlife.

The mysterious number 6 is associated of stage which happens sometime shortly after we die -your judging day. If the soul is evil it gets eliminated or destroyed with no coming back. The process of soul purification will be stopped. It may well be that it will be not a complete distruction but an eternal mysery... or whaever your imaginations can bring you - to become a flying rocket in the space .

The good soul can continue the procees of purification through afterlife and then most possibly back to the extraverted stage of Life.

The problem with getting peace and happiness on Earth is related to the deeds which bad souls leave behind. In this way we can say that even the thought is material. While in live we are influenced and we influence - and this is what we leave to the world when we die. Therefore, it is potentially difficult to get rid of evil on Earth.

[FDG]

You know, I have some problems understanding what you write. Some big problems. Some big big big problems. Big. Enormous.

[Mariano Rajoy]

has the potential for interesting dialogue though. begin with afterlife

[Olga]

@FDG

I have the same problems understanding logically abstract material.
You can ask questions, no matter how silly they sound - I am a patient teacher. What is it exactly you do not understand? I am associating colours with psychological functions by using my feelings predominantly.

I feel people and I feel colours. People have irrational part and this is what I am using my irrationality. I need help of logigal types to uncover the mystery of logic behind the feelings and to help me with presentation of the chart. Do you understand Model B discussion or is it also difficult? Keep looking at the developments with model B. I am on the way to combine functions with colours and numbers.

@Mariano

It is what I am going to do now, look at the model B in a short while.

[Olga]

Dan Millman described the Life Purpose system in his book " The Life you were born to live" - A guide to finding your life purpose. You can find you life path by adding the numbers of your date of birth. The numbers of your life path will give you insight into the spiritual purpose of your life.

I have associated the numbers from 0 to 9 with 8 psychological functions and 10 colours. If you are interested to find your purpose of life -refer to the book, please. At the moment I just provide the association the way I see it, I would not mind to discuss it if you think it is not right from your point of view. This info can give us more insight into the preferences of colours and differnces between the types, because differnt types may have different spiritual purposes in life. We shall need to see if this association will work or not.

1 - creativity and confidence
2 - cooperation and balance
3 - Expression and sensitivity
4 - Stability and process
5 - Freedom and Discipline
6 - Vision and Acceptance
7 - Trust and opennes
8 - Abundance and power
9 - Integrity and wisdom,
0 - Inner gifts

For descriptions of functions, please, refer to socionic theory:

1 - Ti -violet/purple,
2 -Si -indigo,
3 - Fe - red,
4 -Te - orange,
5 -Ne -green,
6 -Ni -blue,
7-Fi -pink,
8 -Se -yellow,
9 - rainbow of colours create your identity /mixture creates confusion -black
0 - cristalclear/white

[Creepy-]

For example, INTJ and the wheel D. INTJ’s are very sensitive to overt emotion like ISFJs but their reaction will be different because it will fall onto different wheels. Extraverted emotion, like a screaming child, will make them both to react pretty immediately but ISFJ will grab the child to cuddle and INTJ would rather escape or will try to shut the child up by using the force from the point of authority because it is intolerable.

The reaction of types is different because ISFJ was born to deal with it and INTJ was born to do a primarily different things in life and for that he needs peace and quiet which suit’s the best for concentrating thinking activity.

Even if you guys still think me an S or F type, everyone in my family knows I'm an INTJ because of how I am around babies. (Or they would use such terms if they studied socionics)



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Wow, this is the first time I've opened this thread. I'll have to digest more, but I do want to say thanks for sharing all this, Olga.

[Olga]

Thanks to UDP for apprecaition. I am at the moment bombarded from the uncounscious collective knowledge :wink:. Each time my thought touches socionincs - it grows like a snow bowl and feels heavy to handle. I feell like I need to go to the forum and dump it there before it sucks me completely in. The process is so intence at the moment that my head is all over the place and I feel like I have very little choice: I simply cannot concentrate on other things - untill I do it. I need a break and I want to be normal again .

Mistake: while I am rushing to convey the ideas - I may do little mistakes, please, get back to me if something does not sound correct to you. I am not a fine artists but more of a builder: I need quiclky to break what is ald and to put something sensible instead.

The point is: it may be I have done mistake by associating Number 0 with white. I think we need to keep it cristal clear. It is better to associate white with the positivity of number 9.
According to Millman, each number is binar -represent a dimension:good and bad sides. We shall assume that diversity of colours, most possible their light shades create white colour, while the mixture of dark colours create black. As you know some people prefer white and black -interesting phenomenon.

[Olga]

Different parts of conscious.

I would like to describe my understanding of conscious in very general terms and later it will be possible to consider it in more detail. My will be similar to the existing knowledge and different at the same time, because it will be related to Model B. Before I start to consider the topic I would like to make associations: conscious - Mind + Ratonality, unconscious - Senses + Irrationality. I also differentiate between Collective conscious/unconscious and individual conscious/unconscious.

The process of the development of different part of conscious has got two levels: momentary - day to day use, flexibility and change; and progressive -relate to the longer period, stages in life, stability. (If English would me my mother language I would probably describe it in a slightly different words but…It is not that important as long as you extract the meaning from what I am saying).

The process has got its mechanisms of internal/external collecting/producing - “give and take on different levels internal and external” in a way I have already described in model B when I wrote about information flow in the wheels.

My definitions are only sketchy :

Cc -collective conscious (practical and theoretical knowledge of the objective world, stored in books, laws, films, pictures, instructions and etc.)

CU - refer to Yung (knowledge about spiritual world as an experience, sensation, inspiration, revelation - collective, known to many by the paranormal experiences) awareness of the unknown world..

