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Thread: discussion on smilexian socionics

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    Default discussion on smilexian socionics

    Interesting old thread. I'll have to work through it...

    And I think I know the major flaw of Smilexian socionics now:
    Everything he writes strikes me as ENTp. to the core...
    His self-typings: ESFj -> ENFj -> ENTj -> ESTj. None of those types would ever write stuff like that. So the reason for his idea of changing types is that he simply is not judging but perceiving. That's why he tried to see himself as ESFj (didn't work), then ENFj (didn't work, either), afterwards ENTj and ESTj in the end.

    Reinin dichotomies are sheer . People on this forum who are very interested in them:
    Labcoat - INTj
    Crispy - INTj
    Brilliand - INTj
    hkkmr - ENTp
    Pied Piper - ENTp
    me - INTj
    People who aren't Alpha NTs don't seem to be interested...

    edit: Expat and FDG - ENTj
    Last edited by JohnDo; 10-27-2010 at 01:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    Interesting old thread. I'll have to work through it...

    And I think I know the major flaw of Smilexian socionics now:
    Everything he writes strikes me as ENTp. to the core...
    His self-typings: ESFj -> ENTj -> ESTj. None of those typs would ever write stuff like that...
    Such a vapid response among a thread of reasonable material.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Do
    And I think I know the major flaw of Smilexian socionics now:
    Everything he writes strikes me as ENTp. to the core...
    His self-typings: ESFj -> ENFj -> ENTj -> ESTj. None of those types would ever write stuff like that. So the reason for his idea of changing types is that he simply is not judging but perceiving. That's why he tried to see himself as ESFj (didn't work), then ENFj (didn't work, either), afterwards ENTj and ESTj in the end.
    Patently ridiculous. There is something wrong with your brain.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Do
    Reinin dichotomies are sheer . People on this forum who are very interested in them:
    My interest in them is very shallow, and none of the Ti types I know had quite as much of an obsession with them as smilingeyes, who, for all intents and purposes, is an obvious and unproblematic ExTj.

    Reinin dichotomies are face value distinctions without semantic content. They're extremely mentally unintensive when used in isolation. Ti deals more with actual structures that require inferrence steps to be arrived at. Just calling something by a name and then identifying it by it's surface characteristics is textbook Te.

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    I'm not and I'm interested in it...
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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    Patently ridiculous. There is something wrong with your brain.
    Sure. That's why I'm into socionics...

    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    Reinin dichotomies are face value distinctions without semantic content. They're extremely mentally unintensive when used in isolation.
    I disagree. All of them are very useful to explain certain characteristics. Some of them are even very useful for typing.

    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    Ti deals more with actual structures that require inferrence steps to be arrived at. Just calling something by a name and then identifying it by it's surface characteristics is textbook Te.
    - Reinin, who suggested them, is Ti ego.
    - Augusta, who explored their content, was Ti ego.
    - Gulenko, who works a lot with them, is Ti ego.

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    - Reinin, who suggested them, is Ti ego.
    He self types as INTp. The claim you can type him better from your position than he can from his is impossible to take seriously.

    - Augusta, who explored their content, was Ti ego.
    She has explicitly said they are bogus, a "false hypothesis".

    - Gulenko, who works a lot with them, is Ti ego.
    They are of no more than marginal importance to his work.

    I disagree. All of them are very useful to explain certain characteristics. Some of them are even very useful for typing.
    This chimes in with what I said. These dichotomies are very practical typing tools. This is what makes them "useful". Practicality and usefulness is what Te is all about.

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    Eh, I don't feel I should be contributing to this conversation as it's perhaps out my depth, I know very little about Reinin and some other matters.

    However, I think that this is interesting, on the subject of Reinin dichotomies being Ti or Te, and whether it's something only Ti types are interesting in,

    Here's Ganins take on them, a leading Ti type The whole lot of useless nothing

    Where he explores the 'system' more, creating what strikes me as a Ti 'system' for Reinin dichotomies, the theory, building blocks of it etc... eventually producing 667 dichotomies.

    Smilingeyes on the other hand, simply uses them, I would say the Te is therefore more pronounced than the Ti.

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    He self types as INTp.
    I've heard he selftypes ENTp. Source?

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    I've heard he selftypes ENTp.
    You've heard wrongly.

