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Thread: ENFP in MBTI and ESFj in Socionics?

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    Default ENFP in MBTI and ESFj in Socionics?

    Is it possible?

    because i was told i am Alpha probably.

    What would ESFj-Ne mean?
    Or ESFj-Fi?
    Last edited by Chloe; 08-13-2010 at 09:32 AM.

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    neither of those exist.
    INTp

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chloe View Post
    Is it possible?
    Yes. What, you think all ENFPs are ENFp in Socionics?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chloe View Post
    Is it possible?
    yes if you don't know yourself very well or misinterpretate what is asked in the questionaires you could easely make mistakes. But you can only be one type.

    MBTI ENFP type descriptions looks most similar to ENFp type description in socionics. Same goes for ESFJ and ESFj.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    MBTI ENFP type descriptions looks most similar to ENFp type description in socionics. Same goes for ESFJ and ESFj.
    That's sort of misleading. I do relate to the ENTP descriptions in some light, and it might stand out more so on a forum atmosphere, but I definitely relate more to the INTP descriptions, and I know some ENTps and many INTjs here do too.

    It's impossible for information element and dichotomy to match up perfectly, and in some instances they don't at all, unless Einstein decided to become a socionicist instead and developed a perfect system for this. Reinin did pretty close, and he actually makes me come out ENTP. Reinin Dichotomies.

    What makes you to most likely come out the correct type in Socionics is to grasp what dominant information element you are, and which other three you value.

    Links:
    Information Elements
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...n-aspects.html
    Information Element Themes
    Last edited by 717495; 08-13-2010 at 10:38 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    yes if you don't know yourself very well or misinterpretate what is asked in the questionaires you could easely make mistakes. But you can only be one type.
    You can only be one type in one system, but Socionics and MBTI are two separate, distinct systems. MBTI lacks Freudian subconscious blocks, and several functions wildly differ between the two systems (in particular, Se and Si in MBTI and Socionics are nothing alike). It isn't even close to being an equivalent system.

    So yes, it is perfectly possible to be ENFP ESE.
    Last edited by Aleksei; 08-13-2010 at 11:42 AM.
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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    it is, and, although one would probably get shit for saying this, I can see Ne + Fi in MBTI resembling socionics .

    it's kinda sucky how all of this ends up having to depend on interpretation If only there was a machine that could accurately determine type..

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    It's perfectly feasible; in fact the coincidence of those two types hardly surprises me.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    You can only be one type in one system, but Socionics and MBTI are two separate, distinct systems. MBTI lacks Freudian subconscious blocks, and several functions wildly differ between the two systems (in particular, Se and Si in MBTI and Socionics are nothing alike). It isn't even close to being an equivalent system.

    So yes, it is perfectly possible to be ENFP ESE.
    if you take mbti flawed functions seriously, then they are different systems.

    if you look at type descriptions, for example ISTP is called the mechanic in socionics and master of tools in mbti. But you didn't mention the descriptions...Don't you think they are alike?

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    I've made a little test to prove my point.

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...tml#post681909

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    Its seems like you guys on the16types.com never agree on anything! I mean, that's common for forums, but I noticed that on this forum particulary.

    What's happening here ? I guess forum would have more visitors if not all discussions are stopped with not discussing, but simply disagreeing with others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chloe View Post
    Its seems like you guys on the16types.com never agree on anything! I mean, that's common for forums, but I noticed that on this forum particulary.

    What's happening here ? I guess forum would have more visitors if not all discussions are stopped with not discussing, but simply disagreeing with others.
    That's why I brought prove based on facts. So you can judge for yourself

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    I've made a little test to prove my point.

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...tml#post681909
    You put only parts of profiles, not long profiles, long profiles dont sound alike. In MBTI, dont know about Socionics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    if you look at type descriptions, for example ISTP is called the mechanic in socionics and master of tools in mbti. But you didn't mention the descriptions...Don't you think they are alike?
    I think the MBTI descriptions are apropos of nothing. They describe how a person using only their first two functions might act, and at that they generally make flawed assumptions -- such as that Fe and Fi are all nice and cuddly all the time. I do think ISTP and SLI are alike, but ISTP and ISTp do seem very close to equivalent (which, note, shouldn't happen because SLI is Si-Te and ISTP is Ti-Se -- same with the eerily similar ISTJ and LSI). SLE and ESTP on the other hand are nothing alike, unless the ESTP in question is an asshole 8w7.

