Define Se and how it looks like in Egoblock
Now that I consider ISTJ as a serious possibility for me I´d like to learn more about Se.
How would you define it, and how would someone with Se in the egoblock behave or think that would be similar to them all?
Practical examples also, please. I´m tired of "external dynamics of objects in static movements of psychic masturbation inside my head" explanations.
Just some random things that come to my mind and might be helpful.
hands on experience.
strong willed.
LSI-Se is conflict seeking.
I feel the exact same way. I don't even know what that stuff means! (well, I know what masturbation means, but that's all, lol)Originally Posted by Airborne
yes. They see what IS. How things are right now. they have the urge to manipulate things manually. they move toward you, toward a goal. they scan the environment looking for movement. they are able to get things done. they're competent, confident, they make decisions swiftly. ahhhhh.....
-Living in the moment
-accepting reality for whats apparent or seeing what is
-reacting based on what is
-seeing the tree rather than the forest
For ISTjs, they use Se as a creative function to produce the understandings of their Ti function. So in order to learn or understand, they must live in the moment and experience it.
So like...Learning how to drive. Experiencing getting yourself in the car, turning it on, driving on the road, etc., will build Ti understanding of how to drive a car.
Se - External Object Statics:
This means that Se is your function for gathering data on the external world. I'm gonna contrast with Ne (Internal Object Statics) to clarify (or maybe not.)
Se is the function for giving direct experiential data in the outside world. Colour, sound, shape, size, appearance, these are some of the things that Se characterizes by, and this is how Se types often tend to think, the "objects" and associations are what is experienced. My mom is Se-ESTp and I have noticed that she and other Se leads have a tendency to describe things more directly in terms of how they are perceived, ie a glass of coke becomes "drink" because that's what the sensory input is. It is liquid that is being drunk, hence drink, not coke, because there is nothing about perceiving it that says coke. Se, because it is external, is also I believe, constantly updating objects. So if the properties change, the perception of the object changes immediately with it, and for this reason Se tends to be aware of changes in the environment. Also I believe this means that when an object stops being experienced, it starts to fade from memory, because that is the updated information on it. The object is the current experience, it's external, it's not something that is "owned" the way an internal static object is.
For a quick contrast, Ne sucks objects in from the external world, but they are more assimilated as a concept, which may or may not have a great deal of connection to the actual object and the experience had with it. The connections Ne makes are not to the sensory experience of an object but to the internal connections with become associated and bound. For this reason also, when something goes away, Ne will not update with the new information that something doesn't exist, because Ne sucked it in once, and then maintains the internal object, which has no connection to reality. This is where the Ne is spacey idea comes from, and also why Ne types tend to have, in my experience, better memories than Se leads (though vastly more limited experiential data about things and less alertness.) An Ne type will call the coke coke because the word coke is forever bound to that sparkly black goo in the Ne type's mind, even though it doesn't relate to the experience.
Now for an analogy. Se is direct feed HD video monitor with surround sound of the world, and Ne is a series of shitty sketches taken periodically with a bunch of notes around it and knights, ferries, and spaceships drawn around the borders for no apparent reason.
IMO IMO IMO IMO
This info mainly pertains to Ne and Se leads, I don't have much experience with Pe functions in the creative slot. Some of this should certainly apply though.
Arctures: delta just produces boring people
Arctures: but that's how we like it
vero: who needs a real person
vero: That's why I date an SLI
dolphin: someone tell gulanzon adjusting shower water to the right temperature is not si
Kraezz: you just have to do the ****** thing sometimes
Yeah, I guess those were bad examples. lol
How about...Se people seem to be better at observing their surroundings?
I dunno, I've noticed that I'm a lot more observant to little details going on around me than a lot of my friends who aren't ISTj, ESTp, etc., Like I'm always like "hey did you see what X was doing, such and such," and they'd be like "huh" - its almost like they're somewhat detached or that I just have a careful eye on things.
And about the part about you can't learn something by just theorizing it... I feel like some people can pick up things the first time after discussing/reading/seeing it versus me having to go through it over and over (experiencing it for myself) to finally get it...would this be Se related, Ashton? Or more of me being a dumbass?
Thanks
Oh also, I think one shouldn't view the Pe functions as really doing any manipulation. The pairs Fi or Ti do most of that, connections and stuff. But the way in which connections are made is very related to the way in which objects are perceived, so in terms of thought process, you see the effects of the Pe functions, but they themselves are not so much directly responsible for associations and ideas.
These things again, are probably more applicable to Ep than Ij types.
P.S. @ Ashton
Re:
-Living in the moment
-accepting reality for whats apparent or seeing what is
-reacting based on what is
You said: who doesn't do that?
