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Thread: Quadra Progression: Delta Alpha

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    Default Quadra Progression: Delta Alpha

    I found this film from my childhood that does a really good job of illustrating the progression from Delta Alpha. Here it is if you want to watch it. About 1 1/4 hours long (the whole thing is available on Youtube).
     











    The rest of the post has major spoilers:




    It's a science fiction film from the 60s set in a future where human beings are enslaved by a highly advanced species of giants known as the Draags. The protagonist ("Terr") is a human being, originally kept as a pet, who escapes with the scientific knowledge of the Draags to lead the human uprising against them.

    Terr is probably Ne dominant, since he acts as the gatekeeper of information and its transmitter. The first thing he thinks about while escaping, even above personal survival, is grabbing the learning device. He doesn't blink twice at bringing scientific knowledge to the humans, and naturally assumes this role from the start.

    All other quadras are portrayed from a biased alpha-centric perspective:

    Betas were portrayed as capable and unrelenting fighters, willing to go to extremes to aid in the mission, but primitive and feuding amongst themselves. The roving bands of humans fought resource wars against each other, and were initially too divided and backwards to mount much resistance against the Draags. That is, until the Alphas brought forth their knowledge and a new social ideology.

    Gammas are portrayed the worst (really badly ). The Draag counsel-man (ILI) is narrow-minded (not willing to even concede the possibility that humans are intelligent), self-important and warlike. The human shaman (ESI) is a complete reactionary who opposes any kind of progress on the dubious grounds that knowledge of the Draags is evil.

    Deltas were portrayed as open minded, magnanimous and trying to do the right thing, but too constrained by tradition and bureaucracy to really make a difference and see the full possibilities over the horizon. The Draag first minister was probably EII.


    The human society was merry (but particularly Alpha) in many ways: complete sexual freedom; loose, barely formal leadership; organized, but only with the goals of advancing technologically, spreading their knowledge to everyone, and building rockets to allow them to explore / escape to the mysterious "Fantastic Planet".


    IMO.
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    it looks creepier than hitta.
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    Hmm interesting... I must watch this and get back to you.

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    That was the most messed up hour of my life.

    But yeah, it had its alpha moments but didn't seem to actually intend an alpha-centric theme. That is to say that things weren't shown in a bias light, but rather one which was simply entertaining (savages are overtly confrontational because that's fun to watch, protagonist brings knowledge b/c that's a good plot device, Draags are backward because they are the opposition etc) which indirectly ended up pushing certain quadra stereotypes at their best/worst.

    Specifics;
    It struck me that the shaman wasn't really disputing the knowledge because of the evil Draags, but rather because the newcomer was threatening his power as an advisor to the current leadership.
    Bandit camp leader; ESI or LSI imho.
    Savages in general; portrayed as beta by Draags, many fit that stereotype, definitely alpha-beta
    Leader and friends; prob alpha, definitely not an S type
    Draags; mix of gamma-delta; the whine about production and stuff made me lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skeptic View Post
    That was the most messed up hour of my life.

    But yeah, it had its alpha moments but didn't seem to actually intend an alpha-centric theme. That is to say that things weren't shown in a bias light, but rather one which was simply entertaining (savages are overtly confrontational because that's fun to watch, protagonist brings knowledge b/c that's a good plot device, Draags are backward because they are the opposition etc) which indirectly ended up pushing certain quadra stereotypes at their best/worst.
    I think most films that promote certain quadra values end up doing so inadvertently, with the goal of entertainment or moving the plot forward. The writers' bias shines through, nonetheless. There are a number of other plot choices that could have been made to make the film promote gamma values, for example.

    Leader and friends; prob alpha, definitely not an S type
    The only type outside of Delta that would work for the first minister is LII.
    His daughter "Tiva" seemed like an ethical caregiver, SEI or ESE.
    Bandit camp leader; ESI or LSI imho.
    Savages in general; portrayed as beta by Draags, many fit that stereotype, definitely alpha-beta
    Draags; mix of gamma-delta; the whine about production and stuff made me lol.
    Agreed.
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    After watching this I interpretted it differently

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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    The only type outside of Delta that would work for the first minister is LII.
    His daughter "Tiva" seemed like an ethical caregiver, SEI or ESE.
    Agreed.
    Ah I meant Terr for leader and friends. And yeh Tiva seemed SF

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    lol I watched this last night before I went to bed, fuckin' awesome.
    I agree with most of jxrtes summary. Tiva and Terr look like an Alpha activation pair (Alpha SF, Alpha NT) and I'm amusing Terr's woman was a dual. In fact she didn't talk much at all so I'm guessing she's ISFp, Terr's ENTp, and Tiva's ESFj. It would make sense, cause Terr beat that (beginning) kid's ass faster than I would expect an LII would. The gamma's are portrayed badly if only because they were completely blind to the humans' potential. Extreme Ne devaluing. Like exterminating a species of chimp that learned how to read. The minister seems very INXj.

