me

[Satan]

blah so I'm going to talk about myself, cos i'm never personal on here. something about keeping distance or something. anyway. i've been thinking about the past and what i relate to and what i don't.

and in a way i was actually half-serious when i said i could be infp. the thing is some 4-like fixations like, feeling like i'm different from others, and that i don't know my identity and so forth do kind of half-ring true with me, as in i can relate. and i kind of want to feel things strongly etc etc blah blah

anyway,

when i was young i remember telling me that i wasn't like other people, and that i was different and shit. and i also remember that i didn't really seem to relate properly to my family. and i've always been somewhat of an outsider.. i mean really, if i'm honest with myself i'm kind of a loner. i mean why else would i be on a forum?

the thing is if i look to pivotal moments in my life etc i don't really find "big events" instead i find isolated nuggets of being seperate from others, living "apart" from others. being somewhat superior to others.

i mean i used to kind of joke about how everyone else can go kill themselves, how no-one's important to me, and after that somehow people became like meaningless objects to me. and it's like when they talked and acted and so forth i was somewhat removed.

but really what rings true for me, is that i always wanted conflict. war, fighting etc, but in good humour. and on my own terms.

i never wanted to be a pawn in someone else's game. i always seemed to end up in unnecessary useless conflicts not knowing how i got in them and realising i didn't even care to be in them. and i was always kind of accidentally outspoken.

the thing is i hated a lot of ways people acted. like i hated it when people tried to be "nice" to me. i hated when i felt like people weren't "true", i hated it when people were "cautious", i hated it when people were apathetic.

i used to believe if someone didn't respond to me immediately then there was something wrong with them. if people hesitated they were trying to keep something from me. if people were nice to me they were trying to create an illusion on me, so that they could betray me.

and some people even dared to say i was difficult to deal with, so i was like fuck you. but then people would be at me that being like fuck you hurts people and i was like people should stop being so fucking sensitive and then people would complain that i swore too much. so it's like you can't please people.

people would tell me to "go easy" on people, to "interpret things differently", like if i read a slight into something that someone said people would try and be like "maybe they didn't mean it or something" which would make me pissed off at both the person slighting me and the person being all like maybe.

i used to have words like "maybe" that i'd expect people not to use. maybe is a bullshit word. i used to play games like "let's say definitely, let's be certain, let's be sure, don't hold back, all or nothing" but then would be like "you're always" and it's like fuck - oh and then people would be like it's always about you. who me, what? fuck off. (you always swear)

and so in a way i seemed to somehow attract too much attention then try and get rid of it. and i tried to act normal. and i tried to lay low. and i tired to not stick out and shit. and then someone would go yell at me or something and i'd want to fucking punch them. on that note i also hated people saying things like "take it easy", so fucking condescending.

anyway when i was a young teenager or something i had to take some kind of anger management class or something and it was so gay. they wanted us in a line, in rows, and to count to 10 or something. i got to like 2 or 3 and wanted to punch something. maybe i had adhd or something, but anyway, i hated that kind of bullshit. i just wanted to get the fuck out of there.

but it's like these "controlled" environments where you're in lines/rows etc. like pawns in a chessboard, they piss me off something chronic. and i always feel like i know too much or something. like, i know that people want to control me like i'm a peg in a board. and i don't want to play their game.

and i often wished i could be like other people and play the game. and be okay with playing the game. i used to be envious of charismatic people on tv who could act so normal. i was like they're cool with it. they're patient they can play the game. and then i'd find myself wanting to identify with "the bad guys" because they bent more rules. and it's like people were all for the "good guys" and i was quiet. i wouldn't dare speak that i don't actually really feel like i'm capable of being a good guy.

but the thing is, when i was about 12 i remember i could make a choice, i could either rebel and break away even further from where i was or i could compromise. and somehow i chose to compromise. and then every now and then i wonder why i decided to compromise.

and now it's like i can see bad things happening to other people and i don't want to step in. i can like dissasociate. i can be like "i'm not going to get involved", i can be like "it's not about me". i can be apathetic, i can not care. i can turn the other cheek. like i'd been told so many times before. but that just makes me feel weaker and weaker.

anyway,

i think what interested me about personalities in the first place was that i kind of lost my personality at one point in my life, probably around 12, and i haven't reclaimed it. and it seems so far away. and every now and then i get reminders of it. but i'm "half the man i used to be"



on top of all that i seemed to have that problem where you can't name emotions. although curiously enough i was often trying to guess how people felt, verbally out loud. and sometimes people would correct etc. but i was kind of fuzzy and some things just clouded together. like there's "feeling good", "feeling bad", "in between".

