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Thread: Rational/Irrational: From the Eyes of the Irrational Elements

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    Default Rational/Irrational: From the Eyes of the Irrational Elements

    I thought I'd get this subforum moving with some thoughts. I might get to the rational elements eventually. I find irrational elements a bit more basic and raw.


    This is my attempt to get into the mind of a type. I'll just be focusing on the base and hopefully get perspective into comparative types. Let me know what you think, and I'd especially like to hear from irrationals and how they relate.

    Se:

    Looking at things from the perspective of Se is simple but also strange to think of for non-Se types. To see things as an Se-base sees things you must look at what is in front of you. No really, just look around, look to the sides, and look up and down and get a look at what's are you. Now think of being locked in this state of awareness, but make sure you're looking around and focused only on what you see. Don't let your mind drift beyond the immediate reality, keep on it for at least a minute or two. If you do it long enough you may start to become anxious. Like your mind is starving for something. You may feel the need to move something or change something. You may get the urge to just jump up and move around or maybe leave because your surroundings aren't doing anything. They're familiar and boring. If you are in a place with a lot of action and movement, you'll find things that catch your eye. The things that you catch with your eyes are big or loud in some shape or form. You may catch a flashing sign or a colorful dress, or a guy who is just to muscly for their own good. More often than not, you notice 'strong' or 'impactful' things, things that stand out among everything else, and something is attractive about it. You can't get your eyes off it. Being in the middle of the action gives them a rush and makes them feel alive and pumped to handle anything as it comes(edit 10/17). This connection to their surrounds makes them well oriented on reality. They become so adjusted to things being as clear as day that they often take that approach to everything and can seem rash as a result, but often they have have the self-confidence and drive to take on any challenge that may come(edit 10/17). Being so connected to their immediate reality, they're often driven to make their own impact on the world.


    Si:

    Getting into an Si state of mind is similar to an Se state in that it is sensual, but there are some important differences. With Se you are focused on the environment, but with Si you are focused on the feelings that come from looking at the environment. The Si mindset sees it's surroundings well, but it does not 'stare', it 'feels.' When you look at a flower, its beauty is striking. The colors are so vibrant that it causes some reaction in your mind. Red can be intense and inspires passion and you feel as the rush comes and goes as your eyes sweep over it. Blue brings calm and tranquil states of mind and you feel as the color relaxes your body. The same goes for any external perception. You feel how a cool breeze causes a shrill-like feeling across your skin. As you are aware of how these thing affect yourself, you can usually judge very well how the same scenarios are felt by others. "I have felt x when y happened and now my friend is going through y and must also feel x or something similar." For every external happening or even remembrance of something there is a physiological and psychological response, and Si is very aware of all of these connections. All types of pleasure and pain are felt acutely by them and they know well how to control and produce them, but most of the time they prefer to take it as it comes.

    Ne:

    Ne is focused on the environment the same way Se is, but with a key difference. Ne types don't focus on the reality in front of them. Instead they the environment inspires thoughts which they attribute to the things that inspired them. In attempts to get into the mind of an Ne type, look at something around you and now pay attention to what happens in your mind. What does it make you think of? Is it similar to something else you've seen? What kind of characteristics do you think it has? Is it capable of something? Likely you will exhaust your surroundings in mere moments if you're in a familiar place. You've seen it all before, there's nothing left to inspire you. Like being in the Se mindset, being focused on the Ne mindset without a change of something to focus on will cause your mind to starve for information. You can't sit and do nothing. You want to find something else which can spark your interest or bring up new questions. Ne types tend to uncover many new and interesting perspectives on things. They may even seek to find other's ideas and thoughts to inspire more of their own. They have a natural inclination to see 'into' things and pull out new thoughts and possibilities for them. Their usually fresh perspective on reality often makes them a source for innovation and reinvention.

