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Thread: ISFj description by Stratiyevskaya

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    Default ISFj description by Stratiyevskaya

    BLOCK EGO * the 1st position * program function * the "ethics of relations"
    Dreiser's program places by its task first of all to reveal the existing negative ethical tendencies and to fight remove to their complete eradication. In view of these reasons for Dreiser are acceptable only those relations, in which it sees for itself and for the society the smallest probability of troubles.

    Possibly therefore all "drayzerovskiye" commandments are so categorical and include in precisely that, what to man cannot be made.

    Most frequently interrelations with the people in Dreiser are constructed on two commandments: "do not make with other of that, what you do not desire to itself" and "an eye for an eye, tooth for the tooth". I.e., if man made to you nothing poor, you do not have a right to it badly to relate, but if you in it assume the ability to complete bad act, your right to him not to entrust, and, moreover, your responsibility - to warn others. If we do not understand this motivation, can be formed opinion about Dreiser as about the gossiper, "adoring to wash up again bones by other". Although precisely representatives of this type with their innate understanding, which such "is good", and which - "is bad", and also with their complex of the "expectation of unpleasant consequences" to suffer they cannot gossip either about others, or about itself, considering slander the matter unworthy and dangerous, warning - these are their holy right and responsibility, and they are always ready and know how to defend it.

    Sometimes, because of the weak intuition and the logicians, Dreiser itself suffers from the limitedness of its own ethical program. For example, if we say to it: "4 indeed to you nothing poor it made, why you to me do not entrust?", then he begins to realize, that his behavior contradicts his own principles. I.e., it "punishes" man even to the misdeed and, after realizing this, Dreiser it enters very improvidently - it makes possible for itself to be frank with the man, who in it does not cause confidence (which, as a rule, turns around for it by large troubles).

    To the happiness for themselves, the representatives of this type sufficiently early begin to understand their natural advantage (and no one they make possible him to dispute) - the skill to see in the man predisposition to bad behavior, skill to see the ethical potential of the surrounding people.

    Dreiser - splendid physiognomist, it is exceptionally observant, capable on hardly by perceptible, only to it one to noticeable signs to compose very precise idea about the nature of man and about the motives of his behavior.

    Each person, his for the first time proven to be in field sight, Dreiser as "prepares" by his penetrating, "X-ray" view, under which almost no one itself feels comfortably. The most precise idea about "etichnosti" of man, about the motives of his behavior is added in Dreiser precisely according to the first impression.

    In the prevailing negative opinion it, as a rule, does not make mistakes, but even if it agrees to forego the initial impression, then only in order once more itself to recheck. (after allotting this its valuable quality, nature seemingly it would apologize itself for the fact that so it shared unfairly by intuition and logic.)

    Using this his natural panel, Dreiser constructs relations with the people very carefully, even nastorozhenno. It irritates it, when to its this property they contradict against alternative "original friendliness to all without the exception". Its this installation brings down to sense, since it does not contradict its ethical principles, but it is at the same time for it dangerous, since it makes it necessary to forget about its strong qualities and to substitute weak under the impact.

    Dreiser frequently produces the impression of man of that locked and nekommunikabel'nogo. Actually, he better itself feels in the customary and checked environment. And being only subordinated to circumstances, it literally forces itself to expand the circle of its acquaintances.

    Dreiser always knows, as they relate to it, always feels relation to itself. Always feels lie, falsity and hypocrisy both with respect to itself and with respect to others.

    With the maximalism characteristic of it, in which be reflected all its firm ethical principles, Dreiser prefers to maintain relations only with those people, which he completely corresponds to his moral criteria. And even if is created impression, that he presents the too steep demands to its environment, Dreiser is not capable to decrease them, as it about this they did not request.

    It does not see and does not present itself out of the system of its own moral values. Council "there be you simpler!" - not for it. The situation of "amorous triangle" for it is absolutely unacceptable. Thought itself about the inaccuracy to its husband seems it blasphemous - it and itself will not allow inaccuracy with respect to itself and will not allow itself to repulse partner in other.

    The concept of "sexual freedoms" allows only as the region of erotic fantasies. (I that not for itself.) But in the real life neither for itself nor for its partner of this it will allow: it is too proud in order to divide it even with someone.

    In the relations it is very sequential, fundamental. Maximalist. Of loves, to friendship it returns completely. Returns everything which has, and even that, what it does not have. (it can take loan in order to pay the debts of its friend)

    It is touchingly responsive to the sincere interest in itself. And this is understandable: indeed to its "X-ray" view those surrounding react, in essence, by the negative relation, which he always very sharply feels and to which gets accustomed as to something constant in its life. Therefore to the sincere arrangement to itself it considers as its duty to answer by reciprocity. But if it notes that someone misuses by its arrangement, without the regret it parts from this person. Dreiser for long remembers evil and tries to break all relations with the fact, who although once caused troubles to it. Sometimes he can support the visibility of contact, although no longer there exists in reality for it of this person.

    In a constant tendency "to eradicate entire evil on the earth" (which in the conditions of psychological discomfort is concentrated precisely on the nearest environment), Dreiser is is too fast on "ethical violence". However, he, as no one, knows how with the first suspicion "to shut to the wall" his "accused", leaving to it not least chance to justify. (A at the same time, and itself the lichen of the possibility to develop relations positively.)

    Dreiser adores "to explain relations" (, in addition, the consequence of weak intuition), in the case of psychological discomfort or protracted crisis of relations he can specially provoke quarrel in order to obtain additional data for the reinforcement of its own observations and for the complete confidence, that to it they relate precisely in the manner that he this feels.

    Distrustful by its nature, it with difficulty "is charmed": however it loved, no matter how it was attached, never is shut eye to deficiencies in the man - indeed this is the possible source of future troubles.

    Dreiser generally little to whom sympathizes with (too much it sees). It is sufficiently difficult to attain its confidence, to cause to the frankness. (although it it blabs much excess unnoticeably for itself, since, as all sensoriki, for itself it unnoticeably speaks out maximally concretely). But even namerenno making possible for itself to be entrusted to someone, Dreiser never excludes the possibility that they will abuse by his revelation: first, he understands, what mutual frankness - an indispensable condition (or responsibility) for friendly relations, in the second place, fears to offend man by distrust, and thirdly, it sometimes feels itself sufficient to strong and capable to withstand in any, ethical complex situation (in that case, if its "secrets" they become known surrounding).

    Dreiser principally does not desire to be interested in negative opinion about himself, since he always error-free knows, who and as relates to it. Furthermore, it does not assume after itself poor behavior, since in everything it follows its first "program" ethical commandment. For the same reason he tries to ignore gossips - this "ethical rubbish", which does not deserve its attention. Extremely it is irritated, when it is forced to listen negative opinion about itself: "no, you listen to, that about you they speak!.." - is considered this as cruelty, stupidity and straight violence above itself ("yes little whether who it gossips!").

    Is still more terrible for it the situation, in which to it are incriminated some mythical misdeeds and in which it is forced to be justified (do not give god still publicly!) it is incomprehensible in what sins; such for Dreiser is completely intolerably and leads into the extreme irritation.

    In the everyday contact Dreiser tries to hold distant psychological distance almost with entire his environment. Trying to avoid unpleasant society, it can insulate itself from the "hostile" surrounding peace, from time to time, voluntarily locking itself "into the monastery". (sometimes even for long years - an example It brizhit grains.)

    Dreiser prefers to associate only with the small circle of his close, checked friends. But this concerns his only personal contact, his personal sympathies and preferences. "strangers" - this those, who do not cause in it confidence and in whose society he feels psychological discomfort. In view of the weak intuition of possibilities and specific limitedness of the life experience to Dreiser to sometimes characteristically divide people into "its" and "strangers" according to the ethnic or mental sign, but that is more terrible and sicker for it the disappointment, when it in "its" circles meets "strange" people, which relate to it they hostilely and misuse by its confidence. In the final analysis the division on "its" and "strangers" in Dreiser very conditionally and during his entire life undergoes many changes.

