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Thread: Reinin dichotomies --- What each dichotomy is about

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    Default Reinin dichotomies --- What each dichotomy is about

    Many people (like, for example, Rick DeLong, Dmitry Lytov, Sergei Ganin ) don't understand the Reinin dichotomies and therefore consider them useless. One of the reasons is that the descriptions are fuzzy...

    Maybe we should try to find out what each of the Reinin dichotomies is all about, summarizing the meaning in one word...

    carefree/fasighted: Worries. Do you worry a lot or not?
    yielding/obstinate: Ideas. Do you often fight for your ideas or not?
    static/dynamic: Interests. Are you more interested in patterns or in developments?
    democratic/aristocratic: Groups. Do you identify with your nation, you race, your sports club or not?
    tactical/strategic: Goals. Do you usually set clear goals or not?
    emotivist/constructivist: Emotions. Do you stay in an emotional state for a long time or not?
    positivist/negativist: Problems. Do you mention the negative or the positive aspects?
    judicious/decisive: Life. Are you a hedonist or a careerist?
    merry/serious: Atmosphere. Do you prefer a merry or a serious atmosphere?
    process/result: Work. Do you work on many things at once (multitasking) or not?
    asking/declaring: Conversations. Do you ask many questions or do you rather tell stories?
    Last edited by JohnDo; 09-17-2010 at 01:35 AM.

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    carefree/fasighted: Worries. Do you worry a lot or not?

    I worry more than I know is good for me.

    yielding/obstinate: Ideas. Do you often fight for your ideas or not?

    Not sure how to answer this one. If the idea was really important to me, probably would. Alot of the time, though, I don't fight for my ideas enough for the sake of preserving harmony.

    static/dynamic: Interests. Are you more interested in patterns or in developments?

    Both, but I'm more interested in patterns.

    democratic/aristocratic: Groups. Do you identify with your nation, you race, your sports club or not?

    Not particularly. I remember taking one of those political quizzes and one of the questions was "You don't choose your county of birth, so its foolish to be proud of it." That kind of sums up my point of view.

    tactical/strategic: Goals. Do you usually set clear goals or not?

    I set goals, but they tend to be more general in nature.

    emotivist/constructivist: Emotions. Do you stay in an emotional state for a long time or not?

    Depends. I know that I have the bad tendency to dwell on negative feelings too long.

    positivist/negativist: Problems. Do you mention the negative or the positive aspects?

    Both. I don't really know how to answer this.

    judicious/decisive: Life. Are you a hedonist or a careerist?

    I don't really like this question. Neither one feels quite right to me. I kind of think I fit careerist more. I care about having a successful and satisfying career but at the same time, I don't want my career to completely dominate my life. I want balance.

    merry/serious: Atmosphere. Do you prefer a merry or a serious atmosphere?

    Again it depends on the context. I guess if I had to pick one, I'd slightly prefer merry.

    process/result: Work. Do you work on many things at once (multitasking) or not?

    I'm a multitasker and often go back and forth between things.

    asking/declaring: Conversations. Do you ask many questions or do you rather tell stories?

    Mostly ask questions
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    Many people (like, for example, Rick DeLong, Dmitry Lytov, Sergei Ganin ) don't understand the Reinin dichotomies and therefore consider them useless. One of the reasons is that the descriptions are fuzzy...

    Maybe we should try to find out what each of the Reinin dichotomies is all about, summarizing the meaning in one word...
    So as to make them even more useless and ridiculous? The exact problem with them is that these "ideas" behind them are too general and don't really apply.

    carefree/fasighted: Worries. Do you worry a lot or not?
    I worry a lot.

    yielding/obstinate: Ideas. Do you often fight for your ideas or not?
    Yes, though I've no idea which side of the dichotomy it is meant to illustrate. Share/protect resources/ideas happens to work.

    static/dynamic: Interests. Are you more interested in patterns or in developments?
    How is one supposed to consider one without the other?

    democratic/aristocratic: Groups. Do you identify with your nation, you race, your sports club or not?
    Yes.

    tactical/strategic: Goals. Do you usually set clear goals or not?
    No.

    emotivist/constructivist: Emotions. Do you stay in an emotional state for a long time or not?
    Not really.

    positivist/negativist: Problems. Do you mention the negative or the positive aspects?
    Negative.

    judicious/decisive: Life. Are you a hedonist or a careerist?
    Hedonist.

    merry/serious: Atmosphere. Do you prefer a merry or a serious atmosphere?
    Serious.

    process/result: Work. Do you work on many things at once (multitasking) or not?
    Depending on tasks, I'm more effective in one mode or the other.

    asking/declaring: Conversations. Do you ask many questions or do you rather tell stories?
    Ask.