Hitta
Arctures: delta just produces boring people
Arctures: but that's how we like it
vero: who needs a real person
vero: That's why I date an SLI
dolphin: someone tell gulanzon adjusting shower water to the right temperature is not si
Kraezz: you just have to do the ****** thing sometimes
Or how about in terms of decision making...Lets say an ISTj-ENFp couple is considering to buy a house. However, they're in debt, low on the cash.
An ISTj would say: Yo, we can't buy the new house, we gots no money. (basing the decision on whats apparent, Se. this decision would also be a no brainer for them, reacting immediately)
An ENFp would say: Nah man, we're gonna make money in the near future! Let's buy the house! (basing the decision on future possibilities, Ne. and compared to the ISTj, they wouldn't be as decisive and would probably consider the possibility longer)
Though I'm sure you already know, in case anyone doesn't Wikisocion's vocab page is great for synonyms and the Se page is less informative but more specific.
At least, that's the general way I've looked at it. It seems to be a more comprehensible/fleshed out description than the Wiki's Se page and coincides with the descriptions therein, though admittedly the Wiki places more emphasis on conflict seeking and territorial behavior. Why this is I'm not totally sure; perhaps it is because the emphasis Se places on physical and tangible results it naturally follows that it also is aware of the physical presence of others and how they may affect the Se's goals.
Keep in mind also that Se is different in each type, though in all cases it seems to serve to actualize and push the user's agenda.
No really, I'm serious, courage wolf is a comical representation of pure. Search for it on google images to get good descriptions
.
I certainly dont. At least not in a consistent or flagrant way.
So maybe driving a car requires
I have to agree with Ashton, most of the suggestions are stereotypes and don't actually apply to
To be fairly honest, but not wanting to be rude, what you're mocking here is how you actually understand concepts such as
or
) already in mind. TiSe will do whatever they need to get an understanding, so they manipulate (more in the handling sense than the using, though it is applicable) the Object directly to understand its capabilities, remembering the observable data they gain from interacting with the Object.
I don't think I said it was bad to ask questions, but to say you don't even want to understand something there's resources for... Well, how does one take that seriously? I gave an answer that comes from my understanding that tries to keep integrity to what (I have found) is while not using overly technical language. I understand that trying to throw around technical concepts to new people is going to confuse them more than help, but I don't exactly consider redbaron new... And, again, I tried to put forth what I honestly felt while trying to keep respect, I think it's also unfair of you to call me out after I tried to be easy about it, there were other ways to say what I said that wouldn't have been nice and conducive to a learning environment.
I would say length of time doesn't signify much by looking around at other posters here, and this kinda goes against what you've said with taking everything read here with a grain of salt, especially with "seasoned" Socionists.
If I am LSI, those would basically be my thoughts.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
--Theodore Roosevelt
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
-- Mark Twain
"Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in."
-- Confucius
well I am Te polr so I can do that. No, seriously though, I was just joking. Plus I've already read all this stuff many times.To be fairly honest, but not wanting to be rude, what you're mocking here is how you actually understand concepts such as
from the info I gathered so far I must be LSI really...
anyone got a suggestion of a painless, peaceful death suicide method?
I just can´t live this ridiculous burgeous life. I was made for something greater, a cause, a war, something big, very big, in which the whole world could be changed, something like Nazism. I can´t see any point in living this ridiculous life, getting enough money to buy a nicer car after years of working in a boring job, then get old and fat and talk about eating out at night with old and fat friends. And think all this is life. It just isn´t. Life must have something grand to it, something crazy, it must be intense and I cannot feel any intensity within myself. In fact I feel a big gap within myself. This is why I think I´m LSI, this total 'lack of passion'. It´s like everyone is living with some adrenaline level that I just don´t have. I need something big like a war or racing cars or flying planes to get to this point of adrenaline which people normally get just by being alive.
What have you changed so far? What have you experienced so far? You've got nothing to lose in trying to get what you want. Seek out passionate experiences and people and stick with them.
"Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."
Well if there's anyone passionate and crazy about life it's the EIE, I'm not sure how much of that you will achieve in the EII.
My brother (EIE fo sho) always has some crazy revolutionary idea he keeps pushing, always enthusiastic and upbeat about it. He talks about things in life like they're some kind of magnificent drama that we all play grand roles in.
However, I will keep myself from projecting too much until you're sure of your type.
Someone who sees things and tells them as they are without using Si to evaluate how they feel about the things they see or what sensations and feelings these things that they are observing making an effect on them and others because they don't care about how other's feelings are effected by such sensations unless they are Fe type of feelings.
