Information Elements in the Music

[aixelsyd]

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[Creepy-male]

I was waiting for this thread all my life.

[Mattie]

I was thinking of typing certain video game characters and presenting their themes to see if that made any connection. I imagine that if the human element was kept in the music, maybe it'd be more direct... Not sure if that's appropriate for this thread though.

[Creepy-male]

I was thinking of typing certain video game characters and presenting their themes to see if that made any connection. I imagine that if the human element was kept in the music, maybe it'd be more direct... Not sure if that's appropriate for this thread though.

I think the composer's ego elements will colour their music moreso than their attempts to capture the character in music.

Nobuo Uematsu is a Fe composer, for instance, and in every theme he writes, the Fe is rather apparent.

Not Fe egos:





Fe egos:

[Mattie]

You can do it. I might give feedback, if I know the characters, to see how the music itself compares to the character and the type that best fits them.

Would you happen to be familiar with the Final Fantasy series? The latest one, Final Fantasy XIII might be the easiest because there are multiple versions of the character themes. Of course, they all have shitcks that have to do with roles and such not related to Socionics, but it might be a start. Final Fantasy VI, VII, IX, and X would do fine as well. Other than that, I'd have to search.

[Skeptic]

YouTube - Chrono Cross Music - Tower of Stars

Ah, I adore Chrono Cross. Another world is one of my favorites - though it may just be the nostalgia from playing the games.



I'm not as willing to type it as I'm so bias and attatched. This thread is however

[717495]

[EyeSeeCold]

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[Logos]

Is this thread about how information elements manifest in music or just an excuse to post music?

[Trevor]

Dead end, more or less.

[Logos]

And if you do not see the logic in it, you can easily move on to another thread. But for those so inclined...well, do as thou wilt. Just bear in mind the intent and act accordingly or else there essentially would be no point.

Are you being defensive about my question?

I was expecting more of (and have a greater interest in) what you posted in the post directly above this one in regards to general trends.

[CILi]

But general trends...

Se: driving tempo, sharp dynamic contrasts, sharp attack on notes with a tendency towards utilizing staccato, marcoto, less use of legato.

Ti: Use of complicated rhythms and complicated chord tonalities, complicated use of modes and often interweave modes, tendency towards technically elaborate passages and orchestration.

Ni: Tends towards minimalism, long chords, slow tempo, lots of legato, reverb tends to amplify the sense of Ni. Gives an ethereal and otherworldly sense.

and so forth. I actually detailed some of this some time ago in another thread but no one seemed particularly interested.

Given how you flesh it out there, I'm very interested.

I'm also a musical dumbass, so when you translate what's going on aurally to written word, it's much, much easier to follow your interpretation of clips and such.

When you mention having spelled this all out before, though, which thread was that?

[EyeSeeCold]

Given how you flesh it out there, I'm very interested.

I'm also a musical dumbass, so when you translate what's going on aurally to written word, it's much, much easier to follow your interpretation of clips and such.

Music - Wikisocion

[Trevor]

... listen to the Mahavishnu Orchestra, Miles Davis, and Charlie Parker...

I did. Not my stuff.

[Logos]

So if you want to know what Ti sounds like, listen to the Mahavishnu Orchestra, Miles Davis, and Charlie Parker.

I have not heard of the first, but I am a fan of Miles Davis and Charlie Parker. I also have a soft spot for Charles Mingus and Bill Evans.

[Jonathan]

Se: driving tempo, sharp dynamic contrasts, sharp attack on notes with a tendency towards utilizing staccato, marcoto, less use of legato.

Ti: Use of complicated rhythms and complicated chord tonalities, complicated use of modes and often interweave modes, tendency towards technically elaborate passages and orchestration.

Ni: Tends towards minimalism, long chords, slow tempo, lots of legato, reverb tends to amplify the sense of Ni. Gives an ethereal and otherworldly sense.

The problem with this kind of approach is that in classical music at least, typically you have all these elements in the same piece. Often the opening and closing movements will have the driving tempo, and then there might be a scherzo movement with more staccato, etc., and somewhere in the middle these's a slow movement with legato, etc. Yet the same composer's personality is evident throughout, whether in the loud or soft passages, fast and slow, etc.

