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Thread: A Socionics Example

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    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
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    Default A Socionics Example



    This video is of a song by the singer India.Arie, who I type IEE. This song is, in my opinion, a good example of some of the things that are most likeable and most irritating about Delta NFs.

    First, note the "dark" tone of the song. It has a warmth and darkness that I initially wanted to associate with beta---but here is proof that Delta NFs aren't sunny and shiny all the time. They can get dark too, and their emotions, their insides, are just as capable of producing "dark and twisty"---to quote Grey's Anatomy, i.e., the worst show on TV---as your average beta.

    But then, notice that this "dark and twisty" is not expressed using ANY Fe. This is an angry song. It expresses strong frustration at some unnamed individuals who have seriously hurt the singer, and presumably done some pretty shitty things to her. But when we listen to the song, we get a great since of the singer's personality and character, but almost none of the rage that she must have experienced. Contrast this strongly to a beta, like Eminem, who really wears his heart on his sleeve, especially where anger is concerned. (He is certainly splenitive and rash). Or even Jill Scott, who is, imo, Ni/Se, although I am not sure whether she is an Ni ego or an Se ego, or even if she's gamma or beta. But you can see a much more confrontational streak in her, a willingness to expose some degree of anger and aggressivity. The obvious example is the hit "Hate on me," but examples abound: "Gettin' in the Way" is the other obvious one, but others have quite a bit of aggressivity, if not anger per se.

    Rather than giving us rage, India gives us, yes, ethical condemnation, but also a sort of positive statement. This is one of the most admirable characteristics of Delta NFs. It is similar to the diplomacy of the Beta NF, but, to be honest, it seems to come from a much more legitimate and deep-rooted place (perhaps owing to the difference between introverted and extroverted feeling). She has legitimately transmuted her unhappiness into a strong will to continue. She is saying, "yes, you've hurt me, but I'm going to focus on the positive, without forgetting that I've been hurt." Her outlook is clearly positive, but just as clearly not happy-go-lucky. It's positive, but it's positive in a way that recognizes that she's been wronged.

    However, this song also exposes many of the things that irritate individuals, especially betas, about delta NFs. Notice that she never directly names any of her assailants. And sure, this is reasonable; you don't want to air dirty laundry by name. That's just tacky. But imagine the position of the ones who "did her wrong," listening to the song. They are being condemned in this dismissive manner. It is delta aristocracy: the "enemies" have been excluded from the circle because of their impolitic behavior, even to the point of making them nonentities. And the Delta NF, unlike the Beta NF, seems to impose a rather unquestioning interpretation upon the events: "You won't get the best of me, even though you got my money; I'm gon' pick up the pieces." Even though the Delta NF may know internally that this doesn't solve the situation, they pragmatically accept that interpretation as the one that will allow them, again, to reestablish the kind of relations with others that they prefer to have. The Beta NF will struggle longer with developing an interpretation, and as such the interpretation will tend to be less axiomatic, or at least it will have a higher degree of ambiguity (i.e., Ni and Negative Capability).

    It seems, to my Beta NF ears, that she is too unquestioningly casting herself as the hero of this particular morality fable. It is a subtle distinction between this and a Ti categorization of individuals as right or wrong, and one that I am having trouble making. Perhaps the difference is that the Beta NF would focus more on "You were wrong in this situation, and I was right. I hope your are punished somehow," rather than "You were trying to stop me, but I'm going to keep going." The right and wrong are more explicit in the beta version, and more implicit in the delta version.

    But the biggest thing I want to emphasize in my "reading" of this song is that the Delta NF is not a happy-go-lucky, pie-in-the-sky idealist. India is grounded. She is dark, in some ways. But she emphasizes a positive outlook that comes from a deep-rooted desire to seek the action that will pragmatically allow her to return as quickly as possible to the state of harmonious relations with her environment, especially in her interpersonal relationships, that deltas so strongly desire.

