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Thread: Joseph Campbell

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    Default Joseph Campbell








    Quotes:
    "A hero is someone who has given his or her life to something bigger than oneself."

    "Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble."

    "I don't believe people are looking for the meaning of life as much as they are looking for the experience of being alive."

    "The goal of life is to make your heartbeat match the beat of the universe, to match your nature with Nature."

    "We must let go of the life we have planned, so as to accept the one that is waiting for us."

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    IEI-Fe of the splendidly brilliant and ingenious variety.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    haha, so

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    Actually, watching him more, I'm considering EIE.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    I think that Ni-ego is obvious, as the interpretation of subjective patterns in storytelling is one of his major motifs.
    "Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
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    Ni Role.

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    I dunno, he seems rational.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Yeah, he does seem rational.

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    Well he's just heavier than the ILIs I've encountered, not as removed. He's direct in communicating his ideas in a manner that IEIs aren't, but his facial expressions are fairly variable, and he does project internal energy rather directly and fairly consistently for an Fe PoLR. I'm beginning to consider LIE-Ni, perhaps 6w5 sx/so.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    He's direct in communicating his ideas in a manner that IEIs aren't,
    He also seems rather assuming, in the rational sense of the word.

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    INFp
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Hmm, doesn't strike me as particularly heavy. He is direct and explicit in his communication in a way I see indicative of . The variability in facial expressions would make sense for any Dynamic (EJ or IP) type; further, it's not at all unusual to see an IXTp come across more engaging when conversing on a subject of interest (not to mention, the stereotype of IXTps as being emotionally stoic is vastly played out).

    Here's a bunch of interesting quotes by him that I've had archived. Most of these distinctly resonates with me as being ego w/ HA; an easy case can be made for DS as well. Rejection of and is also a recurring theme:

    [INDENT]“People say that what we’re all seeking is a meaning for life. I don’t think that’s what we’re really seeking. I think that what we’re seeking is an experience of being alive, so that our life experiences on the purely physical plane will have resonances within our own innermost being and reality, so that we actually feel the rapture of being alive. That’s what it’s all finally about, and that’s what these clues help us to find within ourselves.” (/)
    See, this strikes me as distinctly more Fe than Fi: the "experience of being" as an active theme, rather than something that defines us internally.

    “There’s no meaning. What’s the meaning of the universe? What’s the meaning of a flea? It’s just there. That’s it. And your own meaning is that you’re there. We’re so engaged in doing things to achieve purposes of outer value that we forget the inner value, the rapture that is associated with being alive, is what it’s all about.” (/)
    I see mostly Se/Ni there.

    “[Marriage is] primarily a spiritual exercise, and the society is supposed to help us have that realization. Man should not be in the service of society, society should be in the service of man. When man is in the service of society, you have a monster state, and that’s what is threatening the world at this minute.” ()
    I see Se and Ni again; marriage doesn't make it Fi, and an "altered perspective" on what marriage truly is, in terms of reconstructing traditional viewpoints, points to Fe>Fi, IMO.

    “When a judge walks into the room, and everybody stands up, you’re not standing up to that guy, you’re standing up to the robe he’s wearing and the role that he’s going to play. What makes him worthy of that role is his integrity, as a representative of the principles of that role, and not some group of prejudices of his own. So what you’re standing up to is a mythological character. I imagine some kings and queens are the most stupid, absurd, banal people you could run into, probably interested only in horses and women, you know. But you’re not responding to them as personalities, you’re responding to them in their mythological roles. When someone becomes a judge, or President of the United States, the man is no longer that man, he’s the representative of an eternal office; he has to sacrifice his personal desires and even life possibilities to the role that he now signifies.” (/anti-)
    Seems more anti-Fi to me, with preference for Fe (focusing on how people "become the role") with Ni.

    “Joining the army, putting on a uniform, is another [ritual]. You’re giving up your personal life and accepting a socially determined manner of life in the service of the society of which you are a member. This is why I think it is obscene to judge people in terms of civil law for performances that they are rendered in time of war. They were acting not as individuals, they were acting as agents of something above them and to which they had by dedication given themselves. To judge them as though they were individual human beings is totally improper.” ()
    Sounds like an Aristocratic perspective, if you ask me. This theme of interpreting so much as "ritual" and so forth is drastically Beta.

    “On this immediate level of life and structure, myths offer life models. But the models have to be appropriate to the time in which you are living, and our time has changed so fast that what was proper fifty years ago is not proper today. The virtues of the past are the vices of today. And many of what were thought to be the vices of the past are the necessities of today. The moral order has to catch up with the moral necessities of actual life in time, here and now. And that is what we are not doing. The old-time religion belongs to another age, another people, another set of human values, another universe. By going back your throw yourself out of sync with history. Our kids lose their faith in the religions that were taught to them, and they go inside.” (/)
    I see Ni and Ti in the first sentence. Sounds like classic Beta: changing the spiritual "models" that we live our lives by. I see some emphasis on Fi, but its mostly disdainful.

    “I walk off Fifty-first Street and Fifth Avenue into St. Patrick’s Cathedral. I’ve left a very busy city and one of the most economically inspired cities on the planet. I walk into that cathedral, and everything around me speaks of spiritual mysteries. The mystery of the cross, what’s that all about there? The stained glass windows, which bring another atmosphere in. My consciousness has been brought up onto another level altogether, and I am on a different platform. And then I walk out, and I’m back on the level of the street again. Now, can I hold something from the cathedral consciousness? Certain prayers or meditations are designed to hold your consciousness on that level instead of letting it drop down here all the way. And then what you can finally do is to recognize that this is simply a lower level of that higher consciousness. The mystery that is expressed there is operating in the field of your money, for example. All money is congealed energy. I think that that’s the clue to how to transform your consciousness.” (/)
    Sounds like Ni and Fe to me. What's Te about that?

    “A god is a personification of a motivating power of a value system that functions in human life and in the universe—the powers of your own body and of nature. The myths are metaphorical of spiritual potentiality in the human being, and the same powers that animate our life animate the life of the world.” (/)
    "The same powers that animate our life animate the world." Classic Ti; anti-Fi, if you ask me. Fi types revolt at this kind of statement, IME.

    “Heaven and hell are within us, and all the gods are within us. This is the great realization of the Upanishads of India in the ninth century BC. All the gods, all the heavens, all the worlds, are within us. They are magnified dreams, and dreams are manifestations in image form of the energies of the body in conflict with each other. That is what myth is. Myth is a manifestation in symbolic images, in metaphorical images, of the energies of the organs of the body in conflict with each other. This organ wants this, that organ wants that. The brain is one of the organs.” (/)
    Why is that Te? Just because its a reification of what is often taken to be formless?

    “Original experience has not been interpreted for you, and so you’ve got to work out your life for yourself. Either you can take it or you can’t. You don’t have to go far off the interpreted path to find yourself in very difficult situations. The courage to face the trials and to bring a whole new experience for other people to experience—that is the hero’s deed.” (/)
    Ni/Se: forming ones own inner world, interpreting raw experience into one's own integrated perspective.

    “The ultimate mystery of being is beyond all categories of thought.” (anti-)
    No, anti-logic. Why anti-Ti?

    “ ...The idea of the supernatural as being something over and above the natural is a killing idea. In the Middle Ages this was the idea that finally turned that world into something like a wasteland, a land where people were living inauthentic lives, never doing a thing they truly wanted to because the supernatural laws required them to live as directed by their clergy. In a wasteland, people are fulfilling purposes that are not properly theirs but have been put upon them as inescapable laws. This is a killer.” (anti-)
    Why is that anti-Ti? Religion assuming that God is unnatural is Ti? It's just a faulty belief. I see Ni focus, and a particularly Beta sentiment, in the idea of "living inauthentic lives," ie at the chains of "the machine;" Gammas tend to be more nonchalant or practically minded about such things.

    “Remember the last line [of Babbitt]? "I have never done the thing that I wanted to in all my life." That is a man who never followed his bliss. Well, I actually heard that line when I was teaching at Sarah Lawrence. Before I was married, I used to eat out in the restaurants of town for my lunch and dinners. Thursday night was the maid's night off in Bronxville, so that many of the families were out in restaurants. One fine evening I was in my favorite restaurant there, and at the next table there was a father, a mother, and a scrawny boy about twelve years old. The father said to the boy, "Drink your tomato juice."And the boy said, "I don't want to." Then the father, with a louder voice, said, "Drink your tomato juice." And the mother said, "Don't make him do what he doesn't want to do." The father looked at her and said, "He can't go through life doing what he wants to do. If he does only what he wants to do, he'll be dead. Look at me. I've never done a thing I wanted to in all my life."And I thought, "My God, there's Babbitt incarnate!" That's the man who never followed his bliss. You may have a success in life, but then just think of it-what kind of life was it? What good was it-you've never done the thing you wanted to do in all your life. I always tell my students, go where your body and soul want to go. When you have the feeling, then stay with it, and don't let anyone throw you off.” ()
    Doing what you want to do is Fi? Don't give me this crap. It sounds more Se, scorning the man's curbing of the child's impulses and willpower.

    CAMPBELL: Darth Vader has not developed his own humanity. He's a robot. He's a bureaucrat, living not in terms of himself but in terms of an imposed system. This is the threat to our lives that we all face today. Is the system going to flatten you out and deny you your humanity, or are you going to be able to make use of the system to the attainment of human purposes? How do you relate to the system so that you are not compulsively serving it? It doesn't help to try to change it to accord with your system of thought. The momentum of history behind it is too great for anything really significant to evolve from that kind of action. The thing to do is learn to live in your period of history as a human being. That's something else, and it can be done.
    MOYERS: By doing what?
    CAMPBELL: By holding to your own ideals for yourself and, like Luke Skywalker, rejecting the system's impersonal claims upon you. (anti-)
    "The System" is not Ti, Ashton. In fact, perception of "The System," and seeing it as a threat to one's individuality, is a classic Ti assessment: being invested in the "logic" that our lives are run by, and interpreting what is really an eternally shifting, largely unplanned, self-correcting morass of business and government and technology and living conditions, as one interconnected "field" of systematic functioning, is a classic example of Ti interpreting Te conditions.

    “The influence of a vital person vitalizes, there's no doubt about it. The world without spirit is a wasteland. People have the notion of saving the world by shifting things around, changing the rules, and who's on top, and so forth. No, no! Any world is a valid world if it's alive. The thing to do is to bring life to it, and the only way to do that is to find in your own case where the life is and become alive yourself.” (/anti-)
    I see more anti-Te in this: simply focusing on changing the way things function disregards the value of personal experience and personal values.

    “We are having experiences all the time which may on occasion render some sense of this, a little intuition of where your bliss is. Grab it. No one can tell you what it is going to be. You have to learn to recognize your own depth.All the time. It is miraculous. I even have a superstition that has grown on me as the result of invisible hands coming all the time-namely, that if you do follow your bliss you put yourself on a kind of track that has been there all the while, waiting for you, and the life that you ought to be living is the one you are living. When you can see that, you begin to meet people who are in the field of your bliss, and they open the doors to you. I say, follow your bliss and don't be afraid, and doors will open where you didn't know they were going to be.” (/)
    I see Ni, mostly. Where do you see Fi?

    “Schopenhauer, in his splendid essay called ‘On an Apparent Intention in the Fate of the Individual,’ points out that when you reach an advanced age and look back over your lifetime, it can seem to have had a consistent order and plan, as though composed by some novelist. Events that when they occurred had seemed accidental and of little moment have turned out to have been indispensable factors in the composition of a consistent plot. So who composed that plot? Schopenhauer suggests that just as your dreams are composed by an aspect of yourself of which your consciousness is unaware, so, too, your whole life is composed by the will within you. And just as people whom you will have met apparently by mere chance become leading agents in the structuring of your life, so, too, will you have served unknowingly as an agent, giving meaning to the lives of others. The whole thing gears together like one big symphony, with everything unconsciously structuring everything else. And Schopenhauer concludes that it is as though our lives were the features of the one great dream of a single dreamer in which all the dream characters dream, too; so that everything links to everything else, moved by the one will to life which is the universal will in nature […] Everything arises in mutual relation to everything else, so you can’t blame anybody for anything. It is even as though there were a single intention behind it all, which always makes some kind of sense, though none of us knows what the sense might be, or has lived the life that he quite intended.” (//)
    I see mostly Ni+Fe there: focusing on how people change each other in interaction and how the influences of different people affect the course of our lives.

    You need to quit this fucking monkey business of just putting functions at the end of quotes, and actually say what you're thinking. This is just disingenuous, presumptuous, and potentially manipulative by way of confirmation bias. And it doesn't put your ideas at risk, which is why I think you do it.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    You're looking too much at the ideas being said, not how they were said (or the fact that they were said at all). Of course an valuer could hold similar beliefs in many of the same things he states; that ain't exactly type related (it's more related to intelligence/awareness IMO). The overriding point here is the style in which he speaks of them; he's relatively "dry" and straightforward, he doesn't embellish with superfluous faggy prose like β-NFs tend to, etc.
    Right, because all Beta NFs use flowery language I wish you could hear some of my conversations outlining personal philosophy.


    Um, I think you're looking at this in an way. How is one's being not something internal?
    I didn't say it wasn't internal; I said that Campbell outlines it as something that is lived out actively, and experienced actively, rather than something that is held like a precious little nugget. Dynamic>Static ethics.

    Besides that, where do Betas talk about this? In my experience Betas tend to regard this sort of thing as something of contempt to speak about, even if they're quite aware of it's truth.
    This is the kind of thing I talk about all the time. It's literally the subject matter of my personal thought quest in life, and he approaches and explains it in a manner that is identical to my own. I think the Beta NFs you've been reading just have low IQs and/or are too self-absorbed to think realistically about their situations.

    I suspect this is like what happened in that as Resonance thread, when Galen mentioned that part of Jung's description as being very relevant to his own experience. And you were like, "fuck nah, I do that too!" And then you described it, and it was flat out obvious, even to you, as not being the same thing.
    I spoke of one very particular kind of resonance there, that wasn't what Galen described. Doesn't mean I don't relate to this.

    Yes. But the perspective is also too matter-of-fact to indicate /.
    Why can't Fe/Ti types be matter of fact? Nick used to get pissed off at me all the time for being too literal in my elucidations of personal perspective.


    Of course the subject of 'marriage' isn't . Not sure what you mean about "reconstructing traditional viewpoints"… I've never met a person who didn't view marriage in the way he described. The difference being that valuers tend not to talk about such things.
    Says who...?


    You're the one agreed with Jung's depiction of as being an embrace of roles, so I don't see how this is anti-
    No, I agreed with it being an awareness of roles. That's what functions dictate: awareness.

    Campbell's a bit disparaging of 'roles' (and references that character/integrity should take priority). Naturally, egos can and usually are aware of the phenomenon of 'roles' too—but they're more likely to be "yeah, so what?" about it, and rather tend to focus on utilizing it as an effective means to an end. Why talk about it?
    But he is analyzing the roles, observing them, which is essentially using Fe.

    Emphasizing an understanding of an individual's actions in terms of that person and their situational context is "Aristocratic"? Objectifying the ritual process is β? Haha, news to me.
    No, but if you read his writing, he tends to cast things in the light of their relevance to this natural human theme of ritual. THAT is what's Beta.



    Disdain for ? Not sure where you saw that. He's only saying that the access way to the spiritual realities of life, need to be in sync with the tangible realities of contemporary life. Otherwise you're not communicating anything to anybody.
    Sounds like Object-Ethics to me.



    Find me an ego who would ever talk about it so mechanically.
    Me.


    It's a statement most Betas would probably find vomit-inducing. The motivating power of a value system? The spiritual potentialities of life? βs don't talk like that.
    Are you kidding? That's what Betas are ALL ABOUT, even if it is sometimes largely subconscious. Watch more videos on the Third Reich.


    Somewhat. He's explaining a process in a more explicit and mechanical way. Not much β-NF fluff going on.
    But his subject matter is largely Ni+Fe related. You presume that Betas would pollute it with fluff.

    Ugh. Everyone integrates experience into their own personal perspective FFS. That's just being human. Once again, you are entirely missing the point.
    Then enlighten me, o enlightened one.

    usually likes systematic order and categorization. Most valuers don't utter such things.
    I hardly think that expressing personal value as a matter of direct experience indicates a quadra value.

    Beta is usually more about populism and manipulating mass emotion through ideology (politics, religion, etc.) to serve their own ends. Which is exactly what Campbell is against here, seeing ideology as a falsehood which perverts individual imperative in life. Betas OTOH tend see this as a natural condition of life to be endured and embraced, even to the extent of "if I don't do it, someone else will, so it might as well be me."
    Whence springs this assumption that Betas are inherently or "all about the masses?" All I see is Campbell casting "ideology," which IS a universal human trait, in the mold of embracing personal archetypes.


    Again that wasn't the point :/
    Then get off your fucking high horse and explain yourself.

    Reference what I said about Betas using ideology as a means to an end. It's the same shit here. If you haven't noticed, aristocratic quadras on the whole usually don't bitch about "The System" in and of itself. Alphas/Gammas do most of the complaining in this respect. Beta only gets pissy about it when it's not their system.
    I bitch about the system all the time, lol; it's practically a subtext to all of my thoughts. I think Deltas are pretty much the only ones who don't, and Alphas and Gammas tend to at least have some compromise with it, even if they objectify it; Alphas sort of resignedly participate, whereas Gammas tend to rationalize that "it is what it is" and maintain a sort of personal distance from it. IME Betas are the most explicitly for or against the system, and all Campbell is complaining about is how the system impinges upon the self and the pursuit of individual actualization.

    He's saying that a change in external conditions doesn't necessarily help alter one's internal conditions.
    I don't see how that's not an anti-Te sentiment.

    It's another one of those things valuers don't seem to talk about much. I've no doubt they have experiences of the same. But I've only seen valuers talk at length about it.
    Well he is rather more casually sentimental about it than most Betas would be, that's fair enough, but that in and of itself resonates with my own attitude towards the subject, and I tend to think it's more a matter of intelligence and holding the proper perspective on such things, rather than one of quadra values.


    I saw it more as illustrating implicit emergence in the order of life. Instead of force-fitting things and being fatalistic like Beta.
    Well it seems to me that it's an emergence of the impact people have upon each other. That's more Fe.


    No, I just hate having to write out a bunch of explanation. Having to clarify things and be concise about it takes effort.
    If you're posts here are intended as anything more than wankery, you should have the patience to explain yourself.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    You're looking too much at the ideas being said, not how they were said (or the fact that they were said at all). Of course an valuer could hold similar beliefs in many of the same things he states; that ain't exactly type related (it's more related to intelligence/awareness IMO). The overriding point here is the style in which he speaks of them; he's relatively "dry" and straightforward, he doesn't embellish with superfluous faggy prose like β-NFs tend to, etc.
    check your premises. relatively few intelligent beta NFs (btw what is the key code for those quadra letters?) speak in purely florid terms, unless the purpose is some explication of poetic rhythm.

    How is one's being not something internal?

    Besides that, where do Betas talk about this? In my experience Betas tend to regard this sort of thing as something of contempt to speak about, even if they're quite aware of its truth.
    I don't know about contempt. I definitely regard a being as something internal, but one which is inherently connected via every external thing, i.e. transcendent subjectivity. this aligns with the objective pulse that manifests in attitudes combined with the subjective abstractions implied in an pov.

    You're the one who agreed with Jung's depiction of as being an embrace of roles, so I don't see how this is anti-; Campbell's a bit disparaging of 'roles' (and references that character/integrity should take priority). Naturally, egos can and usually are aware of the phenomenon of 'roles' too—but they're more likely to be "yeah, so what?" about it, and rather tend to focus on utilizing it as an effective means to an end. Why talk about it? Which I see as having something to do with why ENFj supervises INTp—both tend to be equally aware of this reality, but the former embraces it and so acquires a leverage of effective understanding, while the other rejects it and thus develops a certain vulnerability.
    no, / is emphatically focused on the nuances of social roles that derive from a higher order; beta especially plays into this, hence the collective unconscious, an idea cultivated by someone you type Ni-INFp. I don't think / types assess roles in the same way, as each person occupies their own role, based on the composite of their internal qualities, which operates in a fluid, mechanical state of expansion/growth. / types see the social roles as recursive, the structure implicit.

    Emphasizing an understanding of an individual's actions in terms of that person and their situational context is "Aristocratic"? Objectifying the ritual process is β? Haha, news to me.
    yeah, actually it has some truth to it. is double abstract fields – you think that wouldn't lead to a strict, idealistic purification of core principles and attitudes that would end up shaping the context behind an individual's behavior? you need to interact with more ideologically-driven beta groups, if you really believe this. the empathic ones will literally cast a specific energy over you the second you enter the room.

    It's a statement most Betas would probably find vomit-inducing. The motivating power of a value system? The spiritual potentialities of life? βs don't talk like that.
    bullshit. it may not be some delta campfire dance where everyone toots their flute in slightly varied ways while staying in objective sync, but yeah, value systems are typically seen as vital personal tools for betas. Look at Ayn Rand for proof, she just outlined it in an incredibly manner. also, read this post before you just write off what I'm saying.

    usually likes systematic order and categorization. Most valuers don't utter such things, though I think they can be perfectly well-aware of them.
    yeah, except Da System is completely subjective, and any objective system is subserved to the values embedded in the former. this is what gilly was getting at, in stating that -valuers (deltas to a much higher degree) are better able to make a compromise with existing systems, based on the sheer efficacy of their operation.

    Beta is usually more about populism and manipulating mass emotion through ideology (politics, religion, etc.) to serve their own ends. Which is exactly what Campbell is against here, seeing ideology as a falsehood which perverts individual imperative in life. Betas OTOH tend see this as a natural condition of life to be endured and embraced, even to the extent of "if I don't do it, someone else will, so it might as well be me."
    no, what you are describing are beta j-sub rationals gone off the deep-end within an amorphous, totalitarian delta state. you're being way too absolutist in these assessments, fwiw. I would never even consider that some mass political appeal was the true way for an ideological revolution; the impregnation of the idea would have to occur naturally within individual experience. I do agree that betas will sometimes resign themselves in preparation for a revolt, but this is hardly the natural quadra attitude.

    Reference what I said about Betas using ideology as a means to an end; it's the same shit here. If you haven't noticed, Aristocratic quadras on the whole usually don't bitch about "The System" in and of itself. Alphas/Gammas do most of the complaining in this respect. Beta only gets pissy about it when it's not their system.
    actually, beta frustration stems from not being able to follow their own system without interference (esp among p-subs, who aren't as collectively-attuned). it's only when the limitations becoming gravely stagnant, that a reverse imposition of a system becomes necessary.

    He's saying that a change in external conditions doesn't necessarily help alter one's internal conditions. Usually Betas will primarily focus on changing outer conditions as a means to alter a person's inner conditions, regard them as more essentially mutable.
    that makes no sense. the focus in betas is driven from a purely subjective pov, and always seeks to either solidify or redefine the inner landscape. that's why so many betas are very protective of, and hesitant to share, their ideologies, because they don't want objective conditions (essentially normative operation) to stifle the personal expression.

    I saw it more as illustrating implicit emergence in the order of life. Instead of force-fitting things and being fatalistic like Beta.
    bs! I rarely ever act on my fatalistic inclinations, even if I see things moving in that direction; there's no point in becoming a contradiction to destroy another.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    No, I agreed with it being an awareness of roles. That's what functions dictate: awareness.

    But he is analyzing the roles, observing them, which is essentially using Fe.
    I am using Fe 24/7?

    No, but seriously. I've no idea what Campbell's type is, and I don't really agree with some points Ashton makes about Te/Fi in these quotes, but I simply don't get why people keep repeating roles or roleplaying is Fe. Fe actors might be better because of control over emotional expression or something, but it doesn't make roles as a concept, or roleplaying as a mindset in any way related to it. It's actually one of the most accurate things I could say of Ni-dominants - and indeed it's often mentioned in IEI descriptions, yet it's supposedly Fe and not Ni. I just wish that someone would explain it for once.

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    Well I think that type of analysis is generally Ni, but when it's applied to people and how they interact, it's involving ethics.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    So someone isn't smart enough to understand Fe without learning Socionics first?

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    How's this for flowery Beta NFery:

    "The goal of life is to make your heartbeat match the beat of the universe."

    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    FWIW the people I know who are most attracted to Campbell are Alphas and Betas. George Lucas, SEI incontestably, was a big follower of Campbell's ideas and perhaps the most famous implementer of the archetypes he outlines. I think Campbell's approach of outlining salient/consistent archetypes in mythology and storytelling is primarily an Ni+Ti/Fe exercise.



    PS Ashton How do you do the greek symbols?
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    edits
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    This is the sentiment of an ILI?
    The image of the cosmos must change with the development of the mind and knowledge; otherwise, the mythic statement is lost, and man becomes dissociated from the very basis of his own religious experience. Doubt comes in, and so forth. You must remember: all of the great traditions, and little traditions, in their own time were scientifically correct. That is to say, they were correct in terms of the scientific image of that age. So there must be a scientifically validated image. Now you know what has happened: our scientific field has separated itself from the religious field, or vice-versa. … This divorce this is a fatal thing, and a very unfortunate thing, and a totally unnecessary thing.
    Have at it: Joseph Campbell Quotes.
    "Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
    Johari Box

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    Epic right there.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    FWIW the people I know who are most attracted to Campbell are Alphas and Betas. George Lucas, SEI incontestably, was a big follower of Campbell's ideas and perhaps the most famous implementer of the archetypes he outlines. I think Campbell's approach of outlining salient/consistent archetypes in mythology and storytelling is primarily an Ni+Ti/Fe exercise.



    PS Ashton How do you do the greek symbols?
    My friends who've been seriously into Campbell were ENFJ, INFP, and ENFP. Just an observation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    You do the flowery prose shit a lot IMO.

    This isn't a criticism, only the way β-NFs typically come across to me. I'm not sure how else to convey the quality of what it's like to me. Sometimes this results in quite beautiful and effective writing. The only point was that Campbell's writing lacks something qualitatively about it.
    admittedly, I do need to read a bit more of his writing to conclude (initial impression was Ni-ENFj), but I've still yet to see many gammas speak of spiritual/archetypal matters with the same delicate kind of abstraction. at the very least, I would expect an Ni/Se subtype (though even someone like patton or HST retains the raw, blunt delivery to a degree I have yet to see in him).

    Oh, and the quadra letters thing I did by going into System Preferences > Language & Text. Then click the Text tab. And you can set up automatic substitutions that way. Like I use " \a " to type " α " for instance (make sure to include the surrounding spaces).
    couldn't even find a language and text option lol

    There's the "prose" I was referring to. You guys feel like you're dancing indirectly around the subject instead of saying it more outright, whenever you speak on matters of one's personal being and depictions of your own inner states.
    yeah, that's because there's a shitton of inner states to be woven together; it isn't just subsumed into this ineffable 'whole' that is somehow conveyed via direct, sequential reasoning (not even quite sure what it is you Te/Fi'ers do). it ties back to that thing I said about Fe needing Ti's solidity in relations to be effective.

    Of course they don't see nor treat 'roles' in the same way; my only point to Gilly was that isn't going to be any less aware of them per say than .
    ah, ok. well, what I'm saying is, the / style of thinking better accords with actual ideas dealing with roles, such as the collective unconscious, because of how it naturally segregates things. I can clearly see roleplay going on in deltaville, but it just has a way different twist, like a never-published children's story. kinda creepy.

    Seeing these roles as recursive and implicit features of life, isn't a unique property of /… I mean, if these roles weren't recursive, they wouldn't be archetypes.
    yeah, except the structure necessitates recursive causality in a way that 's doesn't; constantly rotates in on itself, with the same social nuances and chains of events 'guiding the tides' in different yet identical ways. I don't see this attitude with /

    Of course that would shape an individual's behavior. Who ever said otherwise…*?
    the point was, that it will be much more emphatic with betas. especially with j-subs, you can see the individual in a way subsumed under an abstraction; a lifestyle can become a 'purified' expression of said thing, etc.

    This is of course, precisely a problem I have w/ β—that strict, idealistic purification bent. Subjugating one's outlooks to a double-abstract framework like this incurs a certain loss of perspective, which IMO tend to see as somewhat 'dehumanizing' (again, not saying it is that). I feel like βs often go around conceiving people in terms of abstract templates, derived from whatever perceptions of universal patterns they've picked up on over time. And there's something coldly detached and annoying about that, even if I agree that the generalizations they operate by are frequently true.

    And yes, I am obviously well-aware that γ types do this sort of thing too. Aiss has a point about it being something of an thing I think; it's just that in γ it's done through criteria instead of criteria. So that makes it "okay"
    lol... I just always think of the phrase, "...this is necessary" but whatever. the truth is, betas just want their perceptions to have that ideological purity; no event necessarily doesn't have symbolic significance, and anything which has that, obviously ties into a broader pattern. where are my fractal pictures...

    God dammit. I wasn't saying value systems can't be β and I thought I'd made that clear. The contrast is in the way quadras speak of them/implement them.

