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Thread: Quadra Mottos

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    Default Quadra Mottos

    According to Gulenko, something like this:

    Beta: to suffer and conquer.

    Delta: to help and protect.

    Gamma: to cooperate and acquire (or attain)

    does anyone know Gulenko's motto for Alpha?

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    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    What's your source?

    I'm all for peace but I don't like working in teams. Also, acquire what? That's pretty ambiguous.
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    Creepy-male

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    http://www.socionika.com/agenda.html

    "To reflect and to delight in." for Alpha.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    What's your source?

    I'm all for peace but I don't like working in teams. Also, acquire what? That's pretty ambiguous.
    Material wealth .

    Hehe I don't really know. The object of desire could be anything Se is going for I'd imagine.

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    Gamma: To prosper with your loved ones.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    ά - To reflect and delight in
    β - To suffer and conquer
    γ - To collaborate and acquire
    δ - To protect and help

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    To prosper with loved ones seems very much what Gamma is. To collaborate and acquire seems fitting too.
    Gamma is very much about material wealth, as far as I can see IRL.

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    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by None View Post
    Gamma is very much about material wealth, as far as I can see IRL.
    *questions my type*

    Ok, now I'm real tight with money because I don't like spending it thoughtlessly. I'm also kind of a hoarder. But in no way am I obsessed with being rich and territorial, aside from having freedom and being able to sustain my needs and limited wants.

    "To reflect and delight in"

    ?
    I love to ponder and reflect on life but sitting around talking gets boring. I'd rather do something exciting.

    Damnit.
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    Stereotypes

    How about individual type descriptions, even subtype descriptions. They're all distinct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    *questions my type*

    Ok, now I'm real tight with money because I don't like spending it thoughtlessly. I'm also kind of a hoarder. But in no way am I obsessed with being rich and territorial, aside from having freedom and being able to sustain my needs and limited wants.

    "To reflect and delight in"

    ?
    I love to ponder and reflect on life but sitting around talking gets boring. I'd rather do something exciting.

    Damnit.
    It may help to think of the quadra mottos not as type diagnostics, but rather as interesting points of reflection once you've learned your type and the theory.

    EDIT

    Or as starting points for discussing people's self-typings with them. Like, "How do you see the Gamma motto applying to yourself as an ILI?"

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    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
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    Amen to suffer and conquer. Beta's motto is to live, and that fully. Experience everything. Touch everything. Know everything. Feel everything. What is else (not to be overcome) to suffer and to conquer? The only thing I would add (being dramatic/poetic) is: "to suffer and to conquer, and thereby to love."
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

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    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanks Arthur View Post
    Like, "How do you see the Gamma motto applying to yourself as an ILI?"
    When I try to apply it to myself, I get 'suppressing negative sentiments to get the job done' and also 'wanting to achieve status/acceptance/recognition/competence'.

    In contrast, if delight means pleasure, I can relate somewhat, but I couldn't sit and enjoy fine dining 24/7 when the rest of the world is starving. I'm more serious than that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    Amen to suffer and conquer. Beta's motto is to live, and that fully. Experience everything. Touch everything. Know everything. Feel everything. What is else (not to be overcome) to suffer and to conquer? The only thing I would add (being dramatic/poetic) is: "to suffer and to conquer, and thereby to love."
    That's mainly a mix of the Beta extroverts, being the nearly attainable outer world for introverts. Leaving out suffering, overcoming, art, poetry, etc of course. Romanticism and imagination is the main focus of IEIs, where significance manifests internally, structure, theory and common sense for LSIs. SLE, in large part to live fully, experience everything, touch everything. EIEs in large part to feel everything, be dramatic, to suffer and conquer. HA seems like a bigger drive. These are just a few things, anyway. I could go on and on, but might be better to just read individual descriptions of the types.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    Amen to suffer and conquer. Beta's motto is to live, and that fully. Experience everything. Touch everything. Know everything. Feel everything. What is else (not to be overcome) to suffer and to conquer? The only thing I would add (being dramatic/poetic) is: "to suffer and to conquer, and thereby to love."
    Yeh I guess thats why it is clear im in opposite quadra of Beta or the very least opposite to its values. I never saw suffering as a positive thing, im very averse to any kind of suffering. And every time I hear that suffering is positive and somehow makes us more human and whatnot it makes me eyeroll . Conquering part is meh but at least I understand it although I much more prefer cooperation.

