Se an irrational element?

[krieger]

The uncertainty of the future is a simple fact of the human condition. It has nothing to do with Ni or any function.

[jughead]

Bullshit. Your relying to much on technicalities of definitions than what its actuality.

[krieger]

The russians are pretty unambiguous about the fact that Ni types are the ones that are primarily concerned with making predictions about the future.

Just throwing that out there. I have no idea whether the post above was directed at me or not.

[xerx]

According to Stratievskaya's descriptions of ILIs, their Ni is about intuitively knowing the timeliness of events and the time in which they will take place. Not through planning, but casually and sort of second-nature, even subconsciously. They're capable of making very fine approximations by observing and building upon the processes they naturally observe.

One thing she says about ILIs, (paraphrased) this is a type of man who never rushes yet is never late for a meeting [he wants to go to].

It's been my experience that weaker Ni types (and even Ni creatives) are the ones who tend to overplan, even using a mnemonic like a schedule, to give them an edge in something they don't have as natural a tendency to do on their own.

[redbaron]

The russians are pretty unambiguous about the fact that Ni types are the ones that are primarily concerned with making predictions about the future.

Yeah. It's like I almost can't stop my mind from reeling forward. and then back and then forward again. Everything leads to a certain point or points in the future (and they occasionally look different as I gather new information) and if it doesn't directly relate, then I treat it as irrelevant.

I try to compensate by enjoying life, forcing myself to cook or bake, making things, knitting, shopping etc. Like I have to distract myself from some over-arching problem or end point by reminding myself that there's a physical reality that needs attending to and if I can only enjoy the here and now, it doesn't matter what that end point is. But I never fully believe it.

(maybe this is why I seem SEI sometimes)

[krieger]

I think it is also another fact of the human condition, though. Predicting the future is what brains do. It is their main purpose. There are variations in how the prediction is reached, but in the end, it's all about knowing what's going to happen before it happens.

This is how neural tissue first provided survival advantages to microbes, and how it still primarily provides survival advantages today.

I try to compensate by enjoying life, forcing myself to cook or bake, making things, knitting, shopping etc. Like I have to distract myself from some over-arching problem or end point by reminding myself that there's a physical reality that needs attending to and if I can only enjoy the here and now, it doesn't matter what that end point is. But I never fully believe it.

(maybe this is why I seem SEI sometimes)

My INFp grandmother does a lot of this too, for what it's worth.

[xerx]

I think it is also another fact of the human condition, though. Predicting the future is what brains do. It is their main purpose. There are variations in how the prediction is reached, but in the end, it's all about knowing what's going to happen before it happens.

This is how neural tissue first provided survival advantages to microbes, and how it still primarily provides survival advantages today.

Survival is not random!

[JohnDo]

From descriptions I've read, there appears to be a contradiction in terms here: Se-dominants are irrationals, and yet the definition of Se seems to fit the rational definition far better. ESTps and ESFps seem to be quite decisive, effective planners, organizers, and harsh leaders.

To answer the question of the OP: You mix up Rationality with Decisive*Strategic*Farsighted. These three Reinin dichotomies overlap to a certain degree with Rationality:

Rational types make decisions early - Decisive types, too. Types that are both Rational and Decisive (ENFj, ISTj, ENTj, ISFj) decide immediately, types that are Irrational and Judicious (ENTp, ISFp, ENFp, ISTp) need months or years to come to a decision. "Eeny, meeny, miney, moe, catch a rabbit by the toe,..."

Rational types set goals - Strategic types, too. Types that are both Rational and Strategic (INTj, ENFj, ENTj, INFj) usually set a lot of goals, types that are Irrational and Tactical (ENTp, INFp, INTp, ENFp) are not interested in goals at all. "The way is the goal"

Rational types think about the future - Farsighted types, too. Types that are both Rational and Farsighted (ESFj, INTj, ESTj, INFj) usually think a lot about the future, types that are Irrational and Carefree (ENTp, ISFp, ENFp, ISTp) don't worry about the future at all. "Just wait and see"



ESTp and ESFp are somewhere in between. They make decisions when it's time to make them (Decisive, but not Rational). They certainly set some goals (Strategic, but not Rational). They sometimes think about the future (Farsighted, but not Rational).

[Brilliand]

Also I agree w/ being averse to extensive planning. types, typically more than others, are genuinely aware of and accepting of uncertainty—i.e. in the words of Ludwig von Mises (INTp): “One of the fundamental conditions of mans existence and action is the fact that he does not know what will happen in the future.” / types, particularly and PoLRs, strike me as being more scared of uncertainty and see it as something to stamp out and eliminate. They are boring and No Fun at all.

