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Thread: Great Silent Majority

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    Default Great Silent Majority

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    LOL

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    Creepy-male

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    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    I guess that's a good way to deal with problems, yeah.
    I was told the world was being overturned when 9/11 happened.

    Yet, here I am to post this.

    Life continues the same.

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    six turnin', four burnin' stevENTj's Avatar
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    OK, the one thing I'll comment on here is the media bias angle since that's a topic of some interest to me.

    The answer is that DUH, of course our media is biased, and anybody paying the least bit attention knows that. Guess what? So are most other media outlets. I don't know of any 100% objective and straight down the middle media source, do you? You have to get your news from different sources with different slants these days to get the full picture, and even then it can get pretty murky. You never really know.

    As for these supposed atrocities buried in the leaked documents, the biggest reason why our media might not report on that is because a) they're arguable, half-truths, out of context, or otherwise not quite the whole story, or b) because the Democrats are in power and the media is overwhelmingly liberal and don't like to air stories that would be damaging to Democrats. Personally, my guess is that it's probably a mix of both. Similar angle is that a lot of the continued fallout from the Gulf oil spill and the piss poor federal response to it isn't being covered, because the Democrats are in power. The job of the media here is to hold the government accountable, but in reality they really only hold Republicans accountable while propping up and sheilding Democrats.

    Assuming what you're claiming is 100% true (it isn't, a lot of it is untrue, half-true, or highly debatable) and the Republicans were in power, people who know how the media works here know beyond any doubt that the media would be all over it slamming the Republicans for war crimes non-stop, around the clock on our 24/7 news cycle. Heck, that's what they did when Bush and the Republicans were in power and did so with hardly any proof as well. Now there's apparently some proof but the media is silent. Hmmmm.... Similarly, if the Republicans were in power the media would also be slamming the Republicans to this day for their piss poor Gulf oil spill response except there's silence on that as well because the Reps aren't in power, the Dems are. Republicans get attacked even without any proof, and Democrats get shielded even with overwhelming proof. Even during the oil spill coverage was minimal. It would be non-stop around the clock coverage of doom and gloom both on the war and the oil spill with the Republicans still in charge. Suddenly after Obama was elected the media seemed to lose interest in reporting on wars and disasters with the Democrats in charge. Funny how that works.

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    14:15

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    six turnin', four burnin' stevENTj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    Who cares? Reality is that your country is falling, and I care. How come you don't?
    I do, except that you haven't listed some of the biggest reasons as to WHY it's falling. THOSE are the reasons I'm most concerned about. Nothing to comment on since you haven't mentioned them, and hence the 'LOL' because you're missing the larger picture. What you've listed are nice things to debate about but in the grand scheme of things are smaller issues. There are larger and far more fundamental issues in play. And 'war politics' are always dirty.

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    six turnin', four burnin' stevENTj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    I had to start somewhere. You didn't even start.
    I don't need to start. I just need to go vote, which is what I'll be doing today. That's my part and all I can do really. Debating with people online on such issues is a complete waste of time anyways. What does that accomplish? It's not like there aren't tons of other online forums with political sections where these debates aren't already raging.

    My biggest issues.

    - Extremely anti-business and private sector government KILLING jobs and our economic power and freedom.
    - Extremely out of control government spending racking up $5 TRILLION in debt in the past few years, which will quickly send us into economic ruin Greek style and which also severely limits the free capital available to the private sector which actually CREATES jobs and wealth.
    - Out of control entitlement programs that NEED reform NOW (social security, medicare, etc.)

    The conduct of the war? Wikileaks? Dealings with China? Small fish in a large sea.

    As for a full-scale collapse, I pray it never happens, but that's why you need to have cash and a pile of guns and ammo stored someplace.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    1. How does it feel to be American, knowing that your nation murders innocent civilians systematically? Do you feel personally responsible?
    It feels awesome. it feels like I'm murdering all those people by proxy and getting away with it.

    Just kidding. I actually don't give two shits, and your sense of drama is overwrought here.

    3. What do you think the consequences will be? The world will hate you, of course, but other than that - will you face internal riots? Or will this just go away like most other horrors in the past?
    Most people don't give a shit. Not that there's any reason they should, given that the state is historically authorize by society to use force on behalf of the nation.

    4. Do you think your leaders act in your best interest?
    Hell no. Elites never act in the best interest of the people they rule -- the people's best interest is merely a positive byproduct. However, as the US government has discarded all sense of sanity, that isn't happening either.

    5. How much do you think foreign interests control your politics?
    Neoconservatives basically run the US senate and cabinet on behalf of Israel, so plenty.

    Wikileaks Iraq War Diaries


    1. Why on earth is there so much discussion about abortion and gay people's rights in the US, when discussing those matters will not change a single thing? (Gay people and abortion will not disappear no matter how much people discuss, so just shut the fuck up. K?) I think it's a bit like the bread and circus tactics of Rome - it takes away focus from real matters. Like if it's ok to shoot babies in the head to terrorize civilians into supporting your forces. And if supporting such actions will benefit your country or not in the long run. Or if pumping up the Christmas Trees yet again will cause the dollar to collapse and send the US back to Middle Ages in development. Or if it's OK that the Chinese has taken over as the World Economic leader. And if that will mean your collapse no matter what, or if you can hold on to power using military forces. Or if it's OK to criticize the Chinese for breaking human rights in their own country, when the US shoots civilians in the Middle East to gain power over the region. Or if the Chinese possibly will win also that race, since they spend the money they earn on selling you Christmas gifts on buying up companies and land in the Middle East, instead of taking power through war. Or that the Chinese will definitely win the popularity contest in that region by giving people there jobs and money, instead of bombs and nightmares. And how that will gain you all.
    tl;dr
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

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    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    POLITICS and WAR:
    1. How does it feel to be American, knowing that your nation murders innocent civilians systematically? Do you feel personally responsible?