    Dreiser greatly does not love, when his friendships are solicited by force. It fears people, which "climb into the soul with the master key" (although most frequently precisely "to the master key" it is opened). It does not love, when they attempt by it to manipulate. It does not love, when in it they seize the "ethical initiative". Interrelations between the people the basic region of its interests and observations, the object of constant reflections and analysis. For this very reason it so izbiratelen in the selection of friends and partners. Only its dual the jack, subconsiously oriented to the analogous ethical values, corresponds to drayzerovskomu idea about the friendship. (even then not always!)

    Block EGO * 2-4 positions * creative function * "volitional sensorika"
    Dreiser knows how and it can subordinate people to the system of its ethical and moral values, which composes entire sense of its existence. It least of all is inclined to remain the strange observer of the ethical problems of society. Therefore actively it fights with any deviations from the moral and moral standards, than gained to itself the glory of the "militant moralist".

    Representatives of this type consider as their duty to reveal entire the evil, which is revealed in their surrounding space. To expose public defects, to fight with the criminality, the disturbance of public morals; to fight for the universal prosperity, for the cleanliness of moral standards, for the restoration of validity, for the ecology of environment - its first-rate occupation.

    Dreiser hates the organized evil and the solid good ("martial virtue") always attempts to contradict against him: "... if people vicious are connect together and compose force, then to people honest it is necessary to make only the same" (Leo Tolstoy.)

    Dreiser hates very principle of the organized violence "as it is possible to unite evil?! - indeed this is monstrous! This means to prepare catastrophe and to cause to mountain for many people this necessary to suppress - evil must be punished!"

    Dreiser hates the Mafia in any manifestation of it ("the commissioner of rolling"). None of the representatives of this type not will be never occupied by mafioznym business. Very type of man -mafiozi, who is approached by all truth- untruths to be opened authority and to use its goods in order to subordinate to its will of others, are caused in Dreiser the deepest antipathy and the irritation, which it even within the framework of decency cannot hold in control. Dreiser and Mafia are incompatible. (reason, which convincingly excludes the belonging of Joseph kobzon (Dreiser) to any Mafia)

    Of Dreiser is characteristic high exactingness both of itself and of surrounding in all aspects of his life in the friendship, in the love, in the business relations, in the work - in everything equal, frequently overstated, requirement both for itself and for others.

    Responsibility for its words, behavior, for the appeared feelings, for the data of promise, for "those, whom you tamed", for the quality of the carried out work. Responsibility before the association, the associates, the relatives and the family... But very great responsibility - before itself itself.

    Exceptional fitness for work and pedantic industriousness is characteristic for Dreiser. (Dreiser it returns to work the maximum efforts, and if we from it require an even larger return, this rapidly it leads to the overvoltage and the nervous disruption, which will sharply worsen the quality of work, and relation with the authorities.)

    The motive motives of all its efforts are dictated by precisely ethical aspect and are expressed by the slogan: "make for others in the manner that you want so that they would make for you".

    Dreiser does not love to assign strangers on the solution of his problems, it prefers to manage by his own forces - what this it not cost. But also it does not sympathize with to those, who usually solves his problems for the strange calculation. Attachment by others of its problems is considered unethical and tactless. In its understanding this disrespect to the strange free time, to the right of man to the leisure. For the same reason he tries no one not to tie his society, even to the closest friends, even if to it it is very lonely.

    Required. If the undertaken itself obligation cannot carry out in view of objective reasons, greatly it suffers. For the same reason it does not love to take into the debt or to buy on credit - it is disturbed, that it will not be able in time to return.

    Under the conditions for neutral relations it is polite, disciplined, pulled and the same it requires from others: indeed it is not possible to irritate those surrounding by rough manners, causing behavior and neestetichnym form.

    In the house he tries to maintain cleanliness and order (it considers it inadmissible to start the domestic matters - is considered this as optionality with respect to other members of family). Even if beret some work to the house, tries to first make all domestic matters in order then quietly to sit down at the work.

    Going out, compulsorily after itself it will put in order everything - to it it is unpleasant to return to the nepribrannuyu apartment. After the withdrawal of guests, in the same evening it will wash up entire dishes, will wipe and will arrange on the places. It will thoroughly clean entire apartment and only it will allow itself to rest after this. It greatly irritate, for example, such trifles, as crumbs on the table or spots on the floor, the scattered clothing, "obstructions" on the writing desk. It will put off its most pressing matters for eliminating these "stimuli", and at a convenient time it can strictly pronounce by relative for the irresponsible relation to the order in the house.

    The need for suffering disorder in its house suppresses it to such an extent, which can even be occasion for the divorce.

    Dreiser irritate any deviations from established by it in their house order. (even this, for example, trifle: if the food, which it will give, eats itself not in that order, in which it this planned, its this already irritates.) His irritation Dreiser suppresses only in the society of duala of jack - only to him even somehow makes possible to disrupt order in the house, but also that in the reasonable limits. (otherwise, this it will cost Dreiser too heavy expense of time and forces, that it will here estimate as disrespect to its labor, and for which from the jack immediately "strictly it will exact itself".)

    Creative volitional sensorika of Dreiser especially vividly is manifested in the extreme situation - with the protection of his interests and the main thing with the protection of the interests of its interrelations. Dreiser no one makes possible to encroach on his interrelations. Greatly it does not love, if someone specifies its friends - it prefers itself at everything to be dismantled. For the same reason he tries not to give occasion to speak badly about itself. No one it makes possible to quarrel itself with the friend. For the friend, for the dear person it will go into the fire and the water, without discussing and without considering the dangers.

    It guards its interrelations from the attacks from the side, does not make it possible to render on itself volitional pressure.

    When to Dreiser they attempt to show undesirable action or display undesirable ethical initiative, it is capable to give the rebuff of improbable force. (sometimes after this incident in it remains unpleasant sediment - he feels, that it overstated the measure of defense, "shot the gun on the sparrow". But in any event, last word without fail must remain after it: and otherwise, whatever it was "sensorik"?) It is very obstinate, unwillingly changes its opinion. Sometimes, feeling the hostile mood of those surrounding, Dreiser can begin "to protect" even before it "attacked", but then it almost immediately notes its injustice and are experienced the most severe pangs cower ". Dreiser cannot first attack this it contradicts his ethical program.

    BLOCK Of superego*e-ya position * normative function * the "logic of systems"
    Dreiser it always is desirable to produce the impression of man of reasonable and being sober-minded. Moreover, it greatly it is desirable to be the same and it entire life this learns.

    Dreiser tries to check his feelings by reason and to logically analyze entire proceeding with it, but this in it badly is obtained.

    Greatly respects in the people the skill to clearly and laconically present its thought same this it for long and unsuccessful learns.

    Any studied phenomenon, theory or object tries to understand in the essence, to decompose "on the shelves", to find in it some regularity. It successfully learns only employing the clearly developed and accessibly presented procedures. But if object teaches chaotically, it is confused, it is inconsistent, some by the improvised thematics "with a constant change of procedures or with the complete absence of the same - for it this is the catastrophe: this instruction it does not receive, it falls into the number of laggards, very it survives because of this, it falls into panic and despondency.

    With the age Dreisers become are especially legible in the selection of teachers and methods of the formation, whose level they during entire their life constantly increase: they seize several professions (by not necessarily adjacent), in which they consider it necessary to attain the high professional level. But since the improvement of craftsmanship requires a constant deepening into the theory, studies by them is received as the most constant and most natural in the life process.

    Dreisers try to be logical and sequential in the account of their arguments. Therefore they think over them previously and they present on the points: "first, in the second place, thirdly...". But already on "fourthly" and "fifthly" they differ from the assigned theme, on "sixthly" and "in- sevenths" they repeat and vary the previous arguments, and with the collision with the "program" or "creative" logician (especially from opposite kvadry) entire their such "ordered" and "thought-out" concept is pulled down even on the first point.

    Logician Dreiser it does not maintain collisions also with those, in whom this aspect is located on even the weaker positions - for example, with irrational ethical ekstravertami - Caesar and Huxley, when the logical sequence of dispute not at all soblyudayetsya, but conversation constantly jumps over to the personal "dismantlings". Usual output for Dreiser in this situation to in time see the inexpediency of further discussion (which to it is given by the price of enormous stress throughout entire block SUPEREGO), and, wholly relying on its "volitional sensoriku", to leave the dispute, trying in this case no one (as far as possible) not to offend.

