Alpha or Gamma NT?

[Pa3s]

Hey there,
it's been a while now since I registered here, some people might not know me yet. But while I posted in discussions I was told several times that I appear to be an Alpha NT rather than Gamma. Even the extrovert variant was proposed to me. I know that actual introversion/extroversion is not necessarily linked with the socionics term, but I tend to test as a distinct introvert...

Well, I just want to get some opinions.

[Krig the Viking]

Did you previously self-type as ILI? I've found that's a pretty common mistyping for ILEs, for some reason. I think because many ILEs are socially reserved, they type themselves as Introverts. But ILE extraversion manifests not so much socially, in being outgoing and confident in social situations, but moreso in the realm of ideas. ILEs are always searching outside themselves for new ideas and possibilities (as opposed to LIIs, who are always focused inward, taking ideas and possibilities and putting them together into a giant logical system, as flawlessly as possible).

That said, I don't really know you well enough yet to say one way or the other which type you are, unfortunately.

[Pa3s]

Did you previously self-type as ILI? I've found that's a pretty common mistyping for ILEs, for some reason. I think because many ILEs are socially reserved, they type themselves as Introverts. But ILE extraversion manifests not so much socially, in being outgoing and confident in social situations, but moreso in the realm of ideas. ILEs are always searching outside themselves for new ideas and possibilities (as opposed to LIIs, who are always focused inward, taking ideas and possibilities and putting them together into a giant logical system, as flawlessly as possible).

Yes, ILI was my original selftyping. There are certains things which seem to be correct in the ILE description, but I read that they are very dependent on other's emotional atmosphere. I can't relate to that much. I'm a loner and very private, I don't hang out where other people like to be. That's what makes it so hard for me to consider an extroverted type. But if this extroversion does show up differently... who knows?

If I take the long type assistant on socionics.com, I always got LII (I did it twice) but still believed ILI was correct, since the Gamma values seemed to be more suitable. I can't really tell where I get my ideas from, but in many situations I think of something which is already there and have an idea to improve it.

That said, I don't really know you well enough yet to say one way or the other which type you are, unfortunately.

That's no problem at all, I'm glad you wrote this.

[Krig the Viking]

There are certains things which seem to be correct in the ILE description, but I read that they are very dependent on other's emotional atmosphere. I can't relate to that much.

I think that means mainly that ILEs can't create an emotional atmosphere by themselves, and have to rely on others to do that for them. It's actually because of the fact that ILEs aren't that great at creating or influencing the emotional atmosphere that many ILEs prefer to stay away from people, particularly if the people they're staying away from are not Alpha SFs. As much as ILEs enjoy having fun with people, they get tired of trying and failing to create that kind of atmosphere.

LIIs, by contrast, rarely even try to influence the emotional atmosphere, that's how bad they are at it. If an ILE feels like an incompetent child in emotional and social matters, an LII feels like a helpless baby.

ILIs, on the other hand, think it's stupid and annoying to even care what the emotional atmosphere is like. Whether or not people are "having fun" is an entirely pointless question to them, and just gets in the way of more important things. They prefer to disregard it altogether.

[Pa3s]

Haha, nice. That's a good comparison, and also easy to understand. Well, I'm certainly not comfortable in social situations, but if or if not that's the case regarding me is hard to tell. I guess I need to think about this problem for a longer time.

I did also some function tests before (not sure if it was mbti or socionics) and was always one of my leading functions. ILE have as polr, so I'm not sure how to combine these two facts.

[Jarno]

I understand your lingo, so I guess you are gamma, not alpha.

And most likely ILI.

I'm not 100% sure though, but pretty confident.

[Pa3s]

I understand your lingo, so I guess you are gamma, not alpha.

Does that mean you don't understand what people of other types are saying?
Thanks for your guess.

[Jarno]

Does that mean you don't understand what people of other types are saying?
Thanks for your guess.

Take for example LII's, and also a bit ILE's.

When I read their posts I think: what do they mean, why do the describe things so awkward.

When I read ILI posts I think: ah yes, yup, got it.

[Aiss]

May I ask if you considered Delta ST types, and if so, what do you think of possibly being one? I don't have a clear picture of your persona yet, but somehow I think Delta wouldn't be a bad guess. Not that I have anything in particular against ILI or LII.