    Ni:

    Ni types have a perception that is furthest from reality. Getting into their mind takes an almost meditative-like state. You must shut out reality and focus on the images that come from your mind. Try sitting in complete silence where nothing is going on, and close your eyes and just be open to what comes to your mind. The images and memories that come about in this state are what Ni focuses on. This is the perception that carries the most weight for an Ni type. Their external awareness fades in and out as they are naturally focused in on these mental images which are independent of any immediate physical input. This focus that is drawn away from the immediate moment forces them to think about events of the past replaying them in their mind. They begin to see things that they didn't see the first time around and become aware of the interrelatedness of events that have occurred. They become naturally inclined to imagine how events in time lead from one to another and become aware possible future outcomes. They are aware of how they can influence the future and often aim to do so, but at the same time all the factors that are involved can be overwhelming and they are often not capable of causing great change as they are only one person. Often they prefer to just indulge in their mental imagery as there is far more complexity and meaning in their mind than there is in reality.
    Last edited by Azeroffs; 10-18-2010 at 05:36 AM.
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    I'll comment on this more deeply later (have to run to class) but I thought your description of Ne was pretty much right on the mark. Very insightful
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    I relate to both Ne and Si quite a bit. Well described.

    I appreciated the take on Ni because I am still trying to figure that one out. I'm surprised to see it so multi-dimensional--I'd started thinking of Ni as pretty one dimensional. But you're Ni-creative, so I'll go by what you say.

    Where are Fe/Fi and Te/Ti???
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azeroffs View Post
    Si:

    Getting into an Si state of mind is similar to an Se state in that it is sensual, but there are some important differences. With Se you are focused on the environment, but with Si you are focused on the feelings that come from looking at the environment. The Si mindset sees it's surroundings well, but it does not 'stare', it 'feels.'
    This is good. I read what Young had to say about Si, and it finally made me really realize that my perception of the environment is subjective. I mean, I really realized it, in a concrete way. For me, the way I perceive the environment is how it is. Then I have to really concentrate to only register the raw sensory data, without the subjective component. I've tried this "exercise" for some weeks now. So now I think I understand why Si is about comfort. Because comfort is not something that is "out there". It is how the sensory data affects you. But for an Si leading type, like me, it is hard to understand that this is in fact subjective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    I relate to both Ne and Si quite a bit. Well described.

    I appreciated the take on Ni because I am still trying to figure that one out. I'm surprised to see it so multi-dimensional--I'd started thinking of Ni as pretty one dimensional. But you're Ni-creative, so I'll go by what you say.
    I relate to my Ni description to some degree, but these are meant to be from the irrational perspective, so I'd still like to hear from Ni-base types. Also, i think we tend to be biased and understand our devalued elements a little more single dimensionally. I do it too. I'm still not sure how to approach Ti. Half of the time I try to describe it, someone jumps out to correct me.

    Where are Fe/Fi and Te/Ti???
    I might get to them eventually, but they're more complex. Even with rationals, I believe that they are more infleunced by irrational elements than irrationals are by rational elements.

    In other words it's hard to imagine stand-alone rational elements because judgment is based on perception. Perception is relatively independent from judgment at least as far as imagining it goes. In reality it's not the case.. but yeah.


    @ Vero and Nowisthetime

    I'm glad you both can relate.
    Last edited by Azeroffs; 10-14-2010 at 10:45 PM.
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    These are good. Thanks for posting them.
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    These are excellent! Insightful posts like this are the whole reason I joined this forum to begin with.

    I figured out how to put myself in "Se mode" a while ago. It's kind of intense, but quite exhausting for me. It takes continuous conscious effort to maintain.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azeroffs View Post
    I relate to my Ni description to some degree, but these are meant to be from the irrational perspective, so I'd still like to hear from Ni-base types. Also, i think we tend to be biased and understand our devalued elements a little more single dimensionally. I do it too. I'm still not sure how to approach Ti. Half of the time I try to describe it, someone jumps out to correct me.



