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Thread: Dichotomy: proud/humble

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    ILE - ENTp 1981slater's Avatar
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    Default Dichotomy: proud/humble

    My definition of humble: the person is usually willing to admit he or she is wrong

    My definition of proud: the person is usually unwilling to admit he or she is wrong

    IMO: xxxp = humble, xxxj = proud

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    Correct. Judging means you don't like to change your opinion, perceiving means you don't have a problem with it.

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    when you see the booty Galen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    Correct. Judging means you don't like to change your opinion, perceiving means you don't have a problem with it.
    I don't particularly change my opinions all that much.

    Also I'm willing to admit I'm wrong if I actually believe myself to be wrong.
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    Kinda fails to apply to Pinocchio.


    Also I'm willing to admit I'm wrong if I actually believe myself to be wrong.
    Yeah this... Convince me I'm wrong and I'll gladly step down from the position.

    It's just when people tell me that elementary things that I observe multiple times every day and keep having confirmed to me that I find it safe to present my views in a more definitive way.

    A lot of times there is also a discussion climate where everybody just form opinions randomly. That's when a more reinforced presentation of one's own opinion is called for when that opinion is based on something. All the people who were just faking it will just give up in the face of confrontation.

    other than that, the association is complete bogus.
    Last edited by krieger; 10-22-2010 at 03:13 PM.

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    Nah, sounds iffy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Dichotomy: proud/humble
    Pride is one of the "seven deadly sins" of traditional C'ianity: Seven deadly sins - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. It's extensively described and condemned in the Bible as well.


    One manifestation is described here:
    Is 65v5
    Keep to yourself, do not come near me, For I am holier than you!
    Another one:
    Is 14v13-14
    "I will ascend to heaven;
    I will raise my throne above the stars of God;
    I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly
    ...
    I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
    I will make myself like the Most High."
    The interesting thing is IMO how pride manifests itself with different foci among the types, in terms of attitudes I can imagine it tends to go kind of like this:

    NT: "I'm smarter than you".
    Sp: "I'm better looking than you."
    Sj: "I have higher social status than you."
    NF: "I'm better than you."

    Also, the extended self (basically anything that tends to follow the word "my" in daily communication: my opinions, my religion, my country, my car, etc. ) probably comes into play in deciding how pride is manifested.
    Last edited by ragnar; 10-22-2010 at 04:19 PM. Reason: link
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    I don't have problems admitting I'm wrong.
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    FUCK NO THAT'S WRONG I AM RIGHT!ascvcxvc
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    questionable

    In my case, I can easily swing one way or the other. I consciously make an effort to take the position that I could be wrong. Most of the times I get into heated arguments with others is because I'm fixated on the point that they can't be sure that what they're saying is true even if I might agree with them. Consequently, I'm usually playing devil's advocate.

    I have hard time letting others get away with thinking they're right especially when I see them as overly sure of themself, but I'm pretty quick to admit that I could be wrong even if I think I'm right.


    I'd put myself in the 'humble' category, but I know there are some that would say I'm 'proud.'

    I don't think people usually see that I'm trying to break down their assertions rather than defending my own.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragnar View Post
    Pride is one of the "seven deadly sins" of traditional C'ianity: Seven deadly sins - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. It's extensively described and condemned in the Bible as well.
    I think that ESF/INT are motivated by Greed, ENT/ISF by Gluttony, ENF/IST by Wrath, and EST/INF by Envy...but I could be wrong, there is also lust and sloth for people with too much or too little personality...

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    well I've noticed that with the INFp/ESTp pairing, the INFp usually concedes and admits they're wrong whereas the ESTp rarely does. *shrug*
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    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    That's just called being honest.
    ahhahahaha...
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    I was thinking how that did seem like an ILI thing when I was writing it.
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    NF: "I'm better than you."
    Why are you not more specific here? Are you saying that NF's think they're better than everyone in every way? Maybe "I understand better than you." Or "I know more than you." Only having to do with people and relations rather than ideas and knowledge (like the NT). IME, we NF's have a tendency to think we know and understand more about people than we really do.
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    I'm very willing to admit I'm wrong if it will make the other person happy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Huitzilopochtli View Post
    INF by Envy...
    I consider envy to be an abomination.