Also, walls of text are appreciated. Usually sooner or later whatever masks people wear, consciously or not, slip at some point during ramblings.

[Pa3s]

May I ask if you considered Delta ST types, and if so, what do you think of possibly being one?

I think I did, but S seems rather unlikely. My best friend is ISTp (that's what I think, I'm not totally sure, though) and he always complains about my helplessness in things concerning the 'real world' and not the realm of thoughts and ideas.

Also, walls of text are appreciated. Usually sooner or later whatever masks people wear, consciously or not, slip at some point during ramblings.

I know that large amounts of text are helpful for type identification, but I don't really know what to write. There are maybe things you already know... I had a VI thread before. Otherwise just ask me questions and I'll answer the best I can.

[Mediator Kam]

Yeah, I would assume ILI for you. The ILI I know got INTP in the MBTI tests and surprisingly I gave her a sociotype.com test, and she recieved a INTj, 97% ENTp, and 85% INTp. She is as ILI as a girl can get, and I have absolutely zero doubt she is ILI. From my knowledge of ILI and how they function, you seem to be one.

[Pa3s]

From my knowledge of ILI and how they function, you seem to be one.

Thanks. I think it's also a bit much to ask for, to type someone you only know through some post he wrote... well, I guess it's not that easy to find out your actual type. :wink:

[Aiss]

I think I did, but S seems rather unlikely. My best friend is ISTp (that's what I think, I'm not totally sure, though) and he always complains about my helplessness in things concerning the 'real world' and not the realm of thoughts and ideas.

What kind of helplessness? It may actually be some starting point, you could go from there with what's difficult, nice, annoying, important, or something like that.

I know that large amounts of text are helpful for type identification, but I don't really know what to write. There are maybe things you already know... I had a VI thread before. Otherwise just ask me questions and I'll answer the best I can.

What is comfortable for you to write and share about yourself. The tendency is that the less superficial, the more useful the information, but there are things to be said of less introspective descriptions as well.

[Creepy-cinq]

Have you explored the angle of temperament MegaDoomer?

[Pa3s]

What kind of helplessness? It may actually be some starting point, you could go from there with what's difficult, nice, annoying, important, or something like that.

I have a really bad short time memory... I guess this is the origin of these problems. There are situations where you can tell me something and I forget it before you finished your sentence. That's maybe a bit exaggerated, but that's something my friend always complains about. I can actually remember many things, especially if they were interesting for me before and I read about it. My friend is somehow an 'explorer', he likes to drive around with the car or his motorcycle without purpose, just to find new ways or see the scenery. I hate that because I totally don't like to drive somewhere I don't know the streets and how I can get back home ect. It sounds a bit pathetic, but sometimes that's really a problem. If I have to drive to a certain destination, I always check google maps or similar services before. If you asked me what I ate yesterday for lunch I would only know it because it's the same what I ate today. You know what I mean?

What is comfortable for you to write and share about yourself. The tendency is that the less superficial, the more useful the information, but there are things to be said of less introspective descriptions as well.

Well, I don't know if it's useful for you or not, but I'll have a try. As I said, I'm a loner who actually has no problem with being alone. But of course, I have some acquaintances from my former school as everyone. Some of these people often party together and became very good friends. On very seldom occasions (mostly school-based like christmas parties) I tried to join them, but realised I doesn't fit in and left early. The most of them see me as nerd and don't really know me. It's not that I never talk about myself, but not many people are asking. I don't have much to say to the most people and this feeling is mutual. That's why I spend most of the time in front of the PC. Other than that I like to read, listening to music, watching films, the usual stuff. I'm often interested in exotic stuff and odd ideas, things which most people wouldn't waste much thought on. (For instance, I found an old welder in the basement and even if I had no idea how to use it I wanted to weld something, just for fun. I made a 'sunflower' out of an old sawblade at the end.) I don't care if nobody is interested in it as long as it's interesting for me. I often have spontaneous ideas which I want to carry out. If I lose interest in it, I often just abandon it. (I started to write about five stories but didn't finish a single one.) But sometimes I also pick things up where I left them and continue working on it. I'm interested in ethics, philosophy, politics, psychology. I like to build things from time to time. I would say I'm cooperative and friendly, but I become angry if people put me under (social) pressure. I hate it if people tell me what I have to do, but I'll do my share of work without protest if everyone does something.