    Don't fuck with me on MBTI. Seriously.
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    such as that Fe and Fi are all nice and cuddly all the time. :
    heey!! I am nice and cuddly, all the time.

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    The point I think, most of us are trying to make, is you can't rely on MBTI for a Socionics understanding. You have to look at Socionics in terms of information elements, and how IEE and ESE differ, and not if someone is really extroverted or feely. ESEs can be Ps not Js, Ns not Ss, in MBTI. They can surely even be Is instead of Es, maybe even Ts not Fs. They can fit into different MBTI descriptions, depending. There might be a lot of ESFJs who are ESEs, but they're not the same. The descriptions of MBTI only have some similarities to Socionics, and descriptions are never incredibly reliable anyway.

    I actually relate the most to INTP descriptions and INTp descriptions, but I don't relate to having Ni dominant nor am I actually an INTp. So what is this "Ni" thing? You have to read up on them from the links I provided. So why do I have superficial similarities to INTps? I don't know, but it's normal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chloe View Post
    heey!! I am nice and cuddly, all the time.
    I know you are. But there are some Fs who are cold, borderline sociopathic sons of bitches; such as the badass motherfucker in my avatar.
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chloe View Post
    Is it possible?

    because i was told i am Alpha probably.

    What would ESFj-Ne mean?
    Or ESFj-Fi?
    Quote Originally Posted by crazedrat360 View Post
    neither of those exist.
    Depends on what subtype system you're using. If you limit it to the simpler two subtype system, then the only possibilities are ESFj-Fe and ESFj-Si (base and creative functions, respectively).

    If you expand it to 8 subtypes- one for each function, then ESFj-Ne and ESFj-Fi are possible.


    Quote Originally Posted by polikujm View Post
    That's sort of misleading. I do relate to the ENTP descriptions in some light, and it might stand out more so on a forum atmosphere, but I definitely relate more to the INTP descriptions, and I know some ENTps and many INTjs here do too.
    Yeah. I'm an MBTI INTP and a socionics INTj. I know some MBTI INTPs over on another forum who consider themselves socionics ENTps and even one that typed as a socionics INTj.

    MatthewZ is a socionics INTj who considers himself ISFJ in MBTI. It's probably not common but I don't think its impossible.
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    Quote Originally Posted by warrior-librarian View Post
    Depends on what subtype system you're using. If you limit it to the simpler two subtype system, then the only possibilities are ESFj-Fe and ESFj-Si (base and creative functions, respectively).

    If you expand it to 8 subtypes- one for each function, then ESFj-Ne and ESFj-Fi are possible.
    Correct. I use the latter, and I told her she could be one of those, on basis on the fact she fits Alpha Quadra much better than Delta Quadra.

    Yeah. I'm an MBTI INTP and a socionics INTj. I know some MBTI INTPs over on another forum who consider themselves socionics ENTps and even one that typed as a socionics INTj.
    LII is the default INTP socionics correlation type. And yes, ILE is the second-best fit. Weird Al's character from White & Nerdy (INTP 7w6 sx/sp) is probably ILE.

    MatthewZ is a socionics INTj who considers himself ISFJ in MBTI. It's probably not common but I don't think its impossible.
    I couldn't comment on that, but the reverse is not uncommon. INTJ 4s (INTJ sappy romantics/stalkers, usually stuck on an Ni + Fi loop) are usually ESI. Examples of this would be Claude Frollo (movie), Severus Snape, and Edward Cullen (yes, sparklefag "vampire" is INTJ).
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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    Here's an excerpt from a socionics page:

    INTj or INTp?
    INTjs are in their element when involved with science, invention, innovation, discovery, theory, explanation, interpretation, philosophy etc.

