Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.
they would aid the commander in some questions. Technical issues or something.. Or not.. hmm, I wouldn't put him up to the front though
I might be thinking of an ISTj now, I'm not sure how an INTj is
is like a wet kiss on the cheek and a warm hug by a cute smiling girl.
is the confetti shots on your birthday party with all your friends.
is a way to completely rip apart the face of god and stare directly at the naked universe.
is like over here and then over there and they are all connected and I am on amphetamine.
I don't think that the military is an environment where an INTj is going to feel comfortable, to say the least.
, LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
Originally Posted by implied
the military is for pawns. seriously, I cannot say nearly enough about how much I hate the military (not that I think that there shouldn't be one). INTjs are too independent and awesome to be military guys. I knew an INTj wo enlisted because the girl he loved did and she told him that he should too, but he never ended up going to boot camp (he didn't graduate high school).
Come on Joy, show respect. And if you're not going to do that, at least don't contradict yourself.
I didn't contradict myself. Perhaps I didn't explain myself well, but I didn't contradict myself. I really can't stand it when people are in the military... like, if I see a hot guy, and he starts talking about how he is in or just left or is about to join the military, the attraction drops to -5 instantaneously. I still respect him as a person... if he wants to sell his soul to the government, that's his decision. Just because I have absolutely NO interest in talking with or getting to know him doesn't mean I disrespect him.
Joy, what do you think the goverment is?
You've said how much you hate anything associated with it before... so does that mean that you hate Travis' school teachers because they work for the goverment? Did they sell their souls? If your house was on fire, would you tell the Firemen to "Go away" because you don't want his help because he works for the goverment?
I'm just trying to get at whatever your bias is.
The Russian minister of defence Sergei Ivanov is a good example of INTj... however, he has never served in the army He is a three star general of FSS (Federal Security Service, former KGB).
Here is his detailed biography and a portrait:
www.socioniko.net is no longer my site.
I'd make training me a living hell for my instructor, albeit doing it unintetionally.
"To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"
"Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."
Rocky, the government employees teachers and firefighters, but it literally owns military enlistees. And like I said, it's not that I think the military shouldn't exist. However, the brainwashing process they refer to as bootcamp represents everything that I am not. All they're teaching you to do is turn off your brain and strengthen your body in order to make it the best possible tool. It's all about conformity and obedience. *resists urge to throw up*
I can understand how you don't like to work with people. But I think it has more to do with needing to work as one big group to actually get things done. I don't think that's really a loss of identity (I'm not the most natural at it, but I can see where it would be needed in certain situations).
Oh yeah, and I'd say the more Se you can use, the better you would fair in the military (to answer the question).
Rocky. Your answer youre looking for is within the word autonomy.
I do like to work WITH people. I just can't be ordered around. And I think what you said about identity is part of what my issue here is, but it's also the loss of will. Even in an employment situation, I do not obey my "boss"... I decide for myself what would be in my best interests, whether that goes along with what the "boss" wants or not. More importantly though, management is merely other employees. The only difference is the tasks we've been hired to complete. My only "boss" is the business owner.Originally Posted by Rocky
No, that's not it.Originally Posted by Jadae
...Originally Posted by Joy
I don't think people in the military loss their will/identity. They may line up together, follow orders, and so on... but that's only to complete a task (and a necassary one as even you admitted). Once they take off those uniforms they become normal people like you and me again (though maybe more self-confident/self-reliant).
And more aggressive and controlling and rigid.
Colin Powell: INTJ thinking subtype.
INTJs are best as commanders.
INTJs are too passive.
And I'd say Powell is ENTJ.
bitch, i use to be a prison guard.Originally Posted by Rocky
that is what i was getting at. if there is an inescapable appropriation that is required in the act of understanding, this brings into question the validity of socionics in describing what is real, and hence stubborn contradictions that continue to plague me.
Originally Posted by Rocky
Spit it out then
the bonds created in the military through bootcamp aren't 'brainwashing' and 'tool-making.' They are moreso collectivist bonds. There is a strong group unity in any military setting, this isn't brainwashing, and the strong community is not built on being 'all for one's country,' it's more like 'hey we are in some shit together, let's be best friends through and through.' I'm only saying this because 2 of my immediate family members have joined the military and i have observed their behaviour and attitudes towards the military religiously. My statement also relates to what Rocky says, "needing a big group to get things done." A big group needs a sense of unity, even moreso considering the labor required(there is no immediate return on your work, no marketplace, etc, therefore they need a reason, and moreso, a cause. sometimes this is patriotism, sometimes it's the community sense immediately established in bootcamp). The military strengthens the human bonds as much as the work ethic(or as you would call it, their 'tool capability.') of it's members.
INTJs can be very passive... unless they actually "learn" about the situation, and develop the competence for it. Then comes cofidence...Originally Posted by Rocky
If you think an INTJ is just "passive", then appear inadequate or incompetent infront of one for a long enough time. The INTJ will set you straight.
Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.
I have mixed feeling with military guys. When military duty was still mandatory in my country, I was ready to choose a much longer civil duty, the few contacts I had with them had been bad.
I definitely don't like them but they may also be helpful to help people when there is a disaster.
I was drafted, and did not like it. The service was compulsory--actually, one had a choice: do the service, or go to jail. Obviously, the second option was not worth it.
I will NEVER AGAIN date a person who has been or is or wishes to be in the military (though I could see making an exeption for the poor soul who is still recovering from being drafted). Especially marines... *feels ill*
I was exposed to a lot of BS in the military. As an INTj I definitely rebelled. Case and point:
Sergeant - “You’re a Soldier first”
Me - “No. I’m a rational and compassionate human being first.”
My Fi definitely asserted itself in the military. There were no injustices on my shift, against me or my fellow soldiers. There were some people who thought that I wasn’t the military model, but I respectfully disagreed. Even though I made a lot of enemies I just could not stop myself from challenging the system where these injustices occurred. (That isn’t to say I do so inappropriately).
That self-sacrificing nature was, is, very powerful. I abhor violence, but desperately sought to be sent to Iraq. This was not only to fill a billet, but so that while I was there I could offer the support I gave so effectively at my home unit to others in the field.
In my experience a lot of people in the enlisted ranks are threatened by types of thoughts that come from TiNe. But in Officer ranks that is rewarded. Both in technical positions(And there are an enormous amount on INTj Officers in technical positions) and leadership. I would agree that I was passive at first, but once I began to see leadership as a system like computers or any other science I stopped being passive. This is greatly propelled by the feeling that I can and will do the right thing as a leader.
I really found myself in the military, and I wish that I could serve in a capacity consummate with my abilities. Case a point:
Different Sergeant - “Everyone is a Soldier first, even Generals.”
Me- “Tell you what. You be a Soldier. I’m a General.”
I think is interesting how this is how I choose to sum my military experience, and all 5 of the sub sections under the INTj profile are represented one way or another in what I said.
Doesn't matter anyways, I'm with someone. I've had horrible experiences with 3 military guys. I date who I want, and I've seen a lot of people who have allowed themselves to go through that experience (selling their soul to the government) and have had military training and I am not interested in being involved with those people.
... I was gonna say the same thing but decided to hold back because I didn't want to get in any more arguments with Joy. Arguing with her seems pointless because she has very biased opinions... and doesn't seem to care if she keeps her opinions to herself or not.Originally Posted by ChibiKeba
fine I'm wrong. whatever.
when I said "I will NEVER again" I was pretty much just exagerating the truth of the matter, which is that for me, military experience is a VERY unattractive thing.
Don't you get good health coverage for life for your family and what not too? And free school?
LOL nothing is free
sorry if you feel insulted chibikeba, I didn't mean anything against military people, other than that I don't care to live with them
Just because you were in the military doesn't mean that you are "this way" or "that way". I mean...uhm...their "duty life" and "home life" are different. It's not like they'd be issuing and following commands in the home. Maybe SOME, weird ones.... but.... I didn't think peoples personalities were THAT defined by their profession or whatever the military is concidered to be...
just forget I said anything
Sorry Joy, I'm not saying that you can't have personal opinions, just that you should realize that you may either offend certain people or spread around poors stereotypes about good people.
Sometimes I say or do something and later can't remember the accompanying thought process.
I don't worry about offending people most of the time, but I try not to hurt anyone's feelings. Sometimes I care a lot more about how people respond than I do other times.
I was the one who made a judgemental statement. Having people call me on it is just the natural progression of events. And you're both right.