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Thread: Introverted intuition Ni defined as emerging mental imagery

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    Default Introverted intuition Ni defined as emerging mental imagery

    emerging mental imagery.

    Lately, I've been reconsidering my understanding of Ni. Before, I was basically defining it as implicit causation, or unapparent causation. The awareness of how an event is caused and what effect it will cause. I still think this is part of Ni, but I'm starting to think it's only one aspect of it which isn't what Ni really focuses on all the time. I was thinking that Ni is actually mental images which come to awareness from seemingly no immediate source. Ni base types would essentially travel along images of the mind which may be events of the past or compositions of those events. What they're focused on is essentially the same as a dream: events which happen that may be in someway based on events of the past, the events themselves, or similar events. The level of control would be similar to a dream as well. There is only a degree of control over what images come to mind. Often things just unfold the way that a person would expect it to rather than what they would like it to. So the reason why they are often known as being aware of events in time is because they focus on the visualization of how things may have been caused or what they will cause. Of course all people have this mental imagery and vision, but the Ni type would have the most conscious awareness of it.

    Do you think this is accurate?
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    when you see the booty Galen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azeroffs View Post
    emerging mental imagery.

    Lately, I've been reconsidering my understanding of Ni. Before, I was basically defining it as implicit causation, or unapparent causation. The awareness of how an event is caused and what effect it will cause. I still think this is part of Ni, but I'm starting to think it's only one aspect of it which isn't what Ni really focuses on all the time. I was thinking that Ni is actually mental images which come to awareness from seemingly no immediate source. Ni base types would essentially travel along images of the mind which may be events of the past or compositions of those events. What they're focused on is essentially the same as a dream: events which happen that may be in someway based on events of the past, the events themselves, or similar events. The level of control would be similar to a dream as well. There is only a degree of control over what images come to mind. Often things just unfold the way that a person would expect it to rather than what they would like it to. So the reason why they are often known as being aware of events in time is because they focus on the visualization of how things may have been caused or what they will cause. Of course all people have this mental imagery and vision, but the Ni type would have the most conscious awareness of it.

    Do you think this is accurate?
    I think it's important to distinguish this description of Ni as something separate from all the rational functions. I feel like anyone can some to those conclusions, about why something is caused and how something will result, via an information output process. But in Ni's case, it seems like that sort of information is what is immediately input, not generated by the Ni valuer himself.
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

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    Ni actually makes predictions

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    Creepy-Korpsey

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    For me it's a mental visual/auditory stream that examines the potential origins and outcomes of observed phenomena, an exploration of possible-world scenarios. It doesn't spring from nowhere but from recollections and aspirations, leading to predictions and anticipations. Nor is it out of my control; although it sometimes presents imagery or leads to conclusions that I'd rather have left un-thought, it is something I can direct while in a relaxed and detached state. It's only under extreme, prolonged duress that it falls under the direction of wholly unconscious forces and thus seems to take on a life of its own.

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    That's not true. My brain isn't very mental image-like (photogenic or whatever that word is called), and I have to work at it to become that way, sooo it's not a natural thing. Ni is more of the 'synthesis of ideas.' The combination of ideals, which is what makes the predictions, forecasts and insights.

    That synthesis of ideas is exactly what makes people good writers. Ni-egos are the writers of the socion, INFps in particular.

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    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
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    I don't see pictures. I don't "see" anything. Ni manifests to me in a sort of recognition: this fits with that fits with that fits with that meaning this. It's not visual... it's purely abstract. It's not even a specific verbal thing, although I find it easiest to get such revelations into words. It's just a thing, a knowledge, pure abstraction. The reason its a perceiving thing is because this doesn't happen as a result of evaluation, but rather "comes upon" me as a result of experience; it's like another part of the very experience in question, and in that sense, it is perceptual/irrational rather than evaluative/rational.

    I think that there is generally an immediate source, but it is emergent in the sense that it transcends the source, probably because it takes bits and pieces from so many sources, some of which are probably "unconscious."