    ---

    So let's see... Delta, Negativist, Farsighted... no such type. IEE being closest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    IEE being closest.
    Delta is growing in numbers lately ...

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    carefree/fasighted: Worries. Do you worry a lot or not?
    somewhat

    yielding/obstinate: Ideas. Do you often fight for your ideas or not?
    sometimes

    static/dynamic: Interests. Are you more interested in patterns or in developments?
    don't really know

    democratic/aristocratic: Groups. Do you identify with your nation, you race, your sports club or not?
    occasionally

    tactical/strategic: Goals. Do you usually set clear goals or not?
    yes and no

    emotivist/constructivist: Emotions. Do you stay in an emotional state for a long time or not?
    Depends somewhat on whether being in a non-emotional state for a long time counts as an emotional state.

    positivist/negativist: Problems. Do you mention the negative or the positive aspects?
    Probably more negative.

    judicious/decisive: Life. Are you a hedonist or a careerist?
    Neither, really.

    merry/serious: Atmosphere. Do you prefer a merry or a serious atmosphere?
    It depends.

    process/result: Work. Do you work on many things at once (multitasking) or not?
    Depends on what I'm working on.

    asking/declaring: Conversations. Do you ask many questions or do you rather tell stories?
    I'm not convinced this is an accurate reflection of the asker\declarer dichotomy. Otherwise, it depends.

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    SubT, your type is XXXx.
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    What is with the almost absurd obsession to reduce the complexity of concepts into the span of a single word?
    "Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
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    ILE according to this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    carefree/fasighted: Worries. Do you worry a lot or not?
    I do worry a lot. I worry about my loved ones dying. I worry about losing my financial income, my home, etc. I worry about if the van will make it to town. I worry about making it some place on time.

    But I don't let the worry immobilize me. Concerns are a natural part of modern life. Specific concerns/worries, are usually a learned thing.


    yielding/obstinate: Ideas. Do you often fight for your ideas or not?
    No. I'd have to believe in something strong enough to fight for it. Also, I get lots of ideas. To spend time and energy fighting for them all would reduce my ability to act upon them, or do something with them. Also, to successfully fight for ideas requires sufficient ability with logical thinking, not just ability, but endurance of logical thinking. So it's just easier all around to not even bother.

    Mind, though, that not bothering, or not being able to sufficiently argue an idea doesn't mean that I'm yielding to those who do.


    static/dynamic: Interests. Are you more interested in patterns or in developments?
    Hmm, tough one. I think that I tend to get information on the development of something, so that I can try to find the pattern to it. Pattern of developments, anyone?

    democratic/aristocratic: Groups. Do you identify with your nation, you race, your sports club or not?
    Well, I live in the usa, I'm educated by usa educational system, I'm influenced by primarily usa culture. To deny those influences would be to deny my experiences.

    I don't tend to pay much attention to race.
    I'm not in a sports club, not much into sports.
    Let's see, what clubs/groups do I belong to.... I am a mother, and therefore share similar experiences as other mothers and/or parents which non-parents lack. But I hate being limited to "mother", as I feel I am much more than that. I have certain psychological issues that I deal with, which are similar to those that others with the same issues deal with. But I am much more than those issues. I share a similar thinking process as other NeFi, even if the actual details we are dealing with differ. But I am much more than just NeFi.

    I am also part of a couple of groups that I don't particularly 'identify' with. And while I am a member of these groups, I don't particularly feel that I belong.

    tactical/strategic: Goals. Do you usually set clear goals or not?
    I've been told over and over again that in order to be successful, I must set clear and specific goals. And so, I've made numerous attempts at that. But realistically, any goal or image of my future I have now can change at any point...even within 2 seconds after thinking of the goal.

    I'm told that I should set out step by step achievements towards the goal. But really, things change, and I'm loathe to sit down and try to take into consideration every little thing that can change and how I'm going to work around it. To do so leads to "worries" above.

    So while I may talk of having a goal, or working on a project, it's only the idea of the moment. How long that moment lasts will determine how far I get to achieving the goal. At least I now cycle between certain consistently thought of goals.

    emotivist/constructivist: Emotions. Do you stay in an emotional state for a long time or not?
    I like to refer to emotions as energy in motion...e-motion. I think it's a little silly to think that e-motions don't change. However, I am always guided by my e-motions. I'm not sure which one applies to the question, or how.

    positivist/negativist: Problems. Do you mention the negative or the positive aspects?
    Negative aspects have the ability to motivate us to change things.
    Positive aspects have the ability to help us feel good about something.
    Yin-Yang. Both are beneficial. To ignore either is to limit one's self and one's understandings.

    judicious/decisive: Life. Are you a hedonist or a careerist?
    I'm moody, I want what I want, when I want. I'm only willing to put myself into uncomfy situations for a limited time, IF I'm hoping to get something out of it. Limited to me means at most a week, but rarely even that long.

