ENTj opinion on friendly cuddling/snuggling

[nanashi]

ENTJs would you be okay with a snuggling (NOT MAKING OUT) sort of interaction with an ILI of the opposite sex, when neither of you is looking to date the other person, you've both been through stress lately (not trauma, just lots of daily stress and some loneliness), and you are just both appreciating human contact? It's really similar to just being near a family member or holding a best friend; however, you've both admitted months ago in a friendly setting that you found each other attractive AND the lines haven't really been drawn that WE WILL NEVER be together, as I've made clear with other guy friends so that I can tell them they are pretty without confusing them, etc.

I think I need to have some info on if the LIE could do it before I could even consider doing it with a strict agreement "we stop if we get romantic feelings or something" proviso.


I mean, yeah, it's sweet and all, but how unrealistic is it to think it could be sustained--eventually won't you start getting the biological engine going ? I would think this kind of activity would be ludicrous to even consider with most other types. I'm exploring the possib that an ILI and a LIE could handle it.


P.S. we're both single. LIE only for a month from an ESFP-Fi or an ISFj. I have gone on 1 date with an ESFP-Fi guy and hung out with him a little. I'd like to see him again. But things are moving slowly with him. I've been single for a year. I've only gone on dates with people this past year since my break-up with an ENTP.

[gobearcats]

What do you really want? If you told me, "do you want to cuddle but I don't want to do anything," I'm thinking she wants to bang.

[nanashi]

The male LIE is the one who brought up doing it. I am attracted to him, but it's very diff kind of feeling than what i get around the ESFP dual I just went out with.

The LIE has specifically withdrawn from romance in his life. He just needs a break.

I know humans thrive on closeness and connection.

UPDATE: the dual was ESI

[gobearcats]

Realistically, anyone's looking for the next best thing to come a long. Honestly, I'd say if you did it, it takes it one step further. There's nothing wrong with going with the flow and LIE are theoretically closet romantics, so he probably thinks about the shit all the time while logically justifying against his emotions.

[nanashi]

What do you really want? If you told me, "do you want to cuddle but I don't want to do anything," I'm thinking she wants to bang.

He broached the subject.

What do I want?
I want to explore all comforting, stress-relieving activities I can easily engage in. I've got a lot of stress.

It doesn't matter how much I like getting busy in a committed, romantic relationship, I've got insane self-control, so I'm not worried about waking up after an ill-advised romp so much as maybe one of us trying to kiss the other one in a few weeks or something and hurting each other. You know that delicate innard of the NT?

I think I could eventually be convinced to be open to INTp-ENTJ romance, but I've been a proponent of DUALITY-OR-NOTHING-ELSE for so long, it would take some convincing.

[nanashi]

thank you for your reply. it helps.

[FDG]

Well, if you are attracted to each other and start hugging and kissing in an intimate setting...guess what might happen?

[1981slater]

Well, if you are attracted to each other and start hugging and kissing in an intimate setting...guess what might happen?

A ten-minute commercials break!

[Words]

I think Fi HA makes the situation a bit more precarious for the ILI than the LIE

[Azeroffs]

Letting socionics dictate how you look at relationships is a bad idea IMO. That aside...

I think LIE usually have pretty strong self-control and determination. If they say they're going to do something, they'll usually do it simply for the sake of sticking to what they said. However, it seems naive to believe that this won't develop into something. In general, people don't cuddle with people they have no interest in. If there is interest, cuddling will escalate things. There's no reason to uphold a blind adherence to some agreement if neither of you wants to keep it.

[nanashi]

First off: I've seen people occasionally mentioning the forum has shallow questions about romance. I may ask a lot about it. The questions may seem inane, but I lose my ability to forecast here and my ability to be independent--that's probably the biggest issue for me: I'm supposed to act (not withdraw into my head and ignore) but I'm also not supposed to just handle/control everything. Romantic : the ILI's Achilles' heel.

Well, if you are attracted to each other and start hugging and kissing in an intimate setting...guess what might happen?

Kissing is not on the books. It's too romantic to me. I'm talking platonic closeness, etc. No overtly sexual moves. Cuddling. Like a parent and new baby do. It would clearly bond the two people because of oxytocin, but it needn't be sexually focused because the kissing, eye-gazing, sweet-nothing, making out business would not be present, so no dopamine and serotonin deal, I'm thinking. No excited rush.

