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Thread: So really, the ONLY benefit to being with your dual

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    Default So really, the ONLY benefit to being with your dual...

    ...is the complete psychological comfort.

    My dual could have a completely different world view than me, in which case we would not be compatible. He could have totally opposite life goals, in which case he would be utterly unsuitable. We could be of different faiths, different political opinions, etc. etc. etc. and all these differences would combine to produce conflict after conflict.

    So really, IMO, duality relationships don't really have any greater chance of long-term success in the real world than any other type relation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pianosinger View Post
    ...is the complete psychological comfort.

    My dual could have a completely different world view than me, in which case we would not be compatible. He could have totally opposite life goals, in which case he would be utterly unsuitable. We could be of different faiths, different political opinions, etc. etc. etc. and all these differences would combine to produce conflict after conflict.

    So really, IMO, duality relationships don't really have any greater chance of long-term success in the real world than any other type relation.
    well the other angle you can look at is, what's most important in a relationship--is it being the same in all these ways? Or is it having that psychological proximity?

    I feel like no two people are really alike, and if they are, wouldn't that be boring? When the two people are from different walks of life (as duals tend to be, I think), this psychological proximity is what makes it easier to bridge those differences and find each other fascinating.

    That said, any of the other positive relations are just as good I think (at least within the quadra), but in a different way. Duality has its feel, activity has its feel, identity has its feel. Each one can be good and I think i'd be ok with any of those relationships.

    Well, maybe... I'll comment more on identity after my date this sunday with a guy i think is ENFp
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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    Well, maybe... I'll comment more on identity after my date this sunday with a guy i think is ENFp
    Haha, tag team! Make sure to post and I'll chip in too, maybe, except it's just lunch in my case.

    EDIT

    Though I'm basically not exactly optimistic for the long-term prospects of any Identity relationship. I hear there's just a lack of cohesion, even if things don't go badly, per se.

    Having just come out of a painfully semi-platonic Dual relationship, I'm painfully aware that no other intertype is likely to replicate the really intense gravity and great chemistry that I understand is characteristic of Duality. (I don't count infatuation, since that is not an intertype )
    Last edited by male; 10-20-2010 at 04:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    I'll comment more on identity after my date this sunday with a guy i think is ENFp
    Sounds fun!
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    Quote Originally Posted by pianosinger View Post
    ...is the complete psychological comfort.
    Yes, but I think you're downplaying the importance of that.

    Two people can be completely the same in all the right ways (beliefs, goals, etc), but if they aren't able to click in the way duality is supposed to then it's not going to be as good as it would seem it should.

    On the flip side, if duals are different in many ways and the people haven't become closed to other ways of doing/seeing things, then the relationship can prove to be enlightening in more than just socionic-related ways.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pianosinger View Post
    ...is the complete psychological comfort.

    My dual could have a completely different world view than me, in which case we would not be compatible. He could have totally opposite life goals, in which case he would be utterly unsuitable. We could be of different faiths, different political opinions, etc. etc. etc. and all these differences would combine to produce conflict after conflict.

    So really, IMO, duality relationships don't really have any greater chance of long-term success in the real world than any other type relation.
    awww, Ti-PoLR

    So... are you really saying relationships which are less psychologically comfortable - or, in fact, quite uncomfortable, regardless of how much partners have in common - have no less chance of long term success in the real world than those of greater, even complete, psychological comfort?

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    Possibly related:

    Advocating your issue to a conflictor in a way your superego would, definitely helps.

    If this bothers you, remember that issue is still yours, you're not giving up on it entirely, it's just advocated differently(and more efficiently).
    Last edited by Trevor; 10-21-2010 at 11:38 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    awww, Ti-PoLR

    So... are you really saying relationships which are less psychologically comfortable - or, in fact, quite uncomfortable, regardless of how much partners have in common - have no less chance of long term success in the real world than those of greater, even complete, psychological comfort?
    Granted, all other things being similar, I'm sure I would have a better chance with my dual than with some other type. But, in a real world scenario, people are just cheating themselves if they refuse to ever date or marry anyone other than their duals who are also their social, intellectual, spiritual, what-have-you equals. What are the chances of finding a perfect match like that? I am convinced that if we were all intended to go through life with a compatible dual by our sides, the Powers That Be would have made it whole lot easier for us to do so.
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    Well, there are socionics factors that explain why duality doesn't happen all the time. The relationship requires a good deal of activation energy, or, more accurately, the relationship is a force, like the strong nuclear force, that works much better over short distances:

    (D1n)(D2n)/r3n,

    Where D = Duality attraction (of the first and second party), and r is metaphorical distance (metaphorical distance could perhaps represent "distance" in social class, culture, religious and financial situation, moral situation, illness or health (mentally, physically, and spiritually), etc. But its also the aggregate importance of all those factors, which is a lot less static than the factors themselves, a lot more suceptible to being reduced by duality metaphorically "pulling" the two parties closer together (i.e., reducing the importance of the distancing factors).

    Where D >> r, the attraction is instantaneous and extremely strong.
    When D << r, there is no attraction ("duals tend to ignore each other")


    That was a pretty flare-up of my Ti-HA. Maybe it's because I'm in the mood to attract some beta friends, so I'm naturally showing off my Ti. Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps.


    Anyway, the point of all that is, socionics does have a way to account for the fact that duality doesn't happen as often as one might expect, given the extreme proposed benefits of the arrangement.

    And certainly intellectual and spiritual compatibility are important. Morally speaking, I should marry a Christian LII rather than a atheist SLE (but I'd almost certainly like the atheist SLE better). But duality is bizarrely comforting, and also bizarrely addicting. So some social and spiritual and intellectual stuff can be sacrificed. Like in Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. Socially, Jim Carey and Kate Winslet are very different. And intellectually, Jim Carey even makes a point of saying that he was occasionally intellectually/socially embarrassed by her. But their relationship was still more than worth it, especially in a romantic relationship which has this inherent aspect of privacy, of a private world; duality is very good with helping two people work on themselves with each other, if that makes sense, and so in a romantic relationship, where the whole point is to spend a lot of time alone together, duality can really have a powerful effect, and there are natural points of connection, because the world of the dual, no matter how different, is nonetheless interesting, generally. I mean, I still don't care at all about my SLE friends' sports pursuits. But I totally care about their intellectual pursuits, and vice versa. And if they really like something (like really, take to their souls like), I generally can find something very interesting in it as well.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    Well, there are socionics factors that explain why duality doesn't happen all the time. The relationship requires a good deal of activation energy, or, more accurately, the relationship is a force, like the strong nuclear force, that works much better over short distances:

    (D1n)(D2n)/r3n,

    Where D = Duality attraction (of the first and second party), and r is metaphorical distance (metaphorical distance could perhaps represent "distance" in social class, culture, religious and financial situation, moral situation, illness or health (mentally, physically, and spiritually), etc. But its also the aggregate importance of all those factors, which is a lot less static than the factors themselves, a lot more suceptible to being reduced by duality metaphorically "pulling" the two parties closer together (i.e., reducing the importance of the distancing factors).

    Where D >> r, the attraction is instantaneous and extremely strong.
    When D << r, there is no attraction ("duals tend to ignore each other")
    I feel like I've been following you around lately, saying "Very well said, silverchris," but that's just because you keep writing awesome things.

    But yeah, this is definitely the biggest problem with Dual relationships; they require a close psychological distance to "kick in", and since Duals are frequently very different in their public lives forming that initial connection can be extremely difficult. I think statistically only 30% or so of people wind up in Dual relationships. Less than half, anyway.

    However, once that close psychological distance has been achieved, Duality is the relationship in which external differences and problems like those described in the OP are most easily resolved. You start to look at the world in a different way, and begin to realize that some of the things you used to think were so important, are not really. Disagreements and even arguments do happen, but once they're resolved, they usually stay resolved.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pianosinger View Post
    ...is the complete psychological comfort.
    That's a pretty nice benefit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pianosinger View Post
    ...is the complete psychological comfort.

    My dual could have a completely different world view than me, in which case we would not be compatible. He could have totally opposite life goals, in which case he would be utterly unsuitable. We could be of different faiths, different political opinions, etc. etc. etc. and all these differences would combine to produce conflict after conflict.

    So really, IMO, duality relationships don't really have any greater chance of long-term success in the real world than any other type relation.
    The benefit of psychological comfort has a greater impact than the downsides you mention. Would it really matter that much if you had different faiths or political opinions if you were psychologically comfortable?