    How does it feel to be American? Damn great! No seriously, I don't identify myself nor others with such intangible matters. I don't feel personally responsible for what other people do to other people, but I do feel responsible as a human being.

    2. Or did you not know? (In that case - how does it feel to know that your media is biased?)

    All media is biased.

    3. What do you think the consequences will be? The world will hate you, of course, but other than that - will you face internal riots? Or will this just go away like most other horrors in the past?

    I cannot predict the future. Internal riots? Maybe, maybe not. I'm sure if allowed to, we will forget just like every other event that has lost media attention.


    4. Do you think your leaders act in your best interest?

    , funny.

    5. How much do you think foreign interests control your politics?

    99.9%, the rest is due to sleazy, manipulative bastards wanting to get a free ride from the government.
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    six turnin', four burnin' stevENTj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    You are so turned upside down.
    Actually no, and apologies for not having the time to debate back and forth and 'set you straight'. Bigger fish to fry today, much bigger. Sorry. Maybe some other day. I could rebut and elaborate quite extensively on a lot of your points and have in fact written entire essays in the past just on the outsourcing point alone. A business is hardly 'evil' and anti-American just because it outsources. There's plenty of legit reasons to do this. Don't always agree with it, but your blanket statement assessment is intellectually bankrupt. And your own European media sources are obviously quite heavily biased if this was the very best you could come up with.

    In the end we agree that we want the U.S. "fixed", but like most ideological debates go we disagree completely on what exactly the real problem is and on how exactly to fix it.

    Anyways have fun with your thread. Have been so busy lately that I haven't even had time to follow up on some of the ones that I've started.
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    European medias don't say anything like this (what ananake says), by the way.
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    POLITICS and WAR:
    1. How does it feel to be American, knowing that your nation murders innocent civilians systematically? Do you feel personally responsible?

    I will say first of all that I love the underlying spirit of America, which I think has very little to do with politics, economic empire, etc. Unlike many of the intellectuals I have been friends with and have learned from, I am not ashamed per se to be American. I happen to be in Europe at the moment, and I like it a lot, and I also like the U.S. I'm not here to escape my Americannness.

    BUT I am ashamed of some of the things that have been done in the name of my country. I'm also ashamed of my country's lack of care for its own citizens. I do feel responsible. If anyone ever wishes to take me to task as an American, to criticize my country's policies, unless they are making factual errors, I completely accept what they have to say and have no problem saying that, as an American, I am sorry.

    The most difficult two moments I faced as an American were (1) meeting a child from Iraq whose arm had been blown off by an American bomb and (2) meeting a Mexican woman whose guerrilla husband had been disappeared; the U.S. government knew what happened to him but would not give her any information. Fucking hell, I was sorry on behalf of this country. But sorry isn't really good enough for shit like this:

    Iraq War Casualty Pictures

    2. Or did you not know? (In that case - how does it feel to know that your media is biased?)

    The U.S. media used to be pretty fucking incredible, and you can still find pockets of outstanding journalism here. But journalism's former role as the "Fourth Estate" has almost completely crumbled. It's not so much that the media are biased. I mean, they are, but that's not the worst problem. It's that they don't practice journalism anymore. It's just a bunch of crap. It's news-tainment, and the bottom line is money. It's also designed to keep people in a state of fear, which is why I mostly refuse to watch TV programs of any kind.

    3. What do you think the consequences will be? The world will hate you, of course, but other than that - will you face internal riots? Or will this just go away like most other horrors in the past?

    Although the U.S. is in severe decline, I find it difficult to gauge where things are heading. My guess would be a long, slow decline. Because that would only be a continuation of longstanding trends that have a lot to do with the shrinking prospects of the American middle class. Basically, shitty education, shitty culture, shitty food, poor health, poor health care ... the odds are stacked against us here. It's a shame, too, because I know many fine, dedicated, intelligent, hardworking people in the U.S. who are great parents, who care about this country and want to do the right thing.

    4. Do you think your leaders act in your best interest?

    Um, no.

    5. How much do you think foreign interests control your politics?

    I'm not sure I can easily answer this question because it's not how I would state things. I don't know if you've ever heard of something called "Social Threefolding," but it more or less describes what I think a well-run country would be like.


    POLITICS and GAY people:

    Abortion and gay rights to me are subjects that stand for huge and nearly insolveable differences between various factions in the United States. Since I'm from the South and my family mostly still live there, I experience it as a gap between the ardently religious and the religiously indifferent. The threat to abortion rights, the blocking of gay rights ... they stand for the fear that each group (religious right, irreligious left) has of the other, of being controlled by the other, of having insupportable values foisted on them.

    And, you know, I grew up in a place where as a teen I might as well not have had the right to an abortion. This is something I've had a hard time explaining to, say, German friends. That even a small to medium-sized U.S. state is often as big as a European country, but without the level of services, the population density, the ability to simply travel around. I lived in a rural town in the South, a town with no abortion services. To get an abortion I would have needed to go to a big city, and there were no buses or trains running regularly back and forth. In my case, my mom would have supported me getting an abortion if I'd needed one, but if that had not been so, I would have been pretty well stuck. I knew young girls who felt they had no choice but to give birth. So although it's not my prime concern, the abortion issue does matter to me. If abortion is outlawed, I think many of us will wonder what's next, where the madness could stop.

    The whole gay-rights issue, man ... Again, I think it's important to try to understand the cultural framework around it and to see that it's a signal issue, a barometer.
    Last edited by golden; 11-02-2010 at 10:40 PM.

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    1) I'm not an American. I live here and they might call me a citizen, but in my mind I will never be part of this country. As for the systematic killing, all countries do it in one way or another, playing the blame game is silly.
    As for responsibility, I think about it every day. Up to this point I have figured that I cannot do everything and could not possibly be at fault for everyone that remains ignorant and clueless.

    2) Yeah I know. What news I do read is indeed from Wikileaks. But again, no blame game, as all countries are guilty of this.

