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Thread: Suggestive Deficiency Resulting in Demonstrative Personas (Wow, that's fun to write!)

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    Default Suggestive Deficiency Resulting in Demonstrative Personas (Wow, that's fun to write!)

    Yesterday, while thinking about Socionics at work (for the first time in a while), I began to think about the Suggestive function. We know that if a type is missing stimulation in this area, they become less stable in some way. This is definitely the case in my own life.

    I began wondering about the Demonstrative function (something that has a large influence on our way of thinking) and how it relates to the Suggestive function. They're both in the Vital Ring, and the Demonstrative function flows into the Suggestive (5th --> 6th --> 7th --> 8th --> 5th). Does this have any sort of effect, that of a confident function flowing into a less confident one?

    I'm thinking that when a person becomes more deficient in their Suggestive function they begin to rely more and more on their Demonstrative. The unconscious rationale is probably along the lines of "I'm good at the Demonstrative, but not so good at the Suggestive, and maybe I can support my Suggestive with my Demonstrative!" As stated before, both are in the vital ring and the 8th flows into the 5th.

    From my own experience, I find that when I have less interaction involving Fe (especially Alpha interaction), I become quite cynical and, from my point of view, irresponsibly emotional. This can also occur when I'm tired, which I think is part of my Super Id's Si protest, but it isn't always a factor.

    What I think I end up doing is that I take on a psychological defense of sorts and begin to *act* a little bit like an IEI (8th flowing into 5th ) Instead of reserving my typical Ego responses I can sometimes, among trusted company, become more inclined to comment on issues and even throw in some cynical, sardonic, and emotional points. I'm making it sound worse than it is because a lot of this seems to be in my head, and so others might be oblivious to a lot of this. But when I come out of it, usually after some interaction with Alphas, I often feel ashamed for even having such a state of mind.

    Further, about the IEI persona theory: I'm also thinking that any form of subtle provocation I might be throwing in (bearing in mind that I am basically helpless in matters of Se) are used only to get an actual Ne/Ti/Fe/Si discussion going. If Se is returned, it's traumatic. :/

    So I'm wondering if any type, when lacking in their Suggestive area of life, begins to rely upon their Demonstrative more, and take on a "persona", even if it's just a mental one, in order to "provoke" people more skilled in that area to provide their needs.

    i.e. An ESE can begin to act a little bit like an SLE, an ILE more like an LSE, and SEI more like an EII, and so on.
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    Yeah, it's an interesting idea. I know when I'm depressed/tired, I can get into a sort of "Woe is me, no-one understands my pain" emo mood, which I tend to associate with IEI (as well as Enneagram 4). And I've certainly read and observed that ESEs under stress can become more aggressively outgoing, which could be Se.
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    Welcome back, Currere! Glad to see you posting again.
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    I agree with the basic theory here that lack of stimulation of the Ignoring function results in use of Demonstrative function, since Ignoring is what 'an individual WANTS' and demonstrative is often a RESPONSE, for example in my case if I donīt get enough , I can become a little forceful and violent and controlling and tyrannical, which I relate to my Demonstrative function.

    Basically if you donīt get what you want (Ignoring function input from others) you become sad and you go to use Demonstrative (as it lies in the Shadow of the Ego, its 'dark side'.)

    If you donīt get what you need and want, you start becoming somewhat "evil" - in the sense of using your shadow functions more and more [Id functions]. This is my own personal theory on this. Because we perceive those who use our Id functions as their Ego functions as somewhat 'evil' or 'mismanaged' or 'wrong'.

    I always thought there was something very wrong with ISTJs in the sense of them being strangely cold and forceful and emotionally detached like nazi soldiers and I always had a bad impression of them, something like 'ah this person is that strange type of psycho' when I met one of them.