    I'm not saying dual relationships are guaranteed to work but I think the success rate and level of satisfaction is greatest in dual type relationships.
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    Quote Originally Posted by pianosinger View Post
    ...is the complete psychological comfort.

    My dual could have a completely different world view than me, in which case we would not be compatible. He could have totally opposite life goals, in which case he would be utterly unsuitable. We could be of different faiths, different political opinions, etc. etc. etc. and all these differences would combine to produce conflict after conflict.

    So really, IMO, duality relationships don't really have any greater chance of long-term success in the real world than any other type relation.
    Not just psychological comfort but your duals are sooooo much fun, they are spontaneous and unplanned (two things LSE are!!!) so they get up and go and gather fun experiences; so many of your duals are into theater and make great actors, managers, and I'm sure most are intelligent enough to engage in the kind of conversations that you value. There's a lot to duality, not just comfort; people live and do things, the difference is that with your dual, you won't be fighting as you're doing them and you'll have fun. I've found that with my dual, because I have weak Se and am unable to memorize lots of info in detail, I can't share stories and matters of factual information, but I've explained that to my dual cousin and I think she feels knowing that she'll be doing most of the talking LOLOLOL But, she loves it when I help take the edge off of the things she doesn't like dealing with, like business interactions involving people and getting the quality of items from them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pianosinger View Post
    ...is the complete psychological comfort.

    My dual could have a completely different world view than me, in which case we would not be compatible. He could have totally opposite life goals, in which case he would be utterly unsuitable. We could be of different faiths, different political opinions, etc. etc. etc. and all these differences would combine to produce conflict after conflict.

    So really, IMO, duality relationships don't really have any greater chance of long-term success in the real world than any other type relation.
    you'll know how duality works when you've experienced it.

    speculating like this leads to nowhere.

    I can promise you that duality would at least be eye opening to you, and at most a total revelation.

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    You nerds are spending too much time analyzing/thinking about your life instead of actually living it. Not that I'm one to talk, but I know from experience, a little bit of action goes a long way. Aaand you'll see that socionics is based primarily on reality. Not on your stupid middle class bland theories and ideals. It's based on who you like and get along with in real life, not 'who you think you'll get along with' in that neurotic little head of yours.

    The problem with living life is you do risk pain, you risk people making fun of you, treating you like shit- in order to find your true love. People in glass houses shouldn't throw so much stones, yo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    The problem with living life is you do risk pain, you risk people making fun of you, treating you like shit- in order to find your true love. People in glass houses shouldn't throw so much stones, yo.
    I'd say all those things are actually symptoms of not living life just as you are.

    It's an undertaking that requires the wisdom to apprehend the merit of such an existence, the courage to resist the crabs in the bucket who would pull you down out of spite and envy, and the pride to mediate between your own path as an individual and the need to negotiate with greater society.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azeroffs View Post
    Yes, but I think you're downplaying the importance of that.

    Two people can be completely the same in all the right ways (beliefs, goals, etc), but if they aren't able to click in the way duality is supposed to then it's not going to be as good as it would seem it should.

    On the flip side, if duals are different in many ways and the people haven't become closed to other ways of doing/seeing things, then the relationship can prove to be enlightening in more than just socionic-related ways.
    This. I married my conflictor--we had almost exactly the same beliefs, same values, same worldviews. But the reasoning behind that was totally different for each of us, we expressed ourselves differently, and even if we could agree on our goals, we could not achieve them together because despite our monumental efforts and good intentions, nothing lined up properly.

    And ... I am a little embarrassed to say this, but apparently I have met a dual and have begun "dualizing." It's early stages; maybe nothing will come of it. But anyway, yes, some of our views differ, and some (but not all!) of our strengths/weaknesses are opposite ... in some ways we contrast starkly. But we share more in common than I would have thought; it has taken several months to realize that, in part because both of us have been cagey, not exposing things to the other that we anticipated, based on earlier relationships, would be found undesirable. Our early communication was somewhat like a sparring match.