IC -individual conscious, awareness of the Self and the information flow through your mind, rational presentation of self.

IU - your personal storage of life experiences as sensations and revelations, memories in images and sensations, feelings.


The original idea is simple: We collect CC externally - produce IC internally and on the opposite when we collect CC internally - we produce IC externally.
The same happens with Collective Unconscious..

Different types: rational and irrational will be differently tuned into the working of different parts of conscious and depending on what their “element” dimension is will contribute to production of CU and CC differently through their creative parts of IC and IU.

It is possible to associate different parts to different developmental stages:

1. Superid stage connects the two worlds: Life and Afterlife. The “womb” or the “egg” stage is associated with rapid physical growth and formation of collective unconscious (CU). Nature provides material “body” while the CU provides the information from past generations (spirit). That statement leads us to understanding of the fundamental difference between the world of people and the world of spirits. People are real subjects living in the world of real objects. The spiritual world contains the reflection or informational/imaginary level of the people and objects- it is abstract level of existence.
That is why people say about the “material” nature of thought. The experiences of sensations in the world of spirit will be as strong and rich as in life but the world will be not -reality based.

The next question will be about the chicken and the egg; who produces whom and who drives whom or even simpler: Who is the Boss? The Boss is The God in Heaven.

On Earth we have two powers in charge : God and Devil, who channel information to your individual conscious from CU which is binary: both good and bad. Superego and Superid push you from both direction: you have to do this….otherwise you will get that: guidance and punishment dimension.
On the other hand, they have their rewards of an opposite nature which work in different directions. You can give your soul/free will to Devil and enjoy the “womb” stage till the rest of your life or you can exercise free will and get control over circumstances -stage of power.

2. Id stage. The formation of the individual conscious (IC). This stage operates by external collecting of Collective Conscious (CC) which results in internal producing of IC. The child experiences the powerful drives and learns to relate it to the I -perspective. It is a self- centred period associated with Animal Kingdom which is mainly managed by parents/adults by exercising authority on one hand and providing the existential needs of children. This period is well know as very important for psychological well being of a future adult because the information is processed mainly on unconscious/subconscious levels while the childs’ awareness of this world is still growing (IC). It is important to strike the right balance between play and education - to keep our children happy. Tatiana Prokofieva with her great love to children described the dynamics of the relationship between children and adults in more detail in her article related to the development of psyche on the basis of the Model A (in Russian): The development of personality on the basis of the model of E. Erikson and model A.

Id stage goes smoothly to an end with the beginning of adolescent. Adolescent rebellion is the sign that IC has finished it’s formation. The adolescent feels aware enough about the external world and is ready to take charge over the decisions in his/her life. This is the “end” period of internal formation of IC and a new stage of external Ego Formation begins.

3. Ego stage - internal collecting of Collective Conscious (CC) and external producing of (IC) is related to exercise of Free Will, taking responsibility and enjoying control over your decisions - learning of Life lessons blossoms. Collecting CC on internal level suggests doing as you told by free will because you want to fit to the social world and not to be an outsider. Cooperaton and balance. WE perspective - or collective conscious stage..

4. Superego stage - soul search -external collecting of CU and internal producing of IU.
This stage is associated with a search for your own identity, your personal happiness, individuality. This is the discovery of your Individual Unconscious which does not fit to CC or IC but rather conflicts with them. By finding your true colours you experience spiritual freedom which results in confidence, self-control over the circumstances, social rules/norms - formation of your very own system of values.


5. Superid stage - back to square one - lost of mental and physical abilities for the majority of adults is the stage of lost of Identity gained in a material world of Life and preparation for rebirth into Afterlife - stage of collective unconscious.

6. After Death, the person loses the material body but becomes a reflection of it known as ghoast. It sounds a bit wired to imagine how The Devil can stop the development of the souls, how it is possible to kill the thought or image or reflection - if only this reflection does not contains some kind of energy in itself - the question for scientists who knows the laws of material world?

[Olga]

5. Superid stage - back to square one - lost of mental and physical abilities for the majority of adults is the stage of lost of Identity gained in a material world of Life and preparation for rebirth into Afterlife - stage of internal collecting of CU and producing external IU.

[Raver]

What you wrote is very deep, but to be honest I can't really understand the majority of it and will probably go insane trying, however that is one of my weaknesses. One thing you wrote is attempting to correlate the order of psychology with the order of the physical world, which is an idea I was playing around with in my mind. It does make sense that our psychology would be shaped by the environment, since our personalities are techinically created in order to adapt and cope with the environment. I have noticed that the order of your functions is similar to mine except for a slight disagreement with the weaker functions. I like how you try to state that Ni is as strong Ne for me, but in a different completely different way and it aids through assitance in order to maintain stability. Though, I believe this is basically because Ne is conscious and Ni is unconscious. Ne is something that I experience everyday and don't notice, Ni takes me be surprise when it does submerge from the depths of the ocean.

[Raver]

I like how you collaborated the theory of ego, super-ego, id and super-id into socionics. It makes sense that rationality is linked to the ego and irrationality is linked to the id. However, I noticed that you stated that introversion is correlated with extremes and extraversion is more balanced. I'd like to know why this is the case. Also, you stated several types of consciousness, I want to know how it connects with socionics. For example, which types are more likely to be conscious in an individual? Is it based on terms of the dominant functions or the function itself?

[Olga]

You said:

"I have noticed that the order of your functions is similar to mine except for a slight disagreement with the weaker functions".


We need to look into this difference. What are you stating?


"I like how you try to state that Ni is as strong Ne for me, but in a different completely different way and it aids through assitance in order to maintain stability. Though, I believe this is basically because Ne is conscious and Ni is unconscious. Ne is something that I experience everyday and don't notice, Ni takes me be surprise when it does submerge from the depths of the ocean".

