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Thread: Beta "Victim-Aggressor" conqueror-prize dynamics

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    ladyinred's Avatar
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    Default Beta "Victim-Aggressor" conqueror-prize dynamics

    Conquerors: ESTp, ISTj
    These are assertive types who do not flinch at their own sexuality. They will express their own desire without reservation. They are won over by direct shows of submission (only after feeling that they have earned it). He will be insulted if his romantic interest gives him his title without question, and bored if the fight is too easily won. He, like the Pseudo-Aggressor and the Challenger, is questing to find his equal. Someone he can play his almost sadistic games with without "breaking."
    Challengers/Prize: INFp, ENFj
    These are the types who unconsciously throw a "gauntlet" down for their opponents. They know on an almost subliminal level exactly who they are looking for, and anyone who does not fit the bill will be subjected to a rather flakey, hot-cold game of courting tag. As a result, they may appear (both to others and to themselves) rather amorphous and can take on qualities of the other romantic attitudes, depending on the situation and who they are "challenging." They may, for example, give the victim half his aggressor, the psuedo-aggressor a little victim, the caregiver a bit of his child, etc. They react best, however, to those who do not "break" as a result of their games, but grant them a level of autonomy. Healthy examples of this type will have a sense of self-esteem, and may think of themselves as the "prize" that will be given only to the rightful owner.
    I SOOO do this
    Although, sometimes it really is unconscious!

    I have always thought of myself as a prize to be earned in a way and yet I am totally and 100 percent devoted when I am with someone who has earned me, I have noticed it is almost only SLEs and LSIs who are able, and willing perhaps, to rise to this challenge. I used to think it would annoy guys, after bad experiences with nonBetas, and maybe its annoyed some, but theyre not the ones for me then. Are others here the same?? I'd love to hear from other Beta NFs and especially Beta STs

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    Darn Socks Director Abbie's Avatar
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    SLE male fights SLE male. One wins IEI female. How nicely stereotypical.

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    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Is there a link for Gamma aggressors/victims?
    /

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    Creepy-male

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    Its for this reason I actually like beta, this stuff sounds a lot more interesting than the stuff that is written about the other quadras.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saoshyant View Post
    Is there a link for Gamma aggressors/victims?
    Psuedo-Aggressors/Employee: INTp, ENTj
    These are types who exhibit aggressive tendencies in their everyday life, and as a result tend to carry over these notions and temperaments into their romantic life. They typically are not comfortable with connotations of the word "victim" - implying a certain weakness, effeteness, and lack of dignity. In searching for a partner, they are looking for a worthy opponent - someone who is strong enough to withstand their quirks without "breaking" so to speak.

    Aggressors/Employer: ESFp, ISFj
    These types, like the conquerors, express their sexuality openly. In daily life they may tend to be rather submissive and as a result may tend to carry over these tendencies into their romantic life. They are won over by indirect acts of submission, and are thrilled when their love interest (in the case of the "psuedo-aggressor" type) acts unlike himself. In a partner, they are looking for their equal - someone whose solid facade they can break down piece by piece.
    (taken from: similarminds.com :: View topic - More on socionics and sex, which links back to an old thread of ours I'm still trying to find)

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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    Its for this reason I actually like beta, this stuff sounds a lot more interesting than the stuff that is written about the other quadras.
    HLD, I often sorta think of you as SLE. Even though I guess your self-type is ILE?
    IEI-Fe 4w3

  7. #7
    Creepy-male

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    Any Se I have is fake role-Se at best, I could see myself as LSI if I was beta ST more so than SLE.... but honestly I think any Se I give off is from the role function being expressed... I've been considering a beta subtype, but I think LII or ILE is the closest type to what I am.

    Haha also starfall hates me, she would be grossly offended if I happened to become a member of beta quadra, she would be grossly offended if I ever so much as considered the notion.... but I don't really care, I'm after the truth here! but like I said, I lean to ILE the most now so rest assured, beta quadra is not infested by the likes of me.