    As for Delta ones they sound ok, although cheezy but more or less as cheezy as others.
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    I guess each word is a dyad (or whatever the name is):

    Reflect (TiNe) Delight in (FeSi)
    Suffer (NiFe) Conquer (SeTi)
    Collaborate (NiTe) Acquire (SeFi)
    Protect (FiNe) Help (TeSi)

    These quadra mottos are... rather vague and incomplete. Not bad though.

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    Beta people often strike me as idealistic, and I think they rebel in the off chance that whatever's created from it, if anything, is somehow better.

    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris
    Amen to suffer and conquer. Beta's motto is to live, and that fully. Experience everything. Touch everything. Know everything. Feel everything. What is else (not to be overcome) to suffer and to conquer? The only thing I would add (being dramatic/poetic) is: "to suffer and to conquer, and thereby to love."
    Quote Originally Posted by None
    Beta: to suffer and conquer.
    My understanding is that no one likes to suffer, however the difference for Betas is that they are willing to suffer for a purpose, not just aimless suffering. The purpose for Beta STs comes from the Beta NFs - their Ni helps them to believe in their fantasies, gives them purpose and meaning so that they can strive for it, while their Fe helps to keep their spirits up during these hard times.

    A Beta suffering for no reason, no purpose is a dying Beta.

    I think that suffering for no particular reason or cause is more in line with Delta. For instance, if you go to companies, most of the positions of the lower levels, the 'dogsbodies' are comprised mainly of Delta types. They don't need that aspiration to achieve something better, some purpose, instead they are quite happy to go in day after day, with the menial tasks, happily getting caught up in the daily details of it all. You might find some Betas at this level, but they aren't really 'there', their mind is somewhere else, something else to idealise to or aspire to, rather than the daily grind going to weekly, monthly and forever.

    Correct me if i'm wrong?
    Last edited by Words; 11-04-2010 at 09:58 AM.

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    To which quadra belongs Robocop?

    ILE "Searcher"
    Socionics: ENTp
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    Quote Originally Posted by Words View Post
    My understanding is that no one likes to suffer, however the difference for Betas is that they are willing to suffer for a purpose, not just aimless suffering. The purpose for Beta STs comes from the Beta NFs - their Ni helps them to believe in their fantasies, gives them purpose and meaning so that they can strive for it, while their Fe helps to keep their spirits up during these hard times.

    A Beta suffering for no reason, no purpose is a dying Beta.

    I think that suffering for no particular reason or cause is more in line with Delta. For instance, if you go to companies, most of the positions of the lower levels, the 'dogsbodies' are comprised mainly of Delta types. They don't need that aspiration to achieve something better, some purpose, instead they are quite happy to go in day after day, with the menial tasks, happily getting caught up in the daily details of it all. You might find some Betas at this level, but they aren't really 'there', their mind is somewhere else, something else to idealise to or aspire to, rather than the daily grind going to weekly, monthly and forever.

    Correct me if i'm wrong?
    I think your descriptions of Beta and Delta are generally accurate, but your understanding of suffering is a little off. Deltas who work these "menial" tasks are not suffering -- they actually enjoy a hard day's work. There's no negative emotions being experienced there. Betas, on the other hand, while they of course prefer happiness to suffering, would rather suffer than feel nothing at all. Intensity of emotion is what's important to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    To which quadra belongs Robocop?

    Funny you should mention that, I just watched that movie for the first time the other day. I typed Robocop as SLI.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post

    Funny you should mention that, I just watched that movie for the first time the other day. I typed Robocop as SLI.
    You mean the 1987 version?