This reminds me of something that my statistics professor said - which I can't remember verbatim, so I'll paraphrase heavily. "Those who like where things are headed - who are in a good situation - need to decrease variation (stamp out uncertainty); those who are in a bad situation need to increase variation, to increase their chances of getting out of the bad situation."

I typed him INTj, incidentally.

[krieger]

It's Se types that are boring. The only way they manage to get a sense of excitement out of anything is by being indiscriminate to the utmost extreme degree. That's the alternative to shaping the world in the image of your values: accepting the way things are in their banal, trite mediocrity. But what's worse than any of this is that they pretend you're missing out on something if you're not like them. As if having standards and not going for instant gratification could reduce the quality of your life. Stupid brats.

[xerx]

lol labcoat got beat up by types in high school

Whereas you'll probably get outsmarted by types for the rest of your life.

[redbaron]

This reminds me of something that my statistics professor said - which I can't remember verbatim, so I'll paraphrase heavily. "Those who like where things are headed - who are in a good situation - need to decrease variation (stamp out uncertainty); those who are in a bad situation need to increase variation, to increase their chances of getting out of the bad situation."

I typed him INTj, incidentally.

I was thinking about this the other day and I totally disagree. I know a couple INTjs who are VERY unhappy but cling to the way things are, avoiding change at all costs. Their very fear of change causes a deep-seated anxiety and unhappiness that permeates the world around them. Conversely, I know people who are very happy with their situations and love and enjoy change (the ones I'm thinking of are beta irrationals). So I don't see how that quote holds.

[Airman]

Yesterday I found out finally and conclusively that one of my 3 real close friends is ISTj. I already suspected it but it all fit. Has anyone noticed how common ISTJs are? They´re everywhere like a plague, much more than ESTjs it seems.

[crazedrat]

yeah, like you're one for example

[Airman]

yeah, like you're one for example

lol , do you think that really? People evaluate other people´s types here much on a superficial level. And I agree that I´m not an average ESTJ so this makes more difficult. But I´m clearly TeSi... my accumulation of endless and useless knowledge can hardly be seen in an ISTJ, it´s just Te. In a Buddhist group I participate in they call me 'Google' because I memorize easily all buddhist and sanskrit terms and the like. An ISTJ in the group thinks this is just useless - and in this sense he is right. All ISTJs I know don´t give a damn about such memorization of information, factual accuracy. They are much more skilled in logical procedures, which they value much more. For example mathematics which I always hated because it was just Ti...totally logical procedures within a framework. I hate that, I find it boring and robot-like. On the other hand I was excellent at history, geography and languages. Because they involved much more 'alive' thinking. I know what the names of most capitals of the world are, no joke. I used to get an atlas as child and memorize the capitals of the world just for knowing. My INTP dad always stimulated this kind of accumulation of information even when useless.

But anyway ppl who don´t like me will endlessly say I´m beta on this forum so, there is no point in discussing my type here.

[Absurd]

You better take notice of your weak points or I will use them without feeling remorse, not that I ever didn't, but I think you would be still as a rooster before loosing your head.

[Brilliand]

I was thinking about this the other day and I totally disagree. I know a couple INTjs who are VERY unhappy but cling to the way things are, avoiding change at all costs. Their very fear of change causes a deep-seated anxiety and unhappiness that permeates the world around them. Conversely, I know people who are very happy with their situations and love and enjoy change (the ones I'm thinking of are beta irrationals). So I don't see how that quote holds.

It holds pragmatically, not in what people actually do. Maybe good chess strategy or something.

[Logos]

yeah i've known intjs like this as well

IME / types seem much less change-averse on average

IME / hate change just as much, usually when change interferes with their ability to "win the game."

[redbaron]

IME / hate change just as much, usually when change interferes with their ability to "win the game."

nope because they can figure out a way to win the game regardless of change and usually can make the change work FOR them rather than against them.

[Logos]

nope because they can figure out a way to win the game regardless of change and usually can make the change work FOR them rather than against them.

Not IME.

[redbaron]

Not IME.

maybe it's an individual thing then but that has definitely been my experience with beta irrationals.

[xerx]

God what a horrible thread. Pople like change related to their valued functions and hate the stuff they don't value. Betas/Gammas are just as capable of being reactionary to things they don't like as Alphas/Deltas. If you think someone is boring because they don't value the change you want to see, odds are they probably find you boring for the same reason.

[Beautiful sky]

Se- perceptual element
Te- conceptual element

[Beautiful sky]

Also, I think irrationals usually subject their decision making to particular situations. If the situation changes, then their decisions likely will as well. Rationals would rather adjust the situation so they don't have change their mind.

That's what is a process. There's no contradiction between what I'm saying and what you are here.