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    I've noticed similarities between benefit types (e.g. LII and IEI), but other than that idk what to think about this idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airborne View Post
    ..since Ignoring is what 'an individual WANTS'..
    huh?
    3w4-5w6-9w8

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    Instead of reserving my typical Ego responses I can sometimes, among trusted company, become more inclined to comment on issues and even throw in some cynical, sardonic, and emotional points. I'm making it sound worse than it is because a lot of this seems to be in my head, and so others might be oblivious to a lot of this. But when I come out of it, usually after some interaction with Alphas, I often feel ashamed for even having such a state of mind.
    lol. Oh fuck off. There's nothing wrong with emotions. Emotions give me power. You're just like everybody else. You're just trying to cover up your Johnathon-like qualities. You're either awkward or shy, or you're doing everything you can not to appear awkward and shy.

    From my own experience, I find that when I have less interaction involving Fe (especially Alpha interaction), I become quite cynical and, from my point of view, irresponsibly emotional. This can also occur when I'm tired, which I think is part of my Super Id's Si protest, but it isn't always a factor.
    Let's cut out the bullshit. What exactly in life is making you unhappy? What is really bothering you, here? Who seems to be bullying you and treating you like shit? There's always a good reason. You're either avoiding somebody you're afraid to face or you're being taken advantage of and you're not standing up for yourself.

    Further, about the IEI persona theory: I'm also thinking that any form of subtle provocation I might be throwing in (bearing in mind that I am basically helpless in matters of Se) are used only to get an actual Ne/Ti/Fe/Si discussion going. If Se is returned, it's traumatic. :/
    I'm just trying to help. Nobody can really act exactly the way you want them to you know. But I think I have a reasonable question. Just talk realistically and physically and you'll probably find yourself going somewhere. If you are in a job or school situation you like, you don't *have* to keep going to that particular place you know. You can find something more compatible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pied Piper View Post
    When I interact with my Dual or Illusionary, I defend the Demonstrative issues, but of course, using Ti and explaining why that's sensible. I don't have any evidence that I use Demonstrative when I'm not exposed to the DS type of information, by opposite, I think I become more extreme towards Static activity, feeling that "I don't need that" - aka Si or Te, managing things instead of expecting the perseity of my correct rules of thumb to bring the expected results.

    For example, maintenance and proper usage of something is Si/Te. I tend to reject maintenance usually putting quality uber alles, using to consider that something decays or looses (has lesser effect) effect because of poor quality and minimizing the fact that maintenance and correct usage are very much influencing the effect and the quality itself.

    This usually happens when I'm not exposed to Suggestive type of information. The idea is that when I'm not exposed to Mobilising (Fe in my case) I usually completely ignore my Demonstrative, this is why I think that this one is related to the Mobilising function, rather than Suggestive. The Mobilising in a partner (all Fe types in my case) feels like an excess which has to be compensated - that feeling that after much laugh there must be crying too, or the silence predicting the storm, one feels like compensating it somehow or warning against it's excessive usage.
    why did you just describe everything as if you are ILE?

    are you not LSI now?

    <Crispy> what subt doesnt understand is that a healthy reaction to "FUCK YOU" is and not

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azeroffs View Post
    I've noticed similarities between benefit types (e.g. LII and IEI), but other than that idk what to think about this idea.



    huh?
    TO EXPERIENCE HIS 'SUGGESTIVE FUNCTION' IS WHAT AN INDIVIDUAL UNCONSCIOUSLY WANTS, thatīs the complete statement. You could also add something about the Mobilizing function as well, but not some sort of stimulation from others. The individual implements his Mobilizing function as Hidden Agenda on his own without need for othersī help. I typed wrong instead of SUGGESTIVE, 'Ignoring'.


    :wink:

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    I am doing some practical research on LIE and LSE to see if my theory holds true, that is, that because they have as Suggestive function, the lack of stimulation in this area may produce pathological Sociopathic and Psychopatic and Borderline Personality disorders.

    This is because I think there are many severely damaged LIEs and LSEs who become pathological because they were not 'fed' with properly.