I guess this is similar to the misconception that sees Se as loud and obnoxious all the time and Si as always gentle and nice.

[krieger]

And of course, J.S. Bach's music is like the epitome of Ti in music, though with a more Se bent, I would say. I can see Bach as being LSI, but this is not a thread about composers' types.

I think it would make sense considering Glenn Gould (ENFj) latched himself on to his stuff.

[Jonathan]

I think it would make sense considering Glenn Gould (ENFj) latched himself on to his stuff.

I guess it's all a matter of interpretation, but I hear so much Ne in Bach. He's all about finding these amazing nooks and crannies, constantly seeing so many possibilities, full of surprises and doing what would typically be seen as "the wrong thing" except that it's right. His music is so fractured into so many diverse flashes of light, it's like the opposite of the sort of earthly continuity one would expect from LSI.

I've generally seen him as more likely LII. Where do you get LSI from?

As to Glenn Gould...Now he was all about objectifying everything. So if he played some Beta NF music that's supposed to have a lot of Fe, he would play it very "straight" and make everyone cringe. But when playing very Ti-oriented music, he was brilliant. Where do you get ENFj from?

[Jonathan]

This is true, though I am more going for how I would relate the IMs to the music versus to the composer, though I notice that some artists tend towards a certain overall feel. Like Rage Against the Machine will tend towards a very in your face, earthy, driving kind of sound which may reflect an Se bent. Claude Debussy tends towards a reflective, very ethereal sound more reflective of Ni. For instance. It's how sound reflects the IMs. Nothing more.

I know you what you mean...His music is very ethereal which could be heard as suggesting the vague/watery quality sometimes attributed to Ni. There was a thread a long time back where Rick and a bunch of other people thought he was SLI. Years ago I was convinced his music tends to be FiNe.

Another nice thing about Debussy's music is that it shows a very sharp wit, full of constantly finding new and different angles on things; that aspect is somewhat hidden though under the impressionistic/ethereal veneer.

Overall, discourse typing very hard...over the years things "flip" and each perspective, if you test it and try it, you can say "yeah that fits too."

I have my own system for analyzing type in pieces of music. It doesn't necessarily fit with anyone else's perception of it though...

[Jonathan]

By the way, I'm slightly open to the idea of Bach as LSI, though it seems very odd to me. In that case, what I perceive as the flexibility and inventiveness in his music could come from axial Ni.

In general, most disagreements in Socionics boil down to the fact that what one person perceives as Xi, another perceives Xe. There's never much agreement in Socionics over the perception of the i-ness or e-ness of any IM element. Everyone agrees in theory; nobody agrees in practice.

[krieger]

As to Glenn Gould...Now he was all about objectifying everything. So if he played some Beta NF music that's supposed to have a lot of Fe, he would play it very "straight" and make everyone cringe.

J > P

Where do you get ENFj from?

He was an unmistakable extrovert and intuitive no matter what interpretation of socionics is used. Above I explain my reasons for J > P. The Fe values are in his radicalism and quirkiness and his tendency to reject conservative influences in his musical pursuits. I like to interpret this as "Merry" behavior like smilingeyes always did:

Subjective/Merry function:
It embodies a view of the world derived from intensely personal experiences. It's interests lie in turning this personal vision into something universally accepted. It is radical and contrarian. By its action it changes the 'judicious' into the 'resolute'. It seeks the ignored options, seeks to revolutionize things, it picks the path with many obstacles. It makes situational and personalized choices and is willing to adapt. It seeks niche-markets, it creates powerful bonds of mutual loyalty.

The next best typing I could come up with would be ENTp, and with a lot of goodwill I might try considering ENTj.

[Jonathan]

J > P



He was an unmistakable extrovert and intuitive no matter what interpretation of socionics is used. Above I explain my reasons for J > P. The Fe values are in his radicalism and quirkiness and his tendency to reject conservative influences in his musical pursuits. I like to interpret this as "Merry" behavior like smilingeyes always did:



The next best typing I could come up with would be ENTp, and with a lot of goodwill I might try considering ENTj.

