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Thread: Part 2: type/function references in quotes?

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    Default Part 2: type/function references in quotes?

    Hi,
    nobody actually said they are interested in the other quotes I have, but because I feel like I'll post them anyway. (You don't have to answer after all.) :wink:

    This time, they are from the same game, but a different faction. They are called Hammerites (derived from the word 'Hammer') and present a lawful, religious organization. They use many comparisons referring to crafting in their sayings and idealise the working man. Draconic laws are also typical for this group of persons. The 'Master Builder' (or just 'Builder') is the god in their belief.

    I like some of these quotations, because in my opinion, you can actually learn something from them.

    Here are some examples, there are many more: (It's probably difficult to understand because of the archaic language... it's much better understandable in German.)

    And The Builder said, 'If the foundation is weak, do you wail and gnash your teeth? Do you ask it to repour itself? Nay, you tear it down and begin anew. So shall it be with with all My Children, whether they be Stone or Flesh.'
    The soul of a single virtuous man hath the worth of ten evil men, for canst not the virtuous man both slay the wicked and preserve his own?
    Each year of thy life is the foundation for the next. The man who squanders his youth needs must build his life on a foundation of mud, and then wilt it collapse.
    When the Builder walks before thee and builds for thee a fortress, wilt thou go inside and shut the door? Or wilt thou say "Yes, and now I shalt raise one of mine own!
    The Builder gave thou the raw stuff of thy life - make thou a great work of it or thou mockest His gifts.
    To use thy chisel is to blunt its edge 'gainst the stone.
    To not use thy chisel is to waste its edge.
    Mortar cannot hold when the stone is not strong and clean. Before beginning thy endeavours, look to thy material, both physical and spiritual.
    A stroke of thy chisel, once made, canst not be undone, but a stroke thou dost not make from fear is a worse flaw. Be not cautious - be correct.
    A flaw in the gear will fate it to shatter. A flaw in the beam harbours the termite. A flaw in a man's righteousness encompasses his death.
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    The first quote seems strongly anti-Fe and pro-Te. "...do you wail and gnash your teeth? ... Nay, you tear it down and begin anew."

    #2 seems Se, with its focus on power and conflict.
    #3 seems Ni, with its focus on long-term development of things.
    #4 could be Te, with its positive portrayal of personal productivity.
    #5 also seems like Te, with its focus on productivity.
    #6 seems like Ni + Te, with its focus on long-term productivity (both literal and metaphorical).
    #7 could be related to Se, with its emphasis on things being "strong and clean", with a spiritual Ni angle.
    #8 could be Ni, predicting the consequences of actions.
    #9 could be Se + Ni -- an Se weakness (a "flaw") leading to Ni disaster.

    The Ni and Se are what pops out most clearly to me. All things considered, it seems to me that these quotes reflect a Gamma perspective, probably LIE considering their focus on building and productivity.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    The Ni and Se are what pops out most clearly to me. All things considered, it seems to me that these quotes reflect a Gamma perspective, probably LIE considering their focus on building and productivity.
    Thank you, this is a very detailed breakdown. I first thought they must be sensing, because of their ideal of the working man. But on the other hand, all their sayings are metaphors. Beta was my first thought, but I didn't had an explanation for this.

    I'll summarise it again:
    - references to future impacts, warnings of negative effects
    - fighting against nonbelievers, weaknesses ('flaws') and 'evil'
    - being productive as a important virtue, working on the own self
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    These are even worst than the first batch.

    @Krig: I think it's pretty obvious the focus here is on some "correctness", not productivity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    These are even worst than the first batch.
    Because of the odd language or the actual content?
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaDoomer View Post
    Because of the odd language or the actual content?
    More content, though I'm probably biased by religious theme. At any rate it doesn't seem Ni valuing, or Gamma in general. I'd sooner say, don't give a damn about correctness, be cautious and do what makes sense to you. I suppose I'm annoyed by this "just do as we say and everything will be fine" attitude, and this whole talk of building etc. As if it were this simple. No, doing things the "correct" way always doesn't guarantee you results. Seems both naive and judgmental at the same time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    More content, though I'm probably biased by religious theme.
    I'm also critical of most organized religions or sects, but since it's a fictional religion I don't care about that much. If they were be real and would somehow try to change my life and force me to do what the think it's right, things would look different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    I'd sooner say, don't give a damn about correctness, be cautious and do what makes sense to you. I suppose I'm annoyed by this "just do as we say and everything will be fine" attitude, and this whole talk of building etc. As if it were this simple.
    Sure, but they should come across like fanatics and radical fundamentalists. They try to force the people to do good with threats of draconic punishments. There is a typical black/white view on the things, people are either good or bad. It's no difference if a poor man steals bread which he can't afford to feed his family or if someone breaks in houses and steals everything valuable.
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaDoomer View Post
    I'm also critical of most organized religions or sects, but since it's a fictional religion I don't care about that much. If they were be real and would somehow try to change my life and force me to do what the think it's right, things would look different.

    Sure, but they should come across like fanatics and radical fundamentalists. They try to force the people to do good with threats of draconic punishments. There is a typical black/white view on the things, people are either good or bad. It's no difference if a poor man steals bread which he can't afford to feed his family or if someone breaks in houses and steals everything valuable.
    What bothers me is the attitude, not whether it's real or not. And I don't find it in accord with Gamma values as I understand them. Radical and fundamental tends to be more on the idealistic, or rather, impractical side of things.

    The bolded fragment is an example (though probably not the best one) of how this is Ti > Fi. While I agree Ti-way of explicit laws is the reasonable way to govern, I can't jugde along these lines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pied Piper View Post
    Yes, I agree. This seems very Ti + Se to me.

    Edit: Especially the emergent integrity sounds very LSI .
    That does also make sense. After Se/Ni valuing, the strongest thing that comes across to me is Rationality.

    Actually, the more I think about it, the more LSI makes sense. The impression of solidity and the focus on strength and permanence does make more sense as a Static thing.

    Still, how would one explain #s 1, 4, 5, and 6? They seem fairly focused on productivity to me.

    This is fun. Are there any more factions?
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pied Piper View Post
    I think you take things too literally, Te does not have a monopoly on productivity, most people want that, at least Logical and Extroverted Rationals excel into it, as far as I can tell.

    Hitler and Stalin were very focused on productivity and they were Beta Rationals.
    Hmm. I can see that what you say is true, but I won't feel really satisfied until I understand why it's true.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    finally Godwins Law at 16Types!
    EII INFj
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    This is fun. Are there any more factions?
    Actually yes, there is another one. I would have to look if there are enough quotes for a reasonable typing. If you're interested I'll post them right here in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marie84 View Post
    finally Godwins Law at 16Types!
    Don't tell me this was the first time ever. I won't believe you.
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pied Piper View Post
    Goldwin's Law refers to Nazis, not to Beta Rational leaders, afaik .
    Oh, I always thought Hitler was a Nazi... you never know.
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pied Piper View Post
    As an online Socionics discussion about Beta grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Stalin or Hitler approaches one.
    lol, yeah that's probably true...
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaDoomer View Post
    Don't tell me this was the first time ever. I won't believe you.
    eh, I havn't been around here long enough to know for sure, but it's the first time I've seen it used in an argument outside of Airbornes, but that's less about Godwin's and more about him just talking about Nazism in general

    As an online Socionics discussion about Beta grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Stalin or Hitler approaches one.
    Fair enough

    btw I totally support the use of Godwin's, it apparently angers Hitler, which is awesome

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    Okay, this one is especially for Krig the Viking, because he asked for it. Some sayings of the last faction of the game. I think these are not as "purposeful" as the others I postet, so you may can't find much interesting material for any typing. The other quotes were more like rules or principles, but these are not. I actually couldn't find much more than that but I postet them anyway because you wanted to hear them.

    The faction this time are the 'Pagans' which live in the dark forests far away from the City where the Hammerites are. They live in very primitive dwellings and wear rags instead of decent clothes because they shun every bit of technology. They refuse to use machines or tools and worship the 'Trickster', a god of nature. He also appears in a physical form, unlike the 'Builder' (the god of the Hammerites).

    Here are the quotes: (attention, odd language again)

    Builds your roofs of dead wood. Builds your walls of dead stone. Builds your dreams of dead thoughts. Comes crying laughing singing back to life, takes what you steal, and pulls the skins from your dead bones shrieking.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Trickster, the god himself
    The world as I once knew it was a place of magic - full of mystery and
    inhabited by creatures of glamour and terror. The men who lived there lit their
    bonfires and wondered at what crept and lurked in the darkness outside their weak
    circles of light. All their dreams, their aspirations and dreads,
    come from that darkness.

    Now, as the forces of ‘progress’ cover the meadows in brick and cobblestone, as they
    replace the majestic loft of tree with the blocky ponderousness of building, they also
    light the world in their electric, actinic glare. With the lighting of the shadows, man
    loses his ability to fear, and to dream.

    The night, once the font of the unknown,
    becomes only the lack of the sun. I have conceived of a plan to revive the darkness,
    to bring a resurrection of the ability to fear and dream. And, once my dark project is
    realized, they shall know again to fear and love their Lord.
    Danced we in joys and triumphs. With us the Woodsie Lord danced the stringsie
    foolsie man Rose the storms in shouty glee, the darkness in feary glooms, the
    fires in happy greed. Danced we away, and fed the sad stringsie manfool to
    their devourings for our thanks.
    Sings We A Dances Of Wolfs, Who Smells Fear And Slays The Coward.
    Sings We A Dances Of Mans, Who Smells Gold And Slays His Brother.
    Bricky Roads They Trappers Grass,
    Stoney Walls They Trappers Wind,
    Iron Stove It Trappers Fire.
    Trappers Is We By The Works Of Hands,
    And Forgets Us We Were Ever Free.
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaDoomer View Post
    Okay, this one is especially for Krig the Viking, because he asked for it. Some sayings of the last faction of the game. I think these are not as "purposeful" as the others I postet, so you may can't find much interesting material for any typing. The other quotes were more like rules or principles, but these are not. I actually couldn't find much more than that but I postet them anyway because you wanted to hear them.

    The faction this time are the 'Pagans' which live in the dark forests far away from the City where the Hammerites are. They live in very primitive dwellings and wear rags instead of decent clothes because they shun every bit of technology. They refuse to use machines or tools and worship the 'Trickster', a god of nature. He also appears in a physical form, unlike the 'Builder' (the god of the Hammerites).

    Here are the quotes: (attention, odd language again)
    The first thing that stands out about these quotes is the Fe: "Comes crying laughing singing..." "...man loses his ability to fear..." "Danced we in joys and triumphs." "...shouty glee..." "...feary glooms..." "...happy greed..." etc. There's also a sense of violence and wildness that seems Se-valuing to me. It's a dark and violent view of nature, very much unlike the more harmonious and beautiful view of nature that an Si-valuing type would be more inclined to take. Therefore, I think this culture is Beta NF. Possibly IEI, since the quotes given seem more like passive observations than active plans (though the Trickster could be EIE -- his quote is more purposeful and goal-oriented).
    Quaero Veritas.

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