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    it seems like it would take a lot of confidence to pursue someone who runs away from you or to think of yourself as a prize as the descriptions lay out. i assume that the conqueror and prize scenario plays out similarly regardless of the health or self-esteem of the parties involved so i wonder how it works if one or either isn't that sure of themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    HLD, I often sorta think of you as SLE. Even though I guess your self-type is ILE?
    when i read his posts i see Ne times a zillion, lol.

    i'm glad when i have the attention span to read his longer posts because i usually end up laughing a lot or thinking of something i hadn't thought about before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starfall View Post
    Nahh, I don't hate you. I just really can't see you as SLE or my dual.

    I mean honestly, where's the Se? I only see Ne.
    This quote here, "Haha also starfall hates me, she would be grossly offended if I happened to become a member of beta quadra, she would be grossly offended if I ever so much as considered the notion.... but I don't really care, I'm after the truth here! but like I said, I lean to ILE the most now so rest assured, beta quadra is not infested by the likes of me.", I think means something...

    Like he's mind-reading people having negative judgements of him. I don't know what it means in relation to socionics. But it makes me see someone as "weak, dishonest, probably a cheater, skeptical, cautious, not trust worthy" etc... like someone irrational with no self-control who will jump to strange accusations at the drop of a hair pain.

    Actually is that Se PoLR?

    Anyway, I have a question for you starfall. When people act like that to you, do you judge them for it?

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    I definitely see myself as a male example of a prize, in a sense - I'm very subtle and indirect with women, yet romantic commitment is one of my absolute top priorities in life. I tend to be with someone if I've seen them as permanently winning over my heart, and then see my future plans as all including them, consisting almost entirely of a blissful and happy life with them - it was relatively fine with my first ex-girlfriend (EIE), a relationship that lasted a year, but somewhat creeped out my SEE ex-girlfriend, a relationship that lasted 5 months, after a very intense and passionate first two months where she felt the same way. I'm still not over her, and frankly doubt I'll ever be - I still consider myself entirely hers, and want nothing more than that happy future in which I can protect her and be there with her.
    2-subtype system: IEI-Fe
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    "He who has felt the deepest grief is best able to experience supreme happiness. We must have felt what it is to die, that we may appreciate the enjoyments of living." - Edmond Dantes (The Count of Monte Cristo, Alexandre Dumas père)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starfall View Post
    Exactly, Merky. I doubt a SLE would ever say bs like that.

    To answer your question, I suppose I can't help but judge that kind of behavior. Its just comes off as annoying and whiny to me. I remember Cyclops used to do the exact same thing & it would always grate at my nerves.
    I've been known to try and reason with people when they're like that.

    But like it never seems easy to me. It's kind of like dealing with difficult children. Which isn't easy for me either, but I don't want to let on or they may try and wear me down!

  12. #12
    Creepy-male

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starfall View Post
    Nahh, I don't hate you. I just really can't see you as SLE or my dual.

    I mean honestly, where's the Se? I only see Ne.
    Yea Ne > Se, blah blah blah, I didn't even bring the idea up.

    Quote Originally Posted by mercutio View Post
    Like he's mind-reading people having negative judgements of him. I don't know what it means in relation to socionics. But it makes me see someone as "weak, dishonest, probably a cheater, skeptical, cautious, not trust worthy" etc... like someone irrational with no self-control who will jump to strange accusations at the drop of a hair pain.

    Actually is that Se PoLR?

    Anyway, I have a question for you starfall. When people act like that to you, do you judge them for it?
    Lol your calling me.... "weak, dishonest, probably a cheater, skeptical, cautious, not trust worthy" etc...... and I'm the supposed mind-reader.... all I said is that starfall hates me... what I should have said was probably (its more Ne) hates me, but I figured that was assumed since mind reading doesn't exist.

    When I said that it was only a hunch, and one with some basis, when someone says hell no at the prospect of you being their dual, its fairly fucking obvious they aren't the biggest fan of you.