I can actually kind of see where you're coming from. Although I think the Smilex quote, while beautifully written, is a bit vague as it could be describing a lot of things, I guess Gould VIs a little like EIE. I don't see ILE in him at all. When looking at interviews of him, he reminds me of people that I have a hard time placing between EIE and LIE. At this point, it seems a toss-up between those types.

This brings up an interesting topic....Of course Socionics deals with the structure of elements; people's individual personalities involve a certain favoring of different functions that goes beyond their basic Socionic type. Maybe there is a type of EIE that emphasizes Ti and thus masquerades as NT...as if he tries to suppress his base function or make it out to be T...This is a whole other dimension of type that we don't get into much in Socionics. Then again, I've seen situations where LIEs can seem a little like EIEs, as they're not entirely without emotion either....or maybe these LIEs I'm thinking of are really EIE too....I don't know...

It would be interesting if Gould is the same type as Leonard Bernstein.

By the way, here's a great composition of his:

[silverchris9]

A lot of Romantic music is, predictably, beta. Beethoven's 5th is Se + Fe all the way. Rachmoninov is a good example of Fe and Ti combined, I suppose.

Also, I always thought Miles was gamma, but that's more biographical than musical, I suppose. You could argue that Frank Sinatra's music isn't terribly beta despite him being (arguably) beta himself, partially due to the fact that, of course, Frank rarely (never?) wrote his own music.

[Jonathan]

A lot of Romantic music is, predictably, beta. Beethoven's 5th is Se + Fe all the way.

I definitely see the appeal of seeing Beethoven as Beta (e.g., EIE). But it depends a lot on the performance. The conductor, player, etc. has a lot to do with what types, quadras, etc., you hear in the music. Probably if a composer has a mastery of both the ego and dual blocks, the music sounds balanced and is thus more easily transformed into any quadra the performer wants, whereas if the composer lacks mastery of the dual block, then it is more difficult for people of other quadras to appreciate the music.

Filatova types Beethoven as ILI. If Beethoven were a different quadra from Gould, it would help explain Gould's criticisms of Beethoven as being from a Socionics perspective. Gould played some Beethoven well, but other times he seems to miss the point; in any case, even when he played Beethoven well, he still criticized him and seems not to have had much affinity for him.

[silverchris9]

I definitely see the appeal of seeing Beethoven as Beta (e.g., EIE). But it depends a lot on the performance. The conductor, player, etc. has a lot to do with what types, quadras, etc., you hear in the music. Probably if a composer has a mastery of both the ego and dual blocks, the music sounds balanced and is thus more easily transformed into any quadra the performer wants, whereas if the composer lacks mastery of the dual block, then it is more difficult for people of other quadras to appreciate the music.

Filatova types Beethoven as ILI. If Beethoven were a different quadra from Gould, it would help explain Gould's criticisms of Beethoven as being from a Socionics perspective. Gould played some Beethoven well, but other times he seems to miss the point; in any case, even when he played Beethoven well, he still criticized him and seems not to have had much affinity for him.

I dunno. There's really no way to conduct the fifth symphony without that combination of force and impact and emotional... whatever that makes the 5th symphony sound so beta to me. So even if Beethoven himself was ILI (I don't know enough about his life to give a serious typing), certainly the 5th Symphony has characteristics one would readily assign to Se and Fe.

[Jonathan]

I dunno. There's really no way to conduct the fifth symphony without that combination of force and impact and emotional... whatever that makes the 5th symphony sound so beta to me. So even if Beethoven himself was ILI (I don't know enough about his life to give a serious typing), certainly the 5th Symphony has characteristics one would readily assign to Se and Fe.

Well if emotionality is Fe, you're right.
But see, this all goes together. In this discussion, we have some people convinced that Glenn Gould is ENFj, despite his emphasis on trying to make everything sound objective. So if a base-Fe type can be precise, analytical, and objective, like Gould, why can't a Te type be emotional?