A ten-minute commercials break!

lol

People don't cuddle w/ others that they couldn't be (potentially) intimately attracted to… so obviously that

Yes, intimately attracted to. Our romance style isn't satisfied though with each other. There isn't that dual "totally accepted and fireworks and very alive" feeling. There's huge similarity. There's just enough extroversion in him to catch my interest a little more than with my other ILI bud.

element is in play here. Be aware that, if you're going to pursue a pseudo-relationship of sorts with said person, odds are that it can and will escalate into something beyond 'cuddle-friends' or what not. You're both human, feelings happen; you already know this.

Yes, I do know sexual contact bonds people and gets them on an emotional rollercoaster.That's why I was asking you all. It's why I wanted to think it through before I acted. It's also why--after having been too tipsy and exhausted to operate my vehicle and having to spend the night at his house (he wasn't creepy and made no overt moves)--I left after just a few hours sleep. I was wondering if there is a way to safeguard against our sex cycles turning on but still have the physical comfort of a human relaxing next to you. Puppies or kids or family members do this without sexual innuendo. I'm considering it.

I think the key to making it 'work'—in whatever direction it ultimately goes—is being flexibly mature and actually not setting expectations on what's going to happen. Expectations alter behavior, and often in ways bad and repressive. There's also this reality to contend with: You can both swear oaths on how you "WILL NEVER BE" together, etc.—but it doesn't mean shit considering the unpredictable nature of the situation; neither can reasonably know from where you stand now what the likely outcome will be… so acceptance of this uncertainty will yield more realistic perspective. And make things a lot easier lessening the tension of either party pushing towards or against an impending outcome they weren't actually comfortable deciding yet. This way, in the event it turns out you just want to be friends, that can be okay. Alternatively, if it turns into something more, that can be okay too.

I sent him a message this morning before knowing there were new replies here. I said it was cool if we understand we're friends and if we inform the other if we start considering romance with anyone. I also said he's hot. I also said I don't think I've got what he needs (described ISFjs in layperson's terms) but that it's not like I have not considered it and won't consider it again. I apologized if I made it weird to say all this and said I have a need to be ultra upfront in regard to romance.

Duality isn't everything, don't let Socionics micromanage your love life. I mean, if you really consider it, what sound justification is there for why we should suspect duality equates to 'ideal relationship', except for that it "looks symmetrical on paper according to Model A."

Nanashi shakes her fist at the Mirror relationship going on right here with Ashton's reply. I have already been thinking each of these points over. I craved a solid answer. But now I'm being all flexible and re-re-thinking them.

Nobody's done any actual research to confirm these notions AFAIK. . Don't get me wrong—duality obviously works well for some people. But you'll find many miserable and dysfunctional dual couples too. In the least, it's good policy to date within quadra—thereby avoiding major IE-centric differences that often culiminate in systemic misunderstandings.

I'd love to know what that IE-centric bit means, when you have the time to explain it

Beyond that though, I think there's more important considerations. i.e., the basic and obvious determinants of a good relationship: Similar backgrounds/upbringing, shared beliefs/values/outlooks, mutual hobbies/interests, compatible goals/directions in life, psychological health of the persons, willingness to actually work at the relationship, etc. Any relation without a strong hand in these aspects will be fucked IMO, to a point no amount of Socionics compatibility can salvage.

I think Fi HA makes the situation a bit more precarious for the ILI than the LIE

Por quoi? I am feeling obsessive about not making a bad choice here, so that could be my weak Fi, I guess.

Letting socionics dictate how you look at relationships is a bad idea IMO. That aside...

I think LIE usually have pretty strong self-control and determination. If they say they're going to do something, they'll usually do it simply for the sake of sticking to what they said. However, it seems naive to believe that this won't develop into something. In general, people don't cuddle with people they have no interest in. If there is interest, cuddling will escalate things. There's no reason to uphold a blind adherence to some agreement if neither of you wants to keep it.

except that he's given me every indication that he's really realized he needs to take a break from relationships (in our conversation about his exes) and that he (as I do, too) has a great sense of companionship and interest in the other's thoughts and some tiny attraction because of the Extro and Introvert qualities and quadra values (not in socionics' terms) and generally pleasing physicality. It's not what I'd call a spark. I mean, I already have feelings for ESFP-Fi guy, and I've only gone on two dates with him, even though we interact very briefly almost daily, and I've already got a great romantic interest in him.... it's not easy to hold my interest like that.



In conclusion, thank you all very much. AND the Academy.

[nanashi]

Lol, no worries. It didn't seem shallow to me.



You'll be fighting an uphill battle against nature trying to do that I think. IME it's effectively impossible for a (heterosexual) ♂/♀ pair of friends who find each other attractive, to maintain purely platonic relations w/ one another; especially if they're both single. Realistically, we're not wired for that sort of thing.