    3) What? Nothing will happen. You over over exaggerating the world's response to the war. You'll always have people like steve here who will always have a way around the facts.

    4) Never. I even find it funny you quoted that popular Churchill saying, who to me is an abomination like the rest.

    5) I don't make guesses about things I don't know unless I feel I have enough to make an inference. However, I will say that I know our 'politics' are guided by the same thing everyone else's 'politics' are guided by. The United States and most western Euro countries have the same underlying political motives, so again, using the US as a scapegoat for the world's corruption is a silly maneuver if that's what you're doing (I can't be certain as I have not thoroughly read your replies) as they are all equally guilty.

    Gay people, different ethnic groups, the middle/lower classes etc. will never be given equal say or rights unless they demand it, and they won't demand it unless they know they have the power to obtain it, and they won't know they have this power unless they are educated about it, and they won't get educated about it because our country's education system teaches us to believe in and respect the power of institutions. I don't feel responsible for not going outside and yelling at people because it wouldn't amount to anything. Again, this too is true across the world and is very unspecific of the US.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    Thanks for answering so openly, Golden.

    If it's not too much to ask, do you think there is a change in perspective/a different awareness in the US now than some years ago? If you think so, what do you think is changing? Why do so few people vote? Is it because they don't care, or because they don't think they can influence anything anyway?


    I still find it puzzling how your politicians can play on matters like abortion and gay rights when there are so many more pressing issues. Like discussing a broken toe when the head is shot off.

    Do you think Europe and the US are sailing in different directions?
    You're welcome, and I don't know about the change in perspective. I've spent these last years in such a state of flux myself, living in various regions, I don't think I can be objective.

    One thing I do believe has changed is that my family in the South have become more and more dogmatically religious, and their religion has become more and more mixed with politics. I find this trend upsetting, to say the least. I know people who are literally told whom to vote for in church.

    I also find that I meet fewer people who speak in support the U.S.'s Iraq involvement, even when their politics are hard right, even when they are very "Let's support our troops" in their outlook. Of course, it's too late now to take back what's been done.

    Clearly, the U.S. is very polarized and very big and complex. To try to make one nation out of all these states, all these various people? It's just difficult. It's so hard to generalize about the U.S. I have spent a lot of time in different parts of it and have a hard time answering Europeans' questions about it sometimes. (I.e., are you asking about restaurant quality and prices in New York City, in Wisconsin, in Wyoming, in Texas, in Missouri ... ? And on the political front, when you want me to answer a question about Native Americans, which tribe? Which KIND of tribe? Which kind of members of a tribe? Do you want my perspective as a white American with Indian ancestors, or do you want me to try to give you an answer that might be more approximately what a native person would say? Grrrrrrr.)

    I know a lot of people living in progressive U.S. locations who are, in my view, sort of aligned in values with current European trends. These are people who are NOT necessarily academics or intellectuals--the class of Americans who have "always" aligned themselves with Europe and eschewed all things American. I would just say that their lifestyles are more European: the way they raise their kids, the schools they choose, the food they eat, their ideas about health, their level of materialism, etc.

    But just as often I see people in the U.S. who would confuse Western Europeans greatly.

    And I also think that as long as the U.S. lags behind in terms of covering basic social needs like health care, it will be difficult for the U.S. to seem culturally like a Western European society.

    If the Iraq war and our economic shenanigans haven't caused a serious break between Europe and the U.S., what will? I'm in France right now and see the seepage of my country's culture into this one's everywhere I turn.

    Regarding abortion and gay rights, gosh, it's hard to simplify that into something that will fit in this thread. If you want to talk about it sometime in PMs, I'm game. You're expecting it to stand up to reason, and it doesn't and it won't. It's a question of zealotry. I mean, I'm facebook friends with people from my high school in the South, and a lot of them regularly post about God and prayer and stuff. One of them posted photos of herself and some fancy friends at a very nice Christian women's group dinner that was held in the evening ... across the street from an abortion clinic where they had spent the day talking poor and young women out of abortions.

    I guess that there's no way for me to readily impart what it's like to live in a very culturally and geographically isolated part of the United States and how some people in such places make religion the cornerstone of their lives, and how their religion is mixed with sociopolitical issues. Yes, it's crazy. It's fundamentalism. When people are in such a mindset, of course it's very easily for politicians to manipulate them. (And no, I'm not saying these are the only manipulated Americans.)

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    six turnin', four burnin' stevENTj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    Very simply and briefly, what do you think the real problem is, and what do you think needs to be done? I want to understand your thinking. I'm pretty neutral in this, since I'm not American, so I can be influenced if you have sound arguments that fit the macro picture I see.
    You're hardly neutral on the issue if you're already telling me how wrong and backwards I am before I've even gotten warmed up. Are you really neutral, and do you really want to hear a conservative point of view or have you already concluded that business is evil and are just pretending to be 'neutral'? I'm also not "finding my way around facts" either. There are many sets of "facts" out there from different sides. If you want to be objective you have to look at both sets. As far as media goes, that requires watching at least two channels, or reading two different websites with different editorial slants.

    I'm not wrong about what I would say nor am I backwards, so if you're actually open-minded and "undecided" then let me know. Otherwise I'm not going to waste my time.

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    Why even comment if you think nothing can happen...ashton and steveentj...this viewpoint is common of gamma in my expirience and they underestimate the potential for change and mindlessly repeat self interest arguments. And of course Ashton has to throw in blatant bullshit like our media being "crazy left wing". Oh they're not any wing ashton they're just acting in their own best interest.
    It may have something to do with weak Fe.

    On the discussion of this topic, I agree with anake on the problem here...
    Let's create a new movement that won't get co-opted like the bs tea party.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jughead View Post
    Let's create a new movement that won't get co-opted like the bs tea party.
    The seismic movement?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jughead View Post
    Why even comment if you think nothing can happen...ashton and steveentj...this viewpoint is common of gamma in my expirience and they underestimate the potential for change and mindlessly repeat self interest arguments. And of course Ashton has to throw in blatant bullshit like our media being "crazy left wing". Oh they're not any wing ashton they're just acting in their own best interest.
    It may have something to do with weak Fe.