Not exactly what I mean. You are trying to understand it on a day to day basis and I am referring to the development of personality in a first place.
The idea is simple. During your life you use a lot of your conscous functions + . You go too deep into these functions, they become overdeveloped. You collect info outomatically by your base function and produce a lot . Just by using these two functions will not satisfy you. At one point in life, things will change and you will be able to produce something very different + - this is the missing link and the natural result of using + . It will make a "happy" circle - a completion. YOu will not only be able analyse people/relationships -suying very roughly - but you also will be able to make something out of it for your own good....It is a bit general but we could look into details too.
You can also be aware of overuse of your functions which will undconciously for you will probably impact on you in a negative way. You may start for example make negative predictions or experience negative feelings . When i wrote a model i focused on a bigger picture. One day i will come closer to explain each and every type through the model.


"I like how you collaborated the theory of ego, super-ego, id and super-id into socionics. It makes sense that rationality is linked to the ego and irrationality is linked to the id"

Rationality is alos linked to Superego and irrationality to Superid.


"However, I noticed that you stated that introversion is correlated with extremes and extraversion is more balanced"

I do not remember saying anything like that. Where did you read that?

"I'd like to know why this is the case. Also, you stated several types of consciousness, I want to know how it connects with socionics. For example, which types are more likely to be conscious in an individual? Is it based on terms of the dominant functions or the function itself?"

You talk as a Master of individualisation - exactly what I said about Diana and INFJs in the topic of "colour of your soul". You want to know how the model can be applied to an individual and the type. I did not think that far yet. But the topic of the "web of thought" is already touching upon the idea of introversion and introverted thinking being connected to .

What you need to consider that there was no individual conscious, individual unconscious and collective conscous so far. I ahve not studied psychotherapy but as far as i know Yung suggested collective unconscious only, subconscous and unconscous were described befor by Freud?.
If I am wrong please, correct me.

I think we have already made a huge step forwards by describing all these new parts of consciousness. Give it a time and we shall see into it too.

[Raver]

We need to look into this difference. What are you stating?

I'm stating that introverted judgement is a task. There are different styles to approach that task. That would mean that if the preferred style is introverted feeling than introverted thinking would have to be suppressed in order to retain dominance.

Not exactly what I mean. You are trying to understand it on a day to day basis and I am referring to the development of personality in a first place.
The idea is simple. During your life you use a lot of your conscous functions + . You go too deep into these functions, they become overdeveloped. You collect info outomatically by your base function and produce a lot . Just by using these two functions will not satisfy you. At one point in life, things will change and you will be able to produce something very different + - this is the missing link and the natural result of using + . It will make a "happy" circle - a completion.

I somewhat understand what your stating, since you are delving into the development of a personality. You believe that development of an individual is based on the balancing of extraversion to introversion and vice versa. I had conceived of the idea of the balancing of intuition and sensing and feeling and thinking, however I did not advocate a complete balance, which probably never occurs. I am uncertain whether this development actually occurs and a lengthy empirical experiment would have to be undertaken to prove this. My primary notion was that Ni served a peculiar role in order to aid Ne in terms of strength and frequency for an Ne dominant, but I must of mis-interpreted you.

I do not remember saying anything like that. Where did you read that?

You did not need to state anything of that nature because the model of your system spoke for you. You placed all extraverts as ego/id and all introverts as super-ego/super-id in your system. I want to know how you came to the conclusion of how introverts are more extreme in terms of rationality/irrationality.

What you need to consider that there was no individual conscious, individual unconscious and collective conscous so far. I ahve not studied psychotherapy but as far as i know Yung suggested collective unconscious only, subconscous and unconscous were described befor by Freud?.
If I am wrong please, correct me.

I think we have already made a huge step forwards by describing all these new parts of consciousness. Give it a time and we shall see into it too.

Does your model support the notion that an introvert is unconsciously extraverted and vice versa? I believe that our unconscious is a very mysterious nature of our mind that is only revealed in dreams and I believe it is where the truth of our environment and ourselves is revealed.

[Olga]

Sorry, I have not got much time at the moment to reply to Traveler respond, I will do it later.

When the Bible said " at first there was a word" - read "at first it was a thought". The Afterlife world is abstract world of thought and thought creates the material or creates something out of the material which already exists. Thought is one of the Gods and represents God on it's own.

Now the qwuestion for those who knows electricity. Swastika remined me when i saw two different power circles moving into different directions.
For home use the power moves like a positive swastika. It looks like for the Earth needs Sun is enough. For industrial purposes the electricity moves into opposite swastika way. It is possible to suggest that Afterlife world which represents abstract thought requires much more energy that we ever can imagine. That means this world is an energy consuming and...is energy producing? thoght is energy? What do you think about it?
How the energy is generated in the Afterlife world? What /Who generates the energy?

[Megan]

Traveler said:

I had conceived of the idea of the balancing of intuition and sensing and feeling and thinking, however I did not advocate a complete balance, which probably never occurs. I am uncertain whether this development actually occurs and a lengthy empirical experiment would have to be undertaken to prove this. My primary notion was that Ni served a peculiar role in order to aid Ne in terms of strength and frequency for an Ne dominant, but I must of mis-interpreted you.

