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    Default Here's another profile

    The last ID challenge was so fun, I thought I'd do another. Here's another person I know. Perhaps he's the same time, or maybe a different one...you decide.

    Person #2

    This person is considered brilliant by most people, although to himself he never seems to do well enough. Probably the most salient feature in his personality is his uncompromising quality. He will never compromise on principle, or on his agenda.

    His lack of compromise has been known to bend wills. Anyone who opposes his will eventually "blinks" and gives in. It is as if he charted a course for his life, and decided never to permit anything to stand in the way.

    He appears very outgoing, engaging, and charming, being ready with stories about his many experiences. However, he creates the impression that there's more behind the surface that he doesn’t reveal.

    He quickly creates the appearance of having mastered every subject with a certain thoroughness. Hence, he can easily carry on a conversation with people from many walks of life and speak of that person's topic with a certain sense of authority. However, he never tries to inflate the impression of his knowledge; if he doesn’t know something, he won’t pretend that he does.

    Despite his breadth of knowledge and seemingly endless abilities, he remains focused and dedicated in his chosen scientific field. He works tirelessly, day and night, on highly obscure problems in very esoteric specialties, hoping to make some contribution, no matter how small.

    As a teacher, he can be very difficult; he is extraordinarily demanding, and he has a tendency to expect people to make intuitive leaps so as to follow what he’s saying. However, through practice, he has learned to explain things more methodically for people to understand. When explaining something, he has a certain sense of excitement, as if he’s letting you in on some secret, something that only very smart people are allowed to know.

    He is very skeptical of the ideas of people who seem to him uninformed. He deeply believes that one shouldn’t say anything about something one doesn’t know much about. He is very direct in his attacks if someone says something out of ignorance. He is not very accepting of what he considers wild speculation. On the other hand, if someone with some knowledge proposes an idea, he will search his mind to see if it's possible. When searching his mind, he sort of 'goes into himself' and creates the impression that he's going through a file cabinet inside there and coming up with the answer. When he has the answer, it's absolute: "No, that it isn’t possible, because XYZ."

    One thing that's extraordinary about him is his thoroughness and discipline. Whereas other people, in learning a new topic from a reference book, would focus on just getting a few key details to be able to perform a given job, he will read the entire book from beginning to end, in one sitting, and with absolute thoroughness.

    He strongly believes in the importance of 'hardening' oneself; thus, he admires qualities such as physical courage, extreme endurance activities, and "roughing it." At times, he can be authoritarian and commanding; he feels comfortable telling people to do, and he won’t take no for an answer.

    Because of his brilliance and hard work, he's the natural leader in any organization, and used to find himself in leadership positions, but seems to have "outgrown" the tendency to be involved in anything outside his chosen path.

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    Default Re: Here's another profile

    Entp
    Wonder why and if I have to be an INTJ or how to do the best of it.

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    ENTj
    NiTe | Socionix

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    #1 and #2 could be the same person. The mathematician/chess player I was thinking of, doesn't fit description #2 very well, but even so, I think that he, #1 and #2 might all be INTjs. That one, two or perhaps even all three of them might be ENTjs is not totally impossible either.

    There is very much INTj in descritpion #2, more so than ENTj, and even INTps can identify with some parts of it.

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    I disagree, he's more like an ESTj.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    I disagree, he's more like an ESTj.
    Agreed, ESTj.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Expat: disagree, he's more like an ESTj.
    Interesting that most people here see him as S. I thought his interest in obscure, esoteric fields in science and the fact that he expects people to make intuitive leaps in understanding what he says would rule that out.

    Why do you think he's an S type?

    Interestingly enough, person #1 (who considers himself N) thinks person #2 is S also because of his rigidity when it comes to reacting to other people's ideas. But I always saw person #2 to be too theoretically-minded to be S. He's not much interested in material things, although he's excellent at managing finances. In support of Phaedrus's guess of INTj, he does have a certain obsessiveness with health. But prior to knowing about Socionics, at least, I thought his T must be Te....now I'm not sure.

