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Thread: the joy of walking known ways

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    Default the joy of walking known ways

    I know it must appear totally contradicting to my statements about me before, but I often avoid doing something new or to make new experiences because I think it's not worth the effort. It's hard to explain. Even if I emphasized my apparent use of , I still feel like that. I'm still open for new and also unrealistic ideas and projects. For instance, if I would have the chance to join an arctic expedition or a world trip, I'd gladly accept it. And this would be definitely something new to me.

    But on the other side, I'm probably one of these guys who say "It was better in the past." when I'm getting old. Of course not in every regard, but still. For example: I really like to play computer games for several years now. But for some time, I don't seem to want new ones, just replay the old games. I rather play a game of which I now it's good than trying out a new one I might don't like at all.

    An other thing is that I'm about to move because of my studies. I'm homesick before I even moved out. Of course, it's normal for everyone, but others I've asked said they would be happy to meet new people and all that, which is not really interesting for me. (Okay, introversion would explain this one.)

    I'm not sure what the reason for this attitude is, maybe it's just a reluctance to change.
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Sounds a bit like constructivist/emotivist. I'm no fan of Reinin dichotomies, but this one makes sense unless it's overinterpreted (like "new/old", "buisness/fun" being used in general rather than differentiating where inert/contact logic/ethics matter). I don't agree with all points, but I think there's something to it, especially about emotivists seeking new emotional experiences while constructivists tend to have "emotional anchors" such as books or places. xNTps have contact logic and inert ethics, they're more likely to be bored by and seek out new knowledge or concepts than new experiences. For xNTjs, these seem to be more stable - as in, they're more persistent and less likely to be quickly bored by them, they have the patience to stick with them and develop theories - while emotionally they enjoy new experiences more than familiar ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    Sounds a bit like constructivist/emotivist.
    Yes.

    Or he is simply getting bored of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    I don't agree with all points, but I think there's something to it, especially about emotivists seeking new emotional experiences while constructivists tend to have "emotional anchors" such as books or places.
    It's interesting that you say that. When I read through all reinin dichotomies I could identify myself very well with having 'emotional anchors'. That's why I think I'm rather a constructivist.

    I just wanted to write my own perspective about that, that's why it's clear why you don't agree with all of that above. Sometimes it's like I already got enough of the world 'out there' and seek a place where it's quiet and peaceful. On the other handside, I feel the urge to explore the world to it's limits, but always on my own or in a small circle of like-minded people. It doesn't really make sense at all.
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    All the LIIs I know dislike change.
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    I meant all the points here. I originally quoted the descriptions but figured they aren't all that quoteworthy after all and never edited that sentence, sorry.

    I wouldn't say I dislike change as such - it only works for what creates an emotional response in me. If I'm relaxed, I'd jump at the chance to read a new book, but if I'm not, I'd rather reread an old favourite. On the other hand, when I'm learning things, I enjoy it, but then I'm soon bored and seek something new. I'd rather look for mental than emotional stimulation, if it makes sense.
    Last edited by Aiss; 09-15-2010 at 03:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    All the LIIs I know dislike change.
    Yes, maybe this is the reason. I wasn't aware of this attitude for a long time, but I'm definitely a nostalgic person who is also sceptical about changing life situations.

    EDIT: No problem, Aiss. I see what you meant.
    Last edited by Pa3s; 09-15-2010 at 03:05 PM.
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
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    Looks like a stereotypical rational title.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Oh, I didn't know that this was a known fact about Alpha NTs. But that's good, this explains a couple of things if I typed myself correct.

    I thought this aversion to change would rather be an issue of sensory types.

    EDIT: @Director Abbie: Do you mean the title of this thread?
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaDoomer View Post
    EDIT: @Director Abbie: Do you mean the title of the thread?
    Yes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    If my routine is so boring why would I keep doing it for years, hmmmmm?
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    The temperaments are usually cited as playing the biggest role (as should extensions like DCNH). Specifically, the spectrum extends from static rational to dynamic irrational.

    But I also think that:

    Ego = easily accept, look forward to, and constantly generate your own creative changes/additions/interpretations to these aspects. See people who don't live up to your own vision as needing your help. Often get impatient and annoyed with people who attempt to restrict your field of application.

    Superid = look for others to provide novelty and change in this area, but hold on to (and cherish) a traditional set of memorized routines for oneself. As a side note: Don't necessarily get annoyed with people who can't generate novelty in this aspect, but don't find them that interesting either. STAY THE HECK AWAY when people flout these aspects, whether or not on purpose.

    Superego = expect changes to occur and the need for you to act on and anticipate them (because these functions are in the mental ring). However, very easily gravitate to a lower resolution reality, one without changes, that's comprehensible and easier to live with. Dealing with constant changes and novelty in these aspects is painful because it means YOU'RE NOT GETTING IT!!!