    I'm not trying to compete here so stop trying to make this something awkward, I think starfall can at least back me up by saying that she doesn't like the idea of me being her dual, for whatever reason. That's all I was saying.... how do you get that I'm a "cheater" from that lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starfall View Post
    To answer your question, I suppose I can't help but judge that kind of behavior. Its just comes off as annoying and whiny to me. I remember Cyclops used to do the exact same thing & it would always grate at my nerves.
    Lol then obviously you don't like me, it's not going to hurt my feelings to have a single person in 5 billion on the internet tell me they don't like me, just say it and be done with it. I was right obviously, so there is no whiny annoyingness.... just say "I don't like you, I find you whiny and annoying".... and there we can split ways and not make a little un-necessary drama out of this. You can go find an SLE to engage in such activities with, but I am not interested in such things.

    Also to be very calm, consider the actual manner in which you are reading my posts, if you hear it being narrated by a whiny person, sure it sounds whiny, but I assure you, if I were to speak this in person it would come across amazingly calm, cold, and level headed. You could be reading more emotion into it than necessary, especially since your a feeling type.
    Last edited by male; 10-29-2010 at 05:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aixelsyd View Post
    Quadra value clashes in the works.
    Yea its a possibility.... I'm getting picked at because I presumptuously claimed starfall doesn't like me and a bunch of stuff happens which leads to starfall explaining how she doesn't like me. So well.... um am I missing something here, or can we just part ways and forgo any un-necessary drama?

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    Quote Originally Posted by aixelsyd View Post
    Might have to do with weak Se and weak Fe coupled with paranoia.
    Lol I am not paranoid, I am just finding the evolution of events from the conversation amusingly stupid and revealing of alterior motives, and the accusations against me completely unreasonable and unfounded. Point is I don't think of myself as SLE, I'm ILE, end of fucking story. Its simple.

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    Creepy-male

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    Quote Originally Posted by aixelsyd View Post
    We can just take it as more reason to keep studying Socionics, part ways, and move on, I think. Unless we all are THAT bored and in need of stimulation, of course. Kidding, mostly, but well. I was never that good at cracking jokes. Irony is more my bag. I just couldn't help but notice how it is similar to small squabbles I have had where my manner of expression offends the other party because it goes against innate values and their style of expression makes me go all 'wtf, holy shit...what did I do/what do I do? lol?' time to time. It's almost amusing when I think about it.

    edit: And if you are not paranoid, then I guess it's just one of us who is. =P
    Nah its just I can see the potential events unfolding in this "struggle" if you wish to call it that, obviously there is nothing for me to gain from arguing with merc and starfall, so its a potential waste of effort. All that is left is a nagging itchy feeling of annoyance because essentially I'm being accused of being paranoid and weak and whatever, but that is life, people will act like idiots and won't conform to your ideals for them, so you can't let that get you down, its normal.

    On the subject of innate values and styles of expression.... its all relative. In the middle east if you cross your legs and show the sole of your foot, this could offend someone. Lower level intellects respond offended to such offenses, but more intelligent human beings are capable of determining whether the "offended" party was or was not aware of the customs and what they intended to communicate through this expression of revealing the bottom of your sole. It's a communications issue, personally I'm not perfect, but I'll finely tune my communications skills over sit in the basement and cry myself to sleep over my small squabbles. It's also relative, if someone gives you a hard time about your squabbles and it gets too much, turn the table on them, and see how the fuck they feel about it.

    Finally on the subject of paranoia, I think everyone is a bit paranoid, but the question is functionality... I'm obviously healthy enough to interact with people in school, work, and socially with friends. I always measure my behavior against society at the practical level to determine my psychological health. At a higher level I have more idealistic values but I usually don't share these with people I perceive as enemies, who give off antagonistic vibes... like merky... would I really expect for him to have the ability to engage in a philosophical discussion with me over the nature of society... probably not.... in fact I'll test him....

    "Hey merk, do you wish to talk about the nature of society"

    lets see if I am right and he will respond with some antagonistic response that will divulge the conversation into the intellectual toilet.