No I think you understood it right. I am not tlaking about copmplete balance which is the state of 0. Balance in the model is equivalent to butterfly shape. You suppose to be stronger on the first two functions which are supported by the opposites - , -

For model B the polr - 4 funtsction is the weakest spot in the chain becaue it is associated with your primary fears. You can be Strong on

- to a certain degree but at the same time if you will do mistakes it will be more othen than usual on this function and therefore you can not ever to get rid of your fears completely. Basically so far i believe taht what you are saying about |polr being stronger than role functions is not true. Socionic expalind the meaning of these functions pretty well...although not completely,do you suggest a different meaning? you need to explain the reasons behind.

continue soon

[Olga]

You do not develop the weak functions to the degree of strong functions, there is a limit set up for all fucntions. For example, if You Ne is so strong then there si the risk to dissolve in this function, that is why you need a strong enough counterpart to pull it back to the norm. YOU start to go deep into so that you lose the point of why you actually doing it? Then you think about consequences of the effort put into it . For example you are a psychologist . YOu collect info about the client and analyse it so that you forget the point why you do it? If you lose the point - it will interesting for you but meaningles for the client. the point is to think about consequences of your analyses: how you can actually bring about a change in mood for you client and for you.

You said:
However, I noticed that you stated that introversion is correlated with extremes and extraversion is more balanced. I'd like to know why this is the case.
I do not remember saying anything like that. Where did you find it, in the model B topic?

You did not need to state anything of that nature because the model of your system spoke for you. You placed all extraverts as ego/id and all introverts as super-ego/super-id in your system.

That is true.

I want to know how you came to the conclusion of how introverts are more extreme in terms of rationality/irrationality.

I did not say anything like that in the model B, as far as I remember. May be you can point to a paragraph where you think I say that?

Rational types are in the blocks: Ego and Superego and irrational types in Id and Superid.

In the article about irrationality I mentioned that I believe that ethical irrational types and rational logical types represent the extremes or overdose, if you wish a natural disbalance. I consider feeling allbite being a rational function to be very irrational in nature because of the connection with emotion. Feeling plus irrationality could be a bit too much to handle. On the other hand, rationlaity plus logic must be very different in quality from irrational ethical types.

I might gave example of the introverted types but it can be equaly related to extraverts.

irratonal ethical/ rational ethical/irrational logical/rational logical

You said:

Also, you stated several types of consciousness, I want to know how it connects with socionics. For example, which types are more likely to be conscious in an individual? Is it based on terms of the dominant functions or the function itself?

I did not think that far yet. It is possible to suggest in accordance with the model that those types who work out such dimensions like Superid - Ego, Superid -Id or Id-Ego will be more focused on developing individual
conscous/subcounscious. Those who have strong connection with Superego block will be more interested in the development of collective
counscous/subcounscious. However, things may be not as easy as they sound and the colour theory should be considered.

For example, INFJ is from Superego Block but they (not all?) do like dark colours, which suggests connection with Superid and individualism. I think we need to look into Reinin dichotomies democrats /aristoctrats in order to understand better how it can be related to the development of personlaity and conscious. If you will get any ideas please, come back to me.

[Raver]

However, I noticed that you stated that introversion is correlated with extremes and extraversion is more balanced. I'd like to know why this is the case.

I do not remember saying anything like that. Where did you find it, in the model B topic?

You did not need to state anything of that nature because the model of your system spoke for you. You placed all extraverts as ego/id and all introverts as super-ego/super-id in your system.

That is true.

I want to know how you came to the conclusion of how introverts are more extreme in terms of rationality/irrationality.

I did not say anything like that in the model B, as far as I remember. May be you can point to a paragraph where you think I say that?

LOL, ISFjs make me laugh, you do realize that all these questions are connected and you gave two different answers, you sound like a politician! JK

Anyways, Look when I said that you stated, I meant that you had that under your system. Therefore, in your system introverts were extreme in nature and extraverts were more balanced in comparison. This is what the system displayed and because you created it, it is the same as you stating it.

Basically, your system displayed that rationality = ego/super-ego and irrationality = id/super-id. That makes sense to me and I don't disagree with you there. However, your system also relayed the message that introversion = super-ego/super-id and extraversion = ego/id. Why is that the case?

[Megan]

You said:

LOL, ISFjs make me laugh, you do realize that all these questions are connected and you gave two different answers, you sound like a politician! JK

I am sorry, I can read what you are saying but I do not see the meaning even now.

Anyways, Look when I said that you stated, I meant that you had that under your system. Therefore, in your system introverts were extreme in nature and extraverts were more balanced in comparison. This is what the system displayed and because you created it, it is the same as you stating it.

I don't mind this at all. I gues we all can read the same info in socionics and extract different meanings due to our different perception and etc.


Basically, your system displayed that rationality = ego/super-ego and irrationality = id/super-id. That makes sense to me and I don't disagree with you there. However, your system also relayed the message that introversion = super-ego/super-id and extraversion = ego/id. Why is that the case?

Now I understand you - you need to be very precise with me.
The idea is that Ego and ID represent wheel Life - extraversion and weel Superego and Superid represent Afterlife. Ego is about your power to take decision and express yourself by using free will. Id are powerful instincts of Life -enjoyment.

Superid is escape into your own introverted individual world - safe and secure - imagination - thought - relaxation. Superego - guidance to safety in Life (rationality) but also not less important Afterlife. It is also escape but a different one from individual escape - this is a collective, other orientated escape. Superego and Superid chill us out when get too much from extraverted interactions. Afterlife wheel is corrective towards life and superego and superid must complement each other because we have to love ourselves not less than we love others.

I wonder, if i find difficult to understand sometimes meaning of what you say.... can you always understand the meaing of what I say?

[Olga]

Traveler said:

Does your model support the notion that an introvert is unconsciously extraverted and vice versa? I believe that our unconscious is a very mysterious nature of our mind that is only revealed in dreams and I believe it is where the truth of our environment and ourselves is revealed.