    On the discussion of this topic, I agree with anake on the problem here...
    Let's create a new movement that won't get co-opted like the bs tea party.
    haha. man. our media being 'crazy left wing'? I really fail to see it. You can't even go into major American media and come out against the two wars. Or say something bad about Israeli injustices. Coming out and saying something pro-union would be even worse. How can this be left wing?

    I agree that media is now such large business and so delocalized that it has to fight for its interests, which are mostly business. When the mega corporation that owns your media business also owns stock/or is owned in part in oil companies, pharmaceutical companies, etc, they don't talk bad about these interests.
    asd

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    Answers:

    1. How does it feel to be American, knowing that your nation murders innocent civilians systematically? Do you feel personally responsible?

    I feel normal. I don't identlfy much with the country of my citizenship and birth, or with any other for that matter. I am a historical realist, so the fact that people murder each other on behalf of state or other interests doesn't surprise me. People have been killing each other since time immemorial. I certainly don't like it, but it's part of our program. What our nonexistent predators can't do for us, we do for ourselves under various pretexts.

    2. Or did you not know? (In that case - how does it feel to know that your media is biased?)

    I can't stand TV and popular media. There is definitely a bias toward the emotional and the stupid. Intelligent analysis has to be found elsewhere.

    3. What do you think the consequences will be? The world will hate you, of course, but other than that - will you face internal riots? Or will this just go away like most other horrors in the past?

    The consequences of "murdering innocent civilians systematically?" I would say limited consequences, if any. I think it'll go away. Americans, I think, have more pressing problems on their mind than various war atrocities of which they are already fairly aware.

    4. Do you think your leaders act in your best interest?

    Of course not. Nobody knows what our best interests are anyways, least of all politicians.

    5. How much do you think foreign interests control your politics?

    Not sure what you mean. I think U.S. politics are guided more by domestic commercial interests that have a foreign component (typically a foreign source of raw materials).

    1. Why on earth is there so much discussion about abortion and gay people's rights in the US, when discussing those matters will not change a single thing?

    Because these issues are commonly seen as religious ones, and the U.S. is a predominantly religious country. Bible fundamentalism is very much alive in the U.S. If God said homosexuality is an abomination, how can one justify extending civil privileges to gay couples?



    Where do I think the U.S. is headed? Bankruptcy and political collapse within the next 20 years. One day the middle class will wake up to realize it is impoverished. I suspect the U.S. will attempt to solve its problems through wars before finally losing most of its remaining international influence and turning sharply isolationist. Meanwhile, national neuroses and paranoia will continue to grow until a breaking point is reached.

    The basic underlying reasons for this are 1) the U.S. has enjoyed a privileged position of superpower status for several generations and therefore has the option of "legitimately" exercising force, 2) it has run out of resources and must now get them from other countries, 3) over its history the U.S. has amassed an incredible amount of wealth, and its political institutions and infrastructure have evolved to serve the interests of those who hold the wealth, and 4) the U.S. is just too big, and therefore less democratic than it could be.

    No matter who's in power (i.e. Dem or Rep), the resource problem cannot be addressed in any politically acceptable way, so the economic crisis will continue and the national debt will continue to grow. I doubt there is anything that can be done at this point to bring the debt down because, fundamentally, expenses are rising and the economy is falling.

    I don't know how this will all play out but it will not be pretty.
    It is easier for the eye of a camel to pass through a rich man than for a needle to enter the kingdom of heaven.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    Don't put words in my mouth, please. It makes me disrespect you. I did not call the businesses evil. I called them profit-driven. It is common sense. You are the one putting irrelevant value on that fact. Keep to facts, please.
    You've already disrespected me by telling me how wrong and backwards I am before I even had a chance to get warmed up. And which set of facts would you like me to stick to? The ones that fit with the broader macroeconomic picture that you see or the ones that don't? I don't even agree with many of the facts that you've presented as the basis for what you see, or more accurately, there are plenty of counter-facts that refute that. I also don't think you're really here to gather opinions from Americans and that you're neutral and open. You said yourself you'd be willing to consider a strong argument that supports your view, the converse of which is rejecting ones that don't. That's what you've been doing so far, and I haven't even gotten started yet. Why bother? You've already made up your mind, and I'm no longer into "arguing for sport".

    A common theme in your posts though is how America's lousy image abroad is hurting us, and yes I agree with this wholeheartedly. But ask yourself, what is the reason for this? Is it truly due to America's actions and our supposed 'war-crimes' among other things, or could it possibly be due to relentlessly biased and also anti-American foreign media sources? I've been to Europe quite a bit, including during our 2004 elections here. I thought American media was bad enough, sheesh. Do you think Europeans are truly getting a balanced perspective of America from your own media outlets? Somehow I doubt it, so that's in play as well.

    Not going to belabor the point because media is always going to be biased, and that will never change. The cure for this is better leadership that can take the media by the horns and win with a pro-American message and change people's minds. Bush failed here miserably and simply ignored the media. I think it was Karl Rove who said his biggest regret during his time in the Bush admin is their decision to simply ignore the media and not fight back. He regrets that now. Is Obama any better? At least Europeans like Obama better than Bush, but he's hardly any better and the apologist speeches he gives abroad do nothing to prop up our image imho. Guess we'll have to wait around for the next 'great leader'. America has been where it's at before, ya know.
    Te-INTp/ILI, my wife: Fi-ISFj/ESI, with laser beam death rays for ESTp/SLEs, lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by jughead View Post
    Why even comment if you think nothing can happen...ashton and steveentj...this viewpoint is common of gamma in my expirience and they underestimate the potential for change and mindlessly repeat self interest arguments.
    So because I won't argue extensively on this topic here, on the Internet, your conclusion is that I think nothing can happen and underestimate the potential for change etc etc. uhhh, okay...