    Then something shifted, and I began to trust him and enjoy him in a really profound way. Now, the truth is, although I met him before I knew about Socionics, I'm not certain I would have stuck with this long enough to discover what might be possible between us if it were not for Socionics. The beginning was not so promising. And if we pursue the relationship, it will not be entirely easy.

    We have the same sense of humor, we value each other's actual good and bad points, we want to live our lives in the same way. Where we do differ, somehow I find that enlightening, exciting, fascinating--it doesn't seem to create an impasse. I don't think I'm explaining this very well, grrr.

    The value of being truly understood by another person is inestimable.To be able to offer that understanding in return makes me feel amazingly strong. And I didn't realize what it meant to BE understood, because it's certainly much more than beliefs or ideas.

    Compared to what I have had--relationships in which the accord was more on the surface than deep--this kind of dynamic is much more what I would like love and partnership to be. The beauty of difference in an atmosphere of comfort and trust. Sounds corny and silly, but now that I have a taste of it, I want more. And the best part is, he doesn't bore me!!!!!!!

    So wish me luck, because in fact, I'm sort of terrified. :\

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    So wish me luck, because in fact, I'm sort of terrified. :\
    I'll say good luck, or should I focus on the last part too, and say..be afraid....be very afraid

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    So, REALLY the ONLY benefit of breathing is that it keeps you alive! Jesus! Why don't we just stop now!
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    So, REALLY the ONLY benefit of breathing is that it keeps you alive! Jesus! Why don't we just stop now!
    Out of the 15 individuals who contributed to this thread, I bet only myself and likely at most two others know how to breathe properly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    So, REALLY the ONLY benefit of breathing is that it keeps you alive! Jesus! Why don't we just stop now!
    LOL exactly!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by pianosinger View Post
    ...is the complete psychological comfort.
    Yes, this is one of two correct conclusions.

    Quote Originally Posted by pianosinger View Post
    ...is the complete psychological comfort.

    My dual could have a completely different world view than me, in which case we would not be compatible.
    Incorrect. You are not incompatible just because you have a different world view. Quite often you can understand your dual's viewpoint. You find what they say interesting, easy to digest.

    Quote Originally Posted by pianosinger View Post
    He could have totally opposite life goals, in which case he would be utterly unsuitable.
    This is your 2nd correct conclusion. Although duals can have vastly different viewpoints yet understand each other, the relationship will only work if you have the same GOALS. Moving in the same direction.

    Quote Originally Posted by pianosinger View Post
    We could be of different faiths, different political opinions, etc. etc. etc. and all these differences would combine to produce conflict after conflict.
    Incorrect. Again, with your dual, it is easiest to appreciate differences, you find their different viewpoints very interesting. BUT. The things you mentioned, faith, political opinions, can be tied into creating GOALS. Which would possibly cause problems. It depends on what you expect from your relationship. Are you looking for someone to 'complete' you, psychological comfort, or for someone to work with through life?

    For example, suppose you have different religions with your dual love partner. So? Just having that difference doesn't produce conflict, you can respect your dual. BUT! Let's say it's tied to the goal of raising kids someday in a specific religion. And duals can't come to the same GOAL, disagreeing on whose religion is better for their kids.

    Your example of different political views... again, so? No problem! Unless it's tied to a certain GOAL. Are you spending much time and energy campaigning for a politician? Are your political views that important to you?

    The questions you raise are a huge reason why it's said that YOUNG duals are more likely to build a successful relationship. Before your different world views, religions, political views, translate into GOALS that you start working on. Once you get well into your 20's, 30's, it's tough to drop everything that you've already worked towards, in order to build a relationship with someone. But still possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by pianosinger View Post
    So really, IMO, duality relationships don't really have any greater chance of long-term success in the real world than any other type relation.
    Incorrect. They do have a much greater chance of success than other relationships, despite all the differences. But, if you're assuming they have different GOALS, maybe we're talking like 11% to another type's 5%, something like that. Very small. Having the same GOALS is most important; and that's why sometimes it's best to have a relationship with someone who's working towards the same things as you, even if it doesn't provide the best psychological comfort.

    Realistically, not everyone wants a single, life-long, rewarding marriage. Some people are ok with divorce, after having a family with someone and raising kids. I know an LSE friend who can't stand the idea of staying with one person forever. So realistically, what are your values? If you personally don't value the psychological comfort as much as others, then don't let it be the decision-breaking factor! If that's the case, then you're right, there's nothing extra special about a dual relationship, if it means you have different GOALS! You'll likely still break apart, and the relationship will still likely fail.

