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Thread: NeTi concepts and subject matter

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    Default NeTi concepts and subject matter

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    Life's a bitch and she's got me pussy whipped.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aixelsyd View Post
    Concepts, subjects, and tangible ideas which exemplify and

    Some things on Wikipedia introduced by an ILE (who I formerly typed as IEI with uber Ti HA):

    Emergence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Generative sciences - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (one of the subject links in the article)

    The basic idea is one which describes how complex systems of any and all sorts emerge organically via random connections to create encompassing systems.
    I'm not sure about generative sciences, since they seem to rely more on weak emergence and are rather specific in comparison with it, but emergence, or at least strong emergence, is the best term I've seen for illustrating so far. And if I were to use it for other information element, it would probably be . Its effects are irreducible to the components, can't be explained with explicit connections, related to interactions and properties of the whole system, not any element - it bears all marks of being what we refer to as internal dynamic of fields in socionics. I could see statics maybe, but not external nor bodies. On an intuitive - conventionally speaking - level, descriptions of strong emergence seem to me. Of course, consciousness itself seems emergent, so it's possible most if not all people would get this impression, in which case maybe it's more descriptive of as information aspect than as information element, though it fits both.

    I think the other terms from the article, holistic and reductionistic, describe emergence better than strong and weak. Holistic emergence truly seems the closest concept to I've seen. Reductionistic emergence I'm not sure about - it sounds external, I would be inclined to say , due to dynamic, interactive aspect again, but then I can't be sure if it wouldn't work for .

    This passage sounds, to me at least, as a possible view of external fields' valuer on holistic emergence:

    "Although strong emergence is logically possible, it is uncomfortably like magic. How does an irreducible but supervenient downward causal power arise, since by definition it cannot be due to the aggregation of the micro-level potentialities? Such causal powers would be quite unlike anything within our scientific ken. This not only indicates how they will discomfort reasonable forms of materialism. Their mysteriousness will only heighten the traditional worry that emergence entails illegitimately getting something from nothing."(Bedau 1997)
    I'm not sure how would fit into it - probably as an internal element, it bears resemblance to emergence, but as focused on objects, it wouldn't really deal with holistic perception of interactions, I'd think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aixelsyd View Post
    Concepts, subjects, and tangible ideas which exemplify and
    ...
    Emergence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    ...
    The basic idea is one which describes how complex systems of any and all sorts emerge organically via random connections to create encompassing systems.
    how does this apply to NeTi? the method is systematic deconstruction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    I'd also like to scour input from βs as far as how they might see/relate to 'emergence' as something descriptive of how manifests for them. So if any of you guys see this, please comment on my inquiry
    I see emergence as the most reliable force of direction in my life. it's different than gamma, because there isn't so much a measurable succession of events, as there is an involution, where the meaning of any given action is bound up with past actions. it's from this standpoint that I get a 'feel' for what is 'supposed' to happen, and make sure to note any odd detail or reaction within experience, so as not to miss an inception point. this is another feature that distinguishes the quadras: the fatalistic bent is heavier in beta.

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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    I see emergence as the most reliable force of direction in my life. it's different than gamma, because there isn't so much a measurable succession of events, as there is an involution, where the meaning of any given action is bound up with past actions. it's from this standpoint that I get a 'feel' for what is 'supposed' to happen, and make sure to note any odd detail or reaction within experience, so as not to miss an inception point. this is another feature that distinguishes the quadras: the fatalistic bent is heavier in beta.
    I would say holistic perception of all experiences is Ni in general; where Ne might holistically perceive a fragment of the world experienced at the moment, it results in something distinguishable, even if vague. Ni rather creates a mindset or perspective, encompassing the whole past and directing the view of the future. I agree with fatalism being more of a Beta theme, but I don't think the difference lies just here.

    I was actually writing about this earlier today, but it still needs some work; it's really not just "I must have it as well", though I realize it may sound like that. I'm not sure what you mean by involution here, but if it's close enough to how it's used in thinking styles, it wouldn't be so much of a quadra difference.

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    I think it's funny how functions are actually the spontaneous order created by the need to communicate in different ways, and relationships from the need to communicate different things...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    I would say holistic perception of all experiences is Ni in general; where Ne might holistically perceive a fragment of the world experienced at the moment, it results in something distinguishable, even if vague. Ni rather creates a mindset or perspective, encompassing the whole past and directing the view of the future. I agree with fatalism being more of a Beta theme, but I don't think the difference lies just here.
    I agree re: holism. the quality I was getting at with betas, is the result of having two internal dynamic functions in the same block. the latent form of concepts/associations renders the need for actualization urgent, hence fatalism. with gammas, I see a more balanced feedback loop, an awareness of 'where things have come from and are going' but not without a consistent read on what is tangibly occurring at any given moment. the quality I tend to associate with this, is one of resigned determination, based on the knowledge of potential chaos combined with the need to stabilize things.