    I also believe in getting paid while doing something one enjoys, rather than doing something one dislikes in hopes of later enjoying something. Lol, this could be why my house is a mess and why I never learned how to cook.

    merry/serious: Atmosphere. Do you prefer a merry or a serious atmosphere?
    Um, sometimes one, sometimes the other? To everything there is a season, a time, and a place. Sometimes I just want to relax and have fun, without worries. A serious atmosphere doesn't contribute to that. Other times I want to be more serious and attempt to be focused. A merry atmosphere doesn't particularly contribute to that.

    process/result: Work. Do you work on many things at once (multitasking) or not?
    I get distracted way too easily, so wind up doing many things at once, but nothing done well...if done at all.
    When I want to actually achieve something, I've been learning to try to do only that thing, so as to try to reduce distractions.
    If it ever works out, I'll let ya know. :wink:

    asking/declaring: Conversations. Do you ask many questions or do you rather tell stories?
    I'm quite nosey and will ask a lot of questions.
    However, I feel that in the process of people answering questions, I've learned a lot and gained some ideas which I am happy to share, particularly to those who may also gain ideas from those stories that were shared with me. This is the other reason why I ask so many questions.


    ---
    Ok, so what would that make me, according to the OP's definitions?
    (Break it down for me so I can follow along and see what it is that you see.)
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

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    I seem to fit EIE dichotomies except Process/Result and Carefree/Farsighted

    I worry a lot about fucking things up(and I usally fuck them up just because I worry too much!) also I am a perfectionist when it comes to work and that makes me worry even harder!
    Also I am not sure if I tend to work on many subjects at once. I really hate to be disturbed by somebody when I am reading a book, cleaning, drawing, etc etc etc. However I do tend to change my activities a lot. Sometimes I just try to do something and then I feel like the mood doesn't fit doing that and then I try to do something else until I find an activity which fits my state of mood. But yeah, then I am actually focused I can hardly distract myself from an activity.
    Sincerely Yours,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    So as to make them even more useless and ridiculous? The exact problem with them is that these "ideas" behind them are too general and don't really apply.
    They do apply but the names are misleading and the descriptions are confusing. That's why I want one easy to answer question for every dichotomy...

    If you think they don't apply you have either mistyped the persons or you need more experience. First you need to be sure of many typings. Then you can see how the Reinin dichotomies work. Afterwards you learn to use them in the typing process...

    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    Do you often fight for your ideas or not?

    Yes, though I've no idea which side of the dichotomy it is meant to illustrate. Share/protect resources/ideas happens to work.
    Well, this resources stuff can be misunderstood. ISFps, for example, don't really seem to be resource-protecting, they give a lot of resources to people they like but protect them against people they don't like...

    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    Are you more interested in patterns or in developments?

    How is one supposed to consider one without the other?
    Well, statics prefer to analyze patterns, dynamics don't like it that much...

    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    So let's see... Delta, Negativist, Farsighted... no such type. IEE being closest.
    Subtype certainly affects the Reinin dichotomies. That's why I think for typing one should pick the 7 dichtomies he is most sure of.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    Not sure "worries" is the best word? For example, how do you see an ILE E6 as not worried, and how is an SEE E7 worried?
    Okay, this question might be amiguous. But "do you prepare for everything" is a question where nobody would say yes. "Do you prepare more thoroughly than others?" might be confused with judging/perceiving. An ISTj would say yes but he's carefree...

    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    Ideas is good. What about saying "do you share your ideas or your belongings more easily?"
    I can't aswer that question. Shouldn't I share my ideas easily as an INTj? I think the difference is more that obstinate people like tcaudillg or myself want to convince everyone of their ideas. Yielding types aren't that interested in convincing everyone. But then... what about Maritsa...? She's probably INFj-ESFp, obstinate subtype...

    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    No. This one doesn't work. At all. Horribly failed question. You seem to not understand aristocracy.
    Aristocratic people I know are happy when the German soccer team or other german athletes win. I don't care at all, I want the more likeable athletes to win, no matter if they are German or not. If you know some racists or nationalists it is safe to assume they are Aristocratic, probably ESTp or ENFj. Simply because Aristocratic means you stronger identify with the groups you belong to. Delta aristocracy is slightly different. But they are certainly inclined to offer a job to a friend, even if there are better candidates. Aristocratic Delta-Connections. They strongly identify with their friends and privilege them, even when it isn't a good choice.
    How do you interpret Democratic/Aristocratic...?


    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    Almost, but it sounds a bit like rationality, so I think a lot of irrational strategic people could answer 'no' to this one. I generally dislike this dichotomy, so I'm not sure I can find a better question.
    Same problem as with carefree/farsighted. That's why most people don't use it. Model T would help I guess - but no English translation is available....