I would agree with you if we would know for sure the definitoins of subconscous/unconscioius and when and how exactly it reveals itself. At the moment I have got not clear cut distinction between the two.

If I consider as unconscious is something that I do not know and not consciously aware then I consider subconscious as something I am half way aware or having a certain feeling that things are not the way they are.
Or even when i read the book and find something which strikes me as self- evident as if I knew it as well but did not realise that clearly before.

I think these all different parts of conscious are related to the way we collect/pick up info from the environment, the way we diagest it and produce it. It is one thing to have an understanding of something and another is actually to express it in words so that everybody will understand it. I guess some pleople may feel and see alot but have not abilities put it right in words and therefore - do not say much. Others have a gift to play with words and can say something which will sound very clever with very little meaing or new knowldege - just basically rephrasing
what is already known and suddenly....everybody is amazed about the insight. It well may be that we all have got different "channels of perception/taking in" information. Sometimes I listen to the academic presentations and is all like abstract bla- bla- bla, unless it is more specific discovery.

Sorry for being carried away. Back to your question. If we consider a person on the street who have got no idea about extraversion and socionic
- many things for him will be unconscious. If we consider the forum members who are well aware (not all I guess ) of their functons - they will be aware of thier extraverted behavour because they know what the notions extraversion/introversion mean. I was always aware about my ability to push because it was my conasious behaviour and it was me - something I experienced and felt as me. I was not that much aware why i fear things which I feared but i was conscously aware of having those fears....and I always felt that I wanted to study. I was aware of my drives that is why when I discoverd socionic it was not that difficult to get my type right.

However, I was not conscously aware that block Id suppose to meake me happy - I was sad and tired and went back in thoughts to my childhood where I felt happy. I wanted to be child again...and could not!
I was not aware that my Superid block is like a handycup forever with which I have to learn to live. I relaised it at later stage and all my experiences and knowldege collected i invest in model B. See if it will work for you.


The model suggest that Introverts collect info through the introverted functions and produce through extraverted functions; Extraverts collect info through extraverted functons and produce thorough the introverted once. In this way there is some sort of the balance in the change of using the functions within the individual and between the introverts and extraverts. They have to find understanding and mix up.

[Olga]

Actually a good example would be the one produce d by Kim:

[Olga]

Kim (ENFP or ?) wrote:

This is how I react to something that I perceive as non-appropriate behavior (as an example):
Someone jokes about molesting a child in the chat.
I ask to stop it because the following possibilities come to mind:
a) Someone in the chat might have been molested and could be triggered.
b) The person who is joking could actually be take seriously, wich can lead to all sorts of problems for him/her
c) A chat can be closed down for this sort of thing.
d) xyz.

(let's not talk about the likelihood of these possibilities. This is just an example).

My reaction then is based on an evaluation of the specific situation and a desire to protect people who could potentially get hurt, not on the idea of "this is immoral!" I have been getting accused of shoving preconceived moral convictions down people's throat, but my objections are really very much situation-based (with some exceptions). The ISFjs and INFjs I know are less wiling (as Diana also indicated, I think) to reconsider their ideas of what is appropriate.

Interestingly enough, when my NeFi triggers my desire to protect, my Se kicks into gear and often goes into overdrive (I become a real bitch). I don't know if it's my temper or some sort of weird function interaction. I bitch, chill and then sort it out with the person (if s/he is willing).

Basically Kim uatomatically collects this info of many different possibilities or potential "danger" and her reaction is the supress the "extraverted" interacton - she acts on the basis of her internal feeling. If her reaction is not welcommed she uses her role functon - which is relatively strong too. if you say something nusty to her - she does not care - she is bitchy/pushy and this works for her. She is an extravert who uses her extraversion to bring about the awareness of introverted feeling which acts as reflecton and supression.
Why she does not use her at this moment? Because it is her weak function.
-is by the way in associative socionics is associated with deep waters - cooling down and "taking in"/absorbing movement of info.
I am an ISFJ and I will act very differently. I will push even furher, I will create a tornado whenever possible and the more people will be involved the more fun for me. But I am not going to be bitchy - i will rationalise and reason because my role function is :Ti . I will use my introverted functons to intensify extraverted interaction.

Does it sound sensible what i write here?

[Raver]

Now I understand you - you need to be very precise with me. The idea is that Ego and ID represent wheel Life - extraversion and weel Superego and Superid represent Afterlife. Ego is about your power to take decision and express yourself by using free will. Id are powerful instincts of Life -enjoyment.

Superid is escape into your own introverted individual world - safe and secure - imagination - thought - relaxation. Superego - guidance to safety in Life (rationality) but also not less important Afterlife. It is also escape but a different one from individual escape - this is a collective, other orientated escape. Superego and Superid chill us out when get too much from extraverted interactions. Afterlife wheel is corrective towards life and superego and superid must complement each other because we have to love ourselves not less than we love others.

It makes sense to an extent, but it is far to general to be applied. If anything, I would think that superid and id should switch positions, since an extremist nature results in a more negative product. Anyways, I affiliate with all those aspects: ego, superego, superid, id. I'll admit that the Id is probably the strongest compared to the rest, however it is not significantly stronger and the aspects of ego/id are basically balanced in most individuals with a slight preference or order of strength. To put it under perspective, this is how I would rank these things in order for my life as of now:

1. Id are powerful instincts of Life -enjoyment.
2. Superid is escape into your own introverted individual world - safe and secure - imagination - thought - relaxation.
2. Superego - guidance to safety in Life (rationality) but also not less important Afterlife.
4. Ego is about your power to take decision and express yourself by using free will.