    Quote Originally Posted by jughead View Post
    And of course Ashton has to throw in blatant bullshit like our media being "crazy left wing". Oh they're not any wing ashton they're just acting in their own best interest.
    It may have something to do with weak Fe.
    Republicans, independents, and even the more moderate Democrats all realize that the media as a whole here is biased to the left, supported by Pew Research and other organization's findings. Could be why American's confidence and faith in our news media is at an all time low. The only people who don't see or accept this are archliberals, and an inability to see this might have something to do with weak Te.

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    Oh the Great Silent Majority seems to have spoken. BTW, by and large, the silent majority isn't present on this forum either, or on the Internet as a whole for the most part. I've always wondered why that is. Some friends and I had a few theories once but can't remember what we came up with. So if ananke wants to get views from the 'silent majority' this probably isn't the place for that.

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    From the Heritage Foundation, a prominent conservative think tank here in the States. For differing views, see also CATO (libertarian, iirc) and Brookings (liberal)

    Morning Bell: Get to Work
    Posted By Ed Feulner On November 3, 2010 @ 8:58 am In Ongoing Priorities | No Comments


    My fellow conservatives,

    The people have spoken. Reckless spending, stifling regulations, ever-rising taxes, endless debt and the looming government takeover of health care have brought this nation to a tipping point. Not surprisingly, the American people have now taken matters into their own hands.

    How we got to that tipping point is clear. For too long, Washington’s preening elites have assumed that they knew best and that government was in itself the all-purpose solution to every perceived problem.
    But the American people have a collective wisdom, and they expressed it yesterday. They took a stand and decided on a new direction because continuing down the path we’re currently on would mean the end of the American Dream.

    They repudiated “change” that denies our character and tradition, and called instead for an American Renewal that taps our values. The message that came out of this election, I can assure you, was heard around the world. Everyone now knows that Americans remain a strong and free people, unbowed by adversity and unwilling to exchange their birthright of liberty for a perpetual stew of bureaucratic rule and government dependency.

    But let’s be clear, now we must all get to work. The new Congress has a choice: answer the call of renewal or betray the hopes of the American people. It is time for conservatives to be conservative, and not backslide.
    We here at The Heritage Foundation are inspired by your commitment to America’s principles, and bolstered by your demand for practical, conservative solutions to our common problems. We and our 700,000 members will work day and night to make sure Washington has heard you, too, for now the real work begins.

    There is much work to be done by the new Congress. Heritage is issuing a set of five simple actions Congress must take in order to meet this mandate of the American people. These five priorities represent the bare minimum of what is expected of our new representatives. More will need to be done to get our nation back on the right track, but taking these actions represent a good start.

    I recommend that you print out [1] this document, share it with friends and family.

    This list, which we call “Solutions for America: Get to Work” [2], is comprised of the following calls to action:
    • FREEZE AND CUT SPENDING: Congress should immediately freeze discretionary budget authority at 2010 levels; and cut at least $170 billion from the federal budget for fiscal year 2012. This is only a first step. In the past four years, Congress has approved more spending that even the bureaucrats can handle. Congress must immediately survey the unobligated balances of all appropriations made in the past four years and should reclaim these unspent taxpayer funds and use them to reduce the deficit.
    • REPEAL OBAMACARE: Congress must immediately pass a bill that repeals Obamacare. Until Congress is able to get the President to sign a law repealing Obamacare, it must withhold funding, block key provisions and override regulations carrying out Obamacare. Only after Obamacare is rejected, can Congress undertake a careful, thoughtful legislative process to make practical adjustments that allow the free market to provide affordable, effective health care insurance choices.
    • STOP THE OBAMA TAX HIKES: Congress must reject the Obama tax hikes, and make permanent the tax cuts of 2001 and 2003, thereby helping the economy grow and create more jobs.
    • PROTECT AMERICA: Congress must pass a budget resolution that won’t put our troops at risk or leave Americans vulnerable. It can do this by providing for defense an average of $720 billion per year (to be adjusted for inflation) for each of the next five fiscal years, in addition to the funding needed for ongoing contingency operations. Congress must make the defense budget as efficient as possible and reinvest dollars achieved from reforms in the military to offset the cost of modernizing and developing next-generation equipment.
    • GET CONTROL OF GOVERNMENT: Congress must immediately reestablish legislative accountability by posting complete legislation, ending earmarks, reviewing all unauthorized programs and respecting constitutional limits on government. Congress must check executive branch overreach with aggressive oversight, roll back recent government interventions, stop unnecessary administrative regulations and sunset new ones, restrict bureaucrats’ rulemaking authority and override executive orders.
    Please see the full document here [1]. Each of these things must be done if Washington is to fulfill its electoral mandate and meet its constitutional responsibilities.

    We must not underestimate the difficulty of this task. This is but the beginning of a long recovery and renewal. There’s much to be done. We need to put an end to the crony capitalism that permeates so many of the outrages of these past two years. Government elites should not be picking winners and losers, giving bailouts to GM and waivers of the health care law to McDonald’s.

    We must return to the states the authority and flexibility to solve problems best resolved at that level of government. Replace federal failure and incompetence with state ingenuity custom-tailored to solve local problems.

    Many will say it cannot be done, and some will demean the people and trivialize their objectives. They will do so at their peril. That attitude ignores what has just taken place. Let us never overlook our noble purpose: to restore America, rebuild its limited government and revive a nation of unlimited possibilities–where freedom, opportunity, prosperity, and civil society flourish.

    This is a pivotal time. The public mind is engaged, and the eyes of the people are on Washington to see if their government will listen to them once again. We must seize the moment, or the moment will be lost, and so might our country.

    Americans have reached back to their roots and history to rediscover their traditions and values. There’s a reason the Tea Party took a name from one of our earliest revolutionary events. One of the worst things our President has done in his two years in office—on top of the spending, the overreach of health care and the inability to allow the private sector to create jobs—has been in comment after comment to disparage the people, their wisdom and their intelligence.