    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    I think you'll get a lot of SEE hedonists and LSE careerist if you ask this one....
    I don't think so. I would even rename judicious/decisive and call it careerist/hedonistic. Forum member Crispy (INTj) initially mistyped himself as INTp because he thought being careerist or hedonistic was related to judging/perceiving which is simply not the case. It is also very clear that careerist/hedonist is a quadra value because careerists often don't like hedonists and hedonists often don't like careerists. Even people who don't know anything about socionics probably know that...

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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    Ok, so what would that make me, according to the OP's definitions?
    (Break it down for me so I can follow along and see what it is that you see.)
    Tactical*Judicious*Result. ENFp or ESFj. The other dichotomies are unclear.

    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    I do worry a lot. I worry about my loved ones dying. I worry about losing my financial income, my home, etc. I worry about if the van will make it to town. I worry about making it some place on time.
    The question is, do you worry more than others?

    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    No. I'd have to believe in something strong enough to fight for it.
    But what does "strong enough" mean? I'd say, for example, that Rick DeLong fights for his idea to introduce socionics to the west with his website, his wiki and his blog. But an ENFp would probably not call himself a fighter or say that he fights for something...

    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    I've been told over and over again that in order to be successful, I must set clear and specific goals. And so, I've made numerous attempts at that. But realistically, any goal or image of my future I have now can change at any point...even within 2 seconds after thinking of the goal.
    Tactical!

    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    I also believe in getting paid while doing something one enjoys, rather than doing something one dislikes in hopes of later enjoying something. Lol, this could be why my house is a mess and why I never learned how to cook.
    Judicious!

    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    I get distracted way too easily, so wind up doing many things at once, but nothing done well...if done at all.
    When I want to actually achieve something, I've been learning to try to do only that thing, so as to try to reduce distractions.
    If it ever works out, I'll let ya know. :wink:
    Result!

    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    I'm quite nosey and will ask a lot of questions.
    However, I feel that in the process of people answering questions, I've learned a lot and gained some ideas which I am happy to share, particularly to those who may also gain ideas from those stories that were shared with me. This is the other reason why I ask so many questions.
    Asking? That doesn't fit...
    Nosey Declarers ask questions, of course, but they prefer to tell long stories. The dichtomy could also be called Narrating/Listening. QUestion: "Are you more often narrating or listening in a conversation?"

    Using subtypes, you are probably ENFp-INFp. I know one in person and your answers remind me of him. That might explain why you worry much and ask a lot of questions. Have you ever posted pictures here for VI?

    The 7 dichotomies an ENFp and an INFp share are Intuitive, Feeling, Perceiving, Aristocratic, Tactical, Emotivist, Result.
    - Tactical and Result are clear.
    - Aristocratic is a bit more complicated because ENFps are certainly no racists and often not interested in sports.
    - Emotivist?
    Last edited by JohnDo; 09-21-2010 at 06:47 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    Tactical*Judicious*Result. ENFp or ESFj. The other dichotomies are unclear.

    The question is, do you worry more than others?
    I honestly don't know.
    I'm probably considering more negative possibilities at one time than others are, in general.
    But I try to avoid letting the worries block me from taking action. Whereas many people I see being frozen in place due to worrying about 1 or 2 things.

    Perhaps this has something to do with the negativist vs positivist thing?


    But what does "strong enough" mean? I'd say, for example, that Rick DeLong fights for his idea to introduce socionics to the west with his website, his wiki and his blog. But an ENFp would probably not call himself a fighter or say that he fights for something...
    I don't really see his site as fighting for an idea to introduce socionics to the west. I see a difference between sharing something with others, and fighting for an idea. When you share, there's little to no attachment to whether or not other people accept it. When you fight for something, there IS attachment to whether or not other people accept it.

    So "strong enough" would refer to level of attachment. I'm generally not that attached to ideas. There's too many to even consider developing an attachment to being attached to them all. :wink:


    Tactical! Judicious! Result!
    Hmm, ...no wonder I never seem to get anything done, lol.

    Though, I'm not sure how my response led to Result. Will you clarify this for me?

    Asking? That doesn't fit...
    Nosey Declarers ask questions, of course, but they prefer to tell long stories. The dichtomy could also be called Narrating/Listening. QUestion: "Are you more often narrating or listening in a conversation?"
    Narrating over listening. Usually narrating a story that lets the person know that I think I understood what they were saying and sharing experiences so that they know they are not alone, or so they feel validated. Also to help show them alternatives that they may not be aware of.


    Using subtypes, you are probably ENFp-INFp. I know one in person and your answers remind me of him. That might explain why you worry much and ask a lot of questions. Have you ever posted pictures here for VI?
    I don't believe in VI, so nothing I've posted has been for that purpose.
    I also don't think still images, most of which are posing, says much of a person, but maybe of that particular instance...taken out of context.
    I do, however, have a video somewhere, I think, that shows me talking to the camera. ....lol, found it. If you torture yourself to watch the first part, please keep in mind that it was night time and I didn't want to wake up my family, so my voice is a little off. Oh, and that it was a darned good thing that I had made a brief outline and had editing abilities, lol. youtube.com /watch?v=eJUgDxMvowo (note, I've separated the link parts so the video wouldn't show up in this post.)

    The 7 dichotomies an ENFp and an INFp share are Intuitive, Feeling, Perceiving, Aristocratic, Tactical, Emotivist, Result.
    - Tactical and Result are clear.
    - Aristocratic is a bit more complicated because ENFps are certainly no racists and often not interested in sports.
    - Emotivist?
    I didn't particularly understand the emotivist question, or how it might/might not apply.


    Thank you for taking the time to answer, JohnDo. I think some of the changes you made to clarify for me may help you as you refine your original questions.
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    I think the difference is more that obstinate people like tcaudillg or myself want to convince everyone of their ideas. Yielding types aren't that interested in convincing everyone.
    I love sharing ideas with people but I'm not necessarily that interested in convincing everyone. I don't really care about trying to influence someone's point of view. Only if the ideas are really important to me and I truly see the value in a certain viewpoint and then probably convince just a few people.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    Aristocratic people I know are happy when the German soccer team or other german athletes win. I don't care at all, I want the more likeable athletes to win, no matter if they are German or not. If you know some racists or nationalists it is safe to assume they are Aristocratic, probably ESTp or ENFj. Simply because Aristocratic means you stronger identify with the groups you belong to. Delta aristocracy is slightly different. But they are certainly inclined to offer a job to a friend, even if there are better candidates. Aristocratic Delta-Connections. They strongly identify with their friends and privilege them, even when it isn't a good choice.
    How do you interpret Democratic/Aristocratic...?
    Great, now I'm confused even more. I cheer for both teams and individuals. I remember going to homecoming games in high school and getting caught up in the team spirit and wanting my school's team to win. On the other hand when watching the Olympics, I didn't really care if the Americans won or not. I was more interested in the individuals themselves, pushing themselves to the limit. Like you, I wanted the more likeable ones to win and often rooted for the underdog because I like seeing people beat the odds.

    And I sort of relate to your example on Delta aristocracy. I think I too, would be inclined to offer a job to a friend. Of course I'm assuming that the friend would be competent at the job. I wouldn't hire a friend who I know wouldn't be competent or reliable but if the friend was good enough by my standards I'd be inclined to hire him or her above better candidates. The thing is, if you look hard enough, there's always someone better. Should we continue to replace the people working who are basically good with people that are even better? I don't think so.


    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    I don't think so. I would even rename judicious/decisive and call it careerist/hedonistic. Forum member Crispy (INTj) initially mistyped himself as INTp because he thought being careerist or hedonistic was related to judging/perceiving which is simply not the case. It is also very clear that careerist/hedonist is a quadra value because careerists often don't like hedonists and hedonists often don't like careerists. Even people who don't know anything about socionics probably know that...
    Maybe I'm not understand careerist/hedonistic properly. I don't really know how to answer this. I guess when I think of hedonistic, for some reason sensory pleasures come to mind. Considering that I'm weak sensing, I could see how hedonistic wouldn't quite fit. But I'm sure there's more to it than that. And what exactly do you mean by careerist? Is it someone who is willing to put pleasures aside to succeed in their career? Something else?
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    Though, I'm not sure how my response led to Result. Will you clarify this for me?
    Result types do many things at once...

    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    I don't believe in VI, so nothing I've posted has been for that purpose.
    Really? I think VI is the most interesting part of socionics...

    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    I didn't particularly understand the emotivist question, or how it might/might not apply.
    Emotionally instable persons are probably more often than not Emotivist types. Their emotions change quickly...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    I guess others laugh at me for checking if my kids breathe all the time (I do it to make sure they are ok, not because I worry....)
    I wouldn't be laughing, I do it too.
    I'm a super light sleeper and will awaken at just about any change that happens in the house. Apartments and hotels are hell on me. If the animals shift position in their beds, I wake up. (I've taken to putting a white noise thing by my bedside to turn on at night, so that I'm not aware of those minor things as much anymore.)

    As a baby, my daughter had some funky breathing patterns. If she wasn't waking me up screaming, she was waking me up due to a change in her breathing. When she got her own room, I was constantly out of bed checking on her. When we got this house, and her room as at the complete other end of the house, I still worry, but with the white noise machine to help me, I force myself not to keep checking on her.

    Richard also has funky snoring patterns. Sometimes he'll be in the middle of a big snore...and then silence...... . I'll look at his body to try to see if his chest is still moving, and listen for the sound of breathing. If it's too dark or I can't hear, I touch him, which slightly jars him a little and I start seeing/hearing his breathing again.

    I KNOW it's an irrational fear of mine, but still, I fear losing them.
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    I don't think so. I would even rename judicious/decisive and call it careerist/hedonistic. Forum member Crispy (INTj) initially mistyped himself as INTp because he thought being careerist or hedonistic was related to judging/perceiving which is simply not the case. It is also very clear that careerist/hedonist is a quadra value because careerists often don't like hedonists and hedonists often don't like careerists. Even people who don't know anything about socionics probably know that...
    And many more people would mistype themselves if they believed the distinction you make.

    I just don't get it why are you trying to make Reinin dichotomies worse than they already are. You break those that somehow work and prove that the rest can be made even more ridiculous. OK, it would probably more-or-less work if your aim was convincing people they aren't this bad in their current form. Is that what you are trying to do?

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    Quote Originally Posted by warrior-librarian View Post
    Is it someone who is willing to put pleasures aside to succeed in their career? Something else?
    Yes this is almost it. Less about success and more about cash.
    The best encapsulation of the different that I've seen is from wikisocion:
    Judicious (hedonist): # Consider their working conditions (e.g., comfort, freedom, and convenience) more important than the possible results and rewards (e.g., how much they are paid).
    Decisive (careerist): # Consider the possible results and rewards of their work (e.g., how much they are paid) more important than the working conditions (e.g., comfort, freedom, and convenience).

    I can personally vouch for LSE's being hedonistic (highly value comfort/freedom, so end up starting businesses and being their own bosses)
    As well as SEE's being Careeristic (Dollar dollar bill yall)
    ILI (FINAL ANSWER)

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    Quote Originally Posted by warrior-librarian View Post
    I love sharing ideas with people but I'm not necessarily that interested in convincing everyone. I don't really care about trying to influence someone's point of view. Only if the ideas are really important to me and I truly see the value in a certain viewpoint and then probably convince just a few people.
    Sounds like a Yielding type. INFj?

    Quote Originally Posted by warrior-librarian View Post
    And I sort of relate to your example on Delta aristocracy. I think I too, would be inclined to offer a job to a friend. Of course I'm assuming that the friend would be competent at the job. I wouldn't hire a friend who I know wouldn't be competent or reliable but if the friend was good enough by my standards I'd be inclined to hire him or her above better candidates.
    That really sounds like an Aristocratic type. INFj?

    Quote Originally Posted by warrior-librarian View Post
    And what exactly do you mean by careerist? Is it someone who is willing to put pleasures aside to succeed in their career? Something else?
    Yes, that's what it is. A hedonist wants a job that is fun. A careerist wants a good job because of money and success...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    True. But worry isn't any better. I'm farsighted, but wouldn't admit to being a worrying type. I guess others laugh at me for checking if my kids breathe all the time (I do it to make sure they are ok, not because I worry....) or for making sure all loose objects are removed from the car before driving (I don't see it as me worrying, I consider it being smart, as I wouldn't want to be killed by a flying object inside the car in case of a car accident).
    I'm not a native speaker but I'd say it sounds as if you worry a lot. Or maybe it's just a language problem. Would you say that you don't "bother a lot" but maybe "contemplate a lot". To be honest, words like those I have to look up in a dictionary. Why aren't there any German forums about socionics? Hell, I can't concentrate on socionics with all those language probs...


    Preparations and worries, that's what Carefree/Farsighted is about... "Do you worry a lot?" - Some Farsighted types might say no. "Do you prepare more thoroughly than others?" - Carefree rationals might say yes... Maybe this dichotomy is not very useful for typing...

    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    So maybe there must be more clarification. I think the way Wikisocion contrasts the dichotomies work, but I agree with you that some of the dichotomies could be clearer.
    Those typical characteristics on wikisocion were taken from a pilot study of a working group in St.Petersburg. Probably not very scientific... I don't even know what charactics Reinin and Augusta attributed to those dichotomies. No translations available... Nevertheless, I think those Reinin dichotomies might help a lot if understood properly...

    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    I've only met ILE nazis, but that doesn't mean anything, statistically.
    I can't imagine ILE nazis. Probably mistypings...

    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    As for your question : Do you identify with your nation, you race, your sports club or not? Consider someone answering "No, they are losers." The words "they are..." is a grouping, and reveals aristocracy. Remember that people who CLEARLY defines themselves as NOT part of a group, because of group features, are also aristocrats, since democrats wouldn't care that much. Meaning a lot of aristocrats probably would say "no" to your original question.
    I don't think so. If America loses a war like Vietnam or Iraq, the Aristocratic nationalists will still identify with their nation. If the Americans elect a black president like Barack Obama, the Aristocratic racists will still shout "White Power".