    Btw this is the best movie I've seen in years. Seriously, especially visually.
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    Most of the characters aren't fleshed out enough to be typed, imo. All of you are calling Terr an alpha NT but there isn't really any strong sign of an innovative imagination or logical preponderance (taking the headband thing with him sure doesn't count). He mostly just seems to succeed by running places at the right moment in time. Most of what he does "right", including the challenge fight, is physical. So why shouldn't he be called something like ESTj or ISTp? Mind you this is not what I'm typing him as. The question is rethorical. There is not enough information to isolate a typing from among all the possible interpretations of his behavior.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    Most of the characters aren't fleshed out enough to be typed, imo. All of you are calling Terr an alpha NT but there isn't really any strong sign of an innovative imagination or logical preponderance (taking the headband thing with him sure doesn't count). He mostly just seems to succeed by running places at the right moment in time. Most of what he does "right", including the challenge fight, is physical. So why shouldn't he be called something like ESTj or ISTp? Mind you this is not what I'm typing him as. The question is rethorical. There is not enough information to isolate a typing from among all the possible interpretations of his behavior.
    Terr acts as the gatekeeper of information and its transmitter, which is the main strength of Ne dominants. He risks his personal survival on several occasions to bring knowledge to the humans, and naturally assumes this to be his role from the start.

    The important thing isn't the characters themselves, which I agree could be more fleshed out, it's about the roles that the various quadras take that makes the typings seem reasonable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    He mostly just seems to succeed by running places at the right moment in time.
    The foresight to act on opportunities in time is also a trait associated with Ne dominance. It's not called "intuition of opportunities" by Gulenko for nothing.

    Most of what he does "right", including the challenge fight, is physical.
    I got the impression that he was put in an extremely uncomfortable situation throughout the challenge fight and only won by force of luck.
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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    taking the headband thing with him sure doesn't count
    It's more of Terr's attraction to the headband throughout the whole first half of the story. It at least secures him as a Researcher > Pragmatist. Yes, pragmatists are probably more likely to take something from the Draag upon leaving, but they would probably think of taking something valuable in the moment (Find a Draag piece of weaponry), not something that unlocks latent capabilities (Ne).
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    I got the impression that he was put in an extremely uncomfortable situation throughout the challenge fight and only won by force of luck.
    All of his successes are contingent on luck. When he runs away he is lucky the headband sticks behind the trees and he is found by a savage human. He just happens to be away when the fume attack comes.

    All substracts from the ability to type him. He's a vacant shell. There is no personality to him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crispy View Post
    unlocks latent capabilities (Ne).
    Well said.
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    It's more of Terr's attraction to the headband throughout the whole first half of the story. It at least secures him as a Researcher > Pragmatist. Yes, pragmatists are probably more likely to take something from the Draag upon leaving, but they would probably think of taking something valuable in the moment (Find a Draag piece of weaponry), not something that unlocks latent capabilities (Ne).
    The capabilities of the headband weren't latent. He had already experienced what it could do. The word "secures" is a dramatic exaggeration that makes it impossible to take your argument seriously.

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    What it could do? It was knowledge. It couldn't "do" anything in the physical sense. But it was able to increase Terr's potential and give him access to new opportunities (finding the abandoned rocket factory). The distinction is that it didn't give him raw power. Also he didn't experience ALL of what it could do (He didn't listen to all or even most of the material before taking it). He was relying on the unknown possibility of useful information.
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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    All of his successes are contingent on luck. When he runs away he is lucky the headband sticks behind the trees and he is found by a savage human. He just happens to be away when the fume attack comes.

    All substracts from the ability to type him. He's a vacant shell. There is no personality to him.
    He makes the decision to run away because Tiva stopped taking him to her lessons. His overriding motivation is curiosity. That says a lot about him.
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    The view that you have to be an Ne type to realize that a device that gives instant access to the knowledge of a whole civiliziation is the most valuable and important object you could be taking with you from that room is misconstrued, dense and insulting both to my intelligence and to non Ne types across the planet. Overriding motivations my tail. You people are unbelievable. Just admit you don't have a leg to stand on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    The view that you have to be an Ne type to realize that a device that gives instant access to the knowledge of a whole civiliziation is the most valuable and important object you could be taking with you from that room is misconstrued, dense and insulting both to my intelligence and to non Ne types across the planet. Overriding motivations my tail. You people are unbelievable. Just admit you don't have a leg to stand on.
    If you were treating it as a real situation, sure. But it's an idealized situation in a cartoon that tries to emulate the traits and main social role of Ne dominants, not a detailed character study of a real person.