    We must remain committed, stay focused, be ever vigilant — and keep the faith.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stevENTj View Post
    This list, which we call “Solutions for America: Get to Work” [2], is comprised of the following calls to action:
    • FREEZE AND CUT SPENDING: Congress should immediately freeze discretionary budget authority at 2010 levels; and cut at least $170 billion from the federal budget for fiscal year 2012. This is only a first step. In the past four years, Congress has approved more spending that even the bureaucrats can handle. Congress must immediately survey the unobligated balances of all appropriations made in the past four years and should reclaim these unspent taxpayer funds and use them to reduce the deficit.
    • REPEAL OBAMACARE: Congress must immediately pass a bill that repeals Obamacare. Until Congress is able to get the President to sign a law repealing Obamacare, it must withhold funding, block key provisions and override regulations carrying out Obamacare. Only after Obamacare is rejected, can Congress undertake a careful, thoughtful legislative process to make practical adjustments that allow the free market to provide affordable, effective health care insurance choices.
    • STOP THE OBAMA TAX HIKES: Congress must reject the Obama tax hikes, and make permanent the tax cuts of 2001 and 2003, thereby helping the economy grow and create more jobs.
    • PROTECT AMERICA: Congress must pass a budget resolution that won’t put our troops at risk or leave Americans vulnerable. It can do this by providing for defense an average of $720 billion per year (to be adjusted for inflation) for each of the next five fiscal years, in addition to the funding needed for ongoing contingency operations. Congress must make the defense budget as efficient as possible and reinvest dollars achieved from reforms in the military to offset the cost of modernizing and developing next-generation equipment.
    • GET CONTROL OF GOVERNMENT: Congress must immediately reestablish legislative accountability by posting complete legislation, ending earmarks, reviewing all unauthorized programs and respecting constitutional limits on government. Congress must check executive branch overreach with aggressive oversight, roll back recent government interventions, stop unnecessary administrative regulations and sunset new ones, restrict bureaucrats’ rulemaking authority and override executive orders.
    lol
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    I'm sorry if I said it like that. You came off as someone just wanting to defend without stating your opinion openly, and I thought you had no real opinion. I see now that you do. Thank you for the feedback.

    The reason I made this thread was partly to see if people understand the situation, and partly to see what those who understand the problem want to do with it. Take the temperature, if you want, and see what strategies you think are needed for the US to save it's ass.

    You obviously understand more than I thought, and have, more than most, thought through how to solve things. Your thoughts are very radical, in my opinion, and thus very interesting.
    My views, with respect to American politics, are hardly radical. They're the majority as of the 2010 elections which just took place yesterday.


    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    I actually think we see the "problem" more or less the same way, and as stated, I just wanted to see how you want to address it.

    If I read you correctly, based on what you have posted in this thread, this is your position:

    1. US is in deep shit
    2. To fix the problem, the US needs to fight for power.
    3. Attacking countries and committing war crimes are OK, as long as they help keeping the US on top.
    4. Since these war crimes will turn the world opinion against you, you need to take measures to make sure the media is controlled/influenced by the US, so that they don't state things that are unfavorable for the US.

    All in all, you want a world regime, where the US dictates the rules? Did I understand you correctly?

    As for internal politics, I will not comment on those points, but thanks for posting your opinion.
    You're very imaginitive and also quite hypocritcal. You complain about me supposedly putting words in your mouth, yet then do that ten-fold over to me. We both agree on #1 and many Americans feel the same way. #2-4 however are ridiculous, not the least bit representative of my or any other person's views in this country, and also not the least bit serious of a response. If that's what you've been able to gather from my posts along with whatever other reading you've been doing, then it's quite clear to me that you have little clue about America, Americans, or American politics for that matter and ought to go back to the drawing board and reconsider (or better yet completely scrap) your assessment of the situation and start over.

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    If you want to see election reaction from all quarters, go to www.realclearpolitics.com and start reading. They link articles from all angles. I like this site. Also www.politico.com does an excellent job of covering American politics fairly.

    Election 2010: A Dramatic Political Reversal - Susan Page, USA Today
    Massive Swing by Independent Voters - Gerald Seib, Wall Street Journal
    For Obama, the Tide Turns Starkly - Peter Baker, New York Times
    Sweeping Uprising is a Shining Moment - Michael Goodwin, New York Post
    A Setback, Not Defeat for Progressives - E.J. Dionne, Washington Post
    Dems Over-Interpreted Our Mandate - Sen. Evan Bayh, New York Times
    The Ephemeral Nature of Political Power - Philip Klein, American Spectator
    Republican Party Time: Man Up Mr. Speaker! - Maureen Dowd, NY Times
    Why Midwest Swing States Flipped to the GOP - Doug Schwartz, CBS News
    Less Government, More Freedom - Sen. Jim DeMint, Wall Street Journal
    Obama Thumped, but Policies Were Right - Ruth Marcus, Washington Post
    More Stimulus, Anyone? - Jeff Jacoby, Boston Globe
    Exit Polls: Unprecedented White Flight from Dems - David Paul Kuhn, RCP
    President Obama Must Walk the Walk on Change - Mark Halperin, Time
    Lunatic Notion of American Exceptionalism - Peter Beinart, Daily Beast
    Midterms May Have Saved a Superpower - Nile Gardiner, Daily Telegraph
    A No-Confidence Vote for Obama - Richard Cohen, Washington Post

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    Quote Originally Posted by ananke
    I just tried to condense the things you said into a step by step approach, as it was hard to read your opinions about larger issues in between all the words you wrote.
    The problem is that you keep twisting around what I wrote and then trying to cram it into your world political macro economic theory which I fundamentally don't even agree with in the first place. And that's why nothing makes any sense.

    See Ashton's post. I was too lazy to want to type something up like that but pretty much +1 to most of that.