But again I used to joke. Like if someone was like how are you today, I would be like "fucking terrible". And then if someone reacted wrongly (like say got really grave) I would just be like everything's cool.

Also there were various things like i paid too much attention. Like I had councelling and shit too. blah blah anger management. disruptive behaviour etc. anyway, i was told by some people that it's like i made them feel self-conscious by paying too much attention to them. So i'd try and tell them to pay me half-attention to neutralise. Then they'd try and tell me that it was "interesting" that i always think other people should adjust themselves for me. And i'd be like it was easier that way. and blah blah you can't expect.

When i saw councellors I tried to set things straight at the start and have a plan and shit. but it never went anywhere productive. they wanted to flow a script, keep me in the dark. gave me fucking psychological testing. weak visual memory, strong pattern finding/matching. slightly above-average intelligence. nothing out of the ordinary.

so i can't reconstruct an image i've just seen very well, can do a few lines. but give me numbers like 3, 5, 7 , 9 i can easily see +2.

not that great with names, but who is, can be difficult to get along with at first, but people can get used to me. impatient and abrupt.

you know all pretty normal. of course no-one really said much about my inability to name emotions and shit. it was just "curious" or "interesting".

it went something like "how would you feel if "... and i would always reframe. and then they would try and say how they'd feel and i'd say their feelings were wrong etc or not helpful, or such, and they would talk about situations beyond their control and start getting emotional. and like my tendency to give advice or look for things to alert of that happening before hand etc. reductive things like someone betrayed trust, and i'd find their first point of doubt and be like go with that. and should have listened at that moment etc. like, i suppose just anchoring to how they perceived without acting etc.

anyway.

where was i going.

oh, so this personality shit. well, like, now days i want to uncover what personality things impact people and what can be done about various things and how to actually get benefit. rather than judging what type famous people or something are.

like when i was young i was a lot more useless interpersonally as when i was at my peak. then i got worse again. but i want to get better again.

i, myself, suffered from not really having any role-models. but what helped me when i was young is that i knew some people who were good at keying into various things. like i'd upset someone, then i'd apologise but at the same time i'd touch them, and that could make some people uncomfortable. and also sometimes i'd be too "reasonable" and logical, and not distant enough, too upclose personal, confrontational etc, wanting to resolve things immediately rather than letting things mend on their own. wanting to control peoples moods and shit whether or not it was about me. like you can't feel bad, when sometimes it helps people become stronger when you let them feel bad for a while etc. you shouldn't intervene too much or too little. long leash, short leash, as long as they have a pulse and they're not going to kill themselves all good!

but at the same i'm realising a lot of people just want to be told what to believe and that's wrong. like what type am i? you should understand for yourself.

i'm still not really sure on my type for myself. but to be honest, i still haven't really looked into it properly. and how long have i been here for? who do i relate to?

it was going around with me being entj for a while, then sle. entj sounded nice, Se hidden agenda. not the worst idea in the world. i can kind of logical, and kind of intuitive to my mind.

but my logic does seem kind of "readily changable", i think creative ti does fit me well, but i've never properly considered se versus ne. i don't really feel like i pay that much attention to power dynamics, i try to side step them. but ne types seem to ignore them. i dunno, that area's fine to leave for me at the moment.

although, if i'm se dominant you'd think i'd have more composure and self-control. and maybe i'm just biased cos all the entp's on here are lame. oh shit, shooting myself in the foot!

so i think i'll just stick with saying i'm infp for a while and maybe it's time for me to get more personally involved now that i've said where i'm coming from.

[redbaron]

wow I enjoyed reading that!