    How is this for a thought experiment. What do you think an SLEs idealized version of himself would be -- The bringer of knowledge? A peacemaker? SLEs have certainly been known to do these, but perhaps, fittingly, they would find more personal glory being victorious conquerors in a contest of sorts (knowledge or diplomacy included).

    It's art, you shouldn't interpret it as literally as you're doing right now.
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    How is this for a thought experiment. What do you think an SLEs idealized version of himself would be -- The bringer of knowledge? A peacemaker? Se egos have certainly been known to do these, but perhaps, fittingly, they would find more personal glory being victorious conquerors in battle.
    He would be exactly the same thing, because nothing of what he does is in significant ways dependent on his type. The only clue as to what type he is is in what he doesn't do. Given the general calmness to his attitude and behavior ESTp is one of the few types that is practically ruled out. (and ENTp is a type that is pretty close to having this argument apply to aswell)

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    He would be exactly the same thing, because nothing of what he does is in significant ways dependent on his type. The only clue as to what type he is is in what he doesn't do. Given the general calmness to his attitude and behavior ESTp is one of the few types that is practically ruled out. (and ENTp is a type that is pretty close to having this argument apply to aswell)
    Does someone have to be an overbearing, insufferable asshole for you to even consider ILE?

    The fact that he fades into the background so easily suggests someone with weak/devalued Se+Fi. It's SEEs who typically make the biggest impact anywhere they go. ILEs often drift to the edge of society because of their difficulty making permanent connections.

    But really, demanding that a character from a minimalistic, abstract cartoon be typed using behavioral traits is absurd. The central themes, however:

    Sources of ultimate knowledge / curiosity
    The transmission of information
    The advancement of human potential
    Overcoming barriers to knowledge
    Building a better society
    Cooperation

    Are either strong Ne themes or things that resonate with Alphas. Even if other quadras can latch on to them (which they do), the totality with which they're presented, the fact that they aren't packaged with other quadra values, and the satires on Beta/Gamma/Delta quadra values, makes Alpha a compelling choice.
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    Does someone have to be an overbearing, insufferable asshole for you to even consider ILE?
    No, like I said I don't think ENTp is an impossible typing, I just don't think there is any evidence for it. Other than that, ENTps do typically appear chaotic and have all kind of initiatives going on that look dubious from the IxTj perspective. None of that is apparent in the character we're discussing.

    The fact that he fades into the background so easily suggests someone with weak/devalued Se+Fi. It's SEEs who typically make the biggest impact anywhere they go. ILEs often drift to the edge of society because of their difficulty making permanent connections.
    You won't find support for the view that ENTps typically fade into the background among canon socionics materials.

    But really, demanding that a character from a minimalistic, abstract cartoon be typed using behavioral traits is absurd.
    Good, then you agree with me. I appreciate you show the sportsmanship of admitting this.

    The central themes, however:

    The transmission of information
    The advancement of human potential
    Overcoming barriers to knowledge
    Building a better society
    Cooperation

    Are either strong Ne themes or things that resonate with Alphas. Even if other quadras can latch on to them (which they do), the totality with which they're presented, the fact that they aren't packaged with other quadra values, and the satires on Beta/Gamma/Delta quadra values, makes Alpha a compelling choice.
    Science fiction in general tends towards alpha NT emphases. A compelling choice maybe, if you really want to strech it. The video itself, imo, is about things happening randomly and causing drama and anguish without much real direction, except it all happens in a weird alien kind of context. The switch from savagery to high tech manufacturing came like a slap in the face without hint or warning.

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    Good, then you agree with me. I appreciate you show the sportsmanship of admitting this.
    I was never really typing him by behavioral traits, but in terms of the themes that accompanied his character.

    Science fiction in general tends towards alpha NT emphases. A compelling choice maybe, if you really want to strech it. The video itself, imo, is about things happening randomly and causing drama and anguish without much real direction, except it all happens in a weird alien kind of context. The switch from savagery to high tech manufacturing came like a slap in the face without hint or warning.
    So then what's wrong with suggesting that the overall film was Alpha? I'm more interested in whether this is a good example of quadra progression than in the character's type.
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    I was never really typing him by behavioral traits, but in terms of the themes that accompanied his character.
    Then I disagree with the practice on an even more fundamental level. Behavior determines type, not theme. Again, I appreciate your sportsmanship and understand your confusion, but this all the time I have to spare discussing the issue.

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