Se

[Creepy-z987654321]

...

[Beautiful sky]

"The knowing from social interaction, with an individual or a group, what they are feeling or thinking from the observation of their behavior, speech patterns, body language, facial expressions, and vocal expressions." Actress, Karla Guy, Sociotyp SEE, Sunday, October 17, 2010 1:57pm
Karla Guy - Home

[Airman]

I see Se has a good description at wikisocion.org - unlike other elements.

Se is willpower, strength, will, also the apprehension of qualia - objects.

Saying that for example an analysis of something can be done with Se is in my view incorrect because it requires some T element to function - this is why Se is always paired with Ti in the Beta Quadra. I disagree that an idea or a concept is something discussed using Se. Se is a drive, it can provide a lot of energy to the discussion itself but a mental element is necessary whenever dealing with mental objects - this is pure logic.

So in my view Se has to do with the 5 sense-perceptions. Although it could be argued that for example in Buddhism , Thinking is considered to be one of the senses - so you count 6 senses in Buddhism which is a very complex system and proves to be very coherent. So in a Buddhist sense you could affirm that Sensing can be used to evaluate mental objects - but even then, it would have to be Si, because mental objects are internal not external. Just my 2 cents here.

[ashlesha]

ananke, i like it when you talk about Se.

[silverchris9]

Let's see... If you want to look at Se, look at how SEEs and SLEs talk. What are their similarities? I'd say stark reality, but not only in the form of physical objects. It can be anything from death, to friendship, to emotional reaction, to religion, to .... you name it. And they all form different conclusions based on who they are (not how they think). It is the starkness of their impressions that is common. This starkness comes from an almost physical impact that what they experience have on them. All because of isolating concepts and happenings and what not in static images. Frozen pictures of reality that then can be analyzed, as you said, through Fi or Ti.

Yeah. Even with religion, SXEs are very absolute (SLEs even more so, having two objective/external functions in their ego), and focused on reality. If an SLE is an atheist, he or she is an atheist because he or she believes that it is a part of reality that God does not exist (which is sort of a tortured statement, but you get the idea). Similarly, for a moral code, the SLE will not emphasize this abstract should out there somewhere, but simply that it is a part of reality that you should not kill people. It's this focus on realism, on treating things as discrete, real objects even when they are abstract concepts, that produces the decisiveness of SXEs. Contrast this with Ni, which insists upon treating anything and everything relative to have it connects to other things, its associations, moving it forward and backward along sliders, i.e., from table to lumber to tree, or from table to desk to chair to footstool (that scale was based on size, roughly), thinking about the zillions of associations an object could have, and shifting the ones that are emphasized at any given moment (this is the Ni perspective shift or gestalt shift). This of course, also happens unconsciously (although you can tease some of it into consciousness if you work hard enough). So yeah.

[Airman]

Se isolates happenings in images. Se-egos quickly recognize anything familiar. Something someone says. The way someone is standing. The way people use their voice. The way things are arranged in the same way. Or a different way.

I agree with you here. But notice that most of these familiar things you say are OUTSIDE and OBSERVABLE, i.e., they are apprehended through one of the 5 senses. Let´s say for example a smell. Someone with strong Se smells a fragrance and no one except him is able to remember what flower or perfume or food is causing that fragrance - or he´s the first to quickly remember it. It´s then Se being used primarily, but supported by some Thinking element - Ti or Te - which makes this person be able to recognize the smell and verbalize the name of it.

This makes Se-egos very good at reading situations and people, and yes, it happens fast, as a pattern recognizer, so it's not very conscious. A million impulses every second. When you have control of your surroundings like that, it is easy to be confident and move on. That's where the willpower and confidence parts of SXE descriptions come from. It's about their understanding of the here and now.

I agree with you again and it´s an interesting view that their confidence comes from their ability to recognize in the here and now. But I think it also comes from their ability of sheer strength, ability to MOBILIZE OBJECTS in the here and now. I have a very close ESFP friend who, when a little drunk, is going to move objects around himself very fast, even people, like for example grabbing some friend to joke and slightly pushing the friend, or grabbing someone´s arm and carrying the person by force to wherever he feels they should go to. A kind of 'primitivism', or raw use of physical force, makes them able to move objects and people easily and so it reinforces their confidence: I have control of my environment, in the most literal and physical sense. I can push someone away easily and quickly, punch someone to defend myself with dextery, etc.

I agree. Se doesn't analyze in a step-by-step fashion, that's not what I meant.

Let's see... If you want to look at Se, look at how SEEs and SLEs talk. What are their similarities? I'd say stark reality, but not only in the form of physical objects. It can be anything from death, to friendship, to emotional reaction, to religion, to .... you name it. And they all form different conclusions based on who they are (not how they think). It is the starkness of their impressions that is common. This starkness comes from an almost physical impact that what they experience have on them. All because of isolating concepts and happenings and what not in static images. Frozen pictures of reality that then can be analyzed, as you said, through Fi or Ti.

I know what you say because lately I´ve been in a very stressful situation in a rehab clinic for alcohol that I ended up getting so pissed off and then 'resorting' - unconsciously - to my demonstrative Se and climbing a 3m wall and jumping to the other side of it, on the street, running like a rabbit to escape. I see that the way I looked at how I would climb it and how I did it was so fast and secure that I had no problem at all doing it. So I can agree that Se takes shots while Si is more of a movie - which is many single small pictures put together. Se observes things in general even a situation as one single happening. It freezes them. In this way it can better grasp and control it - because you cannot control pictures in a movie, they´re moving too fast, so you have to adapt and go with the flow like Si egos do, but you can control a single snapshot and evaluate it using some T element once you've captured it. This is the basic principle I see. And it works.

I think all functions are "mental" processes. We all have 5 senses, a vast unconscious, feelings and the ability to be rational, unless something is wrong with us. But yeah, in a way Se relies on the 5 senses to find patterns.

An SLE kid said to me that "I have a film inside my head that I watch". That is pretty much a Se way of describing the unconscious, I think.

Seems so to me too.

Si is a pattern finder of fields. Fields are subjective observations of objects (bodies). Where Se looks at happenings as isolated images, Si looks at how images flow. Se creates "frozen moments", Si creates "fluidity" between moments.

I have almost exclusively Se-egos in my immediate family, so it is easy for me to observe Se in action.

I also try to make descriptions that don't include motivation, since motivation will depend on circumstances, cultural context, health levels, intellect, etc.

Nice. It´s good to talk to you.

[Airman]

Yeah. Even with religion, SXEs are very absolute (SLEs even more so, having two objective/external functions in their ego), and focused on reality. If an SLE is an atheist, he or she is an atheist because he or she believes that it is a part of reality that God does not exist (which is sort of a tortured statement, but you get the idea). Similarly, for a moral code, the SLE will not emphasize this abstract should out there somewhere, but simply that it is a part of reality that you should not kill people. It's this focus on realism, on treating things as discrete, real objects even when they are abstract concepts, that produces the decisiveness of SXEs. Contrast this with Ni, which insists upon treating anything and everything relative to have it connects to other things, its associations, moving it forward and backward along sliders, i.e., from table to lumber to tree, or from table to desk to chair to footstool (that scale was based on size, roughly), thinking about the zillions of associations an object could have, and shifting the ones that are emphasized at any given moment (this is the Ni perspective shift or gestalt shift). This of course, also happens unconsciously (although you can tease some of it into consciousness if you work hard enough). So yeah.

I think the bold part is very interesting because it describes much of how people with Se in their ego-block treat reality or life. It´s an emphasis on concrete as opposed to abstract, on static as opposed to fluid, in short they see the rock where the Si person is going to see the river flowing through the rocks, to make a somewhat imprecise analogy.

[Beautiful sky]

From an SLE friend. "I was near the fields and saw the winds sweeping across the planes. The ground crunching under my feet. I felt a hand press me hard, down into the field and the love transmitted to me by the hand that was pressing me down. I felt the love by that hand pressing me down into the earth. You go through the tunnel and you are a changed person by the experience you go through; you are a different person, you never leave that field, you always remember that field and you can always revisit that field. "

This speaks exactly what None is saying about their observations being outside and observable and yet also confirms what Ananke says that they capture the dynamics of the moment in like a movie. My SLE friend observes me and studies the quality of me all the time and makes conclusions about at what things I respond in such ways with and ties or makes pattern Ti connections with things like he says I am emotional or I am strong but delicate, etc. (sorry, I don't remember these details very well, but I'll try to record them and write them down for next time).

And it works.

Te

Yes, it was a great exchange of info between you and Ananke. I really enjoyed it.

[Airman]

From an SLE friend. "I was near the fields and saw the winds sweeping across the planes. The ground crunching under my feet. I felt a hand press me hard, down into the field and the love transmitted to me by the hand that was pressing me down. I felt the love by that hand pressing me down into the earth. You go through the tunnel and you are a changed person by the experience you go through; you are a different person, you never leave that field, you always remember that field and you can always revisit that field. "

This speaks exactly what None is saying about their observations being outside and observable and yet also confirms what Ananke says that they capture the dynamics of the moment in like a movie. My SLE friend observes me and studies the quality of me all the time and makes conclusions about at what things I respond in such ways with and ties or makes pattern Ti connections with things like he says I am emotional or I am strong but delicate, etc. (sorry, I don't remember these details very well, but I'll try to record them and write them down for next time).



Te

Yes, it was a great exchange of info between you and Ananke. I really enjoyed it.

Not only between me and her because Silverchris was also exchanging info here.
Thanks for reminding me of the Te part. I´m definitely one of the two Delta STs. I´ve been reviewing my type and it seems hard to know which, Te-ISTP or Si-ESTJ. I know you think I am definitely ESTJ but I am not that much sure. BTW, the description of Meged for the Te-ISTP is just me. Being emotionally hurt is something so illegal to me as beating someone up physically. I don´t think many ESTJs would think like this. Anyway, this is getting off topic here.

[redbaron]

My SLE friend observes me and studies the quality of me all the time and makes conclusions about at what things I respond in such ways with and ties or makes pattern Ti connections with things like he says I am emotional or I am strong but delicate, etc. (sorry, I don't remember these details very well, but I'll try to record them and write them down for next time).

Yes. I've had SLEs size me up before and pronounce me various things and they are surprisingly accurate. Even when they haven't known me for very long. I was taken aback by how "well" they seemed to know me, after observing me for only a couple of hours.

[Beautiful sky]

Silverchris!!

Sexy story, Maritsa. Like a dream. Maybe I really am SLE, cause I related to it a lot. My very first memory : autumn leaves. Bright red maples leaves on the ground. The sound they made when I walked through them. Dry sound. The sun hitting them in stripes from behind the trees surrounding the path I walk on. So bright. Awesome light! I lift my head a bit, and see the dark blue boots of my aunt in front of me. She has no idea I have such a strong experience. I realize she can't read my mind. Laughter. My laughter. I am alive! Awesome moment! I was 2 years and 2 days old. I can still hear the sound. I drag my feet faster and deeper to make more sound. To feel the leaves move so easily, almost like air, when I shuffle through them. My chest feels open. So happy. I run. No memories from before that, and only vague memories from things happening later and much later. But such films are stuck in my head forever and ever and overwhelm me totally when I think of them. I love leaves and they way they interact with the sun. OMG. I could talk like this forever.

Yes you are ESTp, I think
I feel very warm and protected around you, which is why I am attracted to my conflictors, because they are just as protective as my own duals. (I'm attracted to all the ST men because of this warm feeling of protection - ESTj, ISTp, ESTp, and ISTj). SLE are very sweet, they are always asking me how my cousin, who is depressed, is feeling. That's so sweet; they can be so joyful, fun and sweet; so bad that they're someone elses dual and that they don't like routine.

[golden]

This thread is a treasure trove--thanks, everyone, and especially Ananke. I understand Se a hundred times better thanks to these descriptions.

I've been dealing with a particular Ti-SLE who can size me up so quickly and completely it's scary--as if he were reading the book of my life, except I haven't shown him very many pages. And he calls it "intuition," but when he has said that, my reaction has been, "Is it?" And if not, then what is it? And why do I like it so much?

For one thing, his ability to be in command of a situation (an atmosphere, an interaction) makes me feel very safe. His capacity to read me that deeply and accurately--and to deal with what he sees in a strong and honest way--makes me feel that there's no need to hide anything from him. Yet ... he says that he finds me "mysterious."

Which raises some questions in my mind. Why does he find me mysterious and interesting? I have to set aside factors such as compatible intelligence levels or physical attraction (as there are plenty of intelligent and physically alluring women available to him). Does it have to do in part with what Silverchris has said about Ni? I certainly shift things in and out of focus, near/far, surface/profound, narrow/vast. I'm always in flux, a moving target, incredibly changeable. My worldview is bizarre, and as a result my life is crazy, but he enjoys that about me--"I like your untidy life," was how he put it.

So how does an SLE view Ni? What does a person with leading Ni do for an SLE? How does it fit?

(By the way, I play movies in my head, too. Maybe it does come down to what kind of movie your mind makes? Think of my style as a Luis Bunuel film crossed with a music video, with a hint of lucid dream. )

I love Ananke's description of the leaves--beautiful. Compare my description from early childhood, age three: I stand at the edge of a barren field, where the dry brown earth before me has cracked into irregular squares. I look at the cracks and sense that the earth could seep a sweetness, as if these squares were endless brownies baked in a pan. I can taste their flavor in my mouth. My reaction to this illusion transfixes me. I could stand there forever--it feels like forever--meditating on the sensation, the dream of life, the richness of this world. Whatever God is, God is in those cracks. There is no such thing as time.

[Beautiful sky]

This thread is a treasure trove--thanks, everyone, and especially Ananke. I understand Se a hundred times better thanks to these descriptions.

I've been dealing with a particular Ti-SLE who can size me up so quickly and completely it's scary--as if he were reading the book of my life, except I haven't shown him those pages. And he calls it "intuition," but when he has said that, my reaction has been, "Is it?" And if not, then what is it? And why do I like it so much?

For one thing, his ability to be in command of a situation (an atmosphere, an interaction) makes me feel very safe. His capacity to read me that deeply and accurately makes me feel that there's no need to hide anything from him. Yet he says that he finds me "mysterious."

Which raises some questions in my mind. Why does he find me mysterious and interesting? Set aside factors such as intelligence levels, physical attraction (as there are plenty of intelligent and physically alluring women available to him). Does it have to do in part with what Silverchris has said about Ni? I certainly shift things in and out of focus, near/far, surface/profound, narrow/vast. I'm always in flux, a moving target, incredibly changeable. My worldview is bizarre, and as a result my life is crazy, but he enjoys that about me--"I like your untidy life," was how he put it.

So how does an SLE view Ni? What does a person with leading Ni do for an SLE? How does it fit?

(By the way, I play movies in my head, too. Maybe it does come down to what kind of movie your mind makes? Think of my style as a Luis Bunuel film crossed with a music video, with a hint of lucid dream. )

SLE would like someone who is a speaker of truth (Fe), experiencing joy, explores the universe and the nature of it and learns new things about the universe, thinks of things beyond this physical world. They don't want to be with someone who just wants to help people, which is a part of the universe (and what I do best), but because that person misses the whole picture (another words, I miss the whole picture because I'm so here and now and immediate lifetime use of myself); this person has nothing to give them because this person, who is helping people, is using Fi, something of realistic of worldly value rather then "supernatural" or something of imagination and events of the world other then the very immediate physical world. They want to be with someone who is an advanced person, who thinks of those ideas other then just "helping people" in the here and now. They need your perception, your ability to see the future and picture yourself and your emotions in another time or place; they need you to tell them or show them how a certain character, trait, or emotion will evolve into after 30 years, as an example. Someone who uses their own mind to interpret things, not goes to someone else who dictates to them that they must only go to another source to be able to experience and feel or see that which is because everyone can experience those things; that everyone is good.

They see themselves with someone who is a teacher, lover, friend, companion, someone to have fun with, to experience joy with. They love to hear your predictions and ability to see the things that tie together in time, in a romantic way; like my SLE friend is talking to me now about having one love, to live a wonderful life with someone who can share experiences with him and how romantic he thinks those ideas are. They want a partner and a debator.

Duals live within one another so, yes, you can play movies in your head too, just like your duals; lots of things connect you two together.

[redbaron]

SLE would like someone who is a speaker of truth (Fe), experiencing joy, explores the universe and the nature of it and learns new things about the universe, thinks of things beyond this physical world. They don't want to be with someone who just wants to help people, which is a part of the universe (and what I do best), but because that person misses the whole picture (another words, I miss the whole picture because I'm so here and now and immediate lifetime use of myself); this person has nothing to give them because this person, who is helping people, is using Fi, something of realistic of worldly value rather then "supernatural" or something of imagination and events of the world other then the very immediate physical world. They want to be with someone who is an advanced person, who thinks of those ideas other then just "helping people" in the here and now. They need your perception, your ability to see the future and picture yourself and your emotions in another time or place; they need you to tell them or show them how a certain character, trait, or emotion will evolve into after 30 years, as an example. Someone who uses their own mind to interpret things, not goes to someone else who dictates to them that they must only go to another source to be able to experience and feel or see that which is because everyone can experience those things; that everyone is good.

They see themselves with someone who is a teacher, lover, friend, companion, someone to have fun with, to experience joy with. They love to hear your predictions and ability to see the things that tie together in time, in a romantic way; like my SLE friend is talking to me now about having one love, to live a wonderful life with someone who can share experiences with him and how romantic he thinks those ideas are. They want a partner and a debator.

Duals live within one another so, yes, you can play movies in your head too, just like your duals; lots of things connect you two together.

this is beautiful, Maritsa.

[silverchris9]

I stand at the edge of a barren field, where the dry brown earth before me has cracked into irregular squares. I look at the cracks and sense that the earth could seep a sweetness, as if these squares were endless brownies baked in a pan. I can taste their flavor in my mouth. My reaction to this illusion transfixes me. I could stand there forever--it feels like forever--meditating on the sensation, the dream of life, the richness of this world. Whatever God is, God is in those cracks. There is no such thing as time.

lol. This is so Ni. It's so mental, so abstract. So much about the perceiving subject, rather than that which is perceived. That's the difference between Se and Ni. Ni is near-total attachment to the subject; Se is near-total attachment to the object.

Ananke's example was still totally... descriptive and metaphorical, but it was highly metaphorical when describing the external aspects of the experience {"dry sound"), whereas simpler phrases ("awesome day!") were used to describe the internal aspects of the experience (simpler, not necessarily less communicative). And it was fun to read. I sort of wish I could experience things like that, in this very... active way, really engaged. I'd like to imagine I was that engaged in things when I was a child. I have very vague memories of my very young childhood, but they're completely colored and actually rather unpleasant to access (it was before my parents got divorced, I don't suppose I like to imagine how much I preferred that, or remember preferring that---non-divorced parents---to my current situation, no matter how pleasant---amicably divorced parents, split custody.

Silverchris!!

. You being excited puts me in a better mood. lol. Hope life is going well.

[redbaron]

Ananke's example was still totally... descriptive and metaphorical, but it was highly metaphorical when describing the external aspects of the experience {"dry sound"), whereas simpler phrases ("awesome day!") were used to describe the internal aspects of the experience (simpler, not necessarily less communicative). And it was fun to read. I sort of wish I could experience things like that, in this very... active way, really engaged. I'd like to imagine I was that engaged in things when I was a child. I have very vague memories of my very young childhood, but they're completely colored and actually rather unpleasant to access (it was before my parents got divorced, I don't suppose I like to imagine how much I preferred that, or remember preferring that---non-divorced parents---to my current situation, no matter how pleasant---amicably divorced parents, split custody.

[silverchris9]

Ah, not that sad. I mean, I quite enjoy my life as is, but it just occurred to me that's one reason that I spend less time intensely thinking about my childhood. I was really thinking about it more because of Wordsworth than anything else. Shrug. I'm quite fine now. But there is something to being small and having both your parents in the same house, I guess. I'm sure I also saw them fighting, but I've completely repressed all those memories, so they must be even more painful, I assume.

[Beautiful sky]

"I want someone who is spectacular, powerful, and aggressive. I don't like the types who say "oh, god, you're so wonderful."-end of conversation, waste of my time. " -SLE

Golden:

This is a link to one of your previous posts, where you wrote about Ni; this is exactly what your duals are looking for because they take that information and Realize it (aka- make it or work it into real life).

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/702433-post4.html

@Redbaron and Golden

[golden]

"I want someone who is spectacular, powerful, and aggressive. I don't like the types who say "oh, god, you're so wonderful."-end of conversation, waste of my time. " -SLE

Um, are you sure this guy wants an IEI, then? Lolol. I know an Se-leading guy who has a similar complaint about an ex of his--"She told me I'm 'perfect,' but when she said that, it only let me know she just didn't understand me."

And I can be a very dramatic bitch, and I don't hold back. But I'm not sure how I'm perceived IRL.

Are we really sure that SLEs are all good at taking in Ni? What would be an example of HOW that would happen? I guess this issue just kicks some of my fears into reflex, because my conflictor ex couldn't use my Ni at all and now I'm used to being partnered with someone who disregards it.

[redbaron]

"I want someone who is spectacular, powerful, and aggressive. I don't like the types who say "oh, god, you're so wonderful."-end of conversation, waste of my time. " -SLE

I was just gonna say... I'm not spectacular, powerful or aggressive. lol I'm also not as dramatic as Golden and I DO hold back, often. Probably due to my sp-first and harmonizing subtype. I have told SLEs they're wonderful before, but I usually get more specific about how and why. I've also shown them my inner strength and one of them told me that I'm stronger and braver than he. I was taken aback by that one but at the same time felt like wow, someone finally sees my *inner* strength.

And Golden, I'm used to my Ni being totally disregarded as well. It's disheartening.

[Beautiful sky]

Um, are you sure this guy wants an IEI, then? Lolol. I know an Se-leading guy who has a similar complaint about an ex of his--"She told me I'm 'perfect,' but when she said that, it only let me know she just didn't understand me."

And I can be a very dramatic bitch, and I don't hold back. But I'm not sure how I'm perceived IRL.

Are we really sure that SLEs are all good at taking in Ni? What would be an example of HOW that would happen?

Bitch + comedy = perfect
LOL not all SLE are good at taking Ni because they don't self reflect; they have not looked deep inside themselves and had enough bad relationships to tell what is inside that they need. Also, we're so driven by society and our cultural values that we cover our core with a lot of garbage. We put on a mask that gives off the wrong impression of who we are. I've spoken to a few SLE, who when helping them to write a dating profile, would resort to writing things that are not important; the truth not everyone is honest with themselves with they report about themselves.

Here's a really nice quote, not sure who said it, "Between whom there is truth, there's love." ~ Reflect on this saying

I guess this issue just kicks some of my fears into reflex, because my conflictor ex couldn't use my Ni at all and now I'm used to being partnered with someone who disregards it.

Your conflictors are clueless.
You shouldn't be afraid to be you and you shouldn't let your conflictors stop you from being yourself and don't wear a mask because of them. As soon as SLE hear that I love routine, rules and structure to my life, they get surprised and say "you?"; yes! me!; I tell them that I sound good for them, but that I'm not good for them in a living situation, which is fine because that doesn't have to stop us from being friends, it's just that we can't live with each other. So use your Ni and come up with some good sentences that describe you well and tell this to everyone who you meet; when you see that they are judging you and have lost interest in the person inside; that person inside will radiate outwards, of course, as soon as you tell people who you are, then the conflictors will lose interest. I call it weeding the lawn.

[munenori2]

Compare my description from early childhood, age three: I stand at the edge of a barren field, where the dry brown earth before me has cracked into irregular squares. I look at the cracks and sense that the earth could seep a sweetness, as if these squares were endless brownies baked in a pan. I can taste their flavor in my mouth. My reaction to this illusion transfixes me. I could stand there forever--it feels like forever--meditating on the sensation, the dream of life, the richness of this world. Whatever God is, God is in those cracks. There is no such thing as time.

Probably the most poetic thing I've read about eating dirt.

[redbaron]

as soon as you tell people who you are, then the conflictors will lose interest. I call it weeding the lawn.

awesome. lol