See, there's another way of looking at Fe and Te. Maybe Te means simply that the dynamics of structure are explicit, whereas maybe Fe means simply that they're implicit. Maybe Te may be emotional after all, as long as the dynamics of objects has an explicit, consciously thought-out quality. Or maybe the emotionality could come from Fi.

Wouldn't it be ironic if when Gould purposely performs Beethoven in a way to downplay the expression, it's an Fe type "objectifying" the music of a Te type?

(By the way, I'm not saying Beethoven definitely isn't some Beta type such as EIE...just proposing an alternative here. It's interesting comparing Gould and Beethoven, two musicians from whom some people have proposed EIE, yet very different and quite conflicting in their aesthetic opinions.)

[krieger]

Certainly not everything Gould created had the mechanical emphasis you describe. He had a very characteristic sense of charm about him that he infused in his work at various points in his musical career.



Also, like I said, I'm not entirely closed off from seeing him as ENTj. I just usually expect ENTjs to have a more serious, less quirky attitude than him. Like Expat.

[Jonathan]

Certainly not everything Gould created had the mechanical emphasis you describe. He had a very characteristic sense of charm about him that he infused in his work at various points in his musical career.

Also, like I said, I'm not entirely closed off from seeing him as ENTj. I just usually expect ENTjs to have a more serious, less quirky attitude than him. Like Expat.

I saw that one; it's very cute. My favorite part is how the elephants react to his singing. Mahler seems very Beta NF to me.

Gould's manner of speech is very similar to a friend of mine who I think is ENTj. But I do notice that for some people it's hard to tell between ENTj and ENFj. That usually happens when some signs indicate ENTj and others indicate a Ti emphasis (or an interest the person has taken up in things Ti).

I have seen a pretty brought spectrum of ENTjs from over-serious/competitive to ones that have more of a sense of humor...and sometimes have even seen both sides in the same person.

[Jonathan]

I don't have any solid opinion on his type, tbqh, but LSI was the first thing that really jumped out at me as being a decent possibility based on style, as said, and based on a few details of his life which could be counted as inconsequential (for instance, he was a very pig-headed, stubborn, even violent man, very vocal in his disagreements about ways his music was performed, I believe, and a lot of his behavior, such as in how he walked out of employment positions because of not being properly recognized is all very reminiscent of my late guitar instructor who was distinctly LSI-Se and who was very much this sort of person while retaining a certain inventiveness to his methods in teaching and in composing music, as rigid as his methods were in the my way or the highway sense, something I once so much as questioned aloud and incited a disdainful response which I had anticipated but at that point was slightly fed up...off topic...what was funny, though, was that it was LSE father who thought me speaking up would be for the benefit, being very naive, and I did, not caring how he would respond, and he of course responded exactly as I predicted he would due to knowledge of Socionics and knowledge of his temperament in general).

You have perhaps a certain advantage of having personally known a composer whom resembles Bach to you. Is this person's music available online somewhere? I would love to hear what a modern day Bach sounds like.

On the other hand, while I'm open to the new possibility of Bach being LSI rather than LII, I can't imagine him as being the "my way or the highway" sort of person. His music seems so intellectually open and flexible that it's hard to imagine him as having any arrogance to him at all.

In contrast, with Wagner (whom some socionists have typed SLE), even though his music is so rich, wonderful and beautiful, you at times can sense the arrogance, the domineering sense of "German superiority" over everyone else. As the "gods" walk across the bridge to Valhalla to that wonderful music, still one senses this tremendous arrogance and pomposity to that moment, which is a great dramatic event, because while you feel it, you instantly know that it's their downfall later in the story, and yet Wagner was able to write that in as part of the story so convincingly because he was that sort of person too.

As to the stories about the way Bach was, I'd be interested in your sources. I'm not an expert on his biography, but it seems harder to get clear information about him compared to some later composers. One thing that seems somewhat unlike LSI is that he got himself into trouble sometimes by writing things for the church that others felt were too elaborate. In my experience, it always seems that it's the LSIs that want things to fit in so that they're very practical, and they don't seem to have much patience with "wild" ideas, but maybe that's just my experience with a few people who I thought were LSI, and maybe not all LSIs are like that.