My ego is developing a lot more at this moment, while my id is being suppressed with maturity. However, the superid and superego are somewhat neutral in this regard.

I wonder, if i find difficult to understand sometimes meaning of what you say.... can you always understand the meaing of what I say?

To be honest, I can understand some things you say very easily, while other things I can't really grasp as well. When you talk in a manner that is based on your roaming free thoughts, I cannot comprehend them, since they are based on your individual thought process. This is probably one reason you can't understand me either. Of course, other factors come into play and we can discuss this matter further if you like in order to enhance dual understanding.

[Olga]

You stated your colours as:

Grayish Blue and Navy Blue. - Blue colours, Silver
I used to like green as a child if that indicates anything.

This is actually the colours most often associated so far with INFJ type.
You are ENFP and your colours are similar to their's:
.... - interesting.
Green is associated with intuition children are more extraverted as adults on the whole so it is not suprise that you liked green when you were a child.

I would like to get more clarifications about what you said:

It makes sense to an extent, but it is far to general to be applied. If anything, I would think that superid and id should switch positions, since an extremist nature results in a more negative product. Anyways, I affiliate with all those aspects: ego, superego, superid, id. I'll admit that the Id is probably the strongest compared to the rest, however it is not significantly stronger and the aspects of ego/id are basically balanced in most individuals with a slight preference or order of strength. To put it under perspective, this is how I would rank these things in order for my life as of now:

1. Id are powerful instincts of Life -enjoyment.
2. Superid is escape into your own introverted individual world - safe and secure - imagination - thought - relaxation.
2. Superego - guidance to safety in Life (rationality) but also not less important Afterlife.
4. Ego is about your power to take decision and express yourself by using free will.

My ego is developing a lot more at this moment, while my id is being suppressed with maturity. However, the superid and superego are somewhat neutral in this regard.

1. I did suggest that ENFP are Id dominant but if you feel that any other block is stronger expressed in your personality - you don't need to put it first in your order. I am interested in how you feel but not what theory states.

2. You said that blocks Ego and Id are balanced in the majority of individuals but you have put Ego block on the 4th place in your order. Why is that?

3. You said Superego and Superid are neutral for you but you did put Superid on the 2nd place of importance. And your preference in colours does suggest Superid to be strongly represented in your psychic structure.

4. The last couple of sentences destroys somehow the suggested order of blocks and refelcts your personality development at this moment. i guess we all supress our Id with maturity and then much later try to find the way back: freedom of responsibility and neverending joy of life.

Your ego development shows that you ar at the stage of internal collecting of collective conscious - existing knowlege. The second side of this process results in intensive external producing/interaction which enhances you individual conscious/ bank of your knowledge and therefore
make your Ego stronger by exercising decision taking/free will.

I see if there is some sort of confusion between what you feel and what you think....or may be I just misunderstood you. I can not grasp why you talk a lot about extremism. The model is profounly about extremism avoidance as one of it's prinicples is balancing. Where do you see extremism?

[Fermi]

I LOVE YOU OLGA!

[Raver]

You stated your colours as:

Grayish Blue and Navy Blue. - Blue colours, Silver
I used to like green as a child if that indicates anything.

This is actually the colours most often associated so far with INFJ type.
You are ENFP and your colours are similar to their's:
.... - interesting.
Green is associated with intuition children are more extraverted as adults on the whole so it is not suprise that you liked green when you were a child.

Interesting, is it because of the order of the colour or the actual colours? The order could be reversed come to think of it. I was definitely much more introverted as a direct result of my shyness or social phobia as a child. I always liked green during that period even though others I knew didn't until I conformed and began to like blue. My ENFp cousin liked green as a child too, I would have to discuss that with her.

1. I did suggest that ENFP are Id dominant but if you feel that any other block is stronger expressed in your personality - you don't need to put it first in your order. I am interested in how you feel but not what theory states.

Id dominant makes sense to me taking into account my low level of self control and ritual habits based on immediate gratification. I'm not talking about drug habits or eating, just something as simple as ignoring a priority such as school work and preferring to watch do something leisurely. It is strange, but my A.D.D. has improved a lot lately to extensive lengths. I found that if I listen to music, exercise and get adequate sleep it tends to deter the negative symptoms. I've never been disagnosed with it, but people I know believe I have it. I think I would be characterized as mis-diagnosed A.D.D. person, since there is an over-diagnosis of that disorder and it caused by the factors I mentioned in this paragraph.

2. You said that blocks Ego and Id are balanced in the majority of individuals but you have put Ego block on the 4th place in your order. Why is that?

Well, I stated that there are slight differences between the ego and the id and not dramatic enough to deter an individual's ability to adapt or be archaic when behaving according to their suppressed block.

3. You said Superego and Superid are neutral for you but you did put Superid on the 2nd place of importance. And your preference in colours does suggest Superid to be strongly represented in your psychic structure.

I had difficulty ordering these compared their balanced counterparts. I stated neutrality in terms of change that these two functions didn't transform as much as the ego and the id. However, if I had to explain the process of change, I would say that they are both being developed to great lengths meaning that the id, which has been so prominent in my life is the only function being repressed as a result of the demands in my environment and to fulfill my goals.

4. The last couple of sentences destroys somehow the suggested order of blocks and refelcts your personality development at this moment. i guess we all supress our Id with maturity and then much later try to find the way back: freedom of responsibility and neverending joy of life.

I agree with you completely. :wink:

I see if there is some sort of confusion between what you feel and what you think....or may be I just misunderstood you. I can not grasp why you talk a lot about extremism. The model is profounly about extremism avoidance as one of it's prinicples is balancing. Where do you see extremism?