    Rainbow: Entp
    You're the only person who thinks he could be a P. Any insights as to how he could be?

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    PS - The one thing about Person #2 that I could see would support ESTj is that most portrayals of Sherlock Holmes remind me of him....the confidence, the powers of observation, the absolute quality of his knowledge.

    However, I was always perplexed as to how Sherlock Holmes is considered to be an S type. It seemed to me that Holmes, being a fictional character, has unrealistically high levels of both N and S. However, Person #2 is real.

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    This is purely and simply ENTj, in fact I can relate to this description word for word.
    ENTj - intuitive subtype - 8w9, sp/sx

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    Why do you think he's an S type?
    Well, first, what is clear to me is that he's dominant. He seems to trust - and be confident in - information and his abilty to master it; his strongest area is finding, collecting and using information, not having original ideas ( ) or putting systems together ( ). Also, he makes a very clear impression of being a Socionics rational, so EXTj. That is clear in my mind with base on the available information.

    As for S vs N, despite his interest in "esoteric" stuff he seems to be more detail-oriented and with a stronger than ENTjs, who have as hidden agenda.

    And this bit:

    he will read the entire book from beginning to end, in one sitting, and with absolute thoroughness.
    Well I can do that as well, but only if I'm in a hurry; the need to do that in one sitting is more an ESTj thing, due to PoLR.

    But again, most of that description seems to be -related; we should get more information - perhaps with base on Reinin dichotomies - to decide between ENTj and ESTj.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    he will read the entire book from beginning to end, in one sitting, and with absolute thoroughness.
    Well I can do that as well, but only if I'm in a hurry; the need to do that in one sitting is more an ESTj thing, due to PoLR.
    I have seen exactly that behaviour many times in a real life ENTj, who believes that he is an INTj. But he is also not that easy to distinguish from an ESTj. That book thing is probably not unique to just one type. I think I have done it myself a few times too.

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    I'm not that good with Reinin dichotomies, but I'm pretty sure he would be a narrator type.

    I have a certain stereotype of ESTjs, but it may not be accurate for Socionics...maybe more accurate for MBTI-ESTJs. I think of an ESTj as the kind of person who be willing to do whatever it takes to become vice president of a bank, with an interest in money, status, and providing well for a family. Person #2 is totally the opposite...very internally driven, focuses only on topics he's interested in, looks down on people whom he perceives as "selling out" or "only interested in making money," and not much interested in traditional responsibilities. Also, although he's disciplined and organized, he's not neat...doesn't like to waste time with things he considers unimportant like cleaning up or mowing the lawn. Of course, that may all be irrelevant to Socionics, but that's the image I have in my mind, anyhow.

    It is possible that when I describe people, they come out seeming a little more S because I'm describing them; perhaps if an S person were doing the describing, that person would notice various ways in which the subject is impractical, quirky, etc., that I wouldn't even notice. But of course, no lens is perfect.

    One thing I should mention about both person #1 and #2: Before I knew of Socionics, I was convinced that both of them were + , which in Socionics would be INTp. But that doesn't fit their strongly rational-type quality. So, I think I'm going to side with the people who say ENTj, unless we alter Socionics to allow that the logical subtype of INTp could be J (which would imply that subtypes have a much greater role than commonly accepted in Socionics). The argument for that is that both of these people seem to have such a deep-seated, unshakable core of belief that I attributed to dominant ...but that way of seeing things may not be so in Socionics...Certainly, the idea of a logical subtype of INTp that's so much to the T side as to make the person behave as a rational type would be controversial.

    The other thought I had: Could a person be "an ESTj of INTjs" or "an ESTj of INTps," etc.? In other words, among a bunch of people who are, say, INTj, some of them in comparison to the rest of them might be ENFp, ESTj, ISFp, or virtually any type...but outside that group, still appear as an INTj to the rest of the world. I know that thought is way way way outside of how Socionics is supposed to go....I just thought I'd mention it.