Sorry, I certainly could write more, but it's a little late now... I guess you get a better answer with specific questions. Thanks for reading!

@cinq:
I read about it, but the type is dependent on so many little details. Just take a look at the Reinin dichotomies. The temperament is another piece of the puzzle, it's hard for me to decide which one fits me best, without any prejudices about myself.

[Creepy-cinq]

@cinq:
I read about it, but the type is dependent on so many little details. Just take a look at the Reinin dichotomies. The temperament is another piece of the puzzle, it's hard for me to decide which one fits me best, without any prejudices about myself.

I think, like any aspect of typing, it requires some time to contemplate, digest and identify in yourself. I think it's best to identify not solely by reflection but by experiencing in the moment when something happens.

I've initially thought you to be INTj but INTp is plausible and I wouldn't rule out ENTj. Sorry, I cannot provide more assistance.

[Crispy]

Best guess INTp, second best INTj.

[Mediator Kam]

damn this kid is an eccentric Se seeker

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Galen]

I know that actual introversion/extroversion is not necessarily linked with the socionics term, but I tend to test as a distinct introvert...

I test as introverted all the time. Being a 'loner' doesn't automatically throw you in the introvert pile (although I'm still holding onto the possibility of you as INTj).

If I take the long type assistant on socionics.com, I always got LII (I did it twice) but still believed ILI was correct, since the Gamma values seemed to be more suitable. I can't really tell where I get my ideas from, but in many situations I think of something which is already there and have an idea to improve it.

1. That test is awful, as well as the rest of that site.
2. I don't think valuing means you get your ideas out of nowhere. People can only understand what they observe, so it's not like anybody's brain can think of something that has no basis or foundation in what they observe. Even 'new' ideas or inventions have to be inspired or derived from knowledge or observations that the person already comprehends. I'd like to hear what other people have to say to that though.

Do you still have those photos of yourself, or any new ones?

I also don't get why people are saying INTp with INTj as a close second. Aside from what I consider Mr. Doomer's type to be, they are fairly different types with very different styles of thinking.

[Crispy]

The reason I'm certain he's INTx is he has all of the interests of the regular NT and because of this:

I'm a loner who actually has no problem with being alone.

This is introversion in the extreme.

Mega would you say you put more value on your personal imagination or your understanding of scientific theories?

[Krig the Viking]

I dug up your old VI thread, and that in combination with what you've been saying here makes me agree with the others -- INTx. I can't narrow it down beyond that at present.

[Pa3s]

Do you still have those photos of yourself, or any new ones?

You have probably seen most of them, but I don't have a camera at the moment: pic1, pic2, pic3, pic4, pic5

Mega would you say you put more value on your personal imagination or your understanding of scientific theories?

I rather value personal imagination, I think. I know that there are many scientific theories I won't understand. But it's also somehow linked, without imagination you won't be able to grasp scientific ideas.

Totally worthless post, but just saying.

You don't have to tell me. I knew that before I wrote it. Walls of text were requested and I tried to write one. How can I know what's helpful information and what's not?

[krieger]

You're ILI. Embrace tranquilty of mind.

[Pa3s]

You're ILI.

What revealed my true type in your opinion?

[Jarno]

You have probably seen most of them, but I don't have a camera at the moment:

Yikes I have a twin brother.

So uhm, yes you are ILI.

Welcome!

[Pa3s]

Yikes I have a twin brother.

Seriously? Share a pic.

[krieger]

What revealed my true type in your opinion?

Mostly just vibes, but I also don't think the fact that you first concluded your type was INTp is insignificant. In my experience these tiny last minute doubts a person gets long after having decided on their type rarely end up being worth anything.

[shindaiwa21]

I think it likely that you are ILE-Ti. Your language has this sort of precision to it based in a fundamental unsureness that I have seen especially coming from ILE-Ti. Te language tends to be more direct and factual.

Here for instance, are some characteristic weak Fe but highly Fe valuing moments:
Well, I don't know if it's useful for you or not, but I'll have a try [Concern/respect for other people's time, made explici.] As I said, I'm a loner who actually has no problem with being alone [Justification.] But of course, I have some acquaintances [Justification] from my former school as everyone. Some of these people often party together and became very good friends.