    As a result of such "disputes" in Dreisers is corrected the idea about its own "logical potential" and they with the an even larger zeal and with attention begin to relate to its development. (since they do not consider itself in this question absolutely hopeless, although they understand, that the profession of philosopher and theorist - not for them.)

    Logical relationships for Dreiser are not so important as ethical. Therefore in the interests of the ethics of relations it can distort facts, it can manipulate by them, which causes some complications in the initial stage of its dualization with the jack. But jack it subsequently understands, that one ought not to cavil to some logical errors in Dreiser, and it carries its "logical" information by the aspect of ethics, understands, that after the logical information of Dreiser cost only his ethical motives. (I Dreiser to it for this understanding is very grateful.)

    Block Of superego*ya-ya the pozitsiya*Mobilizatsionnaya function * the "intuition of possibilities"
    It is manifested in a constant presentiment of the troubles, which Dreiser expects everywhere and from all. To him it is difficult to be foresighted, to see situation in the development. Its own possibilities in what, even in the very, it would seem, situation winning for itself count it cannot. Frequently (if it is not constant) is experienced the sensation of endlessness.

    On the successes, the successes and the failures does not discuss for it this too sick a theme. It does not transfer, when they cite as an example the strange successes: receives this as reproach in its address.

    Dreiser never is contented by the results of his work. How much not it made, it considers that all this is negligibly small. What not it attained - everything seems it that its creative potential insufficiently realized.

    To Dreiser it is incredibly difficult to find use to its abilities. Constant sensation of its own nevostrebovannosti - for it the most agonizing torture. Dreiser is not capable for himself to request - it is too proud, and, furthermore, it considers this something mean and wrong with respect to others.

    Experiences terrible awkwardness every time that it is forced to answer the questions: "that you can?", "that you know how?" And nevertheless Dreiser knows how so much, also, at this high professional level, which is simply difficult to believe into this (because it and very inconvenient about this to tell). Dreiser's desire to realize its abilities is such strong that it constantly increases its professional level, working in its all accessible to it and interesting regions. Dreiser is not agreeable with the fact that "it is not possible to serve two gods simultaneously". For it it is characteristic "to outgrow by specialties": if is not occurred the possibilities to realize themselves in one profession, it masters another, but the habits of the previous specialty he tries to support at the professional level - little whether it will prove useful.

    It is not capable to open to itself road of the success by dishonest methods. To collide obstacles by forehead, to work by elbows, to fight for the work "as for the bone", to obtain it "through divanchik" - all this not for it, all this its lower than merit. Dreiser considers that ability and talents - this God gift, therefore, and realized them must be by honest methods, but not according to the law of jungle. In the competition, where the conqueror is previously known, Dreiser, as a rule, does not participate. Dreiser generally badly himself feels under the conditions of the unhealthy competition: "in the expectation of hearing I felt itself as in the turn after the free soup. All around unemployed, unemployed musicians, eye in all evil, hungry. It was necessary to come out before its competitors, and this is maximally difficult - physically you oshchushchayesh' their envy and hostility, indeed each considers this competition as its last chance... "

    In the situation of unhealthy competition Dreiser cannot work. It does not love, when they envy to it. Itself tries not to excite in the people the envy (to excite in the people low feelings it considers it unethical); therefore usually sufficiently modestly he tells about its achievements. For the same reason it frequently experiences difficulties in the searches for work, in the searches for order, engagement. It is profitable to sell its work - for it the simply impracticable task. Sometimes it is sincerely glad, if by its services they use gift nevertheless some vostrebovannost'.

    To Dreiser it is difficult to count its possibilities. It can pass before the easy problem, but in this case it is swung back to the supercomplicated, it will make work of the highest class, but it will not decide to report it to the spectator.

    In spite of his ethical insight Dreiser frequently makes mistakes in the selection of friends, advisers or partners. Chance frequently gives precisely to that, who misuses by its confidence, its friendship, its feelings. It is easy to swindle him: "to sign" to the originally doomed project, to the adventurous experiment, to hire to the combined with the risk, unfavorable work. It with the ease it is possible "to substitute", it more frequent than others becomes the victim of shady transactions and speculations. Because of this Dreiser tries to be especially careful in his behavior, words, solutions and interrelations. (from other side, the more it ostorozhnichayet, the greater the stress and hostilitys it are created in its own environment, and the less it leaves chances for itself.)

    Many problems reach to it the incapacity in time to foresee and it is correct to estimate likely danger, and also inability is correct to calculate its forces which unavoidably leads to the overloads, nervous disruptions, failures on the examinations and the appearances, in consequence of which, he feels itself by the final unlucky wretch.

    Since its own success is given to it with the price of incredible, hard labor, it (as Maxim) always irritates and agitates easy success in others, itself it (it understands!) it does not believe in the easy success, and the self-confidence of some lucky upstarts always unpleasantly catches it.

    Dreiser (just as Maxim) they hold in constant stress uncertainty and uncertainty of his position in the system of any relations - and in the business and in the ethical. Therefore the explanation of relations for it quite first priority occupation, moreover to that not determined "yes" Dreiser prefers that determined "no".

    There is nothing more terrible for Dreiser than the forced expectation and idleness under the conditions of the sheerest uncertainty and uncertainty. , let us compare the horror, which it in this case experiences, only with the desperation of person, buried alive, although the erroneous impression is created in others at this moment, that Dreiser panics on the trifles.

    (Drayzerovskaya panic easily stops itself by the shout of his duala of the jack: "well, how much it is possible to panic?!!" - Dreiser immediately beret "himself into the hands", will mobilize his force of will, and here he is already ready to new tests.)

    Dreiser very painfully survives unforeseen disappointments - if abolishes the long-awaited holiday, is torn away the meeting assigned or is destroyed the created with it romantic situation. It for long remembers similar, trying not to hence construct illusions.

    Dreisers prefer not to be connected with extravagant and unpredictable in their behavior people. Reaching one with them company, rapidly begin to oshchushchat' danger and needlessness of their here stay, they try faster to leave. (Child- Dreisers in the analogous situation becomes unbearable sad, and they without the visible reason begin to cry. Frequently they prefer to be held apart from other children, do not love games with the unpleasant surprises, do not love foolish, severe drawings.)

    It is noted that Dreiser especially does not love to walk according to the doctors: even if there is some danger for the health, they prefer about it not to know. It does not love medical examinations and inspections: to it it is unpleasant, when in it some physical flaws see. (subconsious connection from its weak sensorikoy duala of jack)

    The forced need for guarding itself from the troubles, eternal self-control, a constant restraint and self-restriction - all this in the final analysis pours out into the sensation of the incompleteness of life, the regret, which passes by the most interesting.

    This state Dreiser can leave only with the aid of his duala - jack. Only jack can realize his cancelled dreams. Only it with its fantasy, love of life, optimism, healthy adventurism and inexhaustible energy is capable to pull out Dreiser from the captivity of his eternal chimerical it is insurance.

    With the aid of the jack Dreiser ceases to oshchushchat' his insipidness and needlessness in this peace. For Dreiser jack - this is overcoming the deadlock to fresh air, to the bright paints of life. In the person of jack it finally finds the desired ideal of love and friendship. The jack - only, to which Dreiser feels boundless confidence; whose devotion itself does not doubt and it does not make possible to doubt for others.

    THE BLOCK OF SUPERID*SHCH-YA POSITION * IS SUGGESTIVE OF FUNCTIONS * "BUSINESS LOGIC"
    Dreiser greatly respects people with the clearly expressed business (in its understanding) qualities: honest toilers, masters "to all hands", capable of improving and of rationalizing the labor process.

    Subconsiously Dreiser is oriented to the business logic of jack; therefore he always notes and condemns some useless and ineffective method of operations. Just as jack, Dreiser considers that the business problems must be solved "in the root", but as the not some particular half-measures, but in view of the fact that in it this aspect falls on the most passive mental function, to it difficult to undertake in this region independent operations - is here for it necessary the aid of duala.

    With the aid of the jack Dreiser can realize himself in practice, find to himself a worthy use, find occupation from the abilities. In the person of jack he obtains the defender of his business interests.