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    One thing I should mention about both person #1 and #2: Before I knew of Socionics, I was convinced that both of them were + , which in Socionics would be INTp. But that doesn't fit their strongly rational-type quality. So, I think I'm going to side with the people who say ENTj, unless we alter Socionics to allow that the logical subtype of INTp could be J (which would imply that subtypes have a much greater role than commonly accepted in Socionics). The argument for that is that both of these people seem to have such a deep-seated, unshakable core of belief that I attributed to dominant ...but that way of seeing things may not be so in Socionics...Certainly, the idea of a logical subtype of INTp that's so much to the T side as to make the person behave as a rational type would be controversial.
    If you initially believed that they were both INTps, which probably means that you thought that both of them were INTJs in the MBTI model, then why can't you believe that they are INTjs? If you had a good reason to believe that they were INTJs, you still have a good reason to believe that they are INTjs. Your understanding of what the function might be a more uncertain foundation than your understanding of the INTJ type in the MBTI model.

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    If you initially believed that they were both INTps, which probably means that you thought that both of them were INTJs in the MBTI model, then why can't you believe that they are INTjs? If you had a good reason to believe that they were INTJs, you still have a good reason to believe that they are INTjs. Your understanding of what the function might be a more uncertain foundation than your understanding of the INTJ type in the MBTI model.
    Very good point. I was kind of hoping that people would say INTj for person #2. I even described certain things in ways that would help someone come to the conclusion of INTj. But everyone jumped on the idea that he must have ...for much the same reason that I think he has too. I thought Expat's explanation was good. And Expat ought to know better than most people what looks like.

    If the Socionics definitions are such that what I was describing was really , then those definitions are so counter-intuitive, so far from what people who've thought about this think they should be, that one must question if the definitions are even worthwhile. Of course, it could be that everyone who answered is just incorrect. But I think people's analysis of is correct. The two people I described are probably a certain subtype of ENTj (or ExTj) in Socionics, even if they're not ENTJ in MBTI; they don't have to map in such a straightforward way as INTJ=INTj, etc.

    That said, what do you think? Do you think my description sounds like someone whose main thinking function is rather ?

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    PS...That said, I'm willing to entertain the idea that person #2 is INTj....that, in the spirit of Socionics (as vs. MBTI), takes on a quality that, in an introverted type, appears almost like because of its strong, rigid, uncompromising quality. I'm willing to consider that that's the correct understanding....but then other people here will have to reconsider how they see it too.

    Maybe to ENTj, INTjs look almost like ESTj. That is, maybe the more convoluted quality of looks like "detail" to an ENTj, and so the ENTj sees that as .

    I remember that Person #1 (in the context of MBTI) said something like that he thought Person #2 is ESTJ. Person #2 said something to the effect that Jungian typology is absurd because there's no way you can boil down everybody into just 16 types.

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    Just so you know, not many INTjs are strong, rigid, and unyielding.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    Reminds me of myself in 6 months.
    asd

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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic
    Just so you know, not many INTjs are strong, rigid, and unyielding.
    lol! Exactly.

    I'm not going to identify this person via functions, but by identifying obervable behavior like the "socionics type assistant" would do. Ironically, by using this method that is more similar to MBTI, the socionics descriptions always end up as better descriptions of a person's behavior than the MBTI ones

    This person is considered brilliant by most people, although to himself he never seems to do well enough. Probably the most salient feature in his personality is his uncompromising quality. He will never compromise on principle, or on his agenda.
    This seems to indicate a perfectionnistic streak, plus an unwillingness to let down a principle, charateristic of xxTJ types.