I just perceived that the words super attributed to the ego and id would make it more excaberated and thus result in extremism. As is, the super ego is basically a more profound version of the ego and the same is applied to the id. However, it appears that is not the case based on your explanations.

[Olga]

@Mephisto: I LOVE YOU TOO!

@ Traveler:

Thanks for explanation, Traveler. That was very interesting. I think we are on the right truck with model B. You are a young adult, I would assume that blocks Superego and Superid do not play a big role in your life yet.

I remember a bit about astrology, they have got ascendent - rising star and descendent falling star. It is similar somewhat to the idea of the major dimension/direction: you have your "home" block, the one you come from and another one where you wish to go.

I was thinking recently about quadras and I have come to conclusions which I am not sure myself about or I would say not everything is clear to me yet. The idea is that quadras will have differnt order of the blocks.
I believe that your intuition, Traveler, or even subconscous guided you to the right order of the blocks. I have come to the same conclusion by means of rationalization. I am not going to explain how I have come to this conclusion as I need to think first of the best way of presentation. Let it be a puzzle for now.
I would like to name the orders for each quadra:

Alpha: Id, Superego, Superid, Ego.

Beta: Superego, Id, Ego, Superid.

Gamma: Id, Superego, Superid, Ego.

Delta: Superego, Id, Ego, Superid.

This is just a hypothesis, I hope later when I explain how did I come to it, we can check it out. I am seriously thinking of finding the better way to understand intertype relationships and I hope sooner or later we shall come to it.

[Olga]

At last I am posting the main part of model B. This is the first ethical model in socionics and therefore unic. The ideas presented here are not in the mainstream of socionic theory. The model is in the process of development. Please, comment if you wish to do so but not here - under the "general discussion" as I am going to use this site to post more pictures and info later: this is not the end :wink:.

Enjoy it and do not forget to post your critics! I didicate Model B to this forum.

Model B

Model B stands for butterfly model because the blocks of model A are rearranged in a shape of Butterfly.

Ego ID



Superego Superid

The functions are also supposed to be considered in the same shape (which will probably come out wrong on this site anyway ).
For example, for
ENTP :

Ne Ni

Ti Te

Fi Fe

Se Si

Rearrangement of blocks and functions gives an opportunity to look differently at the interaction between blocks and functions and to understand better and describe the psychodynamics. Interaction is based on two principles of balancing and identification.
Balancing is achieved along the diagonal or between the functions of different colour/version and the identification of personality from the vertical line as the result of this process.

Symbol of cross is an original basis for Model B. Jesus taught that He is the only Way and the Truth (vertical line). Main commandment: “love your neighbour as much as you love yourself “ is associated with the idea of balancing (diagonal). Way to the happiness lies through the labour of life to the knowledge of yourself, your possibilities and your role in life.


Blocks.

Blocks Ego and Superego form the block/wheel of adult person or rationality. Blocks Id and Superid are united into the block/wheel of child or irrationality.
Ego and Id form the block/wheel of life or extraversion. These blocks prevail in life. They represent physical embodiment or the material body of soul , and our abilities associated with these concepts: the ability to speak, to move and construct objects, to use the many possibilities of study, work and so forth.
The special meaning of Id: this block compensates and completes the development of Ego, the strongest block in the structure. Man consciously does not strive for the development of this block, because block Id is subconscious. However, precisely this block relaxes Ego and brings with it the sensation of child's happiness and joy of life.

Jesus taught that only those, who remain children will enter into His Kingdom. Those, who are pure and trustful, opened to a new world and are not rancorous.

Superego and Superid blocks form a wheel of Afterlife or introversion. These blocks form abstract or spiritual essence of the person which does not disappear with loss of a physical body. These blocks conduct us on a life and make perception (recognition) at a level of feelings and thinking.

The model could be presented as a tree where roots are associated with spiritual or introverted part of personality, and a trunk and a crone its physical embodiment or extraverted part of personality. It is possible to assume that after death people lose force of the block Life and aquire magic abilities and force of the block Afterlife such as free moving in time and space and ideal abstract structure of interrelationships. The Bible teaches: first there was the word. It means at the beginning was abstract idea /plan which then has been materialized.


Model B is the a “living” model, it considers the development of personality as a long term process of constant change of consciousness. As the person uses different functions so the butterfly flits in the rhythm of changes within the psyche. It is mobile and changeable structure of a psyche which reflects development of consciousness in positive and negative directions.


At the basis of the development of soul lies conflict, difference and the opposition. Each function includes negativism and positivism. Relations are constructed taking into account different charge of separate functions. Conflict is based on the contrast of two opposite forces moving into directions towards each other. The opposition of blocks Ego and Superid is the foundation of conflict. The will of man as a rational human being is opposed to the will of the irrational force that created him. God or Highest Spirit personifies this force.

Model uses an already known symbolism of the two swastikas moving in the opposite to each other directions and explains the general law of the development of soul, human progress, and the law of changeability of quadras. This law flows out of interrelationships among 4 building blocks: Ego, Id, Superego and Superid. There are 6 conflicting interrelationships - oppositions: Ego - Id, Ego - Superego, Ego - Superid, Id - Superid, Id - Superego and Superego - Superid.

The most important opposition is between the blocks Ego (free will/self-control) and Superid (dependence, obedience, necessity), where the creative power of Mind is opposed to the destructive force of Time.

This opposition between the irrational individual spiritual force -Superid (as known and experienced in the state of sleep, dreaming and imagination, subjectivism) and the rational individual personified or embodied force Ego (reality, the objectively existing system, a man, objectivism) is the original driving force of progress. This opposition is the basis of the law of the changeability of quadras. This oppostion explains the opposite motion of swastikas towards each. Blocks Ego and Superid are the blocks of dynamics, blocks Superego and ID - blocks of statics. In more detail the opposition of statics and dynamics will be described in connection with the development of personality.