    Just throwing my own behaviors out there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pianosinger View Post
    Why are you not more specific here? Are you saying that NF's think they're better than everyone in every way? Maybe "I understand better than you." Or "I know more than you." Only having to do with people and relations rather than ideas and knowledge (like the NT). IME, we NF's have a tendency to think we know and understand more about people than we really do.
    Like, more morally perfect, or more compassionate, or more understanding, I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    Correct. Judging means you don't like to change your opinion, perceiving means you don't have a problem with it.
    I thought about it again. Maybe I was wrong. (Does that make me a "humble" type? Probably not, because I didn't enjoy changing my opinion... )

    While judging certainly means that you don't like to change your decisions, and perceiving means you adapt to the current situation, the dichotomy proud/humble might not exactly mean the same.

    judging/perceiving: like to change decisions (no/yes). When you realize that you were wrong...
    proud/humble: like to change opinions (no/yes). When you are told by another person that you were wrong...

    Quote Originally Posted by socionics.com ENTp
    They hardly ever admit when they are at fault. Even if they apologise formally they usually continue to behave the same as before.
    That seems to be true. So ENTp is a "proud" type?

    proud: Alpha-NTs, Beta-rationals, Gamma-NTs, Delta-rationals
    humble: Alpha-SFs, Beta-irrationals, Gamma-SFs, Delta-irrationals

    proud = democratic*thinking*intuitive OR aristocratic*judging*process
    humble = democratic*feeling*sensing OR aristocratic*perceiving*result



    PROUD: democratic*thinking*intuitive = ENTp, INTj, ENTj, INTp --- those NTs often think they know everything better than anyone else so they don't like to be told they are wrong. Alpha-NTs are probably even more proud than Gammas...

    PROUD: aristocratic*judging*process = ENFj, ISTj ESTj, INFj --- ENFj and ISTj are the most "proud" types, as far as I can judge it. They hardly ever admit that they were wrong. ESTj and INFj are not THAT "proud" I think...

    HUMBLE: democratic*feeling*sensing= ESFj, ISFp, ESFp, ISFj --- those SFs are normally willing to admit they were wrong...

    HUMBLE: aristocratic*perceiving*result = ESTp, INFp, ENFp, ISTp --- INFp and ENFp are probably the most "humble" types. I'm not quite sure about ESTp. I put him into that group because of symmetry...
    Last edited by JohnDo; 11-01-2010 at 09:05 AM.

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    NT: "I'm smarter than you".
    Sp: "I'm better looking than you."
    Sj: "I have higher social status than you."
    NF: "I'm better than you."
    This is very accurate IMO. I tend to think I'm better than others morally speaking, and it's what I'm most self-confident in. I'm also put off by the social status snobbery in the sj the most, and I'm the most protective of sps being shallow with physical beauty. And I'm neutral with the NTs I'm smarter than you-ness.

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    I wouldn't considerate it a legitimate dichotomy. It's emotional attachment that makes people stand by their views so strongly. I'm naturally humble, being the emotionally detached person that I am, but if one of my views are contested I can become a stone wall. If I am found incorrent, however, I am willing to move forward provided that we do not have to dwell on my shortcomings.
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    case example: I asked my co-worker what she was planning on for halloween and her response was her husband is attending a halloween party while she stays at home and takes care of their children. Then she started on like she was sacrificing herself so her husband could enjoy himself. At which point I interrupted by saying: "that's stupid, why not hire a babysitter?" and surprisingly she didn't get angry at me. When I was around her the next day she was actually more talkative and sociable. I was considering I may have been too blunt and needed to apologize but I suppose that was one act of pride seen for what it was - playing the martyr when a compromise is available. So ya the next day she was really humble which was refreshing. Her type is ESE.

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