    I was actually writing about this earlier today, but it still needs some work; it's really not just "I must have it as well", though I realize it may sound like that. I'm not sure what you mean by involution here, but if it's close enough to how it's used in thinking styles, it wouldn't be so much of a quadra difference.
    I had the thinking styles in mind when I wrote it, but the mathematics definition applies as well: An operation, such as negation, which, when applied to itself, returns the original number. the gist being, some sort of inherent starting point that will inevitably reach its own singularity and (presumably) reproduce something new. I initially saw it more pronounced in betas, as Ni is bound up within the parameters of Ti, which makes for a bit of overlap in desire; ideological absolutism is just recourse. comparing IEI and LIE in the vortex category also makes sense, because the former basically sees the 'inevitable spiral downward', whereas the latter sees the gradual focalizing of energy toward a definite end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    I agree re: holism. the quality I was getting at with betas, is the result of having two internal dynamic functions in the same block. the latent form of concepts/associations renders the need for actualization urgent, hence fatalism. with gammas, I see a more balanced feedback loop, an awareness of 'where things have come from and are going' but not without a consistent read on what is tangibly occurring at any given moment. the quality I tend to associate with this, is one of resigned determination, based on the knowledge of potential chaos combined with the need to stabilize things.
    I wonder if it might have to do with Fe being involved rather than with its being internal? Anyway, both represent Fe/Te difference. It seems like that to me as well, with Betas seemingly relying more on what they experience than on what they observe. Not to say an observation isn't an experience, but that by experience here I mean something more intense, tangible, as you put it - in contrast to abstract conceptualization of Te.

    I had the thinking styles in mind when I wrote it, but the mathematics definition applies as well: An operation, such as negation, which, when applied to itself, returns the original number. the gist being, some sort of inherent starting point that will inevitably reach its own singularity and (presumably) reproduce something new. I initially saw it more pronounced in betas, as Ni is bound up within the parameters of Ti, which makes for a bit of overlap in desire; ideological absolutism is just recourse. comparing IEI and LIE in the vortex category also makes sense, because the former basically sees the 'inevitable spiral downward', whereas the latter sees the gradual focalizing of energy toward a definite end.
    That's an interesting description. What would it look like in EIE, in comparison?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Right, I agree that holistic perception of experiences is general to in both quadras.

    The contrast I make in this regard is that is more reductionistic whereas is more integrative.

    (...)

    Some contrasting descriptors I posted awhile ago on Socionix might be illuminating. I think and both deal with 'internal attributes'. Generally speaking, they're both info-metabolic processes for making abstractions about reality, for carving it up into various conceptual delineations and significations, etc. But they're drastically different in how they go about doing this:

    Descriptors

    Comparmentalization - The action or state of dividing or being divided into compartments or sections.
    Modularization - A self-contained component (unit or item) that is used in combination with other components.
    Aggregate - A whole composed of many particulars; a mass formed by the union of distinct particles; a gathering, assemblage, collection.
    Atomistic - Chiefly Philos. and Psychol. A theoretical approach that regards something as interpretable through analysis into distinct, separable, and independent elementary components.
    Tensor - Math. An abstract entity represented by an array of components that are functions of co-ordinates such that, under a transformation of co-ordinates, the new components are related to the transformation and to the original components in a definite way.

    Descriptors

    Emergent - Science. An effect produced by a combination of several causes, but not capable of being regarded as the sum of their individual effects.
    Apperception - Psychol. The action or fact of becoming conscious by subsequent reflection of a perception already experienced; any act or process by which the mind unites and assimilates a particular idea (esp. one newly presented) to a larger set or mass of ideas (already possessed), so as to comprehend it as part of the whole.
    Gestalt - A physical, biological, psychological, or symbolic configuration or pattern of elements so unified as a whole that its properties cannot be derived from a simple summation of its parts.
    Holistic - Of or pertaining to holism; characterized by the tendency to perceive or produce wholes.
    Attractor - Math. A point or set of points in phase space which represents the state or states towards which a dynamic system evolves with time.

    You may also find this insightful, or at least I did: An ego's critique of
    I didn't read the whole discussion on socionix, but it seems to focus a lot on "moving" or making connections; IMO it's less about being modular or holistic and more about its results being modular. I think the 'steps' are more easily observed, because they're an effect of external fields - they are, in fact, explicit connections, while itself would be what might see as 'randomness' - not so much walking nodes as seeing the node differently, looking at its potential and possibly seeing the unexpected, which may lead to revealing other explicit connections between conceptualized nodes. The perception of this node might very well be holistic; it probably is, in fact, and may seem inexplicable to weak , it's like a 'jump', except it takes place within the concept rather than between them. I wouldn't call it emergent however, as it lacks both interconnectivity and dynamics aspects that are essential to the term.

    Ultimately, I think the difference is in what intuition is applied to rather than how it is, which in combination with other preferences results in very different thinking patterns.

    What do you think of this term?