    Where he explores the 'system' more, creating what strikes me as a Ti 'system' for Reinin dichotomies, the theory, building blocks of it etc... eventually producing 667 dichotomies.
    His argument is that something doesn't magically become a significant distinction just because you can give it a name. However, most of the new distinctions he suggests are much more indirect derivatives than the Reinin dichotomies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    You've heard wrongly.
    Yeah. I guess they're wrong overthere at socioniko.net when they say that Reinin selftypes as Don Quijote.



    Соционический тип: тот редкий случай, когда многие соционики не согласны с одним из основателей соционики; относят его к типу Критик (Бальзак), тогда как сам Григорий Романович определяет себя как Искатель (Дон Кихот).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor View Post

    Соционический тип: тот редкий случай, когда многие соционики не согласны с одним из основателей соционики; относят его к типу Критик (Бальзак), тогда как сам Григорий Романович определяет себя как Искатель (Дон Кихот).
    Of course, of course
    ILE "Searcher"
    Socionics: ENTp
    DCNH: Dominant --> perhaps Normalizing
    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
    Astrological sign: Aquarius

    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

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    Yeah. I guess they're wrong overthere at socioniko.net when they say that Reinin selftypes as Don Quijote.
    If the guy changed his type halfway through his studies of socionics, nothing of what he does and says should be taken as indicative of anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    If the guy changed his type halfway through his studies of socionics...
    Did he?

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    Yeah, he used to self type as INTp. Probably still does even if some people are confused.

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    Source?

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    I'd have been able to quote something from the forum back in those times, but the vandalist deletions make that impossible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    He self types as INTp. The claim you can type him better from your position than he can from his is impossible to take seriously.
    I heared the same, but when I confronted Olga and Expat (who met him IRL) with it, they said 1) no, he did not selftype as ILI
    2) he looks like a stereotypical ILE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    This chimes in with what I said. These dichotomies are very practical typing tools. This is what makes them "useful". Practicality and usefulness is what Te is all about.
    There really isn't anything Te about reinventing a complex classification system formed from your own logical assertions that can't be measured against tangible material...

    Te absorbs information, storing it, it doesn't take that data and structure it to be internally consistent, that's Ti. Both can be used to accomplish something practical and useful, than again practically can be subjective
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marie84 View Post
    There really isn't anything Te about reinventing a complex classification system formed from your own logical assertions that can't be measured against tangible material...

    Te absorbs information, storing it, it doesn't take that data and structure it to be internally consistent, that's Ti. Both can be used to accomplish something practical and useful, than again practically can be subjective
    There's nothing complex about reinin dichotomies. Solving a 2nd order system of pdes is complex. Reinin dichotomies are simple descriptions, their only complex facet is observational (i.e. isolating traits which pertain to a single dichotomy, eliminating any other influence).
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Smilingeyes started out just using the reinin dichotomies by applying a very straightforward, practical, face-value interpretation of them and typing simply by matching the existing descriptions with what he observed. It was only when that approach led to imperfections that he started expanding his theories with regard to them. No one claims Te types never use Ti to complement their base function.

    That initial practical approach really has very little to do with Ti. It doesn't even involve much thinking. More like deciding for it's own sake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marie84 View Post
    There really isn't anything Te about reinventing a complex classification system formed from your own logical assertions that can't be measured against tangible material...

    Te absorbs information, storing it, it doesn't take that data and structure it to be internally consistent, that's Ti. Both can be used to accomplish something practical and useful, than again practically can be subjective
    Did you not hear that he made something practical and useful? How Te is that? What is wrong with you? Don't you tire yourself of accusing him of not being Te? Having things accurate, structured, practical, useful is all about Judging types, and most importantly of Te.

    @Minde

    How long did that take you guys?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    There's nothing complex about reinin dichotomies. Solving a 2nd order system of pdes is complex. Reinin dichotomies are simple descriptions, their only complex facet is observational (i.e. isolating traits which pertain to a single dichotomy, eliminating any other influence).
    This isn't overtly complex? http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ted-edits.html

    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    Smilingeyes started out just using the reinin dichotomies by applying a very straightforward, practical, face-value interpretation of them and typing simply by matching the existing descriptions with what he observed. It was only when that approach led to imperfections that he started expanding his theories with regard to them.
    No one claims Te types never use Ti to complement their base function.
    You're still describing Ti, Ti with no Ne to be specific. That entire process of removing structural ambiguity to create a more logically consistent one has nothing to do with how Te works, at least I have never read anything that suggests so

    That initial practical approach really has very little to do with Ti. It doesn't even involve much thinking. More like deciding for it's own sake.
    This is where I must strongly agree to disagree, because I don't see anything practical in taking a bunch of theoretical information from a system and than revamping it into yet another theoretical system that can only be measured for accuracy by your own subjectivity
    Well actually I think I'm being biased, since Ti can use that type of mental organization for productive purposes
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    @Minde

    How long did that take you guys?
    I don't remember exactly. At least a couple of months, though. Less than a year. Somewhere in there.
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    I agree with Marie - Smilingeyes's model is simply an effort at squaring the circle - and a suspect circle at that. I've never been able to see the practicality of it - it just seems to be joining the dots to their logical conclusion without actually achieving anything except some mental satisfaction.