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    And that is the way it is heading, with China's new economic situation. The US era is coming to an end, and it is NOT because of war crimes, but because the free ride of having THE world reserve currency will end.
    Not so easy. China artifically keeps the Renmibi undervalued. When they'll let it float, exchange rates will likely become very volatile until adjustment occurs (or, if they don't let it float, sooner or later inflation will explode in China). So, probably, dollars will keep on being the numeraire for quite some time.

    By the way, an almost obscure paper which shows interesting stats and comparisons related to GDP figures (which are often used to compare the "slow" EU to "fast" USA): On misusing National Accounts data for governance purposes (there's also a more detailed version in german: Messprobleme bei der Ermittlung des Wachstums der Arbeitsproduktivität ? dargestellt anhand eines Vergleichs der Schweiz mit den USA ). It seems like a lot of differences can be explained away by taking into account how EU and US statistical methods differ. These facts are quite interesting, because there's a lot of talk related to Debt / GDP ratios etc., and if statistical tricks can easily modify the numeraire, most economic comparisons become...worthless chit-chat.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    ...
    "Why?"; Mostly this country's history disgusts and repulses me, but then so do they all.
     
    Some quick examples;
    genocide; tens of millions native Americans (just in the US) murdered to build the bloody foundation of this nation (note; yet more were systematically killed the name of other nations, namely Spain).
    human rights violations; civil rights? gay rights? children's rights? many euro nations have problems with this too.
    slavery; over a hundred million, murdered, which would not have worked without Euro cooperation (as well as some African nations).
    as well as others which I do not feel I need to comment on like; financial and military support of corrupt governments, assassinations, disgusting war practices (more human rights violations here), etc.
    The present brings to mind things I can hardly believe are happening. Many around me are either unaware of global issues or are heavily misinformed by their local news station about them. Needless to say, I hate the idea of America and Americans in general.

    "Not all countries are involved in war"; No nation is innocent in the past, and in the present many have involved themselves in middle eastern conflicts themselves.

    US has a responsibility...; If the US didn't receive so much support from other nations none of this would have happened. Hell, other countries even payed for most of the Iraq war's beginning and opened the door to US occupation. And that's leaving Afghanistan out of the picture; many euro nations were there for the beginning and I believe at least Britain is still in there. All who were involved took either a direct or indirect part in the slaughter.

    "Media"; Give me a frightening story and a channel and I'll give you anything you want.

    "World is changing and the US is going down"; To some extent, I must agree with you that the US is running out of status and options, but I don't think China has any intention of demanding all the money back all at once else they would have stopped selling in the first place. I also would like to believe that the rest of the world wouldn't sit and watch if China chose to forcibly take compensation, but then again they've been sitting and watching the Iraqis and Afghans get torn up for years and haven't managed to do anything about it, so I fear I cannot say for sure what they would do.

    "Other leaders/10% is a lot"; I can vote for corrupt asshole A or corrupt asshole B. Both are equally liable to murder tens of thousands for a few dollars in their pocket. You don't survive in politics unless you cater to special interest parties that sponsor you (any politics that matter anyway), and after that you have so many political obligations to keep that you lose sight of what you were fighting for to begin with, if you were fighting for anything. The system needs an overhaul and that just won't ever happen unless the people over here either by having an armed revolution (but that will just change the system and won't stop the rich from running it), or the American people become educated about their nation's true history and are not spoon fed nationalist/racist doctrine.

    Even if A happens the system will change but the people running it won't. Corrupt asshole A and B will still be around to be corrupt assholes. B will never happen so long as corrupt assholes run the education system, and well, they do.

    "Other politics"; I suppose what I just wrote proved your point here. Our system even recently approved corporate 'gifting' of money to politicians *sigh*. I don't claim to know the specifics of foreign governments as I've lived here all my life (and read from bias textbooks), but I can say that what I said about the fundamental problem, the fact that it's run by the rich who are interested in keeping it that way at the expense of their underlings, won't change no matter your location or your system. However, I do respect some western Euro countries, namely Norway, Sweden, Switzerland etc. yet even they have their share of crimes.

    @Steve; I don't know how to say this, but the US has never has never ever upheld anything close to 'opportunity, freedom, prosperity...'. There are plenty of simple facts that flat out contradict everything America claims to stand for.

     
    Also, for the record, outsourcing does not work for anyone. The parent nation loses business and wages and the nation receiving shit wages gets ditched the moment they organize and demand higher wages for some other poor group in their position that will accept shit wages, and then they're back to the poor conditions of the past. Also, the business practices are in no way justifiable; many corporations pay less than the necessary amount for survival.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skeptic View Post
    Switzerland etc.
    What's so good about Switerzland, except the Alps and chocolate?
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    Yeah, it's a big and messy picture, but the trend is still clear.
    Right, although it might go on for quite a long time (20? 30? years of pumping dollars, given that there's a lot of emerging countries which will need them), and again it might not be easily solved by another "pooling equilibrium" towards the Renmibi. Well, personally I like democracy and chaos so I'd prefer something like India or a Latin American union, but that's even more unlikely, lol.
    We don't even know how technology might change in 30 years. If there's an energy-related breakthrough (something I hope), political fights centered over oil and/or similar resources might become outdated. It'll then be interesting to see what they'll try to come up with as a reason to waste a nation's money.

    True, but again, the trend is clear.
    Yeah I was agreeing with you on that, meaning that growth-figures coming from the other side of the Atlantic can't easily be optimistically compred to our meager Euro levels.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    I'd like some clarification on the questions as to when "you" is used in the singular sense and when "you" is used in the plural sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    What's so good about Switerzland, except the Alps and chocolate?
    Haha, now that I think about it I suppose I always included them for their long neutrality. But they're not really all that neutral, so it's not reasonable that I include them.

    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    There are other alternatives. Create a real system and a real candidate.
    What do you mean by creating a real system and candidate?
    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    It has happened before.