    I might get to them eventually, but they're more complex. Even with rationals, I believe that they are more infleunced by irrational elements than irrationals are by rational elements.

    In other words it's hard to imagine stand-alone rational elements because judgment is based on perception. Perception is relatively independent from judgment at least as far as imagining it goes. In reality it's not the case.. but yeah.

    Interestingly I've noticed that Fi vs Fe-valuing and Te vs Ti-valuing are what jump out at me first when trying to type people.

    Maybe what elements influence you the most are your creative and HA. I know tcaud mentioned something along those lines in his book. and i find it to be true ime.
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    Man, I would hate to be an Se-base type...I have a whole new sympathy and respect for ESP's now...

    And you're right, there are parallels between your post and mine...interesting. And I promise I did not see this thread until after I'd posted mine. Anyway, very enlightening.

    I can relate quite well to the Ne-base description. Thankfully, I have other functions on which to rely on as well; it would be terribly exhausting to be stuck in my base 24/7 with no rest.
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    I'm really liking this approach, Azeroffs. Can't wait for the rational ones!

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    concur, great job on these. when i ready the Si one i immediately felt relaxed. the Se one made me feel jittery and the Ni one made me go into a trance.

    Ne=me. :-)

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    Blaze, out of curiosity, do you find yourself going on auto-pilot when you're in an area that you've been before? Like, say you're commuting or going on a walk you've been on before, will you just drift off to your thoughts?

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    Meh, I hate this kind of thing. So much pretending there are details to our knowledge of these entities, all the while focussing on subjective landscapes that can impossibly be drawn into an empirical discourse. But I won't spoil your party.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    Meh, I hate this kind of thing. So much pretending there are details to our knowledge of these entities, all the while focussing on subjective landscapes that can impossibly be drawn into an empirical discourse. But I won't spoil your party.
    I think you're right to be skeptical of it, but it's hard to deny that this approach has its uses in building understanding and clarity in way that you can actually relate. If not for you, then still for some.

    It gives a better general idea even if it's not exactly correct, a luxury you don't get in socionics anyway.
    Last edited by Azeroffs; 10-17-2010 at 01:24 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    No functions are "easier" to imagine, and no functions are "harder". They are all as complex, if in different ways. If it was easy, then some PoLRs wouldn't be bad to have.
    You misunderstood me. It may be easier or harder to imagine what it's like to be a certain type. Even if it's your own, it's not easy to understand what that means because you have nothing to compare. Whether it's easier or harder to imagine an element as a base function is entirely subjective. No one can really imagine an elements awareness for what it actually is. You can only get a glimpse into what it might be like.
    Last edited by Azeroffs; 10-17-2010 at 08:49 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    So what you say is that you imagine how it is to be a certain type, and then you expect me to see value in your fantasies...?
    I clearly stated at the top that this is an attempt to get into the mind of a type. If you see no value, I don't know why you even bothered reading.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    You also asked for feed-back from irrational types. You obviously should have written "from irrational types who want to give positive feed-back!".
    I want feedback on the content. If you have a problem with the approach, then there's nothing to discuss.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanks Arthur View Post
    Blaze, out of curiosity, do you find yourself going on auto-pilot when you're in an area that you've been before? Like, say you're commuting or going on a walk you've been on before, will you just drift off to your thoughts?
    totally. i flake out....not really all there. i'm only really all there when something is new.

    i bet SEI is always totally there...do you think?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    My first post addressed the content, but what I said escaped you.

    You think it is easy to put yourself in the mindset of Se or Si because you are intuitive. It is as arrogant as if a sensor said something like "it is easy to be in the mindset of Ni (or Ne), cause you just imagine that you understand things you don't understand, and that way you don't have to make an effort to learn anything. Also, you can make judgements based on your own fantasies, instead of reality. After a while, you may start to feel angsty, cause nothing real is produced, so then you jump back into your mindset and produce another imagined reality, and then you'll feel ok again."

    It is not that you are totally off that makes me feel there is no use in discussing with you. It is that you are close enough to reality to produce stupid stereotypes.
    Again this isn't criticizing the content, it's criticizing the approach. If you had a problem with the content you should have just said so, and then I know and make adjustments. I'm not saying this is how it is. I'm presenting my thoughts which you are fully within your right to disagree with. So if you disagree with it then disagree with. I'd like to let people say for themselves whether they think my approach worked. The whole idea of this approach is that I present what I think it might be like and that others tell me yes or no.

    I was saying it's easier than rational elements. Not ease. Besides, Its completely subjective statement. Idk why you're getting all bent out of shape about it. I couldn't care less if a sensor said Ni or Ne is the easiest thing in the world to imagine.

    Don't get all up in my ass just because you think I'm being arrogant. Just focus on the content.

    Just for the record, Se doesn't typically feel angsty or bored by what it sees. It can just as well feel thrilled and alive and a part of everything.
    This is the kind of feedback that I'd like to see. I agree that I have given a negative twist to Se, but I think if you get over that you'll see that the bold is very much consistent with what I said and something I'd hoped to imply, but obviously I didn't do a good job of that. I'd like to add that in if you don't have problem with it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azeroffs View Post
    Ni types have a perception that is furthest from reality. Getting into their mind takes an almost meditative-like state. You must shut out reality and focus on the images that come from your mind. Try sitting in complete silence where nothing is going on, and close your eyes and just be open to what comes to your mind. The images and memories that come about in this state are what Ni focuses on. This is the perception that carries the most weight for an Ni type. Their external awareness fades in and out as they are naturally focused in on these mental images which are independent of any immediate physical input. This focus that is drawn away from the immediate moment forces them to think about events of the past replaying them in their mind. They begin to see things that they didn't see the first time around and become aware of the interrelatedness of events that have occurred. They become naturally inclined to imagine how events in time lead from one to another and become aware possible future outcomes. They are aware of how they can influence the future and often aim to do so, but at the same time all the factors that are involved can be overwhelming and they are often not capable of causing great change as they are only one person. Often they prefer to just indulge in their mental imagery as there is far more complexity and meaning in their mind than there is in reality.
    This fits me the best. This is actually what I had in mind when it came to back when I typed myself ILI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azeroffs View Post
    I thought I'd get this subforum moving with some thoughts. I might get to the rational elements eventually. I find irrational elements a bit more basic and raw.


    This is my attempt to get into the mind of a type. I'll just be focusing on the base and hopefully get perspective into comparative types. Let me know what you think, and I'd especially like to hear from irrationals and how they relate.

    Se:

    Looking at things from the perspective of Se is simple but also strange to think of for non-Se types. To see things as an Se-base sees things you must look at what is in front of you. No really, just look around, look to the sides, and look up and down and get a look at what's are you. Now think of being locked in this state of awareness, but make sure you're looking around and focused only on what you see. Don't let your mind drift beyond the immediate reality, keep on it for at least a minute or two. If you do it long enough you may start to become anxious. Like your mind is starving for something. You may feel the need to move something or change something. You may get the urge to just jump up and move around or maybe leave because your surroundings aren't doing anything. They're familiar and boring. If you are in a place with a lot of action and movement, you'll find things that catch your eye. The things that you catch with your eyes are big or loud in some shape or form. You may catch a flashing sign or a colorful dress, or a guy who is just to muscly for their own good. More often than not, you notice 'strong' or 'impactful' things, things that stand out among everything else, and something is attractive about it. You can't get your eyes off it. Being in the middle of the action gives them a rush and makes them feel alive and pumped to handle anything as it comes(edit 10/17). This connection to their surrounds makes them well oriented on reality. They become so adjusted to things being as clear as day that they often take that approach to everything and can seem rash as a result, but often they have have the self-confidence and drive to take on any challenge that may come(edit 10/17). Being so connected to their immediate reality, they're often driven to make their own impact on the world.

    Si:

    Getting into an Si state of mind is similar to an Se state in that it is sensual, but there are some important differences. With Se you are focused on the environment, but with Si you are focused on the feelings that come from looking at the environment. The Si mindset sees it's surroundings well, but it does not 'stare', it 'feels.' When you look at a flower, its beauty is striking. The colors are so vibrant that it causes some reaction in your mind. Red can be intense and inspires passion and you feel as the rush comes and goes as your eyes sweep over it. Blue brings calm and tranquil states of mind and you feel as the color relaxes your body. The same goes for any external perception. You feel how a cool breeze causes a shrill-like feeling across your skin. As you are aware of how these thing affect yourself, you can usually judge very well how the same scenarios are felt by others. "I have felt x when y happened and now my friend is going through y and must also feel x or something similar." For every external happening or even remembrance of something there is a physiological and psychological response, and Si is very aware of all of these connections. All types of pleasure and pain are felt acutely by them and they know well how to control and produce them, but most of the time they prefer to take it as it comes.

    Ne:

    Ne is focused on the environment the same way Se is, but with a key difference. Ne types don't focus on the reality in front of them. Instead they the environment inspires thoughts which they attribute to the things that inspired them. In attempts to get into the mind of an Ne type, look at something around you and now pay attention to what happens in your mind. What does it make you think of? Is it similar to something else you've seen? What kind of characteristics do you think it has? Is it capable of something? Likely you will exhaust your surroundings in mere moments if you're in a familiar place. You've seen it all before, there's nothing left to inspire you. Like being in the Se mindset, being focused on the Ne mindset without a change of something to focus on will cause your mind to starve for information. You can't sit and do nothing. You want to find something else which can spark your interest or bring up new questions. Ne types tend to uncover many new and interesting perspectives on things. They may even seek to find other's ideas and thoughts to inspire more of their own. They have a natural inclination to see 'into' things and pull out new thoughts and possibilities for them. Their usually fresh perspective on reality often makes them a source for innovation and reinvention.

    Ni:

    Ni types have a perception that is furthest from reality. Getting into their mind takes an almost meditative-like state. You must shut out reality and focus on the images that come from your mind. Try sitting in complete silence where nothing is going on, and close your eyes and just be open to what comes to your mind. The images and memories that come about in this state are what Ni focuses on. This is the perception that carries the most weight for an Ni type. Their external awareness fades in and out as they are naturally focused in on these mental images which are independent of any immediate physical input. This focus that is drawn away from the immediate moment forces them to think about events of the past replaying them in their mind. They begin to see things that they didn't see the first time around and become aware of the interrelatedness of events that have occurred. They become naturally inclined to imagine how events in time lead from one to another and become aware possible future outcomes. They are aware of how they can influence the future and often aim to do so, but at the same time all the factors that are involved can be overwhelming and they are often not capable of causing great change as they are only one person. Often they prefer to just indulge in their mental imagery as there is far more complexity and meaning in their mind than there is in reality.
    I noticed that you associated feelings with the descriptions of and and thoughts with the descriptions of and . What about autocrats?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huitzilopochtli View Post
    I noticed that you associated feelings with the descriptions of and and thoughts with the descriptions of and . What about autocrats?
    Wow, good catch.

    It really wasn't intended that way. I'd probably have to rewrite it with that in mind. But I guess I just associated sense to feelings because 'feeling' is a term often used for sensual things while intuition is primarily something that goes on in the mind hence 'thought.' "Feel this shirt" "Think about how you hurt her"

    I personally don't think they're colored too bad by thinking/feeling maybe with the exception of Si, but that's just me. It probably would have been better if I created 8 descripts, but I was just too lazy or that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azeroffs View Post
    "Feel this shirt" "Think about how you hurt her"
    It might be better if you think about it these terms
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