    Dreiser it is very operational. It knows how to work effectively and concentratedly. It rapidly masters new specialties. It knows how and loves to work with the complete return. It is very important for Dreiser so that the work would correspond to his creative and intellectual potential. It is important so that in the work there would be the possibility of professional growth, increasing the qualification. Work must be both for the mind and for the soul simultaneously. If the carried out work does not realize its potential, it changes profession.

    Attempting to independently solve his business problems, Dreiser frequently accomplishes error, substituting the aspect of "business logic" by the aspect of the "business relations", which, as it counts, are obligated to be deeply ethical.

    So, being mastered in the production, he tries as it is possible less to be turned for help to his master. This explains by the fact that Dreiser is subconsiously disposed to the business logic of the jack, which does not love, when to it each minute they are turned for the explanations and the requests about the aid, and greatly values in the colleague the tendency at everything to be dismantled independently.

    Dreiser, in turn, subconsiously feels, which to him as if "is inconvenient" each time to tear off others from the work; therefore it he tries to manage with its own forces how sometimes is created impression the "too proud" of man.

    In view of excessive delicacy (and of weak intuition) to Dreiser it is difficult be occupied to independently by business - difficultly to assign and "to hold" its price; the relations, when the benefit of one side turns around by loss for another, are difficult. He tries to avoid such relations.

    For the same reason it prefers and not to deal about the price - considers this humiliating and for itself, and for the salesman: indeed, probably salesman simply cannot sell more cheaply; therefore is assigned this price and it is so many necessary to pay. It can not want to buy, also, on the sharply decreased price - it means, previous price was clearly overstated, which means, salesman generally bad person and does not deserve that with it they would deal!

    To Dreiser it is difficult to request addition to the salary: it considers that the employer must itself estimate his labor and worthy to reward it, but if this it does not occur, which means, either boss hopeless meager person or - firm burns down. In any event it is necessary to search for another place, that it makes.

    In the matters of business Dreiser is not strong, and entire life he uses the most primitive collection of the stereotype solutions: it is not obtained to earn necessary to economize, it is not obtained to make very necessary to hire specialist, there is no money to pay his services - it is necessary to suffer inconveniences and to accumulate money.

    Business grasp Dreisers do not have. Pragmatism is examined by them as something unethical and opposite to their program. (for the same reason by them sufficiently difficult to sympathize with to its dualam to jacks in the initial stage of relations or in the sphere of opposite business interests - here they they feel itself by small small fry before the mouth of shark.)

    To Dreiser it is necessary to constantly obtain information on the aspect of business logic. It compulsorily must know the clear and not contradicting its ethical program answers to questions "that make?" and "as to make?". And only its dual jack can give to it all indications and all explanations in that form, which will completely satisfy it. (because subconsiously, as it was already said, Dreiser it was disposed to the business logic of jack, on him "alternative pragmatism".)

    The business problems of Dreiser are solved only "in one command" with the jack. And do not give god to it to prove to be with your dualom "on the different side of barricades", to compete with it or to divide opposite interests - sheerest failure is provide ford.

    Dreiser's problems are not solved with the aid of the "business logicians" of another psychological type, but only they are aggravated.

    Block OF SUPERID*'-YA the pozitsiya*Aktivatsionnaya function * the "intuition of time"
    Time - this is that aspect, which Dreiser would want to ignore. Time - enemy of sensoriki. A deficiency in the time it prevents from making work of flawlessly beautiful. Time steals its forces, beauty, youth, possibilities (especially touchy subject!). Time brings some, not always pleasant changes, to which it is necessary also, it is unknown as, to be adapted, but time again is required to this.

    Dreiser prefers to work slowly, thoroughly studying details, but (if this to someone is necessary) can work and it is very intensive, making on several matters simultaneously, without resting, but being only switched from one work to another.

    Best method to activate Dreiser to appoint to it clear "time frame". Depending on the assigned period Dreiser plans the volume of work, and the degree of prorabotannosti of details. Therefore to him it is always important to know, for what quantity of time it can design, trying in this case to consider the unforeseen expenditure of time.

    In the sufficiently saturated time behavior Dreiser feels his vostrebovannost'. But it is best anything, when to it "assigns rates" its dual - only it can make this taking into account the problematic intuition of Dreiser, who underestimates or who overestimates the tempos of his work.

    On the prompt of jack Dreiser evaluates the urgency of the assigned work, is adjusted slightly under the saturated working rhythm of jack and under the "temporary voids" him is forced noy of unemployment, filling with some their its, long ago put aside matters.

    Dreiser suffer cannot the unproductive expenditure of time - he does not love to await and to him it is unpleasant to make it necessary to await others: therefore he tries to be punctual. To it quite its own punctuality is given by the price of the overexpenditure of time (consequence of the weak intuition of possibilities) - to it it is difficult to calculate the quantity of time, required for the road, taking into account different transport unexpected contingencies.

    Dreiser does not love to spend time on the unplanned contact ("to the unexpected arrival and prolonged it prisest") - one additional reason, for which Dreiser limits the circle of his acquaintances.

    Dreiser values its time, since this not only one of the values of its dyad, this kvadrovaya value - tendency to make as much as possible, the tendency to realize its potential. All this makes time factor for Dreiser that especially meant.

    BLOCK ID * THE 7TH POSITION * OBSERVANT FUNCTION * THE "ETHICS OF EMOTIONS"
    In the tendency to avoid unpleasant ethical relations Dreiser first of all is concentrated in the observation of negative emotions. Positive emotions to him to observe is less interesting - it to them either does not believe or it does not carry by its calculation.

    Dreiser will recognize the emotional state of each, who falls in the field of his observations, but (and in this his difference from Dostoyevsky) he is interested only in those emotions, which concern his personal interrelations. (to be, for example, the strange observer of scandals in the public place for it it is unpleasant and it is uninteresting. Another matter, when it becomes their involuntary participant... Possibly therefore Dreisers, sometimes unexpectedly for itself, and they are pulled into such scandals.)

    By themselves intrigues, gossips, dismantlings in the association of Dreiser do not interest - only in such a case, when this has to it direct relation. To it nevertheless, who winks with whom (but this to it is always evident). The main thing as this relates directly to it or to its partner.

    It is very responsive to the strange pain and the suffering, but it does not love to comfort - it fears, that the sympathy can remind man about his pain once more, and thus formal condolence will force its once more it to survive even no longer it loves to express (sufferings, in the opinion of Dreiser, these are the discomfort, which must be as soon as possible left in the past, but inflated them something), but it forces itself, if that they require decency. He always tries soak by the matter. It considers that the sympathy, not reinforced by the concrete matter, unconvincingly and can be perceived as falsity.

    The same and with the expression of thanks: if we not for which thank, but the decency of that they require, effort makes above itself. But its more sincere "thanks" very is expensive. (Dreiser considers good behavior ethical standard, and bad - by deviation from the standard. Therefore evil remembers for long, and good considers by way of things - because of what as certain it seems thankless.)

    It is not capable namerenno to cause pain. Greatly it survives, if someone it accidentally forced to suffer. Under the effect of feelings it is inclined to sacrifice its interests. In the love and the friendship it is capable to exceptional emotional samootdachu, otherwise, for it it was impossible to convince this deeply ranimogo and constrained in the manifestation of his feelings partner as jack. (however, sometimes even jack it is forced to muffle the surplus of drayzerovskikh passions, especially, if this interfere withs its work) the partners of other psychological types the ardent sensuality of Dreiser it in no way inspires, sometimes even it frightens away - it somehow does not tally to its external coldness and inaccessibility.

    Dreiser no one makes possible to regulate the force of its emotions, how much not exists - everything him, and it does not please itself whom - let it search for to itself another partner. Dreiser does not transfer "emotional time-serving", he does not understand, how it is possible to adjust slightly its feelings under the mood of partner. This in its understanding - hypocrisy.

    Dreiser's mood can only automatically change depending on the mood of those surrounding, t e, to it it is possible to raise mood, and it is possible also to spoil. But itself it, as a rule, mood does not assign.

    Not "is bought" to the cheap compliments and the frank flattery. Itself not l'stit never, compliments he speaks very rarely, and being only sincerely enraptured by anything. In its understanding, to speak compliments - the same as to flatter Therefore it always fears, that its sincere admiration will be perceived as falsity. Mentally it always notes whose- that of merit, but it is not always decided to be expressed on this score aloud.