    If enough people demand a change, there will be a reaction. Push for reactions and things will start to move. (welcome to Beta revolutions.)
    Revolutions of the past have all failed to have a lasting effect, and the ones that are most obvious are the most obviously failed. I used agree with you here. I supported the idea of a revolution once; but as I said, the powerful now will set themselves up to be the powerful after the revolution, or other individuals will leap at the opportunity to install themselves as dictator. What could you possibly do to circumvent that?

    As for the educated citizens and the well meaning politicians, they are all outliers. Never enough to get the word out and never enough to make a difference. I can't see any way I can inspire or contribute to change in the current system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    "Never give in, never give in, never; never; never; never - in nothing, great or small, large or petty - never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense."

    - Winston Churchill
    Love this quote.
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.

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    1) I can see America cracking and falling into the sea sometime in my lifetime, so my plan is just to have enough money saved up that I can send my family to Europe or whatever. I'm learning Russian, so between Russian, English and Spanish (and maybe I should learn an African language just to be safe), I think I'll be able to move us to a reasonably safe country, especially if my wife speaks french. I do worry about being able to get my mom, dad, stepmom, and little brother out too... but hopefully the crash will happen after they've passed away. I think that militarily and diplomatically, we have enough street cred to run on fumes for at least 25 more years, short of outright war with China, which we could still very plausibly win. If we can make it fifty, I can be reasonably sure my parents will be gone by then. Actually, I might be getting too old by then, so I may want to at least set up an alternate residence on another continent.

    2) People debate gay marriage and abortion because people genuinely believe those are important moral issues. To ignore moral issues merely because there are practical issues as well is... careless. Of course everything is about balance, and we should care about the practical issues too, but see it from their (my?) perspective: if the United States is legally sanctioning the killing of millions of children every year, and also legally sanctioning the killing of thousands, even hundreds of thousands of innocent Middle Eastern citizens every year, which one am I going to go after the hardest? Won't I fight pretty hard against both? I'm not necessarily saying that "abortion is murder" (my personal argument is that we can't know, and so if you wouldn't blow up a building that there's a fifty-fifty chance a person might be in, you shouldn't get an abortion), or that it should be legally banned in all cases (whatever the morally right choice is, the government cannot tell a woman that she is obligated to bear the child of her rapist or a close relative, or bring to term a pregnancy that will put her life in severe danger, etc). But I am trying to illustrate how some people think about the issue, and why that would motivate them to argue about even in a political climate in which there appear to be more pressing issues.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    1) I can see America cracking and falling into the sea sometime in my lifetime, so my plan is just to have enough money saved up that I can send my family to Europe or whatever. I'm learning Russian, so between Russian, English and Spanish (and maybe I should learn an African language just to be safe), I think I'll be able to move us to a reasonably safe country, especially if my wife speaks french. I do worry about being able to get my mom, dad, stepmom, and little brother out too... but hopefully the crash will happen after they've passed away. I think that militarily and diplomatically, we have enough street cred to run on fumes for at least 25 more years, short of outright war with China, which we could still very plausibly win. If we can make it fifty, I can be reasonably sure my parents will be gone by then. Actually, I might be getting too old by then, so I may want to at least set up an alternate residence on another continent.
    The Russian economy is in the tank and people are leaving that country in droves. The collapse of the second world + reforms over the past 20 years have pretty much turned it into a third world economy.

    Western Europe is a pretty good choice, unless some form of automation sweeps society, they'll need more immigrants to compete with China as they've become too self-indulgent to reproduce more Europeans on their own.

    (I wonder if that ever means the EU will ever try to annex Russia, the Middle East and Africa -- that's another what, billion and a half people?; personally, I'd recommend they do it asap to tie those countries to the EU economy and European nationalism else risk losing out on resources and productivity; or worse, have those countries become pawns of China, something already started in parts of Africa.)

    I'd still recommend putting everything aside and learning Mandarin, especially if you ever plan to go into business. Pick up Hindi while you're at it.

    Learning to deal with a certain smugness and air of vindication from our new overlords might also be a good idea.
    You can do anything with a bayonet except sit on it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    I'd still recommend putting everything aside and learning Mandarin, especially if you ever plan to go into business. Pick up Hindi while you're at it.

    Learning to deal with a certain smugness and air of vindication from our new overlords might also be a good idea.
    What if you're planning to do research, esp. for your government?

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    English will be the lingua franca for some time, maybe forever, but it's always good to talk to the locals on their own terms.

    What if you're planning to do research, esp. for your government?
    Depends on your government. But learn Chinese anyway, it'll make you better in Maths.
    The Chinese Language, Numbers, and Ability in Math
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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    Depends on your government. But learn Chinese anyway, it'll make you better in Maths.
    The Chinese Language, Numbers, and Ability in Math
    Interesting article. I noticed that up until I got a tutor to help me catch up with maths mid-high school, I hated the subject because I was just utterly lost in all the logic and 'knaralksngav. Unfortunately I think most people's experiences with mathematics are akin to them being yelled at by a drill instructor from hell to construct a house of cards in midair

    "If you aren't finding mathematics difficult, you aren't progressing fast enough."

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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    The Russian economy is in the tank and people are leaving that country in droves. The collapse of the second world + reforms over the past 20 years have pretty much turned it into a third world economy.
    I would have to disagree with this. Have you ever been to Moscow? Kind of like a mixture between NYC and Mexico City, but more like NYC. Russia has always had a commodity-based economy due to its climate, geography, and resources. But it's not exactly "in the tank."

    ASHTON: I agree with many of your points, but do you really think that true capitalism is possible in as large and wealthy a country as the U.S.? I tend to think not. If the country split up into states, then both democracy and market freedom would probably improve dramaticaly.

    If you can think of a historical example of a large, wealthy, AND capitalist country, please do so. I can only think of large, state-dominated capitalist economies. The truly capitalist ones either haven't yet built up enough wealth for the wealth to begin to concentrate and dictate political and economic decisions, or they are small and thus have greater localization of decision making.
    Last edited by Rick; 11-04-2010 at 12:16 PM.
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