Your tone comes off as unsure and apologetic, and and there is a lot of explicit justification.

Of course, I could be totally wrong. It's been known to happen. The trends I mentioned are much more common in ILE-Ti than any LII, at least in my experience. <-- there i actually justified my uncertainty like a good ENTp boy.

Oh, just looked at the pictures, I'd say you VI very ILE-Ti as well. Especially picture two. I dunno if there are any pictures on here, but you look somewhat similar to Archon Alarion. Also to another Ti-ENTp guy I know.

Also what Krig said about ENTp extroversion is quite true, and very common of Ti-ENTp's.

[Pa3s]

I think it likely that you are ILE-Ti. Your language has this sort of precision to it based in a fundamental unsureness that I have seen especially coming from ILE-Ti. Te language tends to be more direct and factual.

Thank you. This is a good example, even if you're not totally sure. I think this is the typical style I use when I write posts, and probably also when talking to people.

[shindaiwa21]

Bill Gates and Paul Krugman are decent Vi matches. Both Ti-ENTp, at least in Ashton-ey socionics. I learned at the feet of this angry yoda look-alike, and still follow his ways for the most part. Different people have different "coordinates" in socionics, so one person's ENTp may be another's INTp. Krugman and Gates are Ti-ENTp in Ashtonland, which is my reference. I probably just said a buncha hella redundant stuff.

[Galen]

Just saw those pics, Ti-ENTp all the way.

[Pa3s]

Oh, I see. The Ashtonists here type (and VI) me as Ti-ENTp, the others mostly as INTp. The only way to find out the right one is probably self-observation. Can you give me some true characteristics of an Ti-ENTp and INTp? Because some people say descriptions can't be trusted.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[glam]

MegaDoomer from your wall and text and pictures i think LII.

you said you didn't fit in in social situations, even though you tried - so i'm going to guess you'd like to be part of such things, you just don't know how. ESEs know how include people and try to make everyone feel comfortable.

you also don't talk about how you feel about things or use much emotional language, so not an ethical type.

you're probably an introvert because you prefer to spend a lot of time alone, and you seem to expect others to take initiative in getting to know you ("It's not that I never talk about myself, but not many people are asking.")

you said you hate people telling you what to do or putting you under pressure. so i think you are not seeking , it could be your PoLR.

do you think this description sounds like you? Logical-Intuitive Intratim - INTj (The Analyst)

[Jarno]

you said you hate people telling you what to do or putting you under pressure. so i think you are not seeking

I'm Se seeking, but I don't like it when people tell me what to do or put me under pressure.
So that's kind of bullshit you are saying, where did you read that, or did you make that up?

[Pa3s]

MegaDoomer from your wall and text and pictures i think LII.

Thanks for your guess.

you said you didn't fit in in social situations, even though you tried - so i'm going to guess you'd like to be part of such things, you just don't know how. ESEs know how include people and try to make everyone feel comfortable.

It's more like I don't really see the point in socialising, people appear to celebrate everything without any reason. I guess this is rather an ILI's attitude. I mostly interact with people through conversation, but if I don't know what to say to someone, it's uncomfortable to be together.

you also don't talk about how you feel about things or use much emotional language, so not an ethical type.

Yes, that's probably right.

you're probably an introvert because you prefer to spend a lot of time alone, and you seem to expect others to take initiative in getting to know you ("It's not that I never talk about myself, but not many people are asking.")

I don't like to be obtrusive, so I prefer not to take the initiative. I hate it if people aren't honest and don't tell me if they actually don't want to get to know me.

you said you hate people telling you what to do or putting you under pressure. so i think you are not seeking , it could be your PoLR.

Maybe, I didn't see it that way. I readily accepted as my polr, but that could have been a bit hasty.

do you think this description sounds like you? Logical-Intuitive Intratim - INTj (The Analyst)

I read the descriptions on socionics.com several times and I can find some true facts in almost every NT text. It's hard to tell which one really fits best.

Worthless post on my part because I gave a conclusion with hardly any premise to support it.

I'm sorry, I just misunderstood you.