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    shit, lucids, have a beer.. relax. take it easy, you'll be fine,.

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    Creepy-male

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    Alright alright, I'm calm. <---- (self explanation)

    Last edited by male; 10-30-2010 at 03:37 PM.

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    I am definately not an easy person. I am difficult and hard to get close to even if I'm open and friendly to almost everybody most of the time. It's my privacy that's mine alone and I choose the people who get closer and a share of that privacy. I am also slow and cautious generally so it might take a lot of patience and perseverence from the other party for starters which understandably leaves out like almost everyone who wants to get to know me and be even close to the thought of more "intimate" with me. And I know I don't always even respond to it too well (depends on the person really). Idk, those who manage to cross and are allowed to the borders will get their "prize" though... It would be a special place in my life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    Any Se I have is fake role-Se at best, I could see myself as LSI if I was beta ST more so than SLE.... but honestly I think any Se I give off is from the role function being expressed... I've been considering a beta subtype, but I think LII or ILE is the closest type to what I am.

    Haha also starfall hates me, she would be grossly offended if I happened to become a member of beta quadra, she would be grossly offended if I ever so much as considered the notion.... but I don't really care, I'm after the truth here! but like I said, I lean to ILE the most now so rest assured, beta quadra is not infested by the likes of me.
    ILE´s fit well with beta. i do think you are ILE lucid. do you know Starfall IRL? why do you say she doesn´t like you?

    if you are a Ti subtype then you lean more beta anyway.

    i agree that beta is interesting. i get along well with betas....unfortunately, alpha is not a strong united quadra. LII and ESE lean delta. SEI blends well with everybody. i think a lot of ILE´s find a guest slot in beta. so i don´t think ILE infests beta like you say.

    ?shrugs?

    anyway, HCD it doesn´t do any good to try to pre empt rejection. if it comes it comes. mercutio is right it only makes you look paranoid. which by the way is a little like the pot calling the kettle black since SLE is one of the most paranoid of all the types.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    How does this go between EIE and LSI??

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    ...If I could slap some sense into each and every one of you, I would.

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    Quote Originally Posted by goddessinred
    I have always thought of myself as a prize to be earned in a way and yet I am totally and 100 percent devoted when I am with someone who has earned me, I have noticed it is almost only SLEs and LSIs who are able, and willing perhaps, to rise to this challenge.
    3 questions:

    1) How much do you cost
    2) How many have won you before
    3) Picture
    Last edited by Reuben; 10-15-2011 at 09:47 PM. Reason: to calm down oversensitive mod
    She is wise
    beyond words
    beautiful within
    her soul
    brighter than
    the sun
    lovelier than
    love
    dreams larger
    than life
    and does not
    understand the
    meaning of no.
    Because everything
    through her, and in her, is
    "Yes, it will be done."


    Why I love LSEs:
    Quote Originally Posted by Abbie
    A couple years ago I was put in charge of decorating the college for Valentine's Day. I made some gorgeous, fancy decorations from construction paper, glue, scissors, and imagination. Then I covered a couple cabinets with them. But my favorite was the diagram of a human heart I put up. So romantic!

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    Whatever I am (propably SLE or ILE), I'm a subtype, thus closer to Beta, and I really love INFps if I have to strive for them, assuming they seem worth it. I'm going to get my ass kicked for this IEI. He's brother is on bad terms with me and I don't want to hurt him knowing how much he means to her sister. His angry me for a good reason and if he can just let it out on me while I won't defend myself, I feel that I fought for my prize in a way that many men wouldn't. After he beats me, I'm going to apologize and if required, I'll be hoping still have the will strong enough to take another beating. But I won't let him stop me.

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    Memory of Tomorrow Reuben's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manlydood
    His angry me for a good reason
    What is that good reason?
    Last edited by Reuben; 10-15-2011 at 09:47 PM. Reason: to calm down oversensitive mod
    She is wise
    beyond words
    beautiful within
    her soul
    brighter than
    the sun
    lovelier than
    love
    dreams larger
    than life
    and does not
    understand the
    meaning of no.
    Because everything
    through her, and in her, is
    "Yes, it will be done."