    It is very restrained in the expression of its sympathies, it fears to demonstratively express its emotions Therefore never it expresses more than he feels, although in its antipathies it is frank to the tactlessness, in this case its own tactlessness is considered completely permissible.

    Block ID*8-YA pozitsiya*Demonstrativnaya Function * "sensorika Of sensations"
    Purpose and the sense of drayzerovskoy sensoriki precisely in creating of the conditions of maximum comfort, cosiness and pleasure for its partner, and also fencing him from the discomfort in the pair jack - Dreiser sensory accordion is not end in itself, but comes out as part and an indispensable condition of the accordion of ethical, as if being the guarantee of harmonious interrelations.

    Creating his work, Dreiser always thinks about how his work will be received for example, it scrupulously studies details, since it assumes that its work they will want to examine near, whereas indeed must not spectator be thrown suddenly from his work only because he approached it too closely.

    The article of Dreiser's hands is characterized by refinement and by the perfection of details for this very reason it is more inclined to the miniature, than to the monumentality

    In the painting Dreiser does not love the too bright, irritating color combinations; therefore more successfully he works in the design or in the decorative- applied skill just as to Maxim, to it more easily to work on the ordered theme if this to someone is necessary, it this activates to the work.

    Cookery of Dreiser - refined taste with simplicity of components and minimum expenditures of time and resources. Dreisers know how to arrange methods on the highest discharge, trying in this case to surround guests by maximum comfort Dreiser it does not usually think, why he tries tax food in this form that very process of food would no longer present any difficulties (without the bones, without the rind, without the peas of pepper) but in reality this is explained by subconsious calculation for its duala of the jack, which during the food can be occupied by its work, watch TV or read newspaper and therefore it does not always note that it eats.

    In the clothing Dreiser values the combination of beauty, convenience and functionality Dreiser with elegant simplicity and refinement in view of weak intuition dresses, no eccentricity makes possible for itself, it does not misuse by decorative additions, generally, he tries not to assign on his clothing the views of strangers it prefers so that they would look at its face clothing - only framework of its own beauty.

    Knows how to create cosiness and comfort by the simplest means order and the cleanliness of accomodation an indispensable condition of its way of life before the output to the work Dreiser recent minutes will spend on the guidance of order so that it is compulsory to return to the clean apartment. This is very important for it.

    Loves the neperegruzhennyy interior. In the decorative additions it does not love sugariness (consequence of gabenov-skogo aesthetical training) frequently develops in itself the mass of artistic and musical talents, thanks to which it not boringly in private with itself (but to its dualu not boringly with it) in the skill Dreiser sees for himself the possibility to achieve deserved success by hard work - and here he at long last to it comes. For Dreiser is very important the appreciation to his skill. Therefore it prefers to demonstrate it only in the narrow to the circle of the closest friends. But first of all to it it is pleasant to gladden by its craftsmanship of precisely its partner.

    Dreisers are allotted by the natural (subconsious) ability to very accurately coordinate their sensory sensations relative to the sensations of partner - quality, which so values by their dualom and which reaches to them both much happiness.

    The sense of drayzerovskoy aesthetics is directly connected with its ethical program - comfortable nest for two. (its typical model - "crystal dream" - the pupa Of barbi in its comfortable house, together with its "prince".) Any work of skill, created with it, seemingly it vossozdayet this dream.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Default Re: ISFj description by Stratiyevskaya

    =)

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    Default Re: ISFj description by Stratiyevskaya

    Quote Originally Posted by maizemedley
    Thanks Expat. So, that part above. Here's how it hits me. I immediately want to ask: WHY? Why eye for an eye? What good will that do? Why do onto others as you would have done onto you? If makes sense in the long run, then yeah, I'll come around to adopting that ethic. But the feeling I get about Fi/Se is that they are so ultra sensitive to people's actions and they are quick to fight back. That little Se is a powerhouse of snide and quick and jabbing comments. The response to the hurt they feel...is immediate. They defend themselves and others damn well.
    The point is that ISFjs, with dominant and backed by , have complete confidence in their ethical principles. So if someone does something bad, s/he deserves to be punished. I don't think necessarily "eye for an eye", that depends on the particular ethics of each individual.

    I also think that that is where the stereotype of ISFjs as "gossiping" comes from -- I don't think they all gossip, I think it's that they feel it's their duty - or at least that it's ok - to warn others about unethical things people have done.

    Quote Originally Posted by maizemedley
    Why do onto others as you would have done onto you?
    Why not?
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Well, I don't know about other ENTj's but when I read this description I think "Gee, if everyone in the world could be like that"! I think all ENTj's have deep down inside a concern for ethics and "good" people and this is why they love ISFj's.

    I like the part where it's mentionned that ISFj's would never like the mafia... lol, so true. ENTj's neither, they like profit but they don't like getting it in a dirty way.
    ENTj - intuitive subtype - 8w9, sp/sx

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    Default Re: ISFj description by Stratiyevskaya

    =)

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    I disagreed with quite many things and can't really see the ISFj inside me.

    -mafia is great. it's the necessary evil and people there are much more organized than just stupid thugs. And actually I would love to have a friend/BF who is a mafia boss, because they are so much more powerful and cool than just mere businessmen. And when they kill people, they are just doing the world a favor. (the people they killed had probably tried to do crime but were too greedy or untrustworthy or uncontrollable even for the mafia. May they have a happy afterlife.)

    -moral? own rules? Mhhh... Never did understand people who actually believe in such things. I do have the philosophy that people should get what they deserve, but it's not so much connected to what they have done, but also what they will do. It actually took some time to get rid of the utilitaristic view that old people just eat our food while they don't give anything in return... And it took time to get rid of the idea that poor people shouldn't receive any help from the government because if they can't help themselves, why would other people help them. I'm trying to find reasons to be more human, to think in a "good" way.

    - "an eye for an eye, tooth for the tooth" I don't agree with this. I would actually try to figure out how useful a person really is and then continue from there. For example, if a thief has been in jail 10 times already and still doesn't get a decent life, I would have him hanged. The society doesn't benefit from his existence. If someone with a decent job commits a crime of passion (kills the wife after she is got caught cheating), he should give lots of his property to the country, get mental counseling, and some other things and not be put in jail. If he is put in jail, he'll just get bad memories, possibly AIDS and loss of motivation to live an honest productive life.

    -orderly? Clean?..ummm... I'm just happy when I know in which pile I can find the thing I'm looking for. The INTp I live with is more concerned with keeping things clean. Putting things back in the cupboards sometimes seems so pointless - I know I will them out again the next day. It's like wasting resources. I must admit that I'm rather paranoid with germs. I wash my hands with soap and warm water at least 10 time a day. I wash them so often, I have a problem with dry hands throughout the whole year, especially in the winter.

    ...I could try to find more thing, but I'm tired of writing. I think I'm more optimistic compared to the PoLR described here.
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
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    Where do these descriptions come from? I want to babelfish them all.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    I disagreed with quite many things and can't really see the ISFj inside me.

    -mafia is great. it's the necessary evil and people there are much more organized than just stupid thugs. And actually I would love to have a friend/BF who is a mafia boss, because they are so much more powerful and cool than just mere businessmen. And when they kill people, they are just doing the world a favor. (the people they killed had probably tried to do crime but were too greedy or untrustworthy or uncontrollable even for the mafia. May they have a happy afterlife.)

    -moral? own rules? Mhhh... Never did understand people who actually believe in such things. I do have the philosophy that people should get what they deserve, but it's not so much connected to what they have done, but also what they will do. It actually took some time to get rid of the utilitaristic view that old people just eat our food while they don't give anything in return... And it took time to get rid of the idea that poor people shouldn't receive any help from the government because if they can't help themselves, why would other people help them. I'm trying to find reasons to be more human, to think in a "good" way.