    I think in a general sense, Ni is awareness of relationships between the essential (internal) properties of objects: it's viewing a coffee cup not as a coffee cup but as white, container, object, small, ceramic, cylindrical, food-related, kitchen-related, house-related, etc., and then whirling these properties around with another object, say an umbrella: small, black, unfolding, can open, plastic handle, etc. And then it's drawing meaning from these comparisons: coffee cup handle is ceramic, umbrella handle is plastic. Ceramic is associated with hard, with earth, but also with polished. Plastic associated with artificial, with man-made, with smooth but not smooth like... not glossy smooth. A flatter sort of smooth. And so on and so forth. It's these "hidden" connections and similarities and dissimilarities, and suddenly it all smooshes together into a larger revelation, and those larger revelations can themselves be spun in the drier until they smack together into an EVEN LARGER revelation, and so on and so forth.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    Pi in general deals with emergent content... Ni just tracks a subset of properties of a unit of such content so as to generalize over it (i.e. cognize all units of content that share the subset of properties).

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    Creepy-Korpsey

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    That's not true. My brain isn't very mental image-like (photogenic or whatever that word is called), and I have to work at it to become that way, sooo it's not a natural thing.
    It's true for people like me who think in pictures and sound, irrespective of type. That my post begins with "For me..." indicates that the subsequent description of Ni comes from personal experience.

    Ni is more of the 'synthesis of ideas.' The combination of ideals, which is what makes the predictions, forecasts and insights.
    I agree with your syncretic characterization of Ni; it seeks qualitative and causal linkages in the course of harmonizing internalized data.

    Ni-egos are the writers of the socion, INFps in particular.
    Quality writing is hardly unique to Ni egos. I know any number of ISFps, ESTjs, and other non-INFps who write persuasively and with great clarity and style.

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    Quote Originally Posted by k0rps3y View Post
    It's true for people like me who think in pictures and sound, irrespective of type. That my post begins with "For me..." indicates that the subsequent description of Ni comes from personal experience.
    Actually, really good writing skill seems to be an FiNe thing. (or thereabouts)

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    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    What about NiFeTi?

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    I also see Ni a lot like silverchris describes. When I say "mental imagery", I never really mean it as visual or audiary or even verbal content. It's mental, abstract, conceptual. It's like something brewing just below the surface, and there's no following each step directly, but I feel it emerge, an indirect connection which weaves everything together. But it's not a sudden a-ha feeling I often see described in MBTI sources. It's there, happening all the time, and I'm somehow aware of this, even when it's intangible.

    Only when I need to explain, just put into words or otherwise express these thoughts, they're made somehow more explicit. Especially when dealing with something like math or coding, it helps a lot, as explicit connections are important there, and I sometimes don't realize myself how much I leave those out when left on my own.

    I wouldn't be surprised if Si was more concrete, more focused on images or sounds or other sensations in its imaginations. Though it's a Ni thread, can any Si ego try to describe it?

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    FWIW, I often experience Ne as self-contained aha! or eureka moments.
    You can do anything with a bayonet except sit on it.

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    Creepy-Korpsey

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    Regardless of the content or form of the data processed by Ni, the mechanical aspects of everyone's descriptions largely jibe with my experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    FWIW, I often experience Ne as self-contained aha! or eureka moments.
    Ne is "eureka, I found a new idea to my problem!"

    Ni is "eureka, I found the missing link in my problem!"
    "Everyone carries a shadow, and the less it is embodied in the individual’s conscious life, the blacker and denser it is.
    At all counts, it forms an unconscious snag, thwarting our most well-meant intentions."

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    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    It's easier to understand using fields and bodies.

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    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KeroZen View Post
    Ne is "eureka, I found a new idea to my problem!"