    Why I love LSEs:
    Quote Originally Posted by Abbie
    A couple years ago I was put in charge of decorating the college for Valentine's Day. I made some gorgeous, fancy decorations from construction paper, glue, scissors, and imagination. Then I covered a couple cabinets with them. But my favorite was the diagram of a human heart I put up. So romantic!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reuben View Post
    What is that good reason?
    One that you won't hear.

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    Memory of Tomorrow Reuben's Avatar
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    Have fun getting beat up for a girl.
    She is wise
    beyond words
    beautiful within
    her soul
    brighter than
    the sun
    lovelier than
    love
    dreams larger
    than life
    and does not
    understand the
    meaning of no.
    Because everything
    through her, and in her, is
    "Yes, it will be done."


    Why I love LSEs:
    Quote Originally Posted by Abbie
    A couple years ago I was put in charge of decorating the college for Valentine's Day. I made some gorgeous, fancy decorations from construction paper, glue, scissors, and imagination. Then I covered a couple cabinets with them. But my favorite was the diagram of a human heart I put up. So romantic!

  27. #27
    Creepy-male

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze View Post
    anyway, HCD it doesn´t do any good to try to pre empt rejection. if it comes it comes. mercutio is right it only makes you look paranoid.
    I don't really see it this way, I'd rather be immediately in the know on what someone thinks about me, rather than waste time, so making a strong statement like that forces out a person's opinion rather than being stuck in an ambivalent zone. I really don't mind rejection from people on a forum. What really gets me is the fact that I've been told this makes me mentally unhealthy (paranoid/untrustworthy)-- that's what was fucking annoying about this.

    Also originally I meant it in a joking tone, I think everyone on here took it way too seriously.

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    The prevalence of "conqueror and prize" sentiment when discussing ESTp and INFp relations leaves me asking one minor question:

    Is there a moment when these two types can just sit together on the couch, not say a word, to be without this roleplaying, and still romantically coexist?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Rockwell View Post
    The prevalence of "conqueror and prize" sentiment when discussing ESTp and INFp relations leaves me asking one minor question:

    Is there a moment when these two types can just sit together on the couch, not say a word, to be without this roleplaying, and still romantically coexist?
    Yes?

    (with the help of valium)
    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    Nobody here...besides me, seems to know what SLE is except for maybe Maritsa.

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    That's interesting because when I think of it too I can't imagine SLE and IEI settling down and having a peaceful, "normal" married life...does that actually happen?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jessie
    That's interesting because when I think of it too I can't imagine SLE and IEI settling down and having a peaceful, "normal" married life...does that actually happen?
    Of course it does.

    Quote Originally Posted by starbitch
    wow, lol. I come off as such a bitch in this thread. hahaha
    *spank*
    She is wise
    beyond words
    beautiful within
    her soul
    brighter than
    the sun
    lovelier than
    love
    dreams larger
    than life
    and does not
    understand the
    meaning of no.
    Because everything
    through her, and in her, is
    "Yes, it will be done."


    Why I love LSEs:
    Quote Originally Posted by Abbie
    A couple years ago I was put in charge of decorating the college for Valentine's Day. I made some gorgeous, fancy decorations from construction paper, glue, scissors, and imagination. Then I covered a couple cabinets with them. But my favorite was the diagram of a human heart I put up. So romantic!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129 View Post
    That's interesting because when I think of it too I can't imagine SLE and IEI settling down and having a peaceful, "normal" married life...does that actually happen?
    Doesn't that only happen after they have settled their drama and tired from fighting, just relieved, maybe after some reconciliation sex?