    - "an eye for an eye, tooth for the tooth" I don't agree with this. I would actually try to figure out how useful a person really is and then continue from there. For example, if a thief has been in jail 10 times already and still doesn't get a decent life, I would have him hanged. The society doesn't benefit from his existence. If someone with a decent job commits a crime of passion (kills the wife after she is got caught cheating), he should give lots of his property to the country, get mental counseling, and some other things and not be put in jail. If he is put in jail, he'll just get bad memories, possibly AIDS and loss of motivation to live an honest productive life.
    Regardless of your type, what you wrote is a description of your own values. They are not the same as in the profile, since is subjective, but they are strong. That is the point, and that is what makes people conclude you have strong .

    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    -orderly? Clean?..ummm... I'm just happy when I know in which pile I can find the thing I'm looking for. The INTp I live with is more concerned with keeping things clean. Putting things back in the cupboards sometimes seems so pointless - I know I will them out again the next day. It's like wasting resources. I must admit that I'm rather paranoid with germs. I wash my hands with soap and warm water at least 10 time a day. I wash them so often, I have a problem with dry hands throughout the whole year, especially in the winter.
    To quote UDP: hmmmm --
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkside
    Where do these descriptions come from? I want to babelfish them all.
    They come from socionics.org, but babelfish doesn't work there anymore since they changed the language code.

    http://webtranslation.imtranslator.net still works, but the translations aren't that good.

    Anyway I think that most of them are already on the forum and I'll post the remaining sometime.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Doesn't everyone have some principles? Like people who think that mean people should at least try to be less mean... or ANYTHING...

    And maybe I'm compensating for my lack of principles by exaggerating the vague ones I have.

    I already feel like people are stretching the limits of the interpretations of functions to fit me into the ISFj description!

    My ENFj sister feels very strongly about this principle: "Never do to others what you don't want others to do to you.
    My INTp BF feels very strongly that "The freedom of anyone should never be limited with force, unless if they have limited the freedom of others." (It might be the freedom to do something or even the freedom to make their own choices.)
    ISTp friend thinks "Girls should always at least try to look respectful, not jump around in miniskirts while having too much make-up on."
    ISTj friend thinks that "people should never say anything when they have nothing smart or good to say" (The standard of smart/good is set by the ISTj. She judges if something was smart enough to be said even by other people.)

    And I'm sure EVERY other type has at least something to say about how life should be. And I also think that any person who has no opinions and nothing to say is not worth living because of lack of personality.
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
    E3 (probably 3w4)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    My INTp BF feels very strongly that "The freedom of anyone should never be limited with force, unless if they have limited the freedom of others." (It might be the freedom to do something or even the freedom to make their own choices.)
    Has your BF been reading a lot of Heinlein? Namely, I follow the same credo, but I know where it comes from, in my case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by emeye
    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    My INTp BF feels very strongly that "The freedom of anyone should never be limited with force, unless if they have limited the freedom of others." (It might be the freedom to do something or even the freedom to make their own choices.)
    Has your BF been reading a lot of Heinlein? Namely, I follow the same credo, but I know where it comes from, in my case.
    The INTp BF, "Not in the last 10 years."
    It's mainly his own philosophy. I read somewhere that another INTp had the same credo...


    I was thinking: the ISFj main philosophy could be, "never do anything wrong and evil."
    My main philosophy, "Try to benefit as much as possible, but also take into account that evil acts might bring bad luck, so try to avoid if it's possible. Reasonable evil is always OK."
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
    E3 (probably 3w4)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    My main philosophy, "Try to benefit as much as possible, but also take into account that evil acts might bring bad luck, so try to avoid if it's possible. Reasonable evil is always OK."
    ENTj - intuitive subtype - 8w9, sp/sx

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    The INTp BF, "Not in the last 10 years."
    It's mainly his own philosophy. I read somewhere that another INTp had the same credo...


    I was thinking: the ISFj main philosophy could be, "never do anything wrong and evil."
    My main philosophy, "Try to benefit as much as possible, but also take into account that evil acts might bring bad luck, so try to avoid if it's possible. Reasonable evil is always OK."
    So, he did read Heinlein in his formative years, or not at all? Namely, virtually all Heinlein books intended for teenagers are full to the brim of that particular credo.

    As for you, that phylosophy would make you a selfish little bastard*, but that has little to do with socionics, I believe

    *just a joke, OK

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    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    Doesn't everyone have some principles? Like people who think that mean people should at least try to be less mean... or ANYTHING...

    And maybe I'm compensating for my lack of principles by exaggerating the vague ones I have.

    I already feel like people are stretching the limits of the interpretations of functions to fit me into the ISFj description!

    My ENFj sister feels very strongly about this principle: "Never do to others what you don't want others to do to you.
    My INTp BF feels very strongly that "The freedom of anyone should never be limited with force, unless if they have limited the freedom of others." (It might be the freedom to do something or even the freedom to make their own choices.)
    ISTp friend thinks "Girls should always at least try to look respectful, not jump around in miniskirts while having too much make-up on."
    ISTj friend thinks that "people should never say anything when they have nothing smart or good to say" (The standard of smart/good is set by the ISTj. She judges if something was smart enough to be said even by other people.)

    And I'm sure EVERY other type has at least something to say about how life should be. And I also think that any person who has no opinions and nothing to say is not worth living because of lack of personality.
    Whatever, you're still ISFj no matter what. You've been showing an incredibly strong backed up by in all your "Uncontrolled" posts, in which you don't try to fit a persona, and instead are just being yourself. Heck, even when you do try the persona, you still come across as .
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkside
    Where do these descriptions come from? I want to babelfish them all.
    They come from socionics.org, but babelfish doesn't work there anymore since they changed the language code.

    http://webtranslation.imtranslator.net still works, but the translations aren't that good.

    Anyway I think that most of them are already on the forum and I'll post the remaining sometime.
    Cool. I'd like to see all the alpha ones if they haven't been posted.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    Doesn't everyone have some principles? Like people who think that mean people should at least try to be less mean... or ANYTHING...

    And maybe I'm compensating for my lack of principles by exaggerating the vague ones I have.

    I already feel like people are stretching the limits of the interpretations of functions to fit me into the ISFj description!

    My ENFj sister feels very strongly about this principle: "Never do to others what you don't want others to do to you.
    My INTp BF feels very strongly that "The freedom of anyone should never be limited with force, unless if they have limited the freedom of others." (It might be the freedom to do something or even the freedom to make their own choices.)
    ISTp friend thinks "Girls should always at least try to look respectful, not jump around in miniskirts while having too much make-up on."
    ISTj friend thinks that "people should never say anything when they have nothing smart or good to say" (The standard of smart/good is set by the ISTj. She judges if something was smart enough to be said even by other people.)

    And I'm sure EVERY other type has at least something to say about how life should be. And I also think that any person who has no opinions and nothing to say is not worth living because of lack of personality.
    Whatever, you're still ISFj no matter what. You've been showing an incredibly strong backed up by in all your "Uncontrolled" posts, in which you don't try to fit a persona, and instead are just being yourself. Heck, even when you do try the persona, you still come across as .
    (sarcasm) Yeah, because we all know that 95% of the time people just pretend to be a certain type and the 5% they spend being angry/stressed/annoyed is when they really act like themselves. (/sarcasm)
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
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    No, because I never said 95 percent of the time.

    You come across as ISFj most of the times.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    i need help making generalizations; does anyone know an isfj? and if so, how difficult would you say it is to piss em off, if you are part of their "circle"? once they make you a friend, does it seem as if you can do no wrong? do they show anger often? any help is appreciated!
    LII
    that is what i was getting at. if there is an inescapable appropriation that is required in the act of understanding, this brings into question the validity of socionics in describing what is real, and hence stubborn contradictions that continue to plague me.

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    i need help making generalizations; does anyone know an isfj? and if so, how difficult would you say it is to piss em off, if you are part of their "circle"? once they make you a friend, does it seem as if you can do no wrong? do they show anger often? any help is appreciated!
    Here are my experiences, both from work and social relationships with ISFjs:

    1) Once they make you a friend, it does seem as if you can do no wrong. Unlike some other F types, they don't seem to have as much of a rollercoaster sense to them of thinking you're wonderful, then thinking you're lousy, and back and forth.

    2) It is very easy to antogonize them unintentionally, though, by being late, irresponsible, or neglecting people's needs. ISFjs like it when people follow established procedures becaue they view these as protecting people. Unlike ISTjs, they'll cut you some slack if you're irresponsible but penitent.