    Contrast this strongly with Beta NFs. Delta NFs may frown and swagger and express anger. They can do this quite well. But it is ultimately a facade, or a temporary state. The state they prefer is one of harmonious relationships. So a healthy Delta NF will tend to return much more quickly to a frame of mind in which they focus on the positive, clear the negative aspects of the situation from their immediate consciousness (not that they forget about them altogether, however). This is because you can only have positive social relationships (positive Fi bonds) when you're in a state of mind where you are open and available, especially if your Fi bonds are also dependent on Si comfort/homeostasis. If you want to be close to people based on how comfortable and "safe" you make each other feel, you're not going to put yourself in an emotional state in which you're dwelling and brooding on the wrongs done you. Again, it is not that Delta NFs cannot dwell and brood. They do, quite often. But they are more likely to quickly accomplish internal repression, wherein they simply "look away" from the negative aspects of the situation, so as to alter their emotional state. To put it another way, feeling good feels good to Delta NFs; feeling bad feels bad.

    Now, Beta NFs are totally opposite. Beta NFs will often act out externally the state that the Delta NF achieves internally. They accomplish a sort of "external repression" (and yes, I know, you Freudians are shaking your heads at me, because that is essentially a contradiction in terms, but hey, it's my metaphor!). This external repression allows the Beta NF to put on a mask of perfect indifference, of having surmounted the challenge at hand and emerged stronger. But privately, rather than seeking to clear away the negative emotional state to return to Fi + Si homeostasis of internal disposition, the Beta NF aspires towards an Ni/Ti/Fe understanding of internal states. These extreme feelings are, for the Beta NF, not something to be overcome so that positive and harmonious relations with the environment can be restored, but an opportunity to explore the nature of the self and the painful feelings. It is a moment for self-discovery. The disadvantage of this is that it is terribly self-focused. The Delta NF wants to repair relations with the outside world, even if that requires excluding certain others from this outside world, and certain feelings from the inside world (actually, the Delta NF will hold on to these feelings, and they will often return to him or her, but the Delta NF does not actively seek the feelings as a means of self-discovery. At best, the Delta NF will accept feeling these dreadful feelings of betrayal or whatever as a necessary evil, a grieving process that comes over them inevitably, which is to be dealt with internally and spread to others a little as possible). The Beta NF wants to explore the self, using negative emotions as a launching pad. An advantage of this approach is that the Beta NF tends, in my biased opinion, to sustain a more complex conceptual balance: rather than exclude things in order to "move on," the Beta NF refuses to move on until everything can be fit into a revised conceptual system. The Beta NF does not move on until something in the internal intuition (the conceptual framework or heruistic by which symbols are interpreted) rather than the internal feeling (the emotional core which judges outside events by their correspondence or non-correspondence with this ineffable core) has changed. To be more precise, the internal intuition changes; the internal feeling returns to a state parallel to the initial state (one can conceptualize it as a state equal to the prior state in two out of three dimensions, and different in a third). To provide the parallel, then, feeling bad feels good to Beta NFs, and feeling good feels good---it's all about absolute value (extremity of emotional state, Fe), rather than directionality of feeling (positive or negative feelings towards, Fi).

    Often, the Beta NF will see the celerity with which the Delta NF recovers and say, "Oh, you must be unhealthy! You repressed all that shit that happened to you! You didn't wallow in your emotions long enough to figure out what exactly happened! It must not have really hurt you at all, if you recovered like that." And often, the Delta NF will see the Beta NF's wallowing and say, "Oh, you must be unhealthy! You're damaging your close relationships by staying stuck in this fog of focusing on your own emotions! You refuse to look at the bigger picture of how your attitudes are affecting your life! Instead, you just focus on you and how you feel. That's a selfish attitude." And yes, both perspectives are logical. But the fact is that the Delta NF can be quite healthy focusing on the positive and recovering, and the Beta NF can be quite healthy focusing on the negative and pursuing some kind of discovery of the self.

    The Delta NF says, "I now understand that sometimes friends will betray you. I have made my peace with that fact, even though it still makes me sad at times. But I have a purpose, and I'm going to move on with my life towards that goal, rather than obsessing over this bad feeling." The Beta NF says, "I now interpret friendship differently. I have changed my internal matrix of symbols regarding what certain actions relating to friendship and betrayal mean. I see differently now, so I can move on." Very similar result; very different internal process.

    Alright! Thoughts? Questions? Opinions? Gripes?


    EDIT: Another suitable comparison is that the Beta NF seeks to produce internal change (having two internal dynamic IMs in her ego) as a result of wrong, whereas the Delta NF seeks to return to internal (homeo)stasis (having two internal static IMs in her ego) by surmounting wrong.
    Last edited by silverchris9; 10-05-2010 at 01:42 PM.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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    Jesus is the cruel sausage consentingadult's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    YouTube - Psalm 23 - India ArieHowever, this song also exposes many of the things that irritate individuals, especially betas, about delta NFs. Notice that she never directly names any of her assailants. And sure, this is reasonable; you don't want to air dirty laundry by name.
    This sounds like an assumption about the motives of Delta NFs for putting the distress in a song, namely that the sentiment is being communicated to other people, e.g. to get some kind of support in return (which would make sense for Fe-valuing people). But if she is truly Delta NF, it is more likely that the sentiments have been put into art as a way of making sense of what happened, a coping method, which for Delta NFs is is more likely to be a solitary process, not a social one. Or, if you will, look at it as a way ruminating, not as a way of communication.

    ETA: nice analysis, btw!
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    This sounds like an assumption about the motives of Delta NFs for putting the distress in a song, namely that the sentiment is being communicated to other people, e.g. to get some kind of support in return (which would make sense for Fe-valuing people). But if she is truly Delta NF, it is more likely that the sentiments have been put into art as a way of making sense of what happened, a coping method, which for Delta NFs is is more likely to be a solitary process, not a social one. Or, if you will, look at it as a way ruminating, not as a way of communication.
    Oh, okay, good point. So she's not intending to communicate to the people who she's complaining about. But surely she's aware that they will hear the song, unless they're like, dead or something. And the way she talks to this disembodied "you," even as a way of making sense of her problems, is rather unsettling to me, precisely because it has this dual quality of being a ruminatory, general "you" (as in "everything in the world that's against me") and what people often perceive as standard Delta backbiting---whether said backbiting is intentional or not---which is its second quality of being a communicative, specific "you". It is consciously a ruminatory you. But us betas, always assigning subconscious motives, can't help but think that it is also, even if subconsciously, a dig at a specific person, which is all the more affronting for pretending to be general, because I (the "bad guy") am thereby conflated with the "general out there bad-ness": simultaneously robbing me of personhood and making me equivalent to badness itself.

    Of course, nobody consciously thinks all those things I just said, but I'm trying to elucidate the sort of unconscious reasons why many people perceive things that are totally normal, healthy responses as unusually affronting. That's the trouble with quadra conflict. When you're just doing what is natural and healthy for you to do, it is not only perceived as unnatural by this opposite quadra person, but it is also actively harmful to the opposite quadra person, no matter how innocently it was intended. It is a no-fault situation: the actor was doing what came naturally, spontaneously, and healthily, and the acted-upon was only interpreting the action in the natural, spontaneous, and--for her--healthy way. Yet the acted-upon feels [threatened, hurt, offended, affronted, insert-negative-adjective-here], and the actor feels like, "woah, what did I do?" Socionics is really much more tragic than most people believe. However, like most tragedies, it is a tragedy that can be surmounted by ignorance.

    This is all quite good and insightful. I've nothing constructive to add really—all I can say is I agree w/ everything you're saying here. Thanks for this post.
    Awww... I'm blushing. You're just saying that because it's a wall of text and I used a bunch of confusing words to hide all the bad/wrong things I said.

    Just kidding. Thanks for the compliment.



    EDIT: Also, I should probably find a beta NF wallowing-in-sorrow song as a parallel. Or maybe a poem... hmmm... when I find one, I'll include it in the first post.
    Last edited by silverchris9; 10-05-2010 at 01:45 PM.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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    Nice.

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    This was extremely enlightening, thank you.
    4w5 sp/sx

    Please, direct all questioning of my self-typing to this thread. Thank you.

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    That was oddly Beta NF-centric.

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    Also an example of the problems with the Reinen dichotomy "positivist/negativist". I agree with what you've written - this is just a tangent. People mistype using those dichotomies because they'd read this and say, "See, she's being positive . . ." It took me a long time of being here before I understood why I wasn't a "positivist" by that dichotomy. I do feel the way you're describing her feelings, and that's a good example of why I thought I'd be a positivist. People should be here at least about a thousand years before they pay too much attention to Reinen dichotomies. If they pay much attention at all. They're more likely to throw people off than point them in the right direction.

    Anyway, sorry for the tangent.

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    Nice song. I didn't read your complete analysis, but those lyrics definitely lie on the Fi/Te axis. Trust, betrayal, contempt, anger, endurance... strong feelings expressed in a very clear, personal, direct and grounded/drama-free manner. No exaggerations, no abstractions. Pure , with understated , and brought to a minimum.

    And yes, the ability to overcome emotional pain, to look past people's wrongdoings and remain ethically sound as they move on with their life is an admirable quality of IEEs.
    Last edited by Park; 01-21-2011 at 03:58 PM.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

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    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    And sure, this is reasonable; you don't want to air dirty laundry by name. That's just tacky.
    I air dirty laundry by name. If somebody does something that I think is morally wrong, or just 'bad' in whatever way, I say their first and last name and their home address if I know it. I try to make the 'whole world' see what they just did. Maybe it is tacky. But I don't care.

    Then I notice delta nfs (in general I mean) saying I should be 'above that' and I should 'let go and forgive my enemies.' Hogwash. They're just hiding by God, or something 'misty' that probably doesn't exist. Anybody can do that.

    Ultimately, I actually do believe in physical aggression against people who've insulted you. That's why I've fallen in love with druggies, violent people, and estps with anger issues. People who society would say 'No way can you love this person' me personally, I've loved them very much. (and they've truly loved me in a way that other people don't)

    It doesn't mean that I won't feel empathy or that I don't think people should feel guilty if they hurt or kill somebody. But if you treat somebody like shit and then expect them to just 'forgive you and move on' that's not right. That's hiding behind something, just so you can continue to do 'whatever you want.' You can't act like that and expect people to not want to kick your fucking ass. This kid I really liked, everybody used to make fun of him because he had deaf parents. He was so cute. And then they acted all buthurt when he got violent and kicked their asses. I told every single one of them. "You brought it on yourselves, asshats. You said you were just teasing, but those words hurt. You deserved to get your asses kicked."

    I've really identified with Carrie in that one movie. She totally wtfpwned her bullies. LOL. That's some awesome shit right there. And omg it was so awesome how that psychologist she thought was her friend turned on her and she telekinetically whacked that bitch to the next century. You go girl!

    Now I know people like to think 'That's lowering yourselves to their level' but it really isn't. They're just saying that to you because they lack the balls to take matters in their own hands. (And/or they secretly agree with the teasing like Carrie's therapist)

    But yeah, really good job Chris. I liked your insights with this. It was pretty much spot on.

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    I kinda identify with the Delta NF bits, but it didn't make me go "wow, that's me right there."

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    I've really identified with Carrie in that one movie. She totally wtfpwned her bullies. LOL. That's some awesome shit right there. And omg it was so awesome how that psychologist she thought was her friend turned on her and she telekinetically whacked that bitch to the next century. You go girl!
    lol.

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    Good OP.

    Not every Delta is into "forgive and forget", BnD. I need to work at it due to my religious beliefs, but when I am betrayed, my instinct is to hurt them back and, if the situation is not resolved, feel overjoyed when they get theirs.
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