    But that's not to say dual relationships don't still give you the best chances. Realistically though, if you're getting older, and are running out of time to find a lover and build a family together, there's nothing wrong with marrying someone who doesn't complement you perfectly. Just as long as it's not a Conflictor/Contrary. J/k, even those marriages can work out just fine if you have the same goals.

    And if you still value that dual interaction, you can always get it from friends anyway. Or from people on your favorite internet forum.

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    I think it has more to do with having things in common, like things to talk about and common values...also, there is someone out there who understands you and is interested in your opinions, stimulating you to activities that you might enjoy; if you consider the concept of Maieutics (Maieutics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), your dual allows you to contribute to and benefit from the ideas that suit you most, which helps you grow and gives you more options and advantages; spending a whole day with your conflictor fighting about everything or doing things that you don't really enjoy at all is essentially wasted time () and wasted experience ()...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Dew View Post
    Incorrect. They do have a much greater chance of success than other relationships, despite all the differences. But, if you're assuming they have different GOALS, maybe we're talking like 11% to another type's 5%, something like that. Very small. Having the same GOALS is most important; and that's why sometimes it's best to have a relationship with someone who's working towards the same things as you, even if it doesn't provide the best psychological comfort.
    I liked the suggestion of just finding Dual friends.

    Regarding the goals issue, I have been discovering to my surprise that the SLE I'm getting to know is pretty willing to understand my goals and support them, apparently to make my goals for myself something he intends to align himself with. And likewise, I feel that understanding and supporting his goals would be very possible and very gratifying. We are not especially young, but it still seems surprisingly doable.

    Compare this to being married to a Conflictor. He didn't inquire about my goals--he couldn't perceive my needs. I could tell him flat-out exactly what I needed, but it was impossible for me to ever get those things. (I think it's fair to say that didn't go entirely both ways, as I was often pressed into service in supporting his goals, which were well known to me.) I think the recently posted Reinin book's description of the Conflictor relation said that because of the way the partners' functions misalign, one person basically gets what he/she needs at the expense of the other, and vice versa.

    So I think it may be that the hypothetical goal conflict between Duals may not be such a large problem. I can see how it would be an obstacle in some very specific situations, of course.

    To me, the bigger issue as a person not previously dualized is that the early stage of the relationship may seem rocky--not worth pursuing. And to me, being in my 30s and seeking new relationships of a different kind means changing my expectations of what partners can and can't do for each other, how they will/won't hurt each other, and whether it's okay to actually trust a man for the first time in years.

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    Personally I think that having the same values and/or worldviews as a partner gives a psychological comfort.

    THe number one thing that couples fight about all the time is money. My wife and I have never fought about money because we both strongly believe in living within our means. Some friends of ours fight and stress about money a whole lot more, but they're also a lot more spendy. Much bigger house, both drive fancy cars, and literally living paycheck to paycheck. They just leased a new luxury car at $800/mo despite the fact that they constantly stress about money. WTF? My wife and I both drive Toyotas. One a 2002 that's been paid off for ages, and a 2007 that'll be paid off by the end of the year.

    Both of us strongly believe in education and we both wanted to pursue advanced degrees in our field and didn't want to interfere with either of our careers. So we never allowed our relationship to short circuit any of those goals, even though we made great sacrifices in order to make it happen. We both took the long view and we're better off for it today.

    We're both similar politically, so there's never any fights or conflict about that. We both wanted at least two kids so agreement from the onset on having a family. We both wanted careers so there was never an expectation for one or the other to stay home with the kids. We like going places and doing things together including travel. There's physical attraction and chemistry. I think she's hot and she thinks I'm hot. She doesn't think she's hot and I don't think I'm hot, but that doesn't matter - we both think the other is hot.

    Guess what?

    I haven't even really started talking about Socionics or typology yet.

    We're not duals. Activity. Psychologically, there's all the awkwardness of J and P being slightly out of sync that's described in Activity type relationships and J and P types in general. I think being in the same Quadra and in general valuing the same things helps a lot. All of the above plus just being in the same Quadra I think matters a lot more than having a Duality specifically.

