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Thread: Why don't INTjs have opinions?

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    Default Why don't INTjs have opinions?

    Why do you choose against having them?
    Last edited by tcaudilllg; 08-13-2010 at 08:34 PM.

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    I choose against having LIIs because ILEs and SLIs are just better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanks Arthur View Post
    I choose against having LIIs because ILEs and SLIs are just better.
    Very funny, Gul.

    But I'll bite: why do you, as an SEI, choose not to embrace your potential?

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    Lol, I was just being silly.

    I don't think any particular type has much to contribute to my potential, to answer your question. It's down to an individual's contributions as a person. One of the most important contributors to my personal development has been this fantastic IEE, but it isn't because he's an IEE, I think.

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    Oh, I feel I indulge in having opinions. I'm simply not proud of the fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanks Arthur View Post
    Lol, I was just being silly.

    I don't think any particular type has much to contribute to my potential, to answer your question. It's down to an individual's contributions as a person. One of the most important contributors to my personal development has been this fantastic IEE, but it isn't because he's an IEE, I think.
    Ah but that's not what I was asking. Let me rephrase it: why is Ne your suggestive function? Why not some other position?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MatthewZ View Post
    Oh, I feel I indulge in having opinions. I'm simply not proud of the fact.
    Really? Why?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Ah but that's not what I was asking. Let me rephrase it: why is Ne your suggestive function? Why not some other position?
    I don't really have a firm enough conception of how the Suggestive function works to answer that. SEI > IEE more comes from other things, like my temperament and Quadra values; arguments for function placement more follow from arguments for my type, but still conveniently make sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Really? Why?
    Why do I have opinions? Because I'm human and therefore prone to conjecture to explain phenomenon that I don't fully understand. (and I don't mean this in a purely scientific context) I'm not proud of the fact simply because I don't follow through on enough of these conjectures and leave them simply unproven.

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    Opinions imply uncertainty and carry no truth, and are therefore valueless and better thrown away. Of course they spring out of nowhere all the time.
    ILI (FINAL ANSWER)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanks Arthur View Post
    I choose against having LIIs because ILEs and SLIs are just better.
    You're being waaaay too opinionated, Arthur.
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    Quote Originally Posted by warrior-librarian View Post
    You're being waaaay too opinionated, Arthur.
    Oh, that's your opinion, is it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanks Arthur View Post
    Oh, that's your opinion, is it?
    It's my opinion that it isn't.

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    When it comes to Ti, "opinion" sounds too much like "conclusion based on insufficient facts and reasoning".

    When it comes to Fi, I do occasionally generate opinions on whether I like or dislike things, but usually it doesn't even occur to me to do so. People ask me "How's it going today?" and I honestly have to stop and think about it and formulate an opinion on how the day is going on the spot, because it doesn't normally occur to me to do so. And even when I do have an opinion on whether I like or dislike something, it seems of little importance to me.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    I find that my opinions on how good something was or is, unless it is blatantly obvious, are usually too changeable according to what other people say. If my opinion differs from someone else's, I will agree with them, but point out one good thing about it, although will still agree with their opinion. Indeed, when it comes to most opinions about things, I end up paraphrasing what other people have already told me.

    For more philosophical ideas, such as, given the recent release of Inception, "How do we know that we aren't in a dream?", I usually end up saying "well, you can't be absolutely certain," and either proving to people you cannot be certain, or point out that I can't conclusively say we aren't dreaming.
    Warm Regards,



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    OK here's what I'm seeing:
    INTjs value objectivity. An opinion is a case of Ti being constrained by Fe personal values, thus increasing the probability of error. LIIs like their Ti to be as informed and knowledgeable as possible, therefore they refuse to allow others' Fe to shape the content of their knowledge base. However, they are alright with dismissing the opinions of others irrespective of the emotional reaction, therefore their Fe function is in the fifth position.

    ESEs fear being changed by knowledge. They discount knowledge depending on whether they think its truth value injurious to sense of self. They do not let "conditions on the ground' shake their convictions and core values.

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    I'm not convinced INTjs see anything particularly wrong with opinions as long as they are suitably qualified (and labeled as opinions).
    EII-Ne
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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by katashideus View Post
    I find that my opinions on how good something was or is, unless it is blatantly obvious, are usually too changeable according to what other people say. If my opinion differs from someone else's, I will agree with them, but point out one good thing about it, although will still agree with their opinion.
    Haha, yes, I do this all the time.

    Friend: "I hated that movie!"
    Me: "Yeah... But that one scene was pretty good."
    Friend: "No it wasn't, it sucked!"
    Me: "Oh... well, I liked what the main character did there, though."
    Friend: "I thought it was stupid."
    Me: "Uh... I'm hungry -- let's get something to eat."

    In the past few years, though, I've been learning to not just buckle under like that, and to try to remember that my opinions are just as valid as other people's. It's quite refreshing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean View Post
    I'm not convinced INTjs see anything particularly wrong with opinions as long as they are suitably qualified (and labeled as opinions).
    Agreed. The main problem is when people start confusing opinion with fact.

    Critic: "I hated that movie! It was terrible!"
    Me: "I thought it was good."
    Critic: "Well you're wrong and stupid, because it was terrible!"
    Me:

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    OK here's what I'm seeing:
    INTjs value objectivity. An opinion is a case of Ti being constrained by Fe personal values, thus increasing the probability of error. LIIs like their Ti to be as informed and knowledgeable as possible, therefore they refuse to allow others' Fe to shape the content of their knowledge base. However, they are alright with dismissing the opinions of others irrespective of the emotional reaction, therefore their Fe function is in the fifth position.
    I think you're confusing Fe with Fi. Fe responds to things based on the emotional context, it doesn't hold long-term opinions or "personal values". That's Fi. An opinion is Ti being constrained by Fi.