    Id = don't look for novelty or change at all. This is the most conservative part of the psyche. You have the tightest grip on information of this kind and don't see any reason to experiment with it rather than applying it directly and with brute force. You act almost totally within the context of providing for the momentary needs of the situation.

    More or less. It'll vary slightly depending on the exact function and how well you've developed it (e.g. role and HA may approximate closer to ego and id, respectively, in certain individuals).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    Yes.
    Well, if you think so. I liked this expression, because it exactly describes what I wanted to say in the first post, but these are not my own words. I read it in a German type description or a mbti test, I think it was assigned to sensors.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss
    I don't agree with all points, but I think there's something to it, especially about emotivists seeking new emotional experiences while constructivists tend to have "emotional anchors"...
    Quote Originally Posted by MegaDoomer
    I could identify myself very well with...constructivist.
    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron
    All the LIIs I know dislike change.
    I'm not huge on dichotomies myself, but this one's had me kinda confused too. I'd agree LII's are often staid, routine, tried-and-true people (and I see it in myself); but I thought Reinin tagged them Emotivist (and ILI the opposite).

    In theory, are these things definite, or could someone's dichotomies stray from their type?

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    Reinin dichotomies are true, but some of their meanings are vague.

    One of the better examples of Emotivist vs. Constructivist is the amount of times you can watch the same movie. When I watch a movie (which is rare) it's usually because I could tell from the preview it had a new concept for it's story or something similar. Also I usually never watch a movie more than once or twice (exceptions are masterpieces like Joe Dirt ). This would make me an emotivist. My SLI sister is known for having a favorite movie at a given span of time (usually weeks) where she watches it again and again every few days (up to 10-20 times), hence constructivist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crispy View Post
    My SLI sister is known for having a favorite movie at a given span of time (usually weeks) where she watches it again and again every few days (up to 10-20 times), hence constructivist.
    whoa. I would never do that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    Sounds a bit like constructivist/emotivist.
    It also sounds like Si. Jungian Si.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Same. Alpha as a whole seems pretty change-averse IME. Which makes it funny when they talk about how loves novelty and what not, when in practice it isn't true at all. The most boringly routine, tasteless, stagnant people I've known were typically Alpha—usually NT. The SFs aren't as bad about it at least.
    I would not say that Alphas are averse to change, but are merely creatures of habit seeking refuge in known comforts and pleasures. So I think it is proper not to call Alphas change-averse without first examining the nature of the change itself, as one would likely find all types and quadras resistant to certain types of change.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CILi View Post
    I'd agree LII's are often staid, routine, tried-and-true people (and I see it in myself); but I thought Reinin tagged them Emotivist (and ILI the opposite).
    Of course you're right, I didn't mention that. But even if this dichotomy is not correct for me, the majority still is. You hardly find everything right which is stated by the dichotomies about you. There are also somehow contradicting facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crispy View Post
    My SLI sister is known for having a favorite movie at a given span of time (usually weeks) where she watches it again and again every few days (up to 10-20 times), hence constructivist.
    Yep, that's what I do. It's the same with computer games in my case. Even after years, I still get back to my old favourites.

    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    I would not say that Alphas are averse to change, but are merely creatures of habit seeking refuge in known comforts and pleasures. So I think it is proper not to call Alphas change-averse without first examining the nature of the change itself, as one would likely find all types and quadras resistant to certain types of change.
    That's a good suggestion. The bolded part is exactly what I meant. However, this description would make them partly constructivist. Maybe this is also a dichotomy which intensity is defined by another dichotomy. Just like 'Judiciousness' is strengthened by introversion and 'decisiveness' by extroversion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crispy View Post
    Reinin dichotomies are true, but some of their meanings are vague.

    One of the better examples of Emotivist vs. Constructivist is the amount of times you can watch the same movie. When I watch a movie (which is rare) it's usually because I could tell from the preview it had a new concept for it's story or something similar. Also I usually never watch a movie more than once or twice (exceptions are masterpieces like Joe Dirt ). This would make me an emotivist. My SLI sister is known for having a favorite movie at a given span of time (usually weeks) where she watches it again and again every few days (up to 10-20 times), hence constructivist.
    I must be an exception then. I do not like going to the movies, so I only need to watch them once in the theater. But I can watch a given movie in my possession repeatedly. Every time I am able to appreciate it in a new value or nuance. I could not watch it as often times as your sister though. I perhaps would watch it a number of times in a week and then move on to something new. It really goes in cycles in which I watch and rewatch material while periodically adding new material - with something unique to add - to the cycle.