    His lack of compromise has been known to bend wills. Anyone who opposes his will eventually "blinks" and gives in. It is as if he charted a course for his life, and decided never to permit anything to stand in the way.
    This passage hints on a certain assertiveness he has. Assertiveness = E + T, so, combined with the previous, that gives us ExTJ.

    He appears very outgoing, engaging, and charming, being ready with stories about his many experiences. However, he creates the impression that there's more behind the surface that he doesn’t reveal.
    Engaging, outgoing, charming... these adjectives definitely characterize an extravert. More behind the surface is typical of the impression N types give. ENTJ.

    He quickly creates the appearance of having mastered every subject with a certain thoroughness. Hence, he can easily carry on a conversation with people from many walks of life and speak of that person's topic with a certain sense of authority. However, he never tries to inflate the impression of his knowledge; if he doesn’t know something, he won’t pretend that he does.
    => This screams NT.

    Despite his breadth of knowledge and seemingly endless abilities, he remains focused and dedicated in his chosen scientific field. He works tirelessly, day and night, on highly obscure problems in very esoteric specialties, hoping to make some contribution, no matter how small.
    xNTJ. Never heard of an S working in "esoteric" subjects.

    As a teacher, he can be very difficult; he is extraordinarily demanding, and he has a tendency to expect people to make intuitive leaps so as to follow what he’s saying. However, through practice, he has learned to explain things more methodically for people to understand. When explaining something, he has a certain sense of excitement, as if he’s letting you in on some secret, something that only very smart people are allowed to know.
    ENTJ. I can't imagine an INTJ getting "excited" about something publically. Getting excited about things is charateristic of extraverted people.

    He is very skeptical of the ideas of people who seem to him uninformed. He deeply believes that one shouldn’t say anything about something one doesn’t know much about. He is very direct in his attacks if someone says something out of ignorance. He is not very accepting of what he considers wild speculation. On the other hand, if someone with some knowledge proposes an idea, he will search his mind to see if it's possible. When searching his mind, he sort of 'goes into himself' and creates the impression that he's going through a file cabinet inside there and coming up with the answer. When he has the answer, it's absolute: "No, that it isn’t possible, because XYZ."
    xxTJ

    One thing that's extraordinary about him is his thoroughness and discipline. Whereas other people, in learning a new topic from a reference book, would focus on just getting a few key details to be able to perform a given job, he will read the entire book from beginning to end, in one sitting, and with absolute thoroughness.
    xxxJ

    He strongly believes in the importance of 'hardening' oneself; thus, he admires qualities such as physical courage, extreme endurance activities, and "roughing it." At times, he can be authoritarian and commanding; he feels comfortable telling people to do, and he won’t take no for an answer.
    ExTJ

    Because of his brilliance and hard work, he's the natural leader in any organization, and used to find himself in leadership positions, but seems to have "outgrown" the tendency to be involved in anything outside his chosen path.
    xxTJ

    => Based on the information you gave us, the most probable type is ENTJ/ENTj.
    ENTj - intuitive subtype - 8w9, sp/sx

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    I was kind of hoping that people would say INTj for person #2. I even described certain things in ways that would help someone come to the conclusion of INTj.
    Do you want to have an objective opinion on this person's type or confirm the hypothesis you have already made yourself by presenting facts compatible with it? This is a completely biased way of proceeding.
    ENTj - intuitive subtype - 8w9, sp/sx

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    I agree with Eidos, and it's also a rather text-book case of ENTj, imho. There is no way in hell that the person described is an introvert.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    I disagree, he's more like an ESTj.
    No way!

    He works tirelessly, day and night, on highly obscure problems in very esoteric specialties, hoping to make some contribution, no matter how small.
    he is extraordinarily demanding, and he has a tendency to expect people to make intuitive leaps so as to follow what he’s saying. However, through practice, he has learned to explain things more methodically for people to understand. When explaining something, he has a certain sense of excitement, as if he’s letting you in on some secret, something that only very smart people are allowed to know.