Sexually Se might feel a person's hand touching them and experience the sensation for what it is and nothing more; while Si valuers, like myself, have many sensations all over our body activated due to a remote touch, thought of that feeling or sensation, hence I can be aroused by the thought of sexual contact and actually experience an orgasm while an Se valuer may have to actually engage in an act to do so. As an example.
-
Dual type(as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
no. The trait that you described for Si valuers is true mostly for women in general.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
--Theodore Roosevelt
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
-- Mark Twain
"Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in."
-- Confucius
Also for men; how many times have you heard an LSE say "that was pleasant"; "I like how that feeling made me feel"?
I have many time; men and women are alike.
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Well er, no type has any monopoly on any behavior really.ENFj/Beta doesn't have a monopoly on being passionate and crazy about life. Worthless stereotype. Guarantee you're going to find people like this from every quadra.
Anyway, I may have been oversimplifying. To add context, I mean was that he takes things I overlooked and found insignificant and blows them to epic proportions. He has a knack for being able to weave these things into a grand scheme of things. I think EIEs have a passionate theme to them, though it may not be about 'life' in general and they certainly aren't the only ones.
Did you just say you can experience an orgasm through 'thought of sexual contact'? That's an.. um.. pretty interesting skill to have I guess..
Did you just say you can experience an orgasm through 'thought of sexual contact'? That's an.. um.. pretty interesting skill to have I guess..
Yes, Si is an activation function in me, and when activated all things with physical sensory experience especially Si, which is internal physical sensory experience produces massive release of dopamine or oxytocin in me and gives me a rush feeling even after the sensation or the act leaves, because that feeling produces an impression in my that stays even after that sensation goes away; it stays as a memory in my mind that I can experience from the sensation over and over again as I choose. I usually refrain from speaking about myself in this context but I think people need to get a better comparison between Se and Si type of sensory experience.
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
That´s very interesting Maritsa.
I love hugging and things like that, but I certainly can´t have an orgasm without some sort of sexual intercourse... I really don´t know whether I´m Si or Se valuing. It´s hard to tell, really, because I have depression. But many of the ISTJ features as in wikisocion.org strike me as being very much myself.
Although I do not and cannot know for sure my type probably in this thing without actually meeting face to face someone who knows a lot about this, and being with this person for some time. Then the person may be able to dispell my doubts.
What makes sense in me being LSI:
Special attraction to EIE women,
Stiff, rigid, not very much relaxed in everyday life - only weekends or holidays, then it´s like my 9 wing comes and takes me to a deep peace.
I walk like I´m marching.
I´ve been told I´m arrogant, people have the impression that I have a big ego and think I´m better than everyone (I relate this to beta quadra).
Can be forceful in a physical and psychological manner for extended periods of time.
Although, there´s probably an Si issue. Either I use a lot my demonstrative Si or I´m a delta ST.
this isn't intrinsic to Si at all. I always get a distinct feeling and image of a person's energy from momentary physical contact. it reveals something about them, and how I relate to them.
again, this just does not hold true. I replay memories of all sorts, often more vividly than what I experience in the present moment. actually, this helps clarify a lot of subtleties that I wouldn't have known registered before.
fwiw I relate to all of this, with the last one being less consistent.
It isn't. Some people can't read and that's why they create a thread after thread, asking about something, they could read in silence.
What's a burgeous life ? Two cats and a dog sitting in cinema ?
Removed at User Request
I agree with this 110%. This relates to my SLE husband very well.Se does not mean strength!Use of strength only sometimes comes with it, by the acknowledgement of what it is, "the jungle law", "the big fish swallows the small fish", "me or them", etc. They just acknowledge the *obvious* facts but their actions largely vary, not all Se Ego people are domineering.
Most are actually rather very cautious because acknowledging the laws of the strong, they're not necessarily strong themselves, neither aggressive nor necessarily wishing to dominate. This is a grave fallacy, the more we use it, the more biased views and descriptions we will have, sliding far away from reality.
no, I can do this too.
yes I agree with this also!
As much as I'm trying to understandno, I can do this too.rather. This goes beyond
Maritsa won't be very content when she sees this. Oh no, she won't. Hope you're wearing a protective vest.As much as I'm trying to understand
maybe astral body guards to protect me from future thought projections. Just kidding :wink:
If you will refrain from shooting me for a brief second, I would like to suggest an example of how
Ayn Rand.
Also, I'm in favor of the general notion in this thread of disassociating
If Se doesn't imply strength, there are some very misleading descriptions on wikisocion.
Se 1st
Se 2ndHe is keenly aware of territorial conflicts and confrontational behavior occurring around him. He very quickly becomes confrontational when others try to make him move or get him to do something in an aggressive or confrontational way. He quickly recognizes when people are trying to get each other to do something or are trying to organize him for some purpose. He also spontaneously uses aggression to achieve his own goals.