    And here's one from an MBTI page:

    The Personality Type Portraits
    * ISTJ - The Duty Fulfillers
    * ESTJ - The Guardians
    * ISFJ - The Nurturers
    * ESFJ - The Caregivers
    * ISTP - The Mechanics
    * ESTP - The Doers
    * ESFP - The Performers
    * ISFP - The Artists
    * ENTJ - The Executives
    * INTJ - The Scientists
    * ENTP - The Visionaries
    * INTP - The Thinkers
    * ENFJ - The Givers
    * INFJ - The Protectors
    * ENFP - The Inspirers
    * INFP - The Idealists

    EDIT: More MBTI Passages
    http://www.personalitypage.com/html/INTJ.html
    INTJs focus their energy on observing the world (Accepting Ti), and generating ideas and possibilities (Producing Ne)
    http://www.personalitypage.com/html/INTP.html
    INTPs live in the world of theoretical possibilities (Accepting Ni). They see everything in terms of how it could be improved. (Producing Te)

    EDIT2:
    -=THIS=-
    http://www.personalitypage.com/html/INTP_rel.html
    INTP Weaknesses:
    Tend to "blow off" conflict situations by ignoring them, or else they "blow up" in heated anger (Fe PoLR)

    -=SOUNDS A LOT LIKE THIS=-
    http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...e=Filatova_ILI
    He prefers not to quarrel with family and is willing to go as far as it takes to get away from conflict, even if his partner becomes intolerant. However, in a critical situation he is capable of “exploding,” losing control of himself, manifesting a state of literal madness – in such times he may resort to physical violence on his surroundings.

    INTx = INTX
    I can give you a million more examples if you like.

    To those who really believe they are unique and can be two different types in systems that describe the same phenomenon, you should give the MBTI descrips another go through.
    Last edited by Crispy; 08-14-2010 at 07:02 AM.
    ILI (FINAL ANSWER)

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    That's not really the point. You can call living in the world of possibilities both Ni and Ne, observing the world Ti, improving upon something Te, but that's all just nonsensical bullshit. Socionics is about the underlying thought process, the aspect one uses to interpret information, and understanding the difference between these different thought process. You can't derive it from MBTI descriptions that don't use Socionics terms, you have to read about Socionics. It's honestly the only way right now, or else saying so is just going to confuse people who want to understand their relations with people. I don't know how you are intuitively assuming that Socionics is actually about what these MBTI descriptions are talking about, or even assume that these descriptions enlighten the information elements in a noticeable or straightforward fashion, without being able to apply to other types just as much.

    Granted I think everyone has looked into MBTI already, and similar to me, they probably relate to multiple type descriptions. This isn't going to help anyone further in their understanding of Socionics. The fact is that they would be misleading to anyone getting into Socionics, and pressing the issue of Socionics = MBTI is detrimental to actual Socionics learning, and is full of stereotypes that don't really work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crispy View Post
    Here's an excerpt from a socionics page:

    INTj or INTp?
    INTjs are in their element when involved with science, invention, innovation, discovery, theory, explanation, interpretation, philosophy etc.

    And here's one from an MBTI page:

    The Personality Type Portraits
    * ISTJ - The Duty Fulfillers
    * ESTJ - The Guardians
    * ISFJ - The Nurturers
    * ESFJ - The Caregivers
    * ISTP - The Mechanics
    * ESTP - The Doers
    * ESFP - The Performers
    * ISFP - The Artists
    * ENTJ - The Executives
    * INTJ - The Scientists
    * ENTP - The Visionaries
    * INTP - The Thinkers
    * ENFJ - The Givers
    * INFJ - The Protectors
    * ENFP - The Inspirers
    * INFP - The Idealists

    EDIT: More MBTI Passages
    Portrait of an INTJ
    INTJs focus their energy on observing the world (Accepting Ti), and generating ideas and possibilities (Producing Ne)
    Portrait of an INTP
    INTPs live in the world of theoretical possibilities (Accepting Ni). They see everything in terms of how it could be improved. (Producing Te)

    EDIT2:
    -=THIS=-
    INTP Relationships
    INTP Weaknesses:
    Tend to "blow off" conflict situations by ignoring them, or else they "blow up" in heated anger (Fe PoLR)

    -=SOUNDS A LOT LIKE THIS=-
    Filatova ILI - Wikisocion
    He prefers not to quarrel with family and is willing to go as far as it takes to get away from conflict, even if his partner becomes intolerant. However, in a critical situation he is capable of “exploding,” losing control of himself, manifesting a state of literal madness – in such times he may resort to physical violence on his surroundings.