    Homeorhesis: Derived from the Greek for "similar flow", is a concept encompassing dynamical systems which return to a trajectory, as opposed to systems which return to a particular state, which is termed homeostasis.
    I wonder if it says something about grass being greener on the other side that you use homeorhesis nowadays and I use emergence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    NeTi you mean?
    yeah, I was asking OP to justify

    I experience this too, if it's what I'm thinking you're referring to… I keep wanting to call my experience of it something like a 'gestalt twitch', if that makes sense. Though I agree the fatalism bent is defintely something more characteristically β.
    yeah, makes sense. I immediately thought of apperception, and the definition made perfect sense for the normative Ni thought process.

    Apperception - Psychol. The action or fact of becoming conscious by subsequent reflection of a perception already experienced; any act or process by which the mind unites and assimilates a particular idea (esp. one newly presented) to a larger set or mass of ideas (already possessed), so as to comprehend it as part of the whole.
    it's funny, cause I just said something to maritsa about how my reflections usually illuminate subtleties I wouldn't have noticed before. and on a day-to-day basis, I'm pretty insecure about my ability to successively deduce thoughts, and so have to trust in the synthesis stuff.

    In terms of IEs, I personally see β- operating in tandem with . I feel like there's an urge in β to take the integral perceptions of and rend them into an explicit construct… which may be in part where the tendencies towards fatalism draw from.
    yeah, that's what I was probing with the 'ideological absolutism' comment. it's like, Ni is basically seeking conceptual free reign, though there are these implicit terms, walls that it collides against in predictable ways. and from this vantage point, the themes and whatnot that it has refined begin to solidify – out of necessity – until all that is left, are very rudimentary boundaries sealing off the different pathways and associations.

    γ- seems very coupled with , but it's harder for me to explain how this manifests.
    yeah, I don't have as clear a grasp of it... but I kind of like it. it makes gammas easy to deal with in a different way, I always visualize simulated holographs passing each other with independent partiality. I mean, to take the generic metaphor of water smoothing over the rubble, that's kind of how I see IFs working, a very gradual and inevitable purging. the SeTe pair seems to condense points in an ordered manner for this undercurrent to course through.

    What do you think of this term?

    Homeorhesis: Derived from the Greek for "similar flow", is a concept encompassing dynamical systems which return to a trajectory, as opposed to systems which return to a particular state, which is termed homeostasis.
    ah right.. I think it describes a kind of a posteriori attitude of Ni... 'though the forms may endlessly vary, their cycle does not.'

    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    I wonder if it might have to do with Fe being involved rather than with its being internal? Anyway, both represent Fe/Te difference. It seems like that to me as well, with Betas seemingly relying more on what they experience than on what they observe. Not to say an observation isn't an experience, but that by experience here I mean something more intense, tangible, as you put it - in contrast to abstract conceptualization of Te.
    well, I only think double internal is significant because it highlights the aristocratic quadra tendency to focus on opposite poles of info. but yeah, in isolating Fe, it becomes an issue of continual subjective impressions that are trusted to have inner harmony but know no actual form... yet. Te doesn't get mired in this, it's interesting to observe; they seem to just see the sequence of something, disparate clicks, and it goes, recursive, so on. not as much speculation.

    That's an interesting description. What would it look like in EIE, in comparison?
    they're algorithmic... it has to do with quadra roles. EIE is constantly trying to maintain these fluctuating forces – whose existence can't be explicitly proved in full, which amplifies frustration–>drama – as the 'tides go downhill', essentially (preparing the irrationals for the plunge). where the IEI is languidly floating unto the verge of the waterfall, the EIE is 'casting spells' of sorts over the currents leading up to that point, hoping for a convergence before the inevitable. ILI is the same style, only they are present directly after the collapse. all is essentially still in chaos. they see processes emerging (evolutionary grasping generals and moving forward) and immediately begin isolating the various pieces in this seemingly random succession of events... reorganizing all tools, resources, whatever, devising a stable method of allocation. if everything is aligned ahead of time, someone will be able to implement it properly.
    Last edited by strrrng; 08-28-2010 at 10:30 AM.

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    they're algorithmic... it has to do with quadra roles. EIE is constantly trying to maintain these fluctuating forces – whose existence can't be explicitly proved in full, which amplifies frustration–>drama – as the 'tides go downhill', essentially (preparing the irrationals for the plunge). where the IEI is languidly floating unto the verge of the waterfall, the EIE is 'casting spells' of sorts over the currents leading up to that point, hoping for a convergence before the inevitable. ILI is the same style, only they are present directly after the collapse. all is essentially still in chaos. they see processes emerging (evolutionary grasping generals and moving forward) and immediately begin isolating the various pieces in this seemingly random succession of events... reorganizing all tools, resources, whatever, devising a stable method of allocation. if everything is aligned ahead of time, someone will be able to implement it properly.
    I rather like these, especially the last sentence. (Though it's a pity you managed to edit out the sigh of relief before I quoted.)

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