The dynamic opposition Ego - Superid is opposed to the static opposition Superego - ID, which plays not less important role in the spiritual development and indicates the fight between the conscience, the commitment and the individual needs: Self-sacrifice versus Selfishness. (As you noticed, oppositions were expressed as polar to each other characteristics. The definition of each block is a complex one and contains positive and negative components. In order to describe the interaction between the two blocks only one of the components of the definition is highlighted).

Opposition Superego - Superid determines the contradiction between the collective and individual spiritual needs, where the spirit or the system of the moral values of an individual is opposed to collective intellectual values.

Opposition Ego - Id reflects the contradiction between the irrational force of "animal" instincts which maintain life as collective form of existence and carrying the pleasure of satisfaction of the animal needs on one hand and the rational control of the use of this force by individual. Ego is individual control, expressed in the free will of man. This opposition can be defined as the force of will against the force of desires or asceticism - hedonism.

Opposition Ego - Superego reflects the internal contradiction of a free choice between control of the system and service to the system, acting on behalf of a free will with or without taking conscience into account. The will of man (Son) is opposed to the will of his creator - god (Father). This opposition which can be associated with Father-Son conflict is not rigid. Superego is the rational collective spiritual force, which is connected with the concepts of common sense and wisdom. God does not punish, but forgives and awaits the return of Son on his good will. This constitutes a qualitative difference between the blocks Superego and Superid. Superid has got a meaning of the boomerang and is the consequence of applying free will without the consideration of collective rational needs (Superego).


Opposition Id - Superid reflects the contradiction between the thrill of life and authority, the healthy animal instincts on one hand and the estrangement, the desire to escape into the secure world of fantasy, peace and illusion on the other. The collective irrational embodied force resists the individual irrational spiritual force : Life - Death.

Overcoming and balancing these oppositions we acquire the freedom of spirit and find the Truth, about which spoke Jesus if we develop in a positive direction.

Model distributes the functions between the blocks as follows

Ego: + Е - - Р +...

Id: + F - - I +

Superego - R + + L -

Superid: - S+ + T -

Accordingly types are distributed as follows:


Ego types - EJ: +ESFJ, ENFJ -, - ESTJ, ENTJ+

Idtypes- EP: +ESFP, ESTP -, - ENFP, ENTP+

Superego types -IJ: - ISFJ, INFJ+, +ISTJ, INTJ-

-Superidtypes -IP: -ISFP, ISTP + +INFP, INTP -



The development of personality by model B


First of all I would like to mention that:
1. Model B is an agreement with Yung's assumption that conscious functions originate in unconscious functions.
2. Model also assumes that conscious functions not only originate in unconscious but also return into unconscious which is used as storage of information and a place where the information is transformed and is delivered back into conscious.

Soul can be compared with the constantly changing flow of consciousness. The spiritual essence of man is subjected to the changes, which have short-term and long term nature. The soul of man goes through the following stages of the development of conscious:

1. Eegg of butterfly is associated with the development of a child in the womb of a mother and the block Superid. Psychological types, whose program functions originate in this block, will especially value comfort and protection from the external influences.
2. Caterpillar is associated with the period of the rapid development of a child and the block Id.
3. Chrysalis symbolizes the end of thechildhood, the beginning of teenage which is completed by the entrance into adulthood and teenage crisis. The transformation of child into adult corresponds to the block Ego.


4. Butterfly is - a colourful stage of adulthood, productivity, confidence, fulfilment, wisdom. This stage is associated with the block Superego.

5. Old age is associated with extinction of vital processes, withdrawal from the active life and responsibility, by growing dependence on others and the block Superid. Preparation to the exit into Afterlife.

6. This stage is associated with death and the Judging day.
Devil has got power to take away a soul into the kingdom of shadows. It is possible to assume that the culpable soul completes her development. If a soul is forgiven - it continues its development and enters the seventh stage which belongs to Afterlife.
As you know Muslims have the sacred ritual of going round the "House of God" 7 times counter- clockwise (http://www.3dkabah.com/). The building is covered with black silk and resembles the form of the symbol extraverted logic in socionics.


Forms of consciousness by model B


First of all I would like to note that the author connects the concept of mind with the rationality and the consciousness, and sensations and feelings - with irrationality and subconscious and unconscious. The author also distinguishes between individual and collective conscious and subconscious. The theory of the different forms of conscious is described in general terms and needs further elaboration. Changes in the conscious can be examined at two levels - at the level of the momentum and a long -term process. The mechanisms of a change in the consciousness may be not the same at different levels. The mechanism of changes in conscious at any particular moment will be related to interfunctional dynamics which will not be described at this stage. However, it is assumed that changes in the conscious at any the specific moment may have only temporary nature while the repetition of certain processes can lead to more stable long-term changes in the consciousness both positive and negative.

Collective conscious (CC) is collective knowledge, the experience of generations preserved in the books, the traditions, the culture, the legislation and so forth.
AS we know CC is in the process of a constant change.

Collective subconscious (CS) or collective unconscious according to Young is associated with the idea about existence of super-natural, spiritual world and knowledge about this world is available to us supernatural experiences, through sensations, inspiration, enlightment, dreaming state, etc.

Individual conscious (IC) relates to the awarenes of the Self- as separate from the environment; the awarenes of the individual flow of conscious, executive power and perception yourself as a rational being.

Individual subconsciousness/unconscious (IS/IU)) corresponds to the retention of the individual experiences and knowledge about the world in the form of sensations, images and feelings.