    I thought he/it was ESI, but now your SLI makes more sense to me

    BTW

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking
    I think your descriptions of Beta and Delta are generally accurate, but your understanding of suffering is a little off. Deltas who work these "menial" tasks are not suffering -- they actually enjoy a hard day's work. There's no negative emotions being experienced there. Betas, on the other hand, while they of course prefer happiness to suffering, would rather suffer than feel nothing at all. Intensity of emotion is what's important to them.
    Yeah, it always seems a problem to me, using one word eg suffer to describe such a big concept. Personally I don't like any type of suffering that I can think of.

    Perhaps in Beta, in an emotional sense, the NFs like to suffer over feeling nothing, and the STs like to make the other suffer, as it shows they feel something, rather than nothing. Although when it gets a bit deeper, eg like this, my understanding of it becomes vague.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    To which quadra belongs Robocop?

    LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by Words View Post
    Beta people often strike me as idealistic, and I think they rebel in the off chance that whatever's created from it, if anything, is somehow better.
    (this is the first time I've used that multi-quote feature so forgive me, I think these are in the wrong order)

    I think you could be right about that. But of course we know that what's created from it IS BETTER!!!! lol

    My understanding is that no one likes to suffer, however the difference for Betas is that they are willing to suffer for a purpose, not just aimless suffering. The purpose for Beta STs comes from the Beta NFs - their Ni helps them to believe in their fantasies, gives them purpose and meaning so that they can strive for it, while their Fe helps to keep their spirits up during these hard times.
    yes yes yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Words View Post
    Perhaps in Beta, in an emotional sense, the NFs like to suffer over feeling nothing, and the STs like to make the other suffer, as it shows they feel something, rather than nothing.
    I don't think the beta STs *like* to make the other suffer. They are able, however, to contribute to the intensity of any experience, good or bad. And they enjoy these intense emotional experiences that kind of mark their progress through life, to their goal(s). They enjoy recounting that later, even when it was really bad and it stands out in their memory as being an important happening. This is not to say that betas look for suffering, only that they're often willing to pay the price to achieve their vision, even if that means lots of hardship. My brother and SIL (IEI/SLE) own a business and have been self-employed their entire working lives. It's been a HUGE rollercoaster. They've been successful but they've also had lots of dramatic set-backs. But they absolutely would not have it any other way. Working for someone else is too boring and limiting for them. Their spirits would stagnate in that type of environment.

    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    Amen to suffer and conquer. Beta's motto is to live, and that fully. Experience everything. Touch everything. Know everything. Feel everything. What is else (not to be overcome) to suffer and to conquer? The only thing I would add (being dramatic/poetic) is: "to suffer and to conquer, and thereby to love."
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    As I see it, Betas need to live life as a grandiose epic event. Like Hitler with his dramatic Wagner operas and brutal wars of grandiose destruction, suffering and finally, death LOL.

    But really, this whole Beta mentality strikes me as sadistic-masochistic. They want? to suffer (masochism) and to conquer (sadism). Their 'conquering' often comes in the form of stepping on the 'weak', the ones 'who didn´t suffer' like they did. LOL such a load of BS to me.

    Anyway I need a favor from an SLE teacher and I don´t know how it's better to ask him for that. Perhaps you can help me with that, redbaron?

    I know Betas hate being ordered what to do, and I'm a commanding LSE, so often we do clash because they don't enjoy my way of asking things, which is very much getting irritated and telling them 'look, just do this and this, please, ok?'. I guess it won't work with this SLE teacher. Should I pretend to be suffering, sad and stuff like that? Would perhaps sadness and drama make his heart softer, or would it show 'weakness' so that things get even worse?

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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    In contrast, if delight means pleasure, I can relate somewhat, but I couldn't sit and enjoy fine dining 24/7 when the rest of the world is starving. I'm more serious than that.
    Yeah I think the same way and I'm alpha. "To reflect and delight in" is the motto that probably fits me the closest but it doesn't mean I never think/do any of the other ones. Sometimes I feel some guilt towards overdoing my motto as if I should be doing something more productive in society. And I certainly don't want to experience hedonistic pleasure if its going to be at someone else's expense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ssmall View Post
    Yeh I guess thats why it is clear im in opposite quadra of Beta or the very least opposite to its values. I never saw suffering as a positive thing, im very averse to any kind of suffering. And every time I hear that suffering is positive and somehow makes us more human and whatnot it makes me eyeroll . Conquering part is meh but at least I understand it although I much more prefer cooperation.