    3) They may keep their feelings inside, so you really have to communicate and ask them about what they're feeling; also, be very attentive to changes in behavior. If they act different, it's good to ask them what's happening. It may be that you antagonized them without realizing it. Because their feelings are pretty stable generally, changes in behavior are pretty reliable signs that there's something on their mind.

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    okay, I decide to finish translating this stuff, and I got about 5% through and my ADD got the best of me and I said fuck it. This is what I came up with:

    ISFjs believe the ideals "do unto others as you would have others do unto you" and "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth". That is, if a person has never done anything bad to you, you should not treat him badly. However, if you suspect that he may do something bad, it is wise not to trust him, as well as to warn others about him. Those who do not understand this motivation may think that ISFjs are gossip queens, but in reality, they consider petty gossip to be wrong, saying something only if they believe it to be morally right to do so. They are careful not to say anything that they cannot later defend.

    Sometimes, because of weak intuition and logic, an ISFj may hold double standards. For example, he might say, "I've never done anything bad to you. Why don't you trust me?" He then realizes that he treats others this way, thinking poorly of people without giving them a chance. He then makes an effort to be more open with someone who he doesn't trust, which generally ends up causing a lot of problems.

    An ISFj understands that he is good at seeing the potential good and bad in other people and will not allow others to challenge this ability. He is able to notice the smallest details of other people, and is able to draw conclusions from these details on whether or not he should trust a person. He is very perceptive about the motivations of others.

    When an ISFj meets a person for the first time, he studies the person, which often makes them feel uneasy. He forms an impression about the person's motivations. Although his first impression is usually correct, he is willing to give people one more chance. This ability to give another a second chance makes up for the ISFjs lack of intuition and logic.

    An ISFj is slow to warm up to and get to others. When he is in an uncomfortable situation, he becomes extremely polite to everyone around him. This confuses him because although he sees this as the right thing to do, he is unable to be a good judge of people, something which he is usually good at.

    An ISFj gives the impression that he is closed and uncommunicative. This is because he does not like change, and only allows someone new into his close circle of friends if he sees a good reason to do so.

    An ISFj can always tell when someone is being fake.

    ISFjs put an extreme importance on their concept of right and wrong, and expects those close to him to do what's right. If he someone is doing things which he sees as wrong, he will lose respect and trust for that person and will not interact with him anymore. He does not consider a person's circumstances to be an excuse to do something that is wrong. He does never sees a situation or represents himself outside of his beliefs of right and wrong. The advice "lighten up" is not for him.

    ISFjs believe that it's their job to expose and eradicate evil. For this reason, ISFjs only want to interact with people if he thinks it won't be problematic, both for himself and those around him. Sometimes it seems like ISFjs hold others to impossibly high standards.
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    Are the ISFjs easily (quickly) angered?
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
    E3 (probably 3w4)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    Are the ISFjs easily (quickly) angered?
    In terms of quickly losing their temper? That would be more an irrational trait.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    My ISFj brother doesn't get outwardly angry really. If he's upset about something he just broods.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    it depends on what they're angry about
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    An ISFj can always tell when someone is being fake.
    I don't this is true, actually. First, only a mind-reader can do that. It is part of their self-image, though.

    ISFjs, especially when in difficult situations of no easy solution, may easily mistake someone's for .
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Bumped for sticky.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    brooding is a good way to describe it

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    Quote Originally Posted by stratievskaya
    Responsibility for its words, behavior, for the appeared feelings, for the data of promise, for "those, whom you tamed", for the quality of the carried out work. Responsibility before the association, the associates, the relatives and the family... But very great responsibility - before itself itself.

    funny sidenote: there is a line in "le petit prince" (ILENTp's avatar, ironically) that addresses this. i love this as an ISFj sort of sentiment.

    * Tu deviens responsable pour toujours de ce que tu as apprivoisé.
    o You become responsible, forever, for what you have tamed.
    + Chapter XXI
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    Creepy-Diana

    Default Reader request of Stratiyevskaya's ISFj description

    .
    Last edited by tereg; 05-07-2010 at 09:45 PM. Reason: Edited by user request

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    just a few things that stuck out to me. something i hate about doing translation work from a machine translation is that it eventually starts sounding like "normal english."


    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    Could I get some volunteers to read this Fi section of Strat's ESI and tell me if it sounds like English, and if you notice anything that could use work?

    After awhile of reading these the machine translation sounds normal to me, so I'm trying to take it in blocks so that doesn't happen. I'm about done with the Se section also and will put that up next.

    BLOCK EGO * the 1st position * program function * the "ethics of relations"

    Drieser's primary objective is to reveal ethical problems and eradicate them. In this light, the only relations that make sense to him are those in which he sees for himself and others the least probability of trouble. no real suggestions for this, but it sounds a little awkward as well.

    Therefore it is likely that he forms very categorical precepts of (some Russian word) that primarily list what a person is incapable of doing

    ISFjs believe in the mottos: “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”; and “an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth”; That is, if a person has never done anything bad to you, you should not treat him badly. However, if you see in him the tendency to do something bad, you have every right not to trust him, and it is your duty to warn others about him. Those who do not understand this motivation may think that ISFjs are gossips, but in reality, they consider petty gossip to be wrong, saying something only if they believe it to be morally right to do so. They hate to gossip about others or hear it about themselves, including gossip about those they consider unworthy or dangerous, but feel it is a right and duty to remain wary and are always ready to defend what they've said.

    Sometimes, because of weak intuition and logic, an ISFj may hold double standards. For example, he might say, “I've never done anything bad to you. Why don't you trust me?” He then realizes that his own behavior contradicts[/b] this principle because he will think poorly of people without giving them a chance. For this reason, he then makes an effort to be more open with someone who he doesn't trust, which generally ends up causing a lot of problems.

    Fortunately for the ISFjs, they understand early on their natural advantage and ability to see in others the predisposition to bad acts, and understand the ethical potential of other people, and will not allow anyone to challenge this understanding.
    The ISFj is extremely observant, a magnificent physiognomist is able to notice the smallest details of other people, and is able to draw conclusions from these details on whether or not he should trust a person. He is very perceptive about the motivations of others.

    When an ISFj meets a person for the first time, he studies the person, which often makes them feel uneasy, as if they are under a penetrating X-ray from the ISFj. He forms an impression about the person's motivations. Although his first impression is usually correct, he is willing to give people one more chance. This ability to give another a second chance makes up for the ISFjs lack of intuition and logic.

    An ISFj builds relations with people very cautiously, even watchfully. ((The two translators used paint the following sentence in a different way, but I'll have to look again at the first to see if perhaps they compare better and I had accidentally changed the meaning slightly myself, I'm going off the second one here --- not really sure what they want to say there. warily maybe?)) It irritates him when this property of cautiousness is opposed by its alternative "friendliness to all without exception". This confuses him because while it is not contrary to his ethical principles it is dangerous as it forces him to set aside his strengths and operate instead with weak qualities.

    An ISFj gives the impression that he is closed and uncommunicative. This is because he tends towards habit and likes things to remain steady, and only allows someone new into his close circle of friends if he sees a good reason to do so.

    Drieser always knows how someone relates to him. He easily spots lies, falseness and hypocrisy towards himself and towards others.

    ISFjs put an extreme importance on their unshakable ethical principles, and expects those close to him to do what's right. He prefers to keep close only with those who completely corresponds to his moral criteria. He does not consider a person's circumstances to be an excuse to do something that is wrong. He never sees a situation or represents himself outside of his beliefs of right and wrong. The advice “lighten up” is not for him. The situation of "a love triangle" is absolutely unacceptable for him. The thought of infidelity to one's spouse seems blasphemous and he will not allow it to happen to himself, nor seduce a married person.

    The concept of "sexual freedom" applies only to erotic imaginations, and is not for him. In real life he would not allow for himself or his partner any inclusion of another person. He is much too proud to share his partner with another.