    Look at my parents. An SEI and an LIE - Conflictors. But everything else lines up and they've made it work all these years. Obviously there's a lot more psychological awkwardness but it's not like you can't learn to appreciate people's differences. Who says everything HAS to be in perfect sync and harmony all the time?
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    Steve, the first half of your post was good.

    That said, where I think you're missing the mark is not saying anything abut Duality. Sure, couples of other intertypes can "make things work", as you say, but what is the overall quality of the relationship?

    Put it another way, there's probably a good reason why everyone, for the most part, on these forums who has experienced Duality has only good things to say about it I'm not trying to undermine your post or anything, and I'm happy for you that things are so happy for you with your wife, but I just wanted to add to what you were saying.

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    six turnin', four burnin' stevENTj's Avatar
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    The problem is that the aspects of human relationships are far broader than that, duality or not. Some make it seem as if so long as you have a duality type relationship then everything else will miraculously work out no matter how big the differences. I don't think that's realistic at all. If you can have 'all of the above' and duality that's undoubtedly exceptional and the very best you could ever hope to have.
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    six turnin', four burnin' stevENTj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Dew View Post
    Yes

    Incorrect.

    This is your 2nd correct conclusion.

    Incorrect.

    Incorrect.


    We're discussing theory and opinions, not cold hard proven and established facts like in the hard sciences, so I'm not sure what the point of all of the thumbs up and thumbs down and labeling something correct or incorrect is. Nothing being discussed is as clear cut as saying 1+1=2 and labeling that "correct" or saying that it's 3 and calling it incorrect. There's plenty of room for discussion either way here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevENTj View Post
    The problem is that the aspects of human relationships are far broader than that, duality or not. Some make it seem as if so long as you have a duality type relationship then everything else will miraculously work out no matter how big the differences. I don't think that's realistic at all. If you can have 'all of the above' and duality that's undoubtedly exceptional and the very best you could ever hope to have.
    Bolded is absolutely spot on. Duality is not a panacea, it's just the best possible context for an already good-quality relationship.

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    I think also we should also see duality in contexts other than a romantic relationship. Duals can be platonic friends, bosses, coworkers, or even just acquaintances. Regardless of which of these a duality manifests itself in, I think one particular quality of duality is each dual having a profound influence on the other. Even in such things as re-examining ones life choices, or seeing a "role model", etc.
    Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx

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    Quote Originally Posted by stevENTj View Post
    We're discussing theory and opinions, not cold hard proven and established facts like in the hard sciences
    Correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by stevENTj View Post
    so I'm not sure what the point of all of the thumbs up and thumbs down
    To annoy people like you, of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by stevENTj View Post
    labeling something correct or incorrect
    Because some stuff IS either correct or incorrect? Hmm, is all labeling bad to you, even if it's true?

    Quote Originally Posted by stevENTj View Post
    Nothing being discussed is as clear cut as saying 1+1=2 and labeling that "correct" or saying that it's 3 and calling it incorrect.
    Really, "nothing" discussed here is clear cut? How about all the following incorrect conclusions drawn by the OP:

    Quote Originally Posted by pianosinger View Post
    My dual could have a completely different world view than me, in which case we would not be compatible.
    Quote Originally Posted by pianosinger View Post
    He could have totally opposite life goals, in which case he would be utterly unsuitable.
    Quote Originally Posted by pianosinger View Post
    We could be of different faiths, different political opinions, etc. etc. etc. and all these differences would combine to produce conflict after conflict.
    These are clearly incorrect conclusions drawn from speculation. "Would" implies 100%. It would be better to use "might".

    1. If you have different world views, you MIGHT not be compatible.
    2. If you have totally opposite life goals, you MIGHT be utterly unsuitable, if you are unable to agree to the same goals. Golden's post is an example where duals with opposite life goals found agreeing "surprisingly doable".
    3. Lastly, if you're of different faiths, political opinions, you MIGHT have conflict after conflict, or you MIGHT actually be able to agree on many things, despite your differences. Aren't some Lutherans friends with Catholics? Aren't some Democrats friends with Republicans? It IS clear cut incorrect to say that being of a different faith or political opinion than your partner WOULD produce conflict after conflict.