    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    Don't know model T.
    Model T explains the 4 most unpopular Reinin dichotomies: Carefree/Farsighted, Yielding/Obstinate, Tactical/Strategic, Emotivist/Constructivist. Would be interesting to have a translation...

    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    Test it. Make a thread and ask people if they see themselves as hedonists or careerist. I asked an IEI and an LSE what they are, and the IEI answered hedonist and the LSE answered careerist, so I fear that dichotomy doesn't work.
    I'll do that...
    Last edited by JohnDo; 09-23-2010 at 11:58 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    And many more people would mistype themselves if they believed the distinction you make.
    One single Reinin dichotomy won't cause any mistypings...

    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    I just don't get it why are you trying to make Reinin dichotomies worse than they already are.
    To offer the INTp-Critics something they can criticize. Just what you are waiting for...

    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    You break those that somehow work and prove that the rest can be made even more ridiculous.
    I just try to summarize and simplify them. It's not a surprise that a Critic, who doesn't value , doesn't like that approach...

    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    OK, it would probably more-or-less work if your aim was convincing people they aren't this bad in their current form. Is that what you are trying to do?
    Yeah, that's what I'm trying, actually. But the second thing is, I want to find some easy questions to determine types. "Read the descriptions on wikisocion and tell me what you are" is not a very good way of typing because people don't understand the descriptions or they are unable to decide where they belong to. That's why we need some easy questions we can ask new users on this forum to help them find their type...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    IEE being closest.
    I personally could easily see you as some kind of extrovert. Your mental/communicative energy and stimulation seems higher than what I'd typically expect of an introvert or reflective type. Though IEE probably represents the wrong approach, as it doesn't strongly come across as "social" EF energy, but rather ET energy. I think ETs, esp ETPs can easily mistype as introverts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polikujm View Post
    I personally could easily see you as some kind of extrovert. Your mental/communicative energy and stimulation seems higher than what I'd typically expect of an introvert or reflective type. Though IEE probably represents the wrong approach, as it doesn't strongly come across as "social" EF energy, but rather ET energy. I think ETs, esp ETPs can easily mistype as introverts.
    I'll try it on, then! *explodes with newly revealed mental energy*





    um… nothing happened?

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    fuck you
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    I'll try it on, then! *explodes with newly revealed mental energy*





    um… nothing happened?
    Maybe you're just one of those, uhm, what are they called. Girls, yeah girls. They like to talk a lot I heard. A lot of people in chatbox seem to talk a lot, they automatically give me impressions of extroversion...but maybe its different in Socionics. Maybe I'm just crazy. I could never talk nonstop for that freaking long about politics, history, or science, whatever you freaks go on about. Don't you have enough time for introspection?

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    Why polikujm as an INTp tests as ENTp:

    INTp and ENTp have only 4 Reinin traits in common with the remaining 7 not in common:
    tactical, democratic, constructivist, process
    So, theoretically, it should be relatively easy to distinguish between INTp and ENTp using Reinin dichotomies. Do you at least relate to those 4 traits, polikujm?

    Now how can an INTp test as ENTp? It certainly depends on subtype. You are probably an INTp-ISFp, I know 2 of them in person. These types have 5 Reinin traits in common so the following traits should be clearly yours:
    dynamic, democratic, negativist, process, declaring
    Do you relate to them?

    The traits ENTp and ISFp have in common but INTp and ISFp do not have in common are:
    carefree, yielding, merry, judicious
    So if you relate to those 4 dichotomies it is probably because of your 2nd type.



    There are 11 Reinin dichotomies. INTp and ENTp share 4. From the remaining 7 you should strongly relate to 3 of the INTp (dynamic, negativist, declaring) and maybe you could relate to 4 of the ENTp because of your 2nd type (carefree, yielding, merry, judicious). That's it...
    Last edited by JohnDo; 09-25-2010 at 05:07 PM.

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    I relate pretty well to every single one of the ENTp dichotomies tbqh (and dont forget IMs). Really except for extroversion, so it must be an ENTp subtype issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polikujm View Post
    I relate pretty well to every single one of the ENTp dichotomies tbqh (and dont forget IMs). Really except for extroversion, so it must be an ENTp subtype issue.
    So you really relate to static*positivist*asking?! Then you are either not ILI or not familiar with those dichotomies or your 2nd type must have those traits (what I don't believe).

    You should probably try to see those traits in people you have already typed. Do you see aking ESEs or dynamic LIIs, for example? Then you simply don't understand those dichotomies (which is the likeliest explanation)...