    Ayn Rand is a prime example of the kind of annoying ideological fascism that a (neurotic?) β mentality inculcates (Murray Rothbard made fun of Objectivism as a form of religious zealotry lol). And this has nothing to do with disagreeing w/ her really; my own beliefs/views are probably about 90% similar. So I recognize the obvious truths in many things she says… but the way she goes about explaining them I find positively distasteful.
    eh, she was a little excessive, but it was kind of cute, like continual face-bashing just for her own thrills. plus, she's too on point to be mad at. and I remember that article lol (worn down husband on the couch...)

    Too much text. What post? It didn't send me to a specific one.
    the one where I replied to marie. had to do with the value/belief shit, but probably irrelevant now.

    What you're talking about is more an attribute of Aristocratic quadras (that means you and δ), not .

    And no shit it's completely subjective, but it has very objective consequences on one's life. Everybody knows this already, as it's a reality they contend with on a daily basis. Some people like to complain about 'the system' more than others, but ultimately most know that all you can do is suck it up and get on with the business of living as best you can within its consequent limitations. Entertaining serious thoughts of revolution is a luxury of the very wealthy and/or very unemployed.
    ok, so what are the typical attitudes that gammas take towards the system?

    I'm talking about an overall trend, not an absolute. And you're being a bit extreme, because I made no mention of ideological revolutions and what not. Aristocratic quadras just have a more natural understanding of populism and knowing how to harness it. They don't have to like it, but they more readily recognize the utility in it.
    I can agree with that. not necessarily populism, but a combination of structure and humanitarianism.

    Yeah, just like I said. βs don't like 'the system' when it's not their system lol. Same goes for δs of course. Hence why the two are eternally at war; they're literally each other's shadow archetype.
    and the difference between us, is that betas will follow their own system without coercion, if left alone; whereas deltas will hold the invisible contract in front of everyone, as if subservience to moral objectification is noble.

    Which δs tend to see as stifling to their personal expression…
    what, basing expression around ideological alignment?

    Are you sure?
    for now, yeah.

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    "We must let go of the life we have planned, so as to accept the one that is waiting for us."
    I really like this one. We plan, God laughs. All plans get destroyed by the supernova artistry of real art.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    No, just .
    It's talking about the correlative relationship between beliefs to knowledge.That's not Ti? Sure there's Ni emphasis/perspective, but what's being examined or noticed is Ti: systems of knowledge and belief.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    He's always arriving at some moral conclusion..
    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    I really like this one. We plan, God laughs. All plans get destroyed by the supernova artistry of real art.
    yeah fo real
    INTp

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedrat360 View Post
    He's always arriving at some moral conclusion..
    Yeah, like a Rational type.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    It's talking about the correlative relationship between beliefs to knowledge.That's not Ti? Sure there's Ni emphasis/perspective, but what's being examined or noticed is Ti: systems of knowledge and belief.
    No. Don't take it the wrong way, I'm not arguing this guy's type, as I don't have an opinion of it at this point. How you put it sounds Te-ish to me, actually. But the fragment itself can be interpreted in many ways, and probably to everyone the most natural interpretation is in terms of their own values.

    To me he speaks of the necessity for beliefs to keep up with times, rather than lagging behind and expecting to preserve the status quo by the virtue of tradition, which is simply sensible rather than socionics-related. In terms of commonly used stereotypes, it's about shaping a system around evidence (Te implying Fi) rather than reacting to this evidence based on the idealized system (Ti implying Fe).

    It's one of possible interpretations, and it just happens to be the one that jumps out at me - probably because of my own type. Nevertheless, I'd never say it's "pure [insert any element]". Perhaps in context or with author's meaning made clearer, it would point to one of them or another, but it's by no means indicative of type on its own.

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Lol, I thought 'moral conclusions' were the supposed realm of … ? Apparently I haven't been keeping up to date with the stereotypes.
    That's not really a stereotype so much as a basic understanding of the rational/irrational dichotomy: control vs. emergence.

    Understanding correlations between beliefs and knowledge is a pretty generic thing that most humans readily grasp.
    Just like how all humans use every function. Funny how that works...

    And he's not really talking about "systems of knowledge and belief" here; all he mentioned was something of a general pattern which characterizes that relationship (between belief and knowledge) as it exists today.
    He's not just making the observation of a pattern, though; he's saying "this is how it should be," an abstract logical imperative governing the relationship between two bodies of knowledge. This is Field Logic.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    I see the Ni similarity; not sure what else you're pointing to.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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