    Quote Originally Posted by pianosinger View Post
    So really, IMO, duality relationships don't really have any greater chance of long-term success in the real world than any other type relation.
    An opinion, neither correct nor incorrect. Which is what we're all discussing here. But, it is an opinion based on very incorrect conclusions. And the vast majority of responses seem to favor duality being able to overcome differences better than other relationship types. But again, those are people's opinions as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by stevENTj View Post
    There's plenty of room for discussion either way here.
    Correct.

    Sorry if I offended you somehow SteveENTj. I've been said to see the world as black and white, and I get equally offended that you don't see what the OP said as incorrect. I hope I explained myself enough, that the conclusions the OP drew were, in fact, incorrect. Would implies 100%, and what pianosinger said isn't 100% the case. And I explained in my other post my opinion of how duality could or could not work around these differences.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stevENTj View Post


    We're discussing theory and opinions, not cold hard proven and established facts like in the hard sciences, so I'm not sure what the point of all of the thumbs up and thumbs down and labeling something correct or incorrect is. Nothing being discussed is as clear cut as saying 1+1=2 and labeling that "correct" or saying that it's 3 and calling it incorrect. There's plenty of room for discussion either way here.
    Te-leading + Ni-polr = that. But EIIs seem to like it, so more power to you, I guess.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Dew View Post
    Sorry if I offended you somehow SteveENTj. I've been said to see the world as black and white, and I get equally offended that you don't see what the OP said as incorrect. I hope I explained myself enough, that the conclusions the OP drew were, in fact, incorrect. Would implies 100%, and what pianosinger said isn't 100% the case. And I explained in my other post my opinion of how duality could or could not work around these differences.
    We're not just talking about a small list of things like differences in political views or religion. The OP did add "etc. etc. etc" to their list meaning that the list of differences could go on ad infinitum. You really think that Duality is absolutely strong enough to conquer ALL of that to the point that you can say with such confidence that the OP is absolutely incorrect in their opinion that a long-term relationship with such a person wouldn't be doable?

    Can duality really solve issues like:

    • money: big spender vs someone that's super thrifty
    • family: one absolutely wanting kids vs the other not wanting any at all, hardline stances on both ends.
    • Geographic issues - being apart and both absolutely not willing to move because of other roots in the area (proximity to family, friends, etc)
    • career: deadbeat vs over-achiever
    • bedroom/libido issues
    • one being super active and always wanting to go out and do things vs the other being a homebody
    • smoking vs non-smoking. I know people that have divorced just over that. (Ashton mentioned drug use as another reason)
    • kids and how to raise and discipline them, parenting issues in general
    • splitting up the workload around the house, chores, etc.
    • preference for food (yeah really)

    If I was super bored I could go on and on all night long about things people could potentially fight about that can be pretty big and has nothing to do with duality/socionics/typology.

    I'm more inclined to agree with the OP in that there really isn't gonna be a chance for things to work out even if they are a duality, and less inclined to agree with you who's saying that's "incorrect". Maybe there's a chance in hell, but in reality per the OP's definition of the list going on and on and on ad infinitum no I really don't think there's any chance.

    I do believe that a CONFLICTOR couple where literally everything else lines up and is a perfect match have a better chance at a happy long-term relationship than a duality couple where absolutely everything else is in conflict. And that comes down to my belief that Socionics and psychological 'mating' of the minds so to speak is but one part of human relationships and hardly a majority stake by any means.

    You see black and white, but I see a million shades of gray.
    Last edited by stevENTj; 10-23-2010 at 03:27 AM.
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    six turnin', four burnin' stevENTj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    I think also we should also see duality in contexts other than a romantic relationship. Duals can be platonic friends, bosses, coworkers, or even just acquaintances. Regardless of which of these a duality manifests itself in, I think one particular quality of duality is each dual having a profound influence on the other. Even in such things as re-examining ones life choices, or seeing a "role model", etc.
    Yes that's very true on the different roles for relationships.