    INTx = INTX
    I can give you a million more examples if you like.

    To those who really believe they are unique and can be two different types in systems that describe the same phenomenon, you should give the MBTI descrips another go through.
    exactly. or they should buy a book for once.

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    So Jarno, you think I'm an ILI? (I don't actually think I'm an ILI, I'm just trying to prove some obvious ignorance of the facts.)

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    I'm going to emphasize what I see to be the strongest piece of evidence in my last post.

    EDIT2:
    -=THIS=-
    INTP Relationships
    INTP Weaknesses:
    Tend to "blow off" conflict situations by ignoring them, or else they "blow up" in heated anger (Fe PoLR)

    -=SOUNDS A LOT LIKE THIS=-
    Filatova ILI - Wikisocion
    He prefers not to quarrel with family and is willing to go as far as it takes to get away from conflict, even if his partner becomes intolerant. However, in a critical situation he is capable of “exploding,” losing control of himself, manifesting a state of literal madness – in such times he may resort to physical violence on his surroundings.
    Both of these describe the SAME TYPE having the SAME BEHAVIOR (The INTP/INTp version of Fe PoLR). If you look at the other 15 types on both links, not a single one will mention this behavior. So I must conclude either they are the same type, or Filatova (The writer of the new english socionics book) doesn't know what an ILI is. What sounds more likely to you guys?
    ILI (FINAL ANSWER)

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    It's more likely no one here knows what an ILI or Fe-PoLR is, but I'll leave that open to interpretation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by polikujm View Post
    So Jarno, you think I'm an ILI? (I don't actually think I'm an ILI, I'm just trying to prove some obvious ignorance of the facts.)
    It might have to do that you don't know yourself that well, or compare yourself that well to others. You are ILE on both theories.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    It might have to do that you don't know yourself that well, or compare yourself that well to others.
    Or it could be that I'm two different types on two different theories, seeing as though they are two different theories and they don't use the same types or definitions of things. Why wouldn't I know if I'm an ENTP or not? It's pretty obvious just by reading the ENTP and INTP descriptions and the personal preferences of I N T and P, that I'm not an ENTP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    You are ILE on both theories.
    So you do recognize that they are two different theories--sort of. That's a relief.

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    Quote Originally Posted by polikujm View Post
    Why wouldn't I know if I'm an ENTP or not? It's pretty obvious.
    I wonder that too. But since you've changed your type around 50 times, that shows some doubt, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    I wonder that too. But since you've changed your type around 50 times, that shows some doubt, right?
    MBTI is less debatable. There are books and websites about it that all say the same stuff, and all say I'm an INTP. I've never actually tested as extroverted on any test, always strong introversion.

    Socionics is more up to interpretation because it's in Russian, even though by now I should know dichotomies, descriptions and other's conceptions aren't that reliable compared to grasping the most simplist form of the information element.

    If you believe MBTI = Socionics, then you should accept me as an ILI. I can see how ENTPs could be ILE because of stereotypes, and some might not be but confuse themselves as one thus confuse other people too, but to me it's doubtful that these stereotypes are directly connected to the internal process, that is to say an ISFP and ENTP description show two people made for each other, and in the internal sense of relationships. I've been on the MBTI forum for years, hearing about people who I know are typed correctly and how their relationships all differ and don't fit into any consistent form. It just typically won't because they're external manifestations dependent on context and lifestyle. I have some serious doubts about the usefulness of MBTI when it comes to relationships. I know that Ns are often most attracted to one another, and there have been some theories written around that idea, but seeing as though N isn't the same as it is in Socionics, this would be another theory that shows no use here--and it's a downgrade because there's already something called Socionics.

    Side note: consistency doesn't equal correctness. In fact, the risk in clinging to one ideology usually proves insