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Thread: Challenge #3

  1. #1

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    Default Challenge #3

    So many people were so nice to offer their insights about persons #1 & 2. Although I understand some people may have been annoyed at my admission of not being perfectly objective in description #2, I was trying hard and think I gave a good realistic portrait. Nevertheless, both of these people, especially #2, seem to exemplify some of the paradoxes involving ITj vs. ETj.

    Anyhow, what I'd really like to see is your reaction to #3. I've tried very hard to be objective here. I know this is kind of a long profile, but I think you'll find it interesting to try to see what type this person might be from this description.

    Person #3

    He appears quiet and reserved, and he requires absolute silence and freedom to do his best work. He abhors distractions around him. He can seem lost at social gatherings, but is good company in one-on-one conversation, in which case he seems more outgoing. At times, he may be very open to conversation, but not imposing himself too much. He rarely likes the conversation to be focused on himself. Instead, he wants to know what the other person thinks. Discussion of actions puts him on edge; he's inclined to try to shift the conversation to some topic that doesn't put him on the spot. He likes to ask questions that show off his analytic abilities. He can hardly contain himself in giving suggestions.

    Although he can hand in finished work, he seems to never consider it complete...always open to revision. It's as if he's seeking some sort of "ideal" that he has trouble achieving. Moreover, he seems to get some of his best ideas when he's revising something.

    He appears a slave to his own mental processes. He'll get caught up in investigating something and let more important and urgent concerns fall by the wayside. Sometimes he mentions his feeling of guilt about not being responsible, but he doesn't change his behavior. Very occasionally, he gets stuff done but looks like a machine or toy soldier in the process. At any rate, he can seem very focused when discussing tasks, even if he's not so great at doing them. He may procrastinate something for a long time; but once he gets it in his head, he'll work on it for a long time without stopping. His lack of attention to things often causes problems for him, and he seems to just accept that as the way life is. He sees what needs to be done, but just doesn't do it. When he does, he looks like he's in a slow-motion film. His biggest excuse is that there just isn't time.

    There are days when he's so caught up in investigating something or working on an artistic project that he won't go out at all, or talk to anyone, although he's usually friendly if someone calls. (Sometimes he's abrupt, though, if he's in deep thought.) It seems that if left to his own devices, he might never go out. One strength is that he digs to the core of a problem after others would have given up.

    His biggest problem is that he does things slowly; he's wasted in situations that require a lot of busywork, and much better if doing something more creative or artistic. He's really good at solving other people's technical problems, or giving advice...except that he doesn't take his own advice. When doing something that requires detailed work, he's very fastidious about each detail but takes a long time and takes lots of breaks.

    He's good at teaching; he seems to know the right thing to say. He's calm, patient, and very diplomatic if he needs to point out if someone needs correction. He seems good at seeing things from another person's point of view. He listens to anybody's idea at all and considers it worthy of consideration, although he gets impatient with small talk or what he sees as boring details. He's very flexible and seems inclined to do what another person wants, and is particularly attentive if he notices someone is feeling bad. He's pretty good at consoling people who are close to him.

    He sometimes says things about fields that he probably doesn't know that much about; but what he says is logical, and that's why he can have something to say. His writing can be complex, which makes it seem as if he knows something. Sometimes people question if he really knows what he's talking about because he has his own way of seeing things.

    He takes a lot of notes; it seems he always has ideas for new businesses, stories, fanciful nonsense, or just about life. But he never does anything with his ideas, which is very strange. They just pile up.

    He can antagonize people without knowing it. Sometimes he makes suggestions or does things that cause other people to be shocked, but he isn't aware unless someone points it out to him, at which point he becomes very apologetic and much more careful. He's always eager to patch up disagreements.

  2. #2
    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
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    INFp
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    INFp
    Hmm, really? I'd say INTp, because of certain specific details and the overall feeling I get (and also because I identify strongly with it, especially the description of the person's work process and habits).

    Rereading it, I can see how it could describe an INFp, but it sounds more to me like an INTp writing about himself. For instance, the parts about consoling people, being attentive to someone feeling bad, and being eager to patch up disagreements---I perceive myself that way, but I don't know if that's how others see me.
    NiTe | Socionix

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    Default Re: Challenge #3

    I think INTp rather than INFp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    He can antagonize people without knowing it. Sometimes he makes suggestions or does things that cause other people to be shocked, but he isn't aware unless someone points it out to him, at which point he becomes very apologetic and much more careful. He's always eager to patch up disagreements.
    This sounds like someone with weak rather than strong .
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

  5. #5
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    ENFp
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Gilligan: ENFp
    Everyone else says but you see . Any thoughts on how one could tell the difference from this description?

    Are ENFp and INTp really that similar? I saw something that suggested that out all of Np types, INTp is more likely to be confused with ENFp than with INFp or ENTp. It could be because all the functions are the same except the direction of N (if you count both ego and dual functions)?

    Are there any ISTps or ESTjs out there who could detect whether Person #3 sounds like their dual or activity relation?

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    Have you been describing yourself, Jonathan? The description fits an INTp, intuitive subtype. There is no part of it that doesn't fit me (except that I'm not that good at giving technical advice, and that I become very apologetic might be an exaggeration), but while reading it I was wondering if anyone would suggest INFp, because maybe the only part of the description that clearly indicates INTp rather than INFp is the one mentioned by Expat. Maybe the description is not complete enough to rule out every other type for sure, such as an INFp for example, but my understanding of the INFp type is not complete either.

  8. #8

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    Have you been describing yourself, Jonathan?...
    I guess by now, it's too obvious that I'm Person #3. I was hoping that Rocky would respond before I had to say that. Persons #1 and #2 were people I thought of as MBTI-INTJ with and , which was one reason I had trouble seeing myself as INTp. But apparently, they're not INTp in Socionics.

    Challenge #3 was an exercise in trying to describe myself as objectively as possible, as someone else might see me; I relied on things that other people have said about me, and tried to include the bad as well as the good.

    I was wondering if anyone would suggest INFp, because maybe the only part of the description that clearly indicates INTp rather than INFp is the one mentioned by Expat.
    I think INFps and INTps are similar...theoretically, I guess especially so with the intuitive subtype. I get along really well with some INFps, but I can tell that our perspectives are different in some ways.

    Possibly, tc would call me an INxp. (?) (Or what about an xxxp crosstype? Now that would convey a lot of information. )

    It's interesting that Socioniko.net says about ILI: "he is likewise capable of easing one's despair, when they are unlucky, when things go the wrong way, when destiny seems to be hostile," so that would kind of fit (but the negativism and pouring cold water doesn't).

    I'm still interested though if anything in my description signals as opposed to (besides the parts about loner tendencies). You can see why I identify with ....Coming up with lots of ideas, being led forward by the idea, etc. Possibly the two Ns are a lot closer to each other than the two Ts, Fs, or Ss, and maybe the description as "intuition of the time" or whatever reflects a somewhat limited understanding of by Socionists who are mostly ILE or LII.

    Anyhow, I think this thread pretty much nails it...I'm INTp (still interested in what Rocky has to say ...not that one can determine type by voting, of course).

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    Edited for gayness.
    ENTp

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    Transigent:
    If someone were to give you a choice between 2 lives, which one would you pick, and feel completely comfortable and more importantly moral in living:

    1. Where all your material needs are taken care of completely, and you can be free to investigate and theorize on various subjects and discover new things and ideas.

    2. Where you are given a position of complete and unshakable power and control, and you can be free to bring your conception of what reality should be like to the world.
    Ah, that's very good...very good. At least, what I think you're pointing out is the difference between NT and NF. To the NT, the SF represents providing of material needs; to the NF, ST provides the door to power to implement the NF's moral vision....except that I don't know if that many NFs would consciously admit to wanting power. Or maybe you're after a completely different distinction (introvert vs. extravert? Or something...)??

    Without a doubt, I would pick 1, but I would always wonder about 2 and think that that's also something that I should do in the future if given a chance. Positions of responsibility are nice, but after awhile I'd always think, "okay, now when do I get a chance to just be by myself and explore?" Also, although I tend to think that I could do things better than they're being done, I would probably second-guess myself a lot and wonder if my actions are really having the intended consequences (since no one knows for sure).

    If given the opportunity to pick 2, I would probably try it for awhile.

    That said, I think that there are representatives of lots of different types who seek power....and Ts actually probably seek power more than Fs. Socioniko.net lists almost no major politicians for NF except under ENFj, which has lots.

    According to Socioniko.net, these people may have been INTp:
    Yuri ANDROPOV
    Indira GANDHI
    Charles de GAULLE
    Eduard SHEVARDNADZE

    And these people may have been ENFj:
    Muamar GADHAFI
    Adolf HITLER
    IVAN IV the Terrible
    Osama bin LADEN
    (Gee, what a terrible list for ENFj. Most of the ENFjs I know are really nice.)

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    Edited for gayness.
    ENTp

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    I was actually thinking about the dual seeking functions.

    provides material benifits so is free to explore shit.

    provides an avenue of power to turn into reality.

    Based on your answer to that (and only that) it suggests ENTp? However, it just seems to show how confusing this entire thing actually becomes.

    How do you know if you like or not if you haven't been subjected to it? I guess it depends on your life up until this point.
    That's interesting...so is someone who likes to explore stuff then? What if that desire to explore leads one in an 'introverted' direction? It seems that other people who identify themselves as INTp identify with my description. Maybe we're all introverted ENTps. Or maybe the Socionics house of cards falls...maybe there are a lot of INTjPs out there...that is, a lot of INTjs who are P....and these people consider themselves INTp. That's been the issue that Phaedrus and I and lots of others have been struggling with, because the "common sense" definitions of the functions sometimes conflict with the "official" definitions...and there are no really clear definitions.

    Anyhow, how would you answer your own challenge?

    That said[/quote]

  13. #13
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    Of the two choices, definitely the choice 1.

    But, I am not sure that I would theorize about things; however, I would still definitely investigate and search for the new--after all, that is what I'm doing now, even though my material needs are not satisfied.

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    By the way, I don't see why would be any better at providing material benefits so someone can explore ideas than would be. After S types is a doers whether they're or . They're doing stuff while N types are discussing Socionics.

    It's hard, really, to separate power from material benefits. The surest way to have time to explore and be imaginative, etc., is to become rich and famous. That's why movie stars and politicians have plenty of time to write books.

    Both S types "do stuff," and that frees N types somewhat.

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    Edited for gayness.
    ENTp

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    That's a good and thoughtful post. Please don't edit it away. Still, I don't see how going down one path is related to introversion or considering many paths extraversion. Actually, the more possibilities I consider when I'm alone thinking about something, the more time I'll spend being focused on my internal world. If I just considered one path, then my reflection would be finished and I could spend the rest of my time implementing it in the external world. By considering more paths, I spend more time in reflection.

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