He enjoys testing his will in challenging situations and views life as a sort of obstacle course, full of adversity and challenges, that must be weathered and conquered.
And plenty more. Honestly, Wikisocion really pushes that Se is this power, force, aggression and attack; how you are going to dissociate that from strength in general is not clear to me.The individual takes direct action to accomplish his goals and desires in the face of external obstacles
He takes his responsibilities seriously and tends to perform them diligently and with care. He expects the same of others.
The way we ultimately describe the types is through stereotypes in the first place; if you physically extracted all the stereotypes from a type, there would be nothing left to describe it with.
I think the difference is that these descriptions focus on sensing forces at work in the environment - hence increased awareness of conflicts, among other things - rather than on being forceful, which is off the mark.
@Ashton: I don't think Te has anything to do with situational awareness of the kind described in this thread, really.
Yes, and everyone (at least most everyone) can drive cars. Everyone uses all of the functions but to a greater or lesser extent - degrees of preference and skill. Below are a couple of my examples of preferences and degrees of skill for intuition vs sensing:
Example - driving:
I can drive a car, and I've never been in an accident. Compared to my SLE husband the quality of the drive is quite different. He prefers to be in the immediate context, very observant and you can tell in his movements the level of concrete, dextrous skill - focused, engaged. He is so comfortable in fact, he will take risks to engage immediate stimulation. When I drive, I'm observant, but, it takes effort to stay focused in the immediate context. You can tell by my movements that my focus is not completely with the here and now. In an emergency situation while driving, I would trust him implicitly to make the right decision.
Example - trading the markets:
While in Europe, we traded currencies to optimize transfers of money back home. One of my past times is charting stocks/technical analysis. I read the stock market. It requires understanding theory, visualization, imagination and forecasting trends. My SLE husband has absolutely no patience for this. He wants action now. So, when the timing is right, I would let him know. He doesn't want to hear about the rationalizations. He executes the trade and follows it as it goes up. I'll tell him when it's close to closing the trade. He'll go by gut feel as to when he wants to close. For myself, executing the trade brings me to close to the action. I've actually made silly mistakes just from the execution. I prefer some distance, acting as advisor.
Different levels of imagination. Some people take imagination much more seriously, like in the MBTI this is one trait for intuitive types. Where as sensing types will live more in the world of facts and in the moment, even often much more in reality.
I for one take imagination combined with spirituality more seriously than a lot of people.
things I´d like to comment from these interesting inputs which are being discussed.
first, definitions of Se from wikisocion:
He is keenly aware of territorial conflicts and confrontational behavior occurring around him.[totally me].
He very quickly becomes confrontational when others try to make him move or get him to do something in an aggressive or confrontational way.[if the way is REALLY aggressive or confrontational, totally me again, I´ll respond with an immediate confrontation].
He quickly recognizes when people are trying to get each other to do something or are trying to organize him for some purpose. [LOL because I can recognize ppl trying to manipulate me from 100 thousand fucking kilometers away, and I can also see when someone is manipulating another person, oft the person being manipulated is not aware, and I do not usually interfere with this. Only times I interfered it was to help either my mother, my father or some girlfriend, and most of the times they say 'you´re paranoid' or 'this is my life, I know if someone tries to manipulate me, I don´t need your controlling me'.]
He also spontaneously uses aggression to achieve his own goals. [I don´t, I think it´s savage-like to use aggression if you can achieve your goals through more mental ways.]
He enjoys testing his will in challenging situations[yes I do but doesn´t everyone?] and views life as a sort of obstacle course, full of adversity and challenges, that must be weathered and conquered. [sure life is full of adversity and challenges, also, another thing which I think everyone with a brain knows.]
from these definitions, I do have strong Se, but then... aren´t most male homo sapienses like this? at least heterosexual ones? and I´m really not a guy who´s into a macho power-trip or a strength trip. I´m not even into working out at gym anymore, I think lifting weights is an exercise of patience, it´s boring.
ESTj's can also behave a bit like this. Their ordering around can be seen as agressive behaviour. They have no problem telling you what to do. This they share with Se types.
I just made up some things, maybe it helps you to differentiate better between estj/istj:
ESTj: their talk is very business like, they talk usually faster then the average person, and also louder. They want everyone to work really hard. They are also hard workers themselves.
ISTj: they talk calm and slowly. They can be extremely stubborn, and want others to do everything according to the procedures/book, which they also follow loyally themselves. They are slow and somewhat private workers, but you can completely trust them to do their duty.
Which one is you?
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