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    No, it's mostly just volume. Find me one Ti type that creates lists of descriptive material as extensive has his. Only 5% of his time was ever spent on creating a system out of these dichotomies. The rest of it was making the descriptions fit. The reason why his system turned out to be bogus is exactly that he didn't give the Ti part it's proper dues.

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    This isn't overtly complex? Easy-to-use behaviour tracker - resurrected (with edits)
    You'll notice that smilingeyes suggests using a "transactional analysis" like approach to socionics in that thread, interpreting what a person is doing in terms of socionics functions rather than in terms of what the person is. This is exactly what the difference between Static (Ti) and Dynamic (Te) functions amounts to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    I'm not and I'm interested in it...
    Agreed.

    I feel that the whole purpose of Smilexian Socionics is not to formalize the system or even to make it necessarily cohesive. Rather, his intention was to make use of the available systems and bring it together in such a way as to quickly type someone. There is definitely a practical intention out of all of this...dare I even say a Te one? Well, I believe so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Greeter View Post
    Agreed.

    I feel that the whole purpose of Smilexian Socionics is not to formalize the system or even to make it necessarily cohesive. Rather, his intention was to make use of the available systems and bring it together in such a way as to quickly type someone. There is definitely a practical intention out of all of this...dare I even say a Te one? Well, I believe so.
    And I agree as well; I met a really nice ESTj, who is currently in a relationship, but he offered to be the photographer of my theoretical project; he doesn't care much about me trying to make a system of something, nor does this person care much about my ideas and theories, albeit finds them very interesting; his aim and goal is to be useful, to utalize his skills as a photographer and work within my system (the one I have availed for him to do what he does best, to work). I think with his help I can focus on my project being objective, taking me out of triviality of the project, which is currently in my head, mostly, and providing him with satisfying practical pursuit of the actual objective effort...WORK. *He won't be getting paid*

    This is something that people here don't seem to understand about Te types, they want to take theory and turn it into objective, useful tool, guide, kit, call it whatever; anything that might lend itself to use in the physical sense, not in the dream or theory sense.

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    Are there any other parts to this? I feel like I'm missing the beginning?

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    No, it's mostly just volume. Find me one Ti type that creates lists of descriptive material as extensive has his.
    huitzilopochtli

    Real life example? Chris Langan http://www.iscid.org/papers/Langan_CTMU_092902.pdf

    Only 5% of his time was ever spent on creating a system out of these dichotomies. The rest of it was making the descriptions fit. The reason why his system turned out to be bogus is exactly that he didn't give the Ti part it's proper dues.
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    Speaking of Smilex, I think I have his identical for my Data Structures class.

    Here's a pic.

    Last edited by Park; 10-31-2010 at 06:10 AM.
    Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.

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    Nice sweater

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marie84 View Post
    huitzilopochtli
    Not a Ti type. Probably INTp...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marie84 View Post
    huitzilopochtli
    He changes his type frequently, pehaps he's not Ti.
    Real life example? Chris Langan http://www.iscid.org/papers/Langan_CTMU_092902.pdf
    I think he's ESFp

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    huitzilopochtli
    Not a Ti type. Probably INTp...
    He changes his type frequently, pehaps he's not Ti.
    Yeah, consistency is not the first thing I'd ascribe to his character.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parkster View Post
    Speaking of Smilex, I think I have his identical for my Data Structures class.

    Here's a pic.

    Is this a picture of smilingeyes?

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    Yes, it is a pic of Smilingeyes. Just look at that bribing smile and correct your stance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Yes, it is a pic of Smilingeyes. Just look at that bribing smile and correct your stance.
    Humm...that would make him SLI

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Humm...that would make him SLI
    Are you sure you don't need a 45 side shot to confirm that?
    Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
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    I split the old thread for the sake of keeping that article less bloated and more to the point.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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