    In the case of the LSE itīs easy to see that if he feels without strong personal bonds he often becomes embittered in a violent manner (demonstrative ).

    In the case of the LIE something similar happens, he becomes obsessive with catastrophic things which to him, will likely happen in the future (demonstrative ) and starts justifying his actions based on his apocalyptical views. Sometimes I wonder if Ashtonīs obsession with apocalyptical wars coming soon are a symptom of this on him, but I donīt think so, they usually become Psycopathic which he clearly isnīt. Anyway Ashton is a very good person and people who try to diss him are just envious of him I think.

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    but this is an interesting theory, I know that I become violent and controlling if I donīt feel Iīm living with enough inner true feelings of a personal sort and deeply connected to people. If I feel too aloof, I get depressed and irritated and then react with

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pied Piper View Post
    I'm just putting myself in the shoes of an ILE. In the end, we're talking in principle, right?
    Nice try.

    the jig is up
    <Crispy> what subt doesnt understand is that a healthy reaction to "FUCK YOU" is and not

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    Yeah, I agree with this general idea. I've always heard that it's more that the hidden agenda function "replaces" the demonstrative function--or at least that as you get more information from the HA, your use of the demonstrative lessens and vice versa. However, I would agree that lack of stimulation of the suggestive function could also lead a person to use the demonstrative function more, as sort of a last ditch effort. Like, when our ego functions "run out," when they stop being useful for a given situation, ideally, we would turn to our super-id functions. But when that's not available, yeah, we would probably turn to super-ego functions, which are too uncomfortable to operate in, and then to our id functions. And turning to the demonstrative is usually unhealthy, but it is the most powerful function we have after our leading function. So it may get results, but it will leave the individual feeling out of joint because it conflicts with your normal and comfortable modes of processing. Like, it's not difficult to think in that manner as with the super-ego functions; rather, overuse of the demonstrative just leaves you feeling... bad. Wrong. Like a muscle that popped out of it's joint and needs to be popped back in or something.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

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    there may be something to this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by warrior-librarian View Post
    Welcome back, Currere! Glad to see you posting again.
    Why thank you.

    BnD said: "Oh fuck off. There's nothing wrong with emotions. Emotions give me power. You're just like everybody else. You're just trying to cover up your Johnathon-like qualities."

    I didn't say there's anything wrong with emotions or being emotional. I was talking about what I consider to be "irresponsibly emotional". I think there are better ways to express emotion than others (i.e. venting to someone you trust and not killing another guy involved in a love triangle :wink

    In fact, BnD, I really value people who have vibrant emotionality. I am LII (Suggestive Fe)! Also, it's probably just my ignorance, but what are you referring to when you say "Johnathon"?

    silverchris9 said: " And turning to the demonstrative is usually unhealthy, but it is the most powerful function we have after our leading function. So it may get results, but it will leave the individual feeling out of joint because it conflicts with your normal and comfortable modes of processing. Like, it's not difficult to think in that manner as with the super-ego functions; rather, overuse of the demonstrative just leaves you feeling... bad. Wrong. Like a muscle that popped out of it's joint and needs to be popped back in or something."

    Yes! That's a fairly good description of how I feel when I come out of one of those phases.

    And, just to be clear: I didn't intend to offend IEIs or say that IEIs are "irresponsibly emotional" or even cynical. I just meant that I think I start to become an LII's feeble attempt to be an IEI, sort of.
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    Enneagram: 5(w4?)

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    Hah nice bump, so basically if you dont work on your weakest unconscious function, you become a raging irresponsible ass to compensate.
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If it’s a disease, it’s nobody’s fault. Yay empiricism.

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    Imo the vital ring can flow more unpredictably than the mental ring, and elemental/rational is more set in stone than extro/intro. I'd go EIE-through-LII over IEI, if energy levels fluctuate, also LSE-through-LII. If the persona switch is conscious and deliberate, I'd suspect positivist/negativist was hopped somehow (negativist LII -> positivist IEI being one possibility).

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