    As for Delta ones they sound ok, although cheezy but more or less as cheezy as others.
    Yeah, I first read that beta motto and I was thinking, who in their right mind would want to suffer? I can see where Silverchris is coming from but that it so not me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    Betas, on the other hand, while they of course prefer happiness to suffering, would rather suffer than feel nothing at all. Intensity of emotion is what's important to them.
    I think I'd rather feel nothing at all than suffer. I avoid intensity of the negative sort. Which is why I'm not beta and I'm clearly a -Fe valuer.
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    Gas station nerd = LII
    an INTj would have kicked those thugs' asses.

    And blow the place up themselves cause it looks cool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ssmall View Post
    Yeh I guess thats why it is clear im in opposite quadra of Beta or the very least opposite to its values. I never saw suffering as a positive thing, im very averse to any kind of suffering. And every time I hear that suffering is positive and somehow makes us more human and whatnot it makes me eyeroll . Conquering part is meh but at least I understand it although I much more prefer cooperation.
    My sentiments exactly.

    (Even though I do feel like sometimes it is necessary to suffer, or at least to deprive yourself from certain things and pleasures in order to accomplish things.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by None View Post
    Anyway I need a favor from an SLE teacher and I don´t know how it's better to ask him for that. Perhaps you can help me with that, redbaron?

    I know Betas hate being ordered what to do, and I'm a commanding LSE, so often we do clash because they don't enjoy my way of asking things, which is very much getting irritated and telling them 'look, just do this and this, please, ok?'. I guess it won't work with this SLE teacher. Should I pretend to be suffering, sad and stuff like that? Would perhaps sadness and drama make his heart softer, or would it show 'weakness' so that things get even worse?
    yeah whatever you do, don't start out irritated! You need to approach him with a smile and ask NICELY. Make a joke if you can. No need to be suffering or sad, lol! Just be very appreciative of him and polite.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    yeah whatever you do, don't start out irritated! You need to approach him with a smile and ask NICELY. Make a joke if you can. No need to be suffering or sad, lol! Just be very appreciative of him and polite.
    Thanks a lot, next thursday I'll meet him again and ask him for the favor in this way... like upbeat and polite. You're so nice an IEI.

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    More on Betas and Suffering.

    Perhaps it also helps to point out that betas see suffering as an inevitable consequence of experience (full experience), and as such, the fact that we continue to suffer is proof that we are still alive (that is, still capable of full experience). The only difference between SLEs and IEIs is that SLEs seek to experience or know everything external, whereas IEIs seek to experience or know everything internal.

    Betas don't necessarily enjoy suffering as such... but suffering is the best route to experience, I guess.

    The rebellion is just a natural consequence of seeing the chaos in things. When you notice how chaotic things are, regardless of how sane and secure they seem to be, you're eventually going to reflect that chaos in some way. The act of faith is to believe in a deeper level of order behind the chaos ("deeper magic from before the dawn of time")... but in order to get there you have to go into the abyss and keep tunneling...

    Now that I think about it, both suffering and conquering are seen as inevitable by beta quadra values (especially beta irrational): conquering is necessary because things will be in a constant state of fighting, and since you're always going to be fighting, you might as well be on top.

    Also, re: happiness vs. suffering, betas do prefer happiness to suffering, but they also prefer "truth" (in the idealistic Ni sense) to happiness. So if I must lie to myself to be content, I will refuse that, and rather experience the full suffering in order to experience the full truth.

    Not every beta is an end times prophet, of course. This has to do with deep values, how you ultimately determine to live your life. Shrug. I'm not going to talk about this any more 'cause I'm not making sense. Sometimes I wish I could just sit in solution and think, and have my thoughts in their raw form pumped out directly into other people's brains, and they as a team would figure out the best way to communicate the thoughts in language.