    Quote Originally Posted by MegaDoomer View Post
    That's a good suggestion. The bolded part is exactly what I meant. However, this description would make them partly constructivist. Maybe this is also a dichotomy which intensity is defined by another dichotomy. Just like 'Judiciousness' is strengthened by introversion and 'decisiveness' by extroversion.
    While an extreme case (almost neurotic), Immanuel Kant would take daily walks with such precision that, supposedly, people along the path would use Kant's walking patterns to tell the time and set their clocks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crispy
    ...exceptions are masterpieces like Joe Dirt.
    Can't disagree with you there (You're My Sister!), but...
    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    I must be an exception then...I can watch a given movie in my possession repeatedly.
    ...I agree with this 100%.

    Much like most guys have those "special files" stashed deep in the nether-regions of their hard drives, I've got a similar collection of surefire -bombs, an ever-reliable trove of movies, music, and tv shows that'll put a smile on my face regardless of whether I've seen 'em two times or two-hundred. Maybe that's just me searching for an emotional ride I can't really provide myself, but it sounds kinda Constructivist too.

    Why look for a new feeling (and risk finding a bad one) than take the safe-and-sure bet of something that felt great before?

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    If you don't relate completely to emotivist, it is evidence of being Ne > Ti subtype LII (in 2 subtype system). Ne subtype is anywhere from not being able to decide between emotivist/contructivist to somewhat associating with emotivist (me). Ti-LII is almost always going to relate strongly to emotivist. If you instead strongly relate to constructivist, that might be a problem as far as reinen is concerned.

    Here are the reinen dichotomies that each of the 32 (16X2) types will relate the strongest to.
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ted-edits.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    All the LIIs I know dislike change.
    Being an LII myself, I'm gonna qualify your statement.
    I don't dislike change, per se. I like change when I'm the one initiating it, when I have control over the outcome. What I dislike is when people thrust unexpected changes on me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Same. Alpha as a whole seems pretty change-averse IME. Which makes it funny when they talk about how loves novelty and what not, when in practice it isn't true at all. The most boringly routine, tasteless, stagnant people I've known were typically Alpha—usually NT. The SFs aren't as bad about it at least.
    I haven't noticed that at all except maybe with some LIIs. I think subtype makes a difference too. Normalizing is probably the most change averse; creative is probably the least. I've never known an ILE to be change averse.


    Quote Originally Posted by Crispy View Post
    Reinin dichotomies are true, but some of their meanings are vague.

    One of the better examples of Emotivist vs. Constructivist is the amount of times you can watch the same movie. When I watch a movie (which is rare) it's usually because I could tell from the preview it had a new concept for it's story or something similar. Also I usually never watch a movie more than once or twice (exceptions are masterpieces like Joe Dirt ). This would make me an emotivist. My SLI sister is known for having a favorite movie at a given span of time (usually weeks) where she watches it again and again every few days (up to 10-20 times), hence constructivist.
    I've never been really clear where I stand on this dichotomy. There are some movies I can watch multiple times (when I was young, I used to have a couple of favorites that I'd watch repeatedly to the point of having them practically memorized) but for most movies, once is enough. I think watching them 10-20 times is kind of excessive. If I rewatch a movie, there's usually quite a bit of space between viewings, on the order of months or years rather than days.

    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    I would not say that Alphas are averse to change, but are merely creatures of habit seeking refuge in known comforts and pleasures. So I think it is proper not to call Alphas change-averse without first examining the nature of the change itself, as one would likely find all types and quadras resistant to certain types of change.
    I agree with this. For myself, I find myself both seeking refuge in known comforts and pleasures as well as seeking new ones. I think this is why I have trouble placing myself on the constructivist/emotivist dichotomy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crispy View Post
    If you don't relate completely to emotivist, it is evidence of being Ne > Ti subtype LII (in 2 subtype system). Ne subtype is anywhere from not being able to decide between emotivist/contructivist to somewhat associating with emotivist (me). Ti-LII is almost always going to relate strongly to emotivist. If you instead strongly relate to constructivist, that might be a problem as far as reinen is concerned.

    Here are the reinen dichotomies that each of the 32 (16X2) types will relate the strongest to.
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ted-edits.html
    Its best to know your placing on all the dichotomies, not just a single one for subtype analysis to be useful. While my difficulty with constructivism/emotivism might suggest I'm Ne subtype, I'm also conflicted on strategy/tactics. I set goals but my goals are more vague and general rather than so clear-cut. Ti-LIIs are more LSI like (LSI is tactical) and Ne-LIIs are more EII like (EII is strategic). So I have problematic dichotomies pointing towards both subtypes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by warrior-librarian View Post
    Its best to know your placing on all the dichotomies, not just a single one for subtype analysis to be useful. While my difficulty with constructivism/emotivism might suggest I'm Ne subtype, I'm also conflicted on strategy/tactics. I set goals but my goals are more vague and general rather than so clear-cut. Ti-LIIs are more LSI like (LSI is tactical) and Ne-LIIs are more EII like (EII is strategic). So I have problematic dichotomies pointing towards both subtypes.
    That's a bit strange. It might help to look at the dichotomies from the four-letter code point of view.
    tactical types are NP or SJ, strategical types are NJ or SP.
    constructivists are TP or FJ, emotivists are TJ or FP.
    From this you can derive your own personal definition of the distinctions between the two, and it should become much easier to decide which you are closest to.