    Fe doesn't constrain Ti, they actually work together harmoniously. Fe consists of emotional reactions to the world, while Ti consists of an accurate understanding of the world. Ti understands, and Fe reacts, either positively or negatively.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    ESEs fear being changed by knowledge. They discount knowledge depending on whether they think its truth value injurious to sense of self. They do not let "conditions on the ground' shake their convictions and core values.
    ESEs don't fear all knowledge, merely incorrect knowledge. Due to their weak Ti, they have a difficult time distinguishing between truth and falsehood, which makes new factual information intimidating ("I can't tell if this is true or not! What do I do?!"). Over the years, they slowly and shakily build up a "core" of knowledge that they are convinced is true, which they cling to in the midst of their sea of confusion. When new information comes along that contradicts their "core" information, they simply reject it, because they are not confident enough in their ability to re-evaluate the truth or falsehood of their "core" knowledge in light of this new information, and they fear losing what little certainty they've built up over the years.

    LIIs help ESEs by providing a gargantuan, solid, well-developed "core" of understanding, as well as the ability to quickly and accurately evaluate new factual information.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    You misunderstand the nature of Fe and Fi. Beta Fe is emotion, alpha Fe is opinion. Gamma Fi is equity, and delta Fi is motivation.
    Last edited by tcaudilllg; 08-15-2010 at 10:41 AM.

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    no u
    EII-Ne
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    A Subterranean draws near! Command?
    >FIGHT

    TCAUD attacks!
    The Subterranean's hit points have been reduced by 31.
    Thou hast done well in defeating the Subterranean.

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    it's a pity that real life cannot be lived in pixels and bits
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    I don't see why "emotion" and "opinion" cannot apply to both Alpha and Beta Fe types...and things like "emotion", "opinion", "motivation", and "equity" are perhaps far too simplistic to be attached exclusively in such a manner, even if I personally thought they were most accurately appropiated.
    EII-Ne
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    You actually complemented me. I'm impressed.

    Gamma and deltas, alphas and betas feel they have little power over one another's domains. Betas feel saddled with others' opinions, alphas with others' emotions. There is little they can do about them. There is a sense that the 1st function's state is governed by the fourth -- only the half of the function that relates to the 2nd function is actually workable, but even then only in the context of the half that relates to the 4th. This is why our PoLR seems so frightening to us, because the consequences of employing it seem perilous, at best mixed. (now why is that...?)

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    What was your delta Fi for making this thread?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    You misunderstand the nature of Fe and Fi. Beta Fe is emotion, alpha Fe is opinion. Gamma Fi is equity, and delta Fi is motivation.
    Could you explain further? You often use words in highly specialized ways without really explaining what you mean.

    In general, though, ethical opinions are strictly Fi. So:
    Fi = feelings-based opinions, like/dislike, respect/disrespect, good/bad, friend/enemy, etc.
    Fe = emotional responses, happy/sad, calm/excited, afraid/angry, etc.

    In my understanding, Beta Fe is the pursuit of positive emotion, Alpha Fe is the defense against negative emotion, Delta Fi is the pursuit of positive relationships, and Gamma Fi is the defense against negative relationships. So Betas will put up with and even stir up a lot of bad feelings, in pursuit of greater good feelings in the future. Alphas tend to live more in the moment, and try to "fix" anyone who's feeling bad so they can get back to enjoying life. Deltas try to expand their network of relationships, and try to treat everyone well even if those people don't have a good opinion of them. Gammas defend their established networks of relationships, attacking outsiders who dislike the people they love.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    You're describing the functions, but neither their aspects nor how the functions fulfill their purposes.

    Still I think you have an excellent grasp of what the functions aim to do, something that's kinda blank from my perspective.

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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    You're describing the functions, but neither their aspects nor how the functions fulfill their purposes.
    I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. Elaborate?
    Quaero Veritas.

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    In my understanding, Beta Fe is the pursuit of positive emotion, Alpha Fe is the defense against negative emotion, Delta Fi is the pursuit of positive relationships, and Gamma Fi is the defense against negative relationships. So Betas will put up with and even stir up a lot of bad feelings, in pursuit of greater good feelings in the future. Alphas tend to live more in the moment, and try to "fix" anyone who's feeling bad so they can get back to enjoying life. Deltas try to expand their network of relationships, and try to treat everyone well even if those people don't have a good opinion of them. Gammas defend their established networks of relationships, attacking outsiders who dislike the people they love.
    Um, I've done all of these. . .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Y82
    Um, I've done all of these...
    Do you do Some > Others?

    If you could only do one, which would you pick?

    Would you rather shoot for "feeling amazingly, awesomely great" despite a very real risk of "feeling awful," or would you rather take a sure-fire "pretty good" with zero risk of "feeling (even the slightest bit) bad"?

    I can't much speak for the rightness/wrongness of Krig's model, but given your posts about relationships and all, you seem to fit his "Alpha Fe" pretty well.

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    LII choose not to have opinions?
    LIIs reject Fe?
    Fe = opinions?

    I see what you did there, but I don't know why you did it.
    3w4-5w6-9w8

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    LIIs reject Fe?
    Fe = opinions?
    Where do you people get these strange ideas...

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    Quote Originally Posted by CILi View Post
    Do you do Some > Others?

    If you could only do one, which would you pick?

    Would you rather shoot for "feeling amazingly, awesomely great" despite a very real risk of "feeling awful," or would you rather take a sure-fire "pretty good" with zero risk of "feeling (even the slightest bit) bad"?
    Definitely the latter. I clearly value -Fe over +Fe.
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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