    For myself, I actually think an SEE duality for me would probably be better in the stereotypical context of an ILI "Analyst" advising an SEE "Politician" on current political trends as a business/client type relationship than I can as a romantic one. The few SEEs I know are quite active, and always going places and doing things which might end up burning me out. In fact my wife seemed to be in a very SEE-like mode this summer wanting to go a zillion places. I seriously burned out. Don't know if I could keep up with an SEE in a romantic relationship, at least based on the SEEs I know.
    Te-INTp/ILI, my wife: Fi-ISFj/ESI, with laser beam death rays for ESTp/SLEs, lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevENTj View Post
    We're not just talking about a small list of things like differences in political views or religion. The OP did add "etc. etc. etc" to their list meaning that the list of differences could go on ad infinitum. You really think that Duality is absolutely strong enough to conquer ALL of that to the point that you can say with such confidence that the OP is absolutely incorrect in their opinion that a long-term relationship with such a person wouldn't be doable?
    No, we're actually in agreement. Can't believe you bothered typing all that. You must not have read my post from earlier:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Dew View Post
    Having the same GOALS is most important; and that's why sometimes it's best to have a relationship with someone who's working towards the same things as you, even if it doesn't provide the best psychological comfort.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stevENTj View Post
    I do believe that a CONFLICTOR couple where literally everything else lines up and is a perfect match have a better chance at a happy long-term relationship than a duality couple where absolutely everything else is in conflict. And that comes down to my belief that Socionics and psychological 'mating' of the minds so to speak is but one part of human relationships and hardly a majority stake by any means.
    But that's a pretty...bad comparison for a psychological experiment. External factors have to be neutralized, somehow. Something more plausible would be like: given four people forming a quadra that have neither everything in common, nor everything completely conflicting (which, I guess, is the most likely occurrence between random intraquadra pairings), then the couples with the highest chances of: 1)being formed 2)long-term success ; are the dual pairings.

    Study: ? ?????????? ????????? ? ??????????? ????? 45 % of couples are duals, 71% when you only analyze intra-quadra relationships. Matches my real-life observations - somewhat shockingly, even most "young" couples seem to be either duals or, in certain peculiar cases, activity.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Study: ? ?????????? ????????? ? ??????????? ????? 45 % of couples are duals, 71% when you only analyze intra-quadra relationships. Matches my real-life observations - somewhat shockingly, even most "young" couples seem to be either duals or, in certain peculiar cases, activity.
    Really? I find this interesting. Though, I can't read the Russian. So, some questions: Are all these couples confirmed? I mean, what if some of the typings are wrong? What ages were the couples in the study? How long had they been married? Because it would seem to me that, the longer a couple is together, the more they would naturally "dualize" themselves, so that as they got older they might test as a different type than what they really are...?
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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevENTj View Post
    I do believe that a CONFLICTOR couple where literally everything else lines up and is a perfect match have a better chance at a happy long-term relationship than a duality couple where absolutely everything else is in conflict.
    Could a Conflicting couple have a chance at a long-term relationship? Possibly, under extremely unusual external circumstances. But a happy long-term relationship? Very, very unlikely. There could certainly be occasional moments of happiness, but the relationship would be characterized by high levels of tension and unease. The circumstances required to keep a Conflicting couple together would have to be extremely strong, and almost never occur in practice.

    In my opinion external circumstances matter less than is commonly believed. People argue about money, family, smoking, etc., but those are generally just surface issues, catalysts that bring deeper psychological incompatibilities to light. Relationships don't end because the couple can't agree on what to eat for dinner. Relationships end because incompatible types have a very hard time resolving even minor disagreements like what to eat for dinner.

    Certainly there are cases where external circumstances can end even a Dual relationship, particularly in the early stages. Geographic issues are a big one. But once a close psychological distance has been established, most relational issues between psychologically healthy Duals can be overcome with relatively minimal effort. It's not that Duality somehow makes everything else "miraculously" work out. It's that the ease of communication in Duality relationships makes it very easy to reach mutually acceptable solutions.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pianosinger View Post
    Really? I find this interesting. Though, I can't read the Russian. So, some questions: Are all these couples confirmed? I mean, what if some of the typings are wrong? What ages were the couples in the study? How long had they been married? Because it would seem to me that, the longer a couple is together, the more they would naturally "dualize" themselves, so that as they got older they might test as a different type than what they really are...?
    You can use a google translator, or eventually google chrome can translate it automatically. Of course, you can argue that their typings are wrong. In that case, though, you'll never end up with a solution.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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