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    not a bumblebee octo's Avatar
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    Seriously though, I think it does. I haven't got that much experience, but my boyfriend and I have been together for 1.5 years and all the proper drama died down after the first 6 months, now it just feels like comfortable stability. From what I know Ezra's relationship with his IEI girlfriend has followed a similar trajectory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    Nobody here...besides me, seems to know what SLE is except for maybe Maritsa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Whatever I am (propably SLE or ILE), I'm a subtype, thus closer to Beta, and I really love INFps if I have to strive for them, assuming they seem worth it. I'm going to get my ass kicked for this IEI. He's brother is on bad terms with me and I don't want to hurt him knowing how much he means to her sister. His angry me for a good reason and if he can just let it out on me while I won't defend myself, I feel that I fought for my prize in a way that many men wouldn't. After he beats me, I'm going to apologize and if required, I'll be hoping still have the will strong enough to take another beating. But I won't let him stop me.
    ....Im sorry, but wtf type shit is this. You people are becoming more and more pathetic each and everyday.

    In that case I hope he beats you to a pulp, like orange juice.

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    Memory of Tomorrow Reuben's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by takoyaki girl
    Seriously though, I think it does. I haven't got that much experience, but my boyfriend and I have been together for 1.5 years and all the proper drama died down after the first 6 months, now it just feels like comfortable stability. From what I know Ezra's relationship with his IEI girlfriend has followed a similar trajectory.
    Duality. Think it works out that way.

    I think after awhile everyone loves the silence of each others mouth, and the overwhelming of each other's hearts.
    She is wise
    beyond words
    beautiful within
    her soul
    brighter than
    the sun
    lovelier than
    love
    dreams larger
    than life
    and does not
    understand the
    meaning of no.
    Because everything
    through her, and in her, is
    "Yes, it will be done."


    Why I love LSEs:
    Quote Originally Posted by Abbie
    A couple years ago I was put in charge of decorating the college for Valentine's Day. I made some gorgeous, fancy decorations from construction paper, glue, scissors, and imagination. Then I covered a couple cabinets with them. But my favorite was the diagram of a human heart I put up. So romantic!

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    Decadent Charlatan Aquagraph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agee View Post
    ....Im sorry, but wtf type shit is this. You people are becoming more and more pathetic each and everyday.
    Before I knew a fucking a word about socionics, I took beatings without fighting back, just provoking some rednecks and general assholes to hit me more. It gave me a sense of superiority as they were frustrated, seeing that I'm not silenced with their only weapon, fists.
    I'm also a hardcore Gandhi fan. And a wacko. Besides I want to be he's friend so maybe I should just let him take it out on me, I've propably wronged him more than he'll wrong me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agee View Post
    In that case I hope he beats you to a pulp, like orange juice.
    He can't. He's EII.

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    Memory of Tomorrow Reuben's Avatar
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    The true warrior fights without fighting, and leaves without a scar. Work on the second part.
    She is wise
    beyond words
    beautiful within
    her soul
    brighter than
    the sun
    lovelier than
    love
    dreams larger
    than life
    and does not
    understand the
    meaning of no.
    Because everything
    through her, and in her, is
    "Yes, it will be done."


    Why I love LSEs:
    Quote Originally Posted by Abbie
    A couple years ago I was put in charge of decorating the college for Valentine's Day. I made some gorgeous, fancy decorations from construction paper, glue, scissors, and imagination. Then I covered a couple cabinets with them. But my favorite was the diagram of a human heart I put up. So romantic!

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    Decadent Charlatan Aquagraph's Avatar
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    As I contact him with a letter where I declare my readiness for asskicking, he'll propably be very hesitant to fight as i am willfully defenseless.
    There are chances he will fight me. In either case, I triumph.

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    Well what did you do? Did you steal his bags of pot or something? ILEs are such swindlers. You really have to watch your shit when they're in your house. Always remember that.

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    Decadent Charlatan Aquagraph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reuben
    What is that good reason?
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph
    One that you won't hear.
    Same applies to you too.

    Current consensus on me is SLE.
    Last edited by Aquagraph; 10-18-2011 at 04:00 PM.

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