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    Very Clear SLE from those choices. Reinen Dichotomies seem pretty good for typing...
    ILI (FINAL ANSWER)

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    So you really relate to static*positivist*asking?! Then you are either not ILI or not familiar with those dichotomies or your 2nd type must have those traits (what I don't believe).

    You should probably try to see those traits in people you have already typed. Do you see aking ESEs or dynamic LIIs, for example? Then you simply don't understand those dichotomies (which is the likeliest explanation)...
    Well in all honestly, I think I have a pretty good idea of the meaning behind the dichotomies, and even your one word examples seemed to yield the same answer for me. Just like with a lot of other dichotomies, I'm pretty sure that I relate strongly to static, positivist, and asking. So the only odd dichotomy I relate more to is introversion. I definitely relate to Ne and Ti, especially in their more traditional forms, but could never be sure if I'm EP or IJ or which of these functions is my dominant, and I relate the most to IP. I've been studying VI, my relations with others, reading type descriptions, and these dichotomies, etc etc, which have led me to believe I'm an ENTp. The only ENTp descriptions that don't sound like me are the ones that make them out as heavy talkers, leaders, and extroverts, which is to say basically just MBTI-ized descriptions and not many. I'm the silent thoughtful type.

    PS. No I haven't seen any asking ESEs, or dynamic LIIs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    carefree/fasighted: Worries. Do you worry a lot or not?
    Very rarely worried

    yielding/obstinate: Ideas. Do you often fight for your ideas or not?
    hard to say, but I'd say more often yes than no.

    static/dynamic: Interests. Are you more interested in patterns or in developments?
    donno what this means and donno how to answer.

    democratic/aristocratic: Groups. Do you identify with your nation, you race, your sports club or not?
    Not at all, but I generally dislike America, I'm a mutt, and I don't have a sports club or anything of the like. I hold the idea that blind pride in groups is more often harmful than beneficial though.

    tactical/strategic: Goals. Do you usually set clear goals or not?
    yes, I have a lot of goals.

    emotivist/constructivist: Emotions. Do you stay in an emotional state for a long time or not?
    Hard to say, I want to say no.

    positivist/negativist: Problems. Do you mention the negative or the positive aspects?
    hard to say

    judicious/decisive: Life. Are you a hedonist or a careerist?
    definite careerist

    merry/serious: Atmosphere. Do you prefer a merry or a serious atmosphere?
    serious

    process/result: Work. Do you work on many things at once (multitasking) or not?
    sometimes

    asking/declaring: Conversations. Do you ask many questions or do you rather tell stories?
    hard to say



    I fit ENTj except obstinate/yielding, and ESFp except for carefree/farsighted. Idk about these definitions for reinin dichotomies.
    3w4-5w6-9w8

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    Why polikujm as an INTp tests as ENTp:

    INTp and ENTp have only 4 Reinin traits in common with the remaining 7 not in common:
    tactical, democratic, constructivist, process
    So, theoretically, it should be relatively easy to distinguish between INTp and ENTp using Reinin dichotomies. Do you at least relate to those 4 traits, polikujm?
    Theoretically, all types differ on exactly the same number of dichotomies (eight), counting Reinin and Jung. Since the Jungian dichotomies are generally easier to distinguish than the majority of the Reinin dichotomies, the opposite conclusion (that ENTp and INTp are harder to tell apart than most type distinctions) makes more sense.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    Theoretically, all types differ on exactly the same number of dichotomies (eight), counting Reinin and Jung. Since the Jungian dichotomies are generally easier to distinguish than the majority of the Reinin dichotomies, the opposite conclusion (that ENTp and INTp are harder to tell apart than most type distinctions) makes more sense.
    If you use all 15 dichotomies - yes. If you already tried to type yourself with Jungian dichotomies and failed - no.

    Polikujm isn't sure if he is INTp or ENTp. There are 8-1=7 Reinin dichotomies to find it out. If he wasn't sure if he's INTp or ESFj, there would only be 8-4=4 chances...

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    According to Reinin's writings, the two leftist duals will both prefer to work alone, have their own space and, from my own logical estimation, more likely prefer silence from the outside. (He noted leftists especially in the sense of being individualistic, "individualism" and similar to the hermit.) So this is much less of a difference one should think about than it is a similarity, as duals share the same mode. The two rightist duals are known for their "collectivism and communalism," similar to the communal, having a greater ability or desire to work on a team with other people, and not really needing their own space to think and perform. Quite the matchup with multitasking ability, with a bit more clarification. Though I'm aware this thread was intended for utmost simplification.

    In addition, these dichotomies were correlated to leftists thinking more about "future and the potential opportunities of a situation" and rightists focused on "the past and on summarizing of the results." The dichotomy is known for measuring lifestyle and method of social progress.

    Left = process
    Right = result

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