I read an article exploring opp sex friendships. Some were romantically tinged. Some weren't. The ones that worked, they found after interviewing, etc, were the relationships where what the romantic involvement allowance was was clear (we can be romancey if we feel like it as well as WE ARE SISTER AND BROTHER-LIKE were both working). So the conclusion was that you had to communicate clearly about which kind it was, or things were uncomfortable. However, F-buddies (in another article I read) were shown to be negative relationships...


. I've had at least 3 very close, intimate relationships in college (possibly more but I'm too tired to think) with men I treated alternately like a platonic husband/brother/best friend---with very clear no-romantic future and no romantic physical stuff, but I love your soul and am very faithful toward and protective of you. Interesting combo of best friend and family dynamic, and that's part of why I say I treated them/treat them like a platonic mate (just no sexy stuff). They still knew I thought they were attractive, we were emotionally intimate and supportive and physically comfortable spotting for each other at the gym and hugging each other in hardship and taking care of each other's day-to-day reminders.

Lol, be careful. He's going to like that you were upfront.

He did. Lol. I got a reply where he echoed that he's not ready for serious, cuddles sound fantastic, he's okay with the friend deal, he seconded communicating about changing status, and he warned being friends and having mental attraction during convos or physical attraction during hugs, etc will not just go away, but he'll stomp down the attraction now, and he wants the companionship.

Just consider what your 'needs' are, with respect to the person (not the type). I've seen very healthy Mirror, Activity, and even Identical couples. Duality just seems to be another kind of relation along the same lines, not necessarily an ideal one. The extent to which any relation is "ideal" is going to be far more dependent on non-Socionics factors IME.

For instance, I don't find myself romantically attracted to most of my duals per say. It's easy to see how the Socionics part of it works out fine—communication-wise and what not. But there can be many other aspects out of sync which make it hard to be 'into' them. Which seems to be a common experience for many people, and it makes sense. Why expect to have perfect attraction to an entire ~1/16th of the human race?



Just means conflict either induced or exacerbated by differences in IE-values. These differences are kind of a Big Deal and can/will be a source of consistent misunderstanding between two persons. Since IEs are like innate cognitive filters through which minds parse sense of experience, one's perspective is immutably bound by them—i.e., a / will never see things in the same shades that a / does, or vice versa. At best, one can gain awareness of each other's differences, and learn to emulate a synthetic understanding of it. This can be useful in bettering communication and making life easier, but it's never the same as natural, direct, firsthand perspective. It would always be an approximation of / only, understood abstractly via /.

thank you, and I am gonna be careful--but grateful--with this arrangement

[Beautiful sky]

ENTJs would you be okay with a snuggling (NOT MAKING OUT) sort of interaction with an ILI of the opposite sex, when neither of you is looking to date the other person, you've both been through stress lately (not trauma, just lots of daily stress and some loneliness), and you are just both appreciating human contact?

Sure they would be, as your benefit relations, I would be too.

It's really similar to just being near a family member or holding a best friend; however, you've both admitted months ago in a friendly setting that you found each other attractive AND the lines haven't really been drawn that WE WILL NEVER be together, as I've made clear with other guy friends so that I can tell them they are pretty without confusing them, etc.

I think I need to have some info on if the LIE could do it before I could even consider doing it with a strict agreement "we stop if we get romantic feelings or something" proviso.


I mean, yeah, it's sweet and all, but how unrealistic is it to think it could be sustained--eventually won't you start getting the biological engine going ? I would think this kind of activity would be ludicrous to even consider with most other types. I'm exploring the possib that an ILI and a LIE could handle it.

Well, mirrors are a lot alike on a lot of levels.

P.S. we're both single. LIE only for a month from an ESFP-Fi or an ISFj. I have gone on 1 date with an ESFP-Fi guy and hung out with him a little. I'd like to see him again. But things are moving slowly with him. I've been single for a year. I've only gone on dates with people this past year since my break-up with an ENTP.

Get on a dating site and let me choose your duals. OOOPs sorry honey, I just remembered that you're INTp and my benefit relations, so you won't listen to me so Do whatever you want but get out more, especially go to coffee bars more often; lots of ESFp's love mocca frapaccinos's (it's a coffee drink)

[FDG]

lots of ESFp's love mocca frapaccinos's (it's a coffee drink)

LOL. I love this sentence.

[nanashi]

Sure they would be, as your benefit relations, I would be too.



Well, mirrors are a lot alike on a lot of levels.