    I just use ego block information elements to explain them: Tactical always Accepts Intuition or Produces Sensation. Strategical always Produces Intuition or Accepts Sensation. Constructivists always Produces Logic or Accepts Feeling and Emotivist always Accepts Logic or Produces Feeling.

    EDIT: Actually looking at those again it's probably because you are on the line between rational/irrational. I wonder if H-LII's have different dichotomies than the Ne-LII in the 2 subtype system.
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    Constructivist - inert Ethics, contact Logic
    Emotivist - inert Logic, contact Ethics

    Tactical - inert Intuition, contact Sensing
    Strategical - inert Sensing, contact Intuition

    Inert (reference) functions - rather rigid in their work, they are almost immune to internal changes. They require an external impulse of sufficient strength to them that something has changed. They are characterized by fairly long response, and often commit the state to which led the external impact. Thus they tend towards relative permanence.
    Contact functions are very mobile and able to well manage their internal state. It is through them that a primary reaction to the impact from the outside happens (?). They produce an initial processing of information received, they also generate a final decision. Thus, their activity is determined by what happens around or current tasks, among which they can easily switch.

    It makes much more sense to me this way than through combination of Jungian dichotomies.
    Last edited by Aiss; 09-19-2010 at 11:02 AM.

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    Tons of bullshit about alpha NTs in this thread. It's not even worth adressing any of it. Just look around on this forum. The most radical theorists with the wildest ideas are all INTjs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton
    Same. Alpha as a whole seems pretty change-averse IME. Which makes it funny when they talk about how loves novelty and what not, when in practice it isn't true at all. The most boringly routine, tasteless, stagnant people I've known were typically Alpha—usually NT. The SFs aren't as bad about it at least.
    In as far as there is any truth to this, this is actually a direct manifestation of that Ne. Ne seeks the novel and inspiring, but it also steers away from the boring and trite. If an Alpha NT ever behaves routinously or formal to you, it means they rejected you first.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    Tons of bullshit about alpha NTs in this thread. It's not even worth adressing any of it. Just look around on this forum. The most radical theorists with the wildest ideas are all INTjs.
    Absolutely.

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    change is unrelated to quadra. most anybody will welcome a change that they bring about themselves and avoid a change they see as being thrust upon them, especially if it hasn't been properly explained or sold to them.

    change is age related though. the older you get, the less flexible you are likely to become unless you take steps to maintain some flexibility.

    type preferences are relatively unchanging. if you want to give me a whole lotta Fi i'm going to be pretty rigid about that. if you give me lots of Ne or Si or Fe or Ti....i'm going to be very receptive indeed.

    so, truth be told ashton: alphas just don't like your ideas about change.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crispy View Post

    EDIT: Actually looking at those again it's probably because you are on the line between rational/irrational. I wonder if H-LII's have different dichotomies than the Ne-LII in the 2 subtype system.
    It makes more sense now that I've looked over the Easy to Use Behavior Tracker. Ne-LII is more EII like and Ti-LII is more LSI.

    EII is:
    Judicious
    Strategy (undecided)
    Calculating
    Artistocratic
    Process
    Positivist (undecided)
    Narrator
    Serious
    Compliant (undecided)
    Construct-Creating (undecided)
    Static

    LSI is:
    Decisive
    Tactical (undecided)
    Carefree
    Aristocratic
    Process
    Positivist (undecided)
    Narrator
    Merry
    Obstinate (undecided)
    Emotion-Creating (undecided)
    Static

    I bolded the ones I agree with.

    With EII, I have three bolded and 4 undecided. With LSI, I have two bolded and 4 undecided. So, EII wins by a narrow margin. Kind of too close to call if you ask me.

    I will say, that setting dichotomies aside, I identify alot more with the EII description than the LSI one.

    I don't think the dichotomies should be different for H-LII than for Ne-LII. I think H-LII is more similar to Ne-LII than Ti-LII. Both are producing subs, both are irrational. Both have strengthened N but with the H subtype its Ni rather than Ne. I think C-LII is probably the most Ne-LII like. I see H-LII is being somewhat more balanced with a tendency towards Ne.

    Likewise, I see N-LII and D-LII correlating to Ti-LII. N-LII being the most obviously Ti-LII like and D-LII being so to a lesser degree. That's my understanding of it anyway.
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



  31. #31
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