As to the story of Bach quiting some jobs because they didn't pay enough, that's a really good example though of how much in socionics people make of stuff because there seems such a paucity of information. In other threads, some people have argued that he couldn't be LII if he quit a job for more money, because LIIs don't care about the money (since "money = Te") and are such nice people that they would never even kill a fly because of Si, etc. Personally I think a lot of that is rubbish.

But here's what I imagine happened that caused Bach to quit that job. He had a whole bunch of kids, and his wife reminded him "Johann dear, remember that dress you said you were going to get me 5 years ago? And the kids are outgrowing all their clothes too. Look at little C.P.E. He eats so much more now, and we can hardly keep up on our budget. When are you going to get a better job?"

I figure it was something like that, but in socionics, every little piece of evidence becomes fodder for placing people into some Reinin dichotomy...

[krieger]

That usually happens when some signs indicate ENTj and others indicate a Ti emphasis (or an interest the person has taken up in things Ti).

Well, ENFjs aren't really supposed to be obsessed with Ti either. It's a slightly scary function to them that they can only really deal with when given outside help. Of course, they like it when they're offered such help, but their own initiative towards the function is not that strong. Also, I don't think there is anything about Gould's emphases that strongly indicates Ti > Te, other than that quick association between him and Bach that probably can be explained in different ways. His extreme talent at manifesting technical performance in music is itself probably most easily interpreted as Te.

[717495]

I don't like those music IM descriptions, and they're subjective (wow just like music itself!). I know people with it as their PoLR who like it.

[Jonathan]

@Johnathan: Bach's Personality Gives some examples of his fiery and intolerant personality.

An excellent source. I remember reading that thread once. I know Brad; I actually used to debate composer types with him, but that was with MBTI types. Haven't seen him for a long time, but he definitely knows what he's talking about when it comes to harpsichord music, and he has done a terrific study of Bach's tunings.

I would be very curious though what other people think of Bach's type based on the link above. I'm not sure that all those misadventures necessarily add up to Se. People often think of Se as equaling aggression, and Ne as meaning that a person is rather pacifist in all respects.

However, some of the things mentioned there could actually indicate weak Se and be consistent with LII...specifically, stating his honest opinion and very high standards without realizing the physical trouble it will get him into.

Not that I would rule out LSI; I've been playing a bit of Bach the last few days, and I always find that different interpretations of a composer's possible type are quite stimulating in terms of my interpretation.

As far as his composing style goes, he would take a melody line and put a different chord for each note and sometimes for every beat or every two beats. I dunno if you read music, but I could scan an example of one of his arrangements: link (just hit ctrl and + to get it as big as you want).

Thanks...It gives me a good idea. His rhythm seems quite wrong to me in bar 3...don't know why he wrote it like that. But I respect people who are good with jazz theory; there's a lot of very systematic stuff to know. In a way, classical music is a lot freer, much more open to individual style and interpretation, whereas in jazz, you need to know all that stuff to make it sound "jazzy."

My teacher, also, was inclined to perform at gigs but if the audience would not respect him by giving him undivided attention, he would sometimes just walk off the stage to make his point that he would not bother. He was also hyper-critical about how music was played. He was completely against up strums, calling that something only hicks do (most guitar players strum by using up and down strums). He even, in his teaching career, had an opportunity to watch Jimi Hendrix play with no admission. He went with some of his students but was so against his style of playing that he walked out in disgust.

Gives me a good idea of his personality, but not a complete one from a Socionics perspective. I'm not doubting your typing of him, but those specific aspects don't seem to necessitate Se or LSI. I think those things are very indicative of a rational, introverted, judging type. I'm just not sure that any those things necessarily points to Se. On the other hand, not being open to questioning or intellectual discussion would seem contrary to LII.

To give somewhat of an illustration of his very rigid personality. He often wrote and arranged music in his free time.

Interesting. I also compose and arrange music in my free time, but I consider that as an illustration of my free-spirited, hedonist, unstructured nature, because usually there are more "important" matters that I'm neglecting to do that.