I still think you're Se>Ne. You're very observant, like when you talk about interpersonal relations and the way people are, their physical body-language, their look, their mood. I think it's a false stereotype that says that SLEs can't determine emotions of other people. I think they're rather good at it. They may not always know WHY the emotion is present, but they can see it, they readily observe it.

Also, your ability to change gears quickly speaks of irrationality. Like when you say one thing to someone and they react a particular way and so you say the opposite because you don't like their response or whatever. That's also testing your control, your effect on others.

And, SLEs are often loners (esp. Ti-subs). I dunno many ILEs who are. Or if they are, they're not okay with that.

Okay so IEIs are also often loners. We could go with IEI for you.

[07490]

wow I enjoyed reading that!

I did as well.

I still think you're Se>Ne. You're very observant, like when you talk about interpersonal relations and the way people are, their physical body-language, their look, their mood. I think it's a false stereotype that says that SLEs can't determine emotions of other people. I think they're rather good at it. They may not always know WHY the emotion is present, but they can see it, they readily observe it.

This is a E-8 thing. Do you really think it's about reading emotions, or reading the territory or being strategic?

[07490]

No, I don't think it is an E-8 thing. It is a Se thing.

If you look at an SLE-E3 closely they aren't as aware of control issue as someone like merky does, but E-8 that are other types in socionics ENFj-ENTj, etc... also does this sort of thing. here is a quote.

A good quotation from Lyndon Johnson's biography illustrates enneatype Eight's means of sizing up an individual:

"While Lyndon Johnson was not, as his two assistants knew, a reader of books, he was, they knew, a reader of men--a great reader of men. He had a genius for studying a man and learning his strengths and weaknesses and hopes and fears, his deepest strengths and weaknesses: what it was that the man wanted--not what he said he wanted but what he really wanted--and what it was that the man feared, really feared.

"He tried to teach his young assistants to read men--“Watch their hands, watch their eyes” he told them. “Read eyes. No matter what a man is saying to you, it’s not as important as what you can read in his eyes”--and to read between the lines: more interested in men’s weaknesses than in their strengths because it was weakness that could be exploited, he tried to teach his assistants how to learn a man’s weakness. "The most important thing a man has to tell you is what he isn’t telling you,” he said. "The most important thing a man has to say is what he’s trying not to say.” For that reason, he told them, it was important to keep the man talking; the longer he talked, the more likely he was to let slip a hint of that vulnerability he was so anxious to conceal. “That’s why he wouldn’t let a conversation end." Busby explains. “If he saw the other fellow was trying not to say something, he wouldn’t let it (the conversation) end until he got it out of him.” And Lyndon Johnson himself read with a genius that couldn’t be taught, with a gift that was so instinctive that a close observer of his reading habits, Robert G. (Bobby) Baker, calls it a “sense”; "He seemed to sense each man’s individual price and the commodity he preferred as coin.” He read with a novelist’s sensitivity, with an insight that was unerring, with an ability, shocking in the depth of its penetration and perception, to look into a man’s heart and know his innermost worries and desires. (From Robert Caro's Lyndon Johnson.)

[redbaron]

but I know an E-7 SLE who's also like that.

[07490]

but I know an E-7 SLE who's also like that.

I guess SE plays a role in that, as well as E-8. 7w8?

[redbaron]

I guess SE plays a role in that, as well as E-8. 7w8?

yeah, the one I'm thinking of is 7w8 for sure.

[golden]

I've heard non-E8 egos talk about reading people physically, but I get the sense they're not picking up the same things an E8 would. Something's different about it?

I read people physically, but as might be expected (IEI, E4), the reading is filtered. It has something to do with the instantaneous reactions and associations that the person produces in me. I might stand next to a woman and hear her voice and get all these images of what her life is like: the apron she wears while she cooks, and a mental picture of her running as a child, or of her crying in private over a serious problem, etc.

I would never be good at assessing people in the calculated manner of a Lyndon Johnson. Someone will be near me and I can say they are or aren't trustworthy and honest within a few minutes--basically, I want to know whether the image meeting my outer senses matches the things arising in me internally in response to the person. If there is no mismatch, all is well. If there is a mismatch, I exercise caution until I understand its nature.