    The only thing that points towards ESTj is that he reads the entire book before doing anything.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    The only thing that points towards ESTj is that he reads the entire book before doing anything.
    Yes, that is the main thing that made me think ESTj, since Jonathan phrased it in such a way that made it sound like his standard way of doing things, which to me suggested weak . But having read the further details provided by Jonathan, I agree that he's more likely an ENTj.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    I was kind of hoping that people would say INTj for person #2. I even described certain things in ways that would help someone come to the conclusion of INTj.
    Just to drive home the point that Eidos made -- this is really not the way to lead to a proper typing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    It is possible that when I describe people, they come out seeming a little more S because I'm describing them; perhaps if an S person were doing the describing, that person would notice various ways in which the subject is impractical, quirky, etc., that I wouldn't even notice. But of course, no lens is perfect.
    This sort of thing is unavoidable, but should remain unintentional.

    Regarding a socionics INTj, not only what MysticSonic said, but to me what your description displayed was not .
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    The most objective way to identify someone is list adjectives describing that person then use the socionics assistant turbo. This minimizes biases. Intuition can bias collection of facts in favor of a hypothesis we have already formed ourselves. We are not looking at reality anymore, but shaping reality according to our beliefs.

    In this case:

    1)
    Brilliant
    Uncompromosing
    Principled
    Willfull
    Decisive
    Outgoing
    Engaging
    Charming
    Storytelling
    Deep
    Thorough
    Mastering
    Conversationalist
    Intellectually honest
    Focused
    Scientific
    Hard worker
    Interested in esoteric subjects
    Demanding
    Intuitive
    Excitable
    Skeptical
    Open to possibilities
    Thoughtful
    Disciplined
    Tough
    Commanding
    Leader

    2) http://www.socionics.com/sta/sta_turbo.html

    3) => ENTJ
    ENTj - intuitive subtype - 8w9, sp/sx

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    I even described certain things in ways that would help someone come to the conclusion of INTj.
    Yes, that made me somewhat suspicious. Many of the things you said about him looked like they were almost copied from the INTj profile at SG's site. That was what I had in mind when I said that there was very much INTj in the description of person #2.

    The main thing that pointed in another direction was those parts that had to do with his outgoingness.

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    Definate somewhere.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    I even described certain things in ways that would help someone come to the conclusion of INTj.
    I think the clumsy way I said that confused people. I definitely was doing my best to describe the person as I saw him without thinking about type, but naturally, it's hard to be completely unbiased by conceptions of type. Hence, after the fact, I realized that some the words I chose may have been influenced by a hypothesis of INTj. That's what I meant to say.

    I pointed this out after there was a clear consensus of ExTj. By pointing out a slight bias towards , the case for is that much stronger, because people still saw even if I felt that I was slightly biased towards .

    I did not copy the description from SG's site. Everything I wrote is how Person #2 actually behaves. It's just not possible to be 100% objective, because in choosing what I focus on, there's always going to be some bias.

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    MysticSonic:Just so you know, not many INTjs are strong, rigid, and unyielding.
    I wouldn't think so from either, but consider http://www.socioniko.net/en/1.1.types/index-type.html:

    This is a type of a revolutionary or a political conspirator. In a conflict situation he usually organizes a committee to punish the offender. ... He appears extremely uncompromising, often looks down with a piercing look from under his philosopher’s forehead. He toughens himself, training for the cold, starvation, losses and disapproval of others. The only aspect where he willingly concedes to his partner is the issue of dressing, taste and routine chores.
    Sounds pretty strong, rigid, and unyielding to me.

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    By the way, as I'm sure people will notice, what I just quoted is precisely the passage that I realized I was sounding like when I wrote the description.

    But the fact is, Person #2 is precisely that way. He used to say that my love of comfort and avoidance of pain would be a big disadvantage if people were shooting at me and I had to run even though I was very tired. He used to eat horseraddish out of the bottle. He's like that.

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