Bach strikes me as having been a very methodical and determined and practical person. .... Without his determination, I doubt he would have made any real advances in music, not if he was the sort to flirt with mental constructs and lack the resolve to make them a reality, something I see LIIs too often do.

I see your point. But LIIs or other N types aren't all disorganized dreamers and basket cases. I mean, some are very organized. And I think for any person, if he/she really cares about something, he/she might do something like walk many miles...I guess in these days the equivalent would be to spend hard-earned dollars on a plane ticket for some conference. It's really got to matter to you to do that, but people of any type might....

I do see your point about his thoroughness; it reminds me of Smilex somehow. One might think that if an LII were to do it, maybe he/she would do as many keys as necessary to "get across the point" and not compose two whole books of it with a prelude and fugue for each one. On the other hand, I've seen situations where even IEIs will engage in some very methodical project with some thoroughness. Once you start, it's like a snowball sometimes; before you know it, you've finished the whole pattern.

[Jonathan]

Well, ENFjs aren't really supposed to be obsessed with Ti either. It's a slightly scary function to them that they can only really deal with when given outside help. Of course, they like it when they're offered such help, but their own initiative towards the function is not that strong. Also, I don't think there is anything about Gould's emphases that strongly indicates Ti > Te, other than that quick association between him and Bach that probably can be explained in different ways. His extreme talent at manifesting technical performance in music is itself probably most easily interpreted as Te.

That makes sense to me...I think that's a good analysis. It might also help explain his aversion to Chopin (possible IEI?)

[Kalinoche buenanoche]

SeFi

[EyeSeeCold]

I think 90% of all 80s pop is or

[Jonathan]

I think 90% of all 80s pop is or

I don't know... is a kind of tricky characterization...Probably it's either but seems because the emotions in the are "strong," or it's really but the hidden agenda shows.

I haven't check recently, but Rick at point type Madonna as LSE. I've kind of had a Delta sense about her even before that, though not necessarily that type.

[Jonathan]

So even if Beethoven himself was ILI (I don't know enough about his life to give a serious typing), certainly the 5th Symphony has characteristics one would readily assign to Se and Fe.

Although I definitely see the case for, say, EIE...but then I keep coming back to wondering if those strong emotions could really be from Fi. (Socionics is kind of like that image of the dancer where she's spinning clockwise, but then if you stare at the image for awhile, she's spinning counter clockwise. This is true I think of a lot stuff in Socionics...that's why all the "experts" have such a hard time agreeing on types for famous people.)



I think Socionists associate strong emotions with Fe because Fe-ego types tend to express emotions verbally. However, music seems to reflect more the way a person feels inside than necessarily how that person seems to others in conversations.

A lot of times, when I hear Beethoven's music, it seems to fit more the "serious" side than the "merry" side of the "merry/serious" dichotomy, if that makes sense. To me, somehow I often get a rational Fi+Se sense, even though Beethoven doesn't even begin to fit the stereotype of what ESIs are supposed to be like. Nevertheless, often the music seems that way to me.

[EyeSeeCold]

I don't know... is a kind of tricky characterization...Probably it's either but seems because the emotions in the are "strong," or it's really but the hidden agenda shows.

That wasn't a serious statement but if you want to get analytical:

The combination of power, experiencing/"doing", influence, force, impression, danger, gigantic/ominous strength, a focus on the body/touching, sexuality(inferred) and sonic/vocal/lyrical embellishments that stimulates mood in extremes such as anger, lust, and joy inciting expression like dancing.

Here is an example (damn, can't think of any other 80s songs lol) :

[EyeSeeCold]

While I'm on the topic...

+ (also Aggressor-Victim)

[Marie84]

I don't know... is a kind of tricky characterization...Probably it's either but seems because the emotions in the are "strong," or it's really but the hidden agenda shows.

I haven't check recently, but Rick at point type Madonna as LSE. I've kind of had a Delta sense about her even before that, though not necessarily that type.

I have a very hard seeing Madonna as anything but SLE; where's the valuing?