And I almost prefer a mismatch that occurs because the person is deliberately setting out to deceive. Otherwise, I'm looking at a person who has some huge blind spots or hypocrisies that will make all my dealings with them problematic.

- - - - -

Merc, you seem very possibly SLE to me still. I'm still pondering what you posted.

[Beautiful sky]

I read people physically, but as might be expected (IEI, E4), the reading is filtered. It has something to do with the instantaneous reactions and associations that the person produces in me. I might stand next to a woman and hear her voice and get all these images of what her life is like: the apron she wears while she cooks, and a mental picture of her running as a child, or of her crying in private over a serious problem, etc.

I would never be good at assessing people in the calculated manner of a Lyndon Johnson. Someone will be near me and I can say they are or aren't trustworthy and honest within a few minutes--basically, I want to know whether the image meeting my outer senses matches the things arising in me internally in response to the person. If there is no mismatch, all is well. If there is a mismatch, I exercise caution until I understand its nature.

And I almost prefer a mismatch that occurs because the person is deliberately setting out to deceive. Otherwise, I'm looking at a person who has some huge blind spots or hypocrisies that will make all my dealings with them problematic.

- - - - -

Merc, you seem very possibly SLE to me still. I'm still pondering what you posted.

This is Ni and I can do this too; I think the reason why I attract so many SLE is because they love to hear this kinda stuff and I feel safe in sharing this aspect of my imagination with them and demonstrate Ni while I talk away about these images I get. You can demonstrate Fi too, like we discussed over the PM and look like me when you talk to my duals...

[Satan]

This is Ni and I can do this too; I think the reason why I attract so many SLE is because they love to hear this kinda stuff and I feel safe in sharing this aspect of my imagination with them and demonstrate Ni while I talk away about these images I get. You can demonstrate Fi too, like we discussed over the PM and look like me when you talk to my duals...

blah blah

[Satan]

I read people physically, but as might be expected (IEI, E4), the reading is filtered. It has something to do with the instantaneous reactions and associations that the person produces in me. I might stand next to a woman and hear her voice and get all these images of what her life is like: the apron she wears while she cooks, and a mental picture of her running as a child, or of her crying in private over a serious problem, etc.

you should become a writer.

I would never be good at assessing people in the calculated manner of a Lyndon Johnson. Someone will be near me and I can say they are or aren't trustworthy and honest within a few minutes--basically, I want to know whether the image meeting my outer senses matches the things arising in me internally in response to the person. If there is no mismatch, all is well. If there is a mismatch, I exercise caution until I understand its nature.

Insecurities can be endearing.

And I almost prefer a mismatch that occurs because the person is deliberately setting out to deceive. Otherwise, I'm looking at a person who has some huge blind spots or hypocrisies that will make all my dealings with them problematic.

Pretty common.

- - - - -

Merc, you seem very possibly SLE to me still. I'm still pondering what you posted.

Really? I got over it after writing it.

[Satan]

Dunno if that's both actually. I'm E8 and know exactly what Johnson's talking about—a person telling you everything you need to know in their eyes and subtle body language (it's why I mostly use VI to type people). A person's voice will tell you a lot too, if you know how to listen to it. Everyone gives themselves away one way or another.

True.

It weirds me out when people are totally disconnected from this information and don't know how to read it. They might as well be aliens.

And blame the wrong things and get things wrong and be a pain in the ass?

I've heard non-E8 egos talk about reading people physically, but I get the sense they're not picking up the same things an E8 would. Something's different about it?

Merky, didn't you think at one time you were E8? I remember talking to you about it before or something.

Yeah I wondered at one time. I wondered about 5 too for a while.

[Satan]

Hey! That's my position. Fuck off.

...

And don't read up on Socionics. It's useless.

....

Hmm.. Funny you'd say you once decided people wouldn't control you, and then you talk about how you have adjusted your life and your reactions depending on other people's reactions... Take control.

If you are in control, other people's attempts of adjusting you , won't bite on you anymore. Not emotionally, not physically. If you are now distancing yourself from others, is it not just a way for you to try and avoid that they control you? They wouldn't so easily get to you, if you were stronger inside, and knew exactly what you want and what your position is. Find out. Most of your post describe defense-mechanisms. Stop defending and know what you are. And fuck Fe hidden agenda.

