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Thread: LII and difficulty being concise

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    Poster Nutbag The Exception's Avatar
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    Default LII and difficulty being concise

    Supposedly LIIs are known for their conciseness but I often have problems being concise. It's not a problem of separating the main point from the secondary, which I do just fine. It's a problem of not wanting to leave out data that could be potentially important. Sometimes it all seems potentially important so I want to leave it all there. Thoughts?
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    xerx's Avatar
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    Just abstract it to a higher structure that can account for the outlying data.
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    I have that as well. In class, I often start with asking a question, elaborate by explaining what I thought it would be like, or how I reached a certain idea, and then re-stating the question.

    Also, I sometimes begin a sentence and realise all the information that I deem as relevant would take far too long to explain, and so I don't say anything or stop mid-sentence with a "don't worry."

    I'm a horrible rambler when it comes to debating as well.
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    Your DNA is mine. Mediator Kam's Avatar
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    Yep, my father is terrible at being concise. He will just ramble on and on and follow tangents. He knows exactly what he is talking about, but he has trouble getting it all out. Maybe because English is his third language.
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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    I do think being concise is a real INTj talent when they focus on it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    I do think being concise is a real INTj talent when they focus on it.
    Rambling becomes a natural problem for LII when circumstances require that they externalize their thought process. But in all cases, LII are typically economic with their words.
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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    Just for the record, I don't have anything remote to this problem.

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    Just for the record, I don't have anything remote to this problem.
    Don't you wonder why? (ps because you wouldn't have this problem as an LII)

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    Don't you wonder why? (ps because you wouldn't have this problem as an LII)
    Years of experience with socionics have made evident to me that there is a lot of variation possible within the confines of a single type.

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    Yes -- there are two main reasons for why I can't be as concise as I would wish.

    The first is that my aim isn't to convey an idea to someone else, but to relate an idea with perfect correctness. For example, I rarely speak in absolutes, even if it's perfectly normal to do so. A politician might say something like, "Despite our political differences, we all love America"; if I were in such a position, I would say, "While our political viewpoints may inform our opinion of America, causing those with more radical outlooks to be more prone to disgruntlement, the majority of Americans nonetheless have a nationalistic attachment to their country" (obviously, I'm not a politician). I also structure my sentences in a rather unnatural way -- while other people have a rather direct way of speaking, I have a tendency to use appositives, varied verb tenses, unnecessarily long clarifying phrases, and other linguistic quirks that give my speech a more meandering quality. I think I do so because I care about the accuracy of my statements to a ridiculous extent, inducing me to choose my words as I go along so as to minimize ambiguity.

    The second is that I wish to relate many issues to some underlying, fundamental principles, to give broad overviews, and to examine issues from multiple perspectives. So if someone were to ask me about (say) a political matter, I would refer to the pertinent axioms in justifying my stance and would place the matter in the proper empirical context; moreover, I would do the same for certain contrary views to illustrate their shortcomings. If someone were to ask me about unemployment, I might reply, "Unemployment isn't a problem per se; rather, the problem is that many people are unable to earn a livelihood. We do not need to ensure that everyone toils for a certain amount of hours per week, but that everyone has access to a comfortable standard of living. Therefore, unemployment is only a problem insofar as its impact cannot be ameliorated by other means, such as a social safety net". I might then go on to explain the structural reasons for unemployment by pointing to the increases in output that accompanied the rise of mechanized labor and did not require any considerable amount of additional manpower. I would also show how it was in the interest of businessmen to have a high unemployment rate, as a greater supply of labor would lower its price by making people more desperate for jobs and more willing to tolerate worse employment conditions. Given this basis, I could then describe why tax cuts misidentify the central problem -- the inadequacy of the economic system to distribute benefits equitably -- and therefore would have a deleterious effect on the economic situation. The amount of time I focus on each point (whether principles, overviews, and alternative views) varies from topic to topic; on political issues, I might largely neglect the first point while on philosophical issues I might neglect the second. The general theme, however, is that I want to impart to my listener a greater understanding of the topic we are discussing.

    Also, I have a (probably annoying) habit of saying things like, "I understand your idea, but consider the following: blah, blah, blah...", whereby I put my audience to sleep with my long-winded pedantry.

    On the other hand, I can be quite concise in certain circumstances. I don't focus on what I believe to be minor details; if someone gives an overly ponderous explanation of something, I am good at weeding out the fluff and rephrasing the idea in a more succinct form. Basically (from my perspective), my problem isn't that I say unnecessary things, but that I have many necessary things to say, and I necessarily have to present them in a logically rigorous manner; others might think that a lot of what I have to say is unnecessary and that I explain it in too complex a manner.

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    Just abstract it to a higher structure that can account for the outlying data
    HAHA
    You talk like this yourself jxrtes

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    sometimes i do catch myself doing this because some things were necessary in the formation of the conclusion and therefore should be mentioned to show how the conclusion was derived.

    but, with experience and practice, and accepting the fact that when one communicates the point is to have the other party understand as otherwise why would i bother, i now consciously try to pitch the message the way the other person would understand, and recently i am also trying to also do it in from a view that the other person would care about, especially if they are a very different type. socionics has helped me a bit with this. i believe i could sometimes respond with contempt and irritation when faced with what appears to be imbecilic incomprehension, but i have now mellowed with age and tolerance, and knowledge.

    remember that types that deal well with people can also be poor communicators - but their defects are different from this, or could be similar but due to different reasons.

    communicating properly is, however, indeed a lot of hard work. it isn't just dumping your thoughts onto another person and then hope that perhaps it was understood - hence why it's such a pleasure when this does happen, when you find someone on your wavelength. in begoner's example for the second answer, if in the context of persuading the other party/audience most people will not be able to understand that approach. stories work - basically convert the exact same underlying principles and its application to the problem at hand, into an example story of how it would play out in a way they can see. but some topics really are very hard to convert to robust experiential stories.

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