    Betas are never quite sure whether deltas are intuitively aware of the deeper magic from before the dawn of time (as we are intuitively aware of the deep magic from the dawn of time), or if they're just distracted by glittering surfaces. Especially INFjs. They're confusing.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

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    sc, that made perfect sense to me.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    Beta NFs are pretty often on the wimpy side. I really don't think they gravitate to suffering all that much.

    Beta's policy with regard to strife seems to focus on the social kind of it more than on the impersonal kind...

    Delta STs (ESTjs in particular) can be pretty good at withstanding the more weatherly kind of suffering caused by work and survivalism.

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    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    Beta NFs are pretty often on the wimpy side. I really don't think they gravitate to suffering all that much.

    Beta's policy with regard to strife seems to focus on the social kind of it more than on the impersonal kind...

    Delta STs (ESTjs in particular) can be pretty good at withstanding the more weatherly kind of suffering caused by work and survivalism.
    eyeroll. Internal suffering. Suffering isn't just weather. Suffering happens in the soul and sometimes has no identifiable object (i..e, cause) at all, contra T.S. Eliot. Beta NFs very much gravitate towards internal suffering and even prolong it at times. This is covered in a post I made a long time ago about some song by a delta NF.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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    redbaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    Beta NFs are pretty often on the wimpy side. I really don't think they gravitate to suffering all that much.
    appearing wimpy on the outside does not equal being wimpy on the inside, emotionally. I'm extremely submissive externally but I've been often admired for inner strength, partly because I can face pain and redeem it into something useful, etc. (see enneagram 4 also)
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    eyeroll. Internal suffering. Suffering isn't just weather. Suffering happens in the soul and sometimes has no identifiable object (i..e, cause) at all, contra T.S. Eliot. Beta NFs very much gravitate towards internal suffering and even prolong it at times. This is covered in a post I made a long time ago about some song by a delta NF.
    You agree with me that ascribing a general gravitation to suffering to Beta is wrong because there is also the "weatherly" kind, yet you roll your eyes at my message...?

    Next time I find myself in a snowstorm and decide whether I take along the ESTj or the INFp to find my way out there, you can have the INFp. I'm not taking my chances.

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    redbaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    You agree with me that ascribing a general gravitation to suffering to Beta is wrong because there is also the "weatherly" kind, yet you roll your eyes at my message...?

    Next time I find myself in a snowstorm and decide whether I take along the ESTj or the INFp to find my way out there, you can have the INFp. I'm not taking my chances.
    we're not effing wimpy. certainly not in an emergency situation. (tho it helps to have someone with Se to tell us what to do). and you know what--if you had taken the INFp, you wouldn't be in the snowstorm to start with because they would have seen it coming and stopped somewhere for a hot chocolate.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    Delta STs (ESTjs in particular) can be pretty good at withstanding the more weatherly kind of suffering caused by work and survivalism.
    Yeah well that kind of thing both base are probably the best at. Although I generally think that's not identified with "suffering", but rather with "struggling", perhaps.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    we're not effing wimpy. certainly not in an emergency situation. (tho it helps to have someone with Se to tell us what to do). and you know what--if you had taken the INFp, you wouldn't be in the snowstorm to start with because they would have seen it coming and stopped somewhere for a hot chocolate.
    Sorry, you don't get the strategical, factual kind of foresight. That skill is reserved for INTp. All your Ni does is make you realize in advance that being a snowstorm would be, like, really nasty.

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    Darn Socks Director Abbie's Avatar
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    I'll try making up some mottos.

    Beta: "We are the champions."

    Gamma: "Pay me."

    Alpha: "Numerical charades, anyone?"

    Delta: "I'm home!"

    ESTj
    1w2 sp/so 1-2-6
    Brilliand's Younger Sister
    Squishy's Older Sister

    Johari Nohari

    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    I'll try making up some mottos.

    Beta: "We are the champions."

    Gamma: "Pay me."

    Alpha: "Numerical charades, anyone?"

    Delta: "I'm home!"
    You suck.

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    Darn Socks Director Abbie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor View Post
    You suck.
    Explain.

    ESTj
    1w2 sp/so 1-2-6
    Brilliand's Younger Sister
    Squishy's Older Sister

    Johari Nohari

    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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