Life is funny like that.

[Blaze]

your Fi polr is different than mine. you think you are superior and you suspect that people are out to get you making you somewhat paranoid. my SLE ex husband gave me some of his paranoia, it rubbed off on me but i don't think it was originally mine. in natural conditions, i am too trusting.

a lot of male SLE's either don't get a role model or they have a shitty one for who they are. the best role model for an SLE is another SLE i think.

the educational system penalizes the learning style of an SLE, making the school/growing up thing an alienating experience.

but perhaps the natural way for an SLE to learn is from the school of hard knocks anyway.

you are describing a process of having to constantly adjust yourself so as to avoid consequences and this makes you think you are not being yourself. that no matter how much you adjust yourself people are not happy. you sound a little caged and held back from who you really are and how you want to be able to act.

identifying with the bad guy or the underdog is classic. it is connected to the feeling of having to adjust or hold back ^. because the bad guy is also held back or in check and constrained by society. in hanging with other bad guys it's not so fucking lonely and there is greater freedom if not safety in that. this attitude can mobilize beta, even though the other members of beta do not share the feeling of alienation.

your lack of empathy is balanced by knowing what people seem to need in chaotic circumstances. you can create instability and chaos so that you have a role in reining it back in. you gravitate to emergent situations where you can think quickly, act fast, and mobilize forces. this is your best place to be and feel a part of.

SLE is a lonely place to be since your personal power won't allow you to share your ideas and point of view with many people. you are alone with your thoughts and you keep it that way. if you give up your thoughts and feelings you think that people will gain too much of an advantage over you.

a feeling of inner peace and personal spiritual meaning is what would satisfy. someone who can turn your attention at strategic points to the inner whole instead of the outer whole. someone who can handle your bullshit.

all that said, i don't interact w you much on this forum, but when i read what you wrote, i kind of like you, even though i can see you are potentially dangerous.

[golden]

your Fi polr is different than mine. you think you are superior and you suspect that people are out to get you making you somewhat paranoid. my SLE ex husband gave me some of his paranoia, it rubbed off on me but i don't think it was originally mine. in natural conditions, i am too trusting.

a lot of male SLE's either don't get a role model or they have a shitty one for who they are. the best role model for an SLE is another SLE i think.

the educational system penalizes the learning style of an SLE, making the school/growing up thing an alienating experience.

but perhaps the natural way for an SLE to learn is from the school of hard knocks anyway.

you are describing a process of having to constantly adjust yourself so as to avoid consequences and this makes you think you are not being yourself. that no matter how much you adjust yourself people are not happy. you sound a little caged and held back from who you really are and how you want to be able to act.

identifying with the bad guy or the underdog is classic. it is connected to the feeling of having to adjust or hold back ^. because the bad guy is also held back or in check and constrained by society. in hanging with other bad guys it's not so fucking lonely and there is greater freedom if not safety in that. this attitude can mobilize beta, even though the other members of beta do not share the feeling of alienation.

your lack of empathy is balanced by knowing what people seem to need in chaotic circumstances. you can create instability and chaos so that you have a role in reining it back in. you gravitate to emergent situations where you can think quickly, act fast, and mobilize forces. this is your best place to be and feel a part of.

SLE is a lonely place to be since your personal power won't allow you to share your ideas and point of view with many people. you are alone with your thoughts and you keep it that way. if you give up your thoughts and feelings you think that people will gain too much of an advantage over you.

a feeling of inner peace and personal spiritual meaning is what would satisfy. someone who can turn your attention at strategic points to the inner whole instead of the outer whole. someone who can handle your bullshit.

all that said, i don't interact w you much on this forum, but when i read what you wrote, i kind of like you, even though i can see you are potentially dangerous.

This whole post fascinated me. It's for Merc to say whether it applies.

I would only disagree--on personal grounds--with the bolded part. First, you made me realize I didn't like Merc better because of what he wrote, but I liked him better because he wrote it and revealed something about himself. I also don't find him potentially dangerous.

Maybe just more honest than average.