    Ni is "eureka, I found the missing link in my problem!"
    Right. Both are implicit perceptions (and so feel like "eureka"), but they are different in content, I suppose.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    I think in a general sense, Ni is awareness of relationships between the essential (internal) properties of objects: it's viewing a coffee cup not as a coffee cup but as white, container, object, small, ceramic, cylindrical, food-related, kitchen-related, house-related, etc., and then whirling these properties around with another object, say an umbrella: small, black, unfolding, can open, plastic handle, etc. And then it's drawing meaning from these comparisons: coffee cup handle is ceramic, umbrella handle is plastic. Ceramic is associated with hard, with earth, but also with polished. Plastic associated with artificial, with man-made, with smooth but not smooth like... not glossy smooth. A flatter sort of smooth. And so on and so forth. It's these "hidden" connections and similarities and dissimilarities, and suddenly it all smooshes together into a larger revelation, and those larger revelations can themselves be spun in the drier until they smack together into an EVEN LARGER revelation, and so on and so forth.
    Hmm, this would also explain why Ni valuers need Se to understand their world. If Ni is just that sort of whirling comparison of "hidden" connections then it needs discrete physical qualities to give it something to analyze, such as what you said about cups or umbrellas or wine openers or anything else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised if Si was more concrete, more focused on images or sounds or other sensations in its imaginations. Though it's a Ni thread, can any Si ego try to describe it?
    Lemme try to think about Si in terms of something that is needed to bind Ne.

    I feel like if I had no conception of Si (meaning just Ne), then my world would just be a series of floating shapes without context or meaning. I kinda feel like Ne valuers see the world as "abstracted from itself," like they pick up on the patterns an object contains, but don't immediately apply those properties to the idea of a specific thing. Say I look at a cup: I can try to tell myself "it is right there, it has these specific physical properties that make it totally unique" etc, but what my brain can only think of it as a series of shapes and patterns I've seen a million times before. I guess in this way, whereas Se valuers instinctively see the physical world as containing an infinite number of different objects with an infinite amount of nuances in terms of shape/color/texture/etc, Ne valuers see the world as a series of discrete repeating patterns where similar shapes and functions of objects are picked up on.

    With this state of mind, something is needed to bind all of these ideas together to make a cohesive whole. This is where Si comes it, as it sort of grounds the concepts that Ne picks up along the way. It gives Ne a physical context in which to exist; and this is where I run into trouble trying to conceptualize Si. I guess the physical contexts are delineated by the natures of time and space. But again, it's really hard to imagine these two ideas as separate, because they have to work in tangent to even be marginally functional.
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azeroffs View Post
    emerging mental imagery.Do you think this is accurate?
    Ni sucks no one cares. You can see what's going to happen and predict peoples behaviour based on their intentions. You try to warn people but you are basically ignored, labelled as paranoid, seen as 'looking for problems' and branded a weirdo as most people can't see what you see. It's basically a useless leading function. I have no idea why I value it.

    PS: In my experience it's not just mental imagery, information can also be auditory or kinestetic depending on your preferred learning style.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IEI View Post
    Ni sucks no one cares. You can see what's going to happen and predict peoples behaviour based on their intentions. You try to warn people but you are basically ignored, labelled as paranoid, seen as 'looking for problems' and branded a weirdo as most people can't see what you see. It's basically a useless leading function. I have no idea why I value it.

    PS: In my experience it's not just mental imagery, information can also be auditory or kinestetic depending on your preferred learning style.
    I have to admit I've had this experience pretty often and initially thought, upon learning a little about Socionics, that Ni is nothing more than this, a really shitty leading information element.

    But gradually, I'm beginning to see that with Ni leading, I am doing more than functioning as a voice in the wilderness; maybe I take Ni for granted and don't see all the ways in which it does give me a lot of strength.

    As for Azeroffs' statements about how Ni acts, I tend to agree that it doesn't have to be image-based, that it can be, as IEI says, "auditory or kinesthetic," a variety of things. When I'm using what I think of as Ni very strongly, without blocking it (which I sometimes do, unfortch), it works very strongly as imagist or auditory.

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    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    Yea it's amazing. I am sometimes able to recreate sounds. Mostly the dream kind, but once in a while it sounds like the real deal. Or am I just going insane? Images though, I can't force, they usually appear subconsciously when I try look into the future/past.

    Ni is not a useless Leading function; it's not meant to help others directly. If you've got something to say, do with it with your Creative/Demonstrative.

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    ... I don't think that you guys should let Socionics decide who you are or what you're good for. I am the way I am because of the choices that I make for myself, which has nothing to do with Ni or whatever.

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