    He is an extremist in love and friendship, and gives himself completely. He will give everything that he has, and even what he doesn't. (And can even get a loan himself in order to pay the debts of his friend)

    He is touchingly sympathetic to sincere interest. And to him the interest is clear; after all associates react to his "x-ray" sight and is used to feeling sharply any disagreement or resistance to himself. Therefore when someone is sincerely appreciative of him he considers it a duty to reciprocate. But, if he notices that someone abuses their relationship, he leaves that person without regret.

    He remembers harm done to him for a long time and tries to completely separate himself from the person who caused it. He may superficially engage in dialogue with the person, but in his mind this person no longer exists to him.


    His constant aspiration to eradicate evil on earth (which is concentrated on his nearest environment when under psychological discomfort) may cause Dreiser to be too quick to dole out "ethical punishment". He is able to better than anyone drive a person into a corner at the first suspicion of wrong doing and accuse him without giving him any chance at all to justify himself. (And at the same time remove any possibility of forming a positive relationship)
    An ISFj analyzes his relationships ( a consequence of weak intuition),and in the case of psychological discomfort or a protracted crisis of relations he can purposefully provoke a quarrel in order to obtain additional data for the reinforcement of his own observations and to obtain complete confidence that a person relates to him precisely in the manner that he feels.

    Distrustful by nature, he is charmed with difficulty: however much he loves someone, and no matter how attached he is, he always remains aware of the deficiencies in the other, after all this is a possible source of future troubles.

    There are generally few to whom an ISFj will open up. It is sufficiently difficult to attain his confidence, to get him to speak frankly. (although he lets out a lot unnoticible to himself, since, as all sensors, he speaks out maximally concretely) ("maximally concretely" sounds strange. speaks without thinking?.) Even when he gives someone his trust, an ISFj never excludes the possibility that they will abuse his revelation ("showing of weakness?"): but he understands that mutual frankness is an indispensable condition (or responsibility) for friendly relations, he’s also afraid the person will be offended by his distrust, and thirdly, he sometimes feels that he is sufficiently strong and capable to withstand any complex ethical situation should his secrets become known to those surrounding.

    An ISFj principally does not desire to be interested in negative opinion about himself, since he knows without error how each person relates to him. Furthermore, he does not attribute to himself poor behavior, since in everything he follows his first function of Fi. For the same reason he tries to ignore gossips - this “ethical rubbish”, which does not deserve his attention. He is extremely irritated, when he is forced to listen to negative opinion about himself: “No, you listen , they are speaking about you!” is considered cruelty, stupidity and straight violence to himself.

    It is for him a still more terrible situation, when he is accused of some mythical misdeeds in which he is forced to justify himself. This for an ISFj is completely intolerable and leads to extreme irritation.


    In the everyday contact an ISFj tries to keep a psychological distance with almost everyone. Trying to avoid unpleasant society, he can insulate himself from “hostile” surroundings, and from time to time even voluntarily lock himself “into the monastery” so to speak, retreating from society. (sometimes even for long years - an example is brizhit bardo. bridget bardot haha)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    Sometimes, because of weak intuition and logic, an ISFj may hold double standards. For example, he might say, “I've never done anything bad to you. Why don't you trust me?” He then realizes that his own behavior condradicts this principle because he will think poorly of people without giving them a chance. For this reason, he then makes an effort to be more open with someone who he doesn't trust, which generally ends up causing a lot of problems.
    This is also not always the case. To me this sentence reads that the ESI is always right about a person, though this may not be how you meant it. In my experience, sometimes the problems that come later are more the result of the ESI making mountians-out-of-molehills about the negative behavior of the individual in question due to them being unrelinquishing about their opinion toward the person and sometimes at the exclusion of more troublesome individuals, who might go about unnoticed by the ESI.

    Other than this slight problem, I have enjoyed most of what I read here. Thanks Diana.
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    Drieser's prime objective is to reveal ethical problems and eradicate them.

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    I feel a lot of it isn't really specific enough. You could say the same thing about any basic, generic emotionally sensitive introvert- for which there are plenty. Especially that last part at the end about retreating from society and what not.

    More stuff about how their Fi interacts with Se would be nice..... and why they have a tendency to appear outwardly 'bitchy' to other types. (no offense Diana =p)

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    Speaking on ESIs, seriously, is Robocop an ESI? He eradicates evil and his prime directives sound as

    1-Serve the public trust
    2-Protect the innocent
    3-Uphold the law
    4-Don't mess with OCP senior officer

    ILE "Searcher"
    Socionics: ENTp
    DCNH: Dominant --> perhaps Normalizing
    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
    Astrological sign: Aquarius

    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

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    I don't know if you like the enneagram, but I think this is a very 1w2-flavored description of ISFj. Perhaps some parts (like, the necessity for strict order, etc etc) could be modulated slightly differently by different e-types.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    I got bored and editing part of the Se description. I may finish later. The bolded parts are what I changed (aside from the additional random capitalization or grammar correction).

    [QUOTE=Diana;508167]Se section is now done:

    Block EGO * 2-4 positions * creative function * "volitional sensing"
    An ISFj knows how to subordinate people to his ethical and moral value system, which entirely compose his sense of existence. He is among the least inclined to remain an outside observer of the ethical problems of society - therefore he actively fights with any deviations from the moral standards, and has thus gained himself the title of "militant moralist".

    Representatives of this type consider it their duty to reveal all the evil which is around them. His primary focus is to expose public defects, to struggle with criminality, infringement of public morals; to struggle for general prosperity, for cleanliness of ethical standards, for the restoration of justice, or for the environment.

    An ISFj hates organized evil and always aspires to oppose it with the rallied good “aggressive virtue”... “if vicious people join together to compose force, then honest people should do the same” (Leo Tolstoy.)

    An ISFj hates the very principle of the organized violence "Is it possible to unite evil?! Indeed this is monstrous! This will lead to a catastrophe and cause trouble for many people; this must be suppressed - evil must be punished!"
    An ISFj hates any manifestation of the Mafia ("the commissioner of rolling"). None of the representatives of this type will ever be occupied by mafiaesque business. The typical mafia man who subordinates others to his will with open pressure and authority causes the deepest antipathy and irritation in the ISFj, which he cannot control even for the sake of decency. An ISFj and the Mafia are incompatible. (For this reason, Joseph Kobzon (ISFj) can be convincingly excluded from belonging to any Mafia.)

    A characteristic of ISFjs is a high exactingness both of himself and his associates in all aspects of his life; in friendship, in love, in business relations, and in work. In everything he expects equal, often overzealous requirements to be met by both himself and others.

    The ISFj feels great responsibility for his words, behavior, for his expressed feelings, for promises made, for “those they have tamed”, and for the quality of their work. He feels responsibility to the association, his colleagues, his relatives and family... But he feels the greatest responsibility to himself.

    Exceptional fitness for work and pedantic industriousness is characteristic for an ISFj. (An ISFj puts forth his maximum efforts for his work, and if a larger return is required from him, this can rapidly leads him to overextend himself, which will sharply worsen the quality of his work, and his relation with those in authority.)

    The core motives of all his efforts are dictated precisely by his ethical aspect and are expressed by the slogan: "Do unto others as you would want them to do unto you".

    An ISFj does like to ask others to help him with his problems, he prefers to manage on his own – whatever this may cost. Also, he does not sympathize with those who consistently turn to others for help with their problems. Bringing others into his problems is considered unethical and tactless, which he understands to be disrespectful to the other person’s free time - to the right of man’s leisure. For the same reason he tries not to infringe on others for company - even his closest friends – even when he is very lonely.

    If he has undertaken an obligation and cannot carry it out in view of objective reasons, the ISFj will suffer greatly. He also does not like to incur debt or to buy on credit – for he worries that he will not be able to pay it back in time.

    In public the ISFj is polite, disciplined, reserved and requires the same from others: indeed it is unthinkable for him to irritate others through rough manners and poor behavior because of his desire to maintain conditions for neutral relations.

    Ha, I can't even tell if this is better or worse. You're right - it does all sound the same after a while.
    Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Nature's peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will blow their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy, while cares will drop off like autumn leaves.
    John Muir

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    thanks calenwen. I'm going to integrate the changes suggested by everyone, and paste into the wiki.
    Np, thanks for taking the initiative and posting them on the wiki.
    Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Nature's peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will blow their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy, while cares will drop off like autumn leaves.
    John Muir

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