Get on a dating site and let me choose your duals. OOOPs sorry honey, I just remembered that you're INTp and my benefit relations, so you won't listen to me so Do whatever you want but get out more, especially go to coffee bars more often; lots of ESFp's love mocca frapaccinos's (it's a coffee drink)

LOL, Maritsa! Something about that plan appeals to me, frankly . But! (you're right I won't do take you up on it after all, which behavior must have been annoying as hell for my EII mother! :*( ) I can't feel comfortable allowing you to see info that's personally identifying, which I might have to put on a dating site. It's just not that safe... But I really do find the concept appealing, and I think it's sweet of you. Also, my mom, and you prolly would too, seem to choose more ESTj-esque types, missing why I'd be attracted to ESFP-Fis.

LOL. I love this sentence.

That made me happy, too!

[stevENTj]

I think I could eventually be convinced to be open to INTp-ENTJ romance, but I've been a proponent of DUALITY-OR-NOTHING-ELSE for so long, it would take some convincing.

uhh... WHY?

Letting socionics dictate how you look at relationships is a bad idea IMO. That aside...

Indeed.



Anyways nanashi, have you ever stopped to consider that maybe the reason you've been single for awhile and a bit lonely lately is because you're potentially closing doors that you shouldn't be by limiting yourself to ONLY a certain type, all based on some "theory"?

Listen, either you'll click with someone and have some mutual attraction or you won't. What does it matter what "type" they are? I know, blasphemy on a forum about types, but it is just a theory. Also it always blows my mind how everybody always seems to be able to type other people they barely know so easily. If this LIE guy just broke up with some girl and it was either an SEE (activity) or an ESI (duality), two pretty darned good types of relationships probably better than mirror, then what does that tell you about duality? Maybe there's a bit more to it than that? And maybe you shouldn't limit yourself like you are?


As for this "FWB" stuff and various iterations, personally I think all if it is unhealthy. If you're not ready for a relationship then don't put yourself in one or where one could potentially develop, and the same with this LIE guy. Time wasted with this LIE could be better spent finding someone else who really is "for you". Or heck, maybe things will go well with this LIE and you'll reconsider non-dual relationships. Personally it's tough for me to see mirror as a romantic type relationship. I like LIEs a lot and have plenty of LIE friends including some female ones, but there just isn't that "spark" that you get in a romantic type relationship.

[stevENTj]

I know humans thrive on closeness and connection.

BTW, are you sure you're an ILI? This statement alone sounds very un-ILI-like to me.

[nanashi]

uhh... WHY?

Indeed.



Anyways nanashi, have you ever stopped to consider that maybe the reason you've been single for awhile and a bit lonely lately is because you're potentially closing doors that you shouldn't be by limiting yourself to ONLY a certain type, all based on some "theory"?

Listen, either you'll click with someone and have some mutual attraction or you won't. What does it matter what "type" they are? I know, blasphemy on a forum about types, but it is just a theory. Also it always blows my mind how everybody always seems to be able to type other people they barely know so easily. If this LIE guy just broke up with some girl and it was either an SEE (activity) or an ESI (duality), two pretty darned good types of relationships probably better than mirror, then what does that tell you about duality? Maybe there's a bit more to it than that? And maybe you shouldn't limit yourself like you are?


As for this "FWB" stuff and various iterations, personally I think all if it is unhealthy. If you're not ready for a relationship then don't put yourself in one or where one could potentially develop, and the same with this LIE guy. Time wasted with this LIE could be better spent finding someone else who really is "for you". Or heck, maybe things will go well with this LIE and you'll reconsider non-dual relationships. Personally it's tough for me to see mirror as a romantic type relationship. I like LIEs a lot and have plenty of LIE friends including some female ones, but there just isn't that "spark" that you get in a romantic type relationship.

I'm looking at the cuddling as a family or young kids or puppies sort of interaction. People keep thinking it's sexual stuff I'm talking about engaging in. I'm not. I'm talking about stuff that6 will induce an oxytocin bond probably, but not an aroused one.

Frankly, I'm close to addicted to sex, but I have that quality coupled with ridiculous amounts of self-control.

I think I need physical contact with a human I can trust to not be a creeper and try to make a move. I actually trust this guy like that.

I have noticed the compliment of a dual. I am considering expanding my looking-for to include ENTJs as well. I just have had a slew of relationships (romantic and non) with non-duals that don't offer me what I'm looking for in a partner.

BTW, are you sure you're an ILI? This statement alone sounds very un-ILI-like to me.

Say it in a Spock voice, and it will make more sense. I 'know,' etc. Also, I have an EII mom. It does things to you as an ILI-Te.