I don't see where Ti-ILE is coming from, but okay.

I'm not really convinced either.

[glam]

I'm Se seeking, but I don't like it when people tell me what to do or put me under pressure.
So that's kind of bullshit you are saying, where did you read that, or did you make that up?

is called "volitional sensing". of course i didn't make it up. i don't mean that types will necessarily boss people around, but they do force their own will on others and their environment. this is like basic knowledge about .

it may sound simplistic but that's how i tend to type these days. i think overly complicated and convoluted typing explanations are usually unnecessary. not to mention annoying to read.

[mu4]

I have a really bad short time memory... I guess this is the origin of these problems. There are situations where you can tell me something and I forget it before you finished your sentence. That's maybe a bit exaggerated, but that's something my friend always complains about. I can actually remember many things, especially if they were interesting for me before and I read about it. My friend is somehow an 'explorer', he likes to drive around with the car or his motorcycle without purpose, just to find new ways or see the scenery. I hate that because I totally don't like to drive somewhere I don't know the streets and how I can get back home ect. It sounds a bit pathetic, but sometimes that's really a problem. If I have to drive to a certain destination, I always check google maps or similar services before. If you asked me what I ate yesterday for lunch I would only know it because it's the same what I ate today. You know what I mean

I do all of these things. I don't think my issue is with short term memory, it has to do with auditory processing. I'm concentrating on stuff in my head and able to read stuff and process stuff visually but, turned off my auditory processing. So people sometimes have to shout at me to get my attention. It's better if they just pat me on the shoulder or something.

In a social situation I'm not like this so much, I can listen and process, but still sometimes if I have something on my mind I can blink out.

Well, I don't know if it's useful for you or not, but I'll have a try. As I said, I'm a loner who actually has no problem with being alone. But of course, I have some acquaintances from my former school as everyone. Some of these people often party together and became very good friends. On very seldom occasions (mostly school-based like christmas parties) I tried to join them, but realised I doesn't fit in and left early. The most of them see me as nerd and don't really know me. It's not that I never talk about myself, but not many people are asking. I don't have much to say to the most people and this feeling is mutual. That's why I spend most of the time in front of the PC. Other than that I like to read, listening to music, watching films, the usual stuff. I'm often interested in exotic stuff and odd ideas, things which most people wouldn't waste much thought on. (For instance, I found an old welder in the basement and even if I had no idea how to use it I wanted to weld something, just for fun. I made a 'sunflower' out of an old sawblade at the end.) I don't care if nobody is interested in it as long as it's interesting for me. I often have spontaneous ideas which I want to carry out. If I lose interest in it, I often just abandon it. (I started to write about five stories but didn't finish a single one.) But sometimes I also pick things up where I left them and continue working on it. I'm interested in ethics, philosophy, politics, psychology. I like to build things from time to time. I would say I'm cooperative and friendly, but I become angry if people put me under (social) pressure. I hate it if people tell me what I have to do, but I'll do my share of work without protest if everyone does something.

Sorry, I certainly could write more, but it's a little late now... I guess you get a better answer with specific questions. Thanks for reading!

@cinq:
I read about it, but the type is dependent on so many little details. Just take a look at the Reinin dichotomies. The temperament is another piece of the puzzle, it's hard for me to decide which one fits me best, without any prejudices about myself.

I think you sound alpha NT or LII. I wouldn't say I'm not a loner, I have problems being alone but need it occasionally. I have more problem dealing with people I don't like or am comfortable with then being alone however so the end result is more or less being alone a lot of the time.

Good Companionship > Being Alone > Poor Companionship

I basically type LII or ILI on all MBTI instruments, but I think in socionics I'm a extratim.

[glam]

So Se leading folks can manifest that Se leading thing onto people with weak Se.

yeah, i think that's one way how they can help types. "dualization" anyone?

conversely, types help their counterparts control their better:

this is from ILI-SEE duality description:

Strong and self-confident people are attractive to The Critic [ILI]. Nevertheless, he simply ignores excessive pressure, as if not noticing it. Also he does not accept a challenge, will not fight and by doing this softens the force of The Politician [SEE]. It awakens in The Politician the understanding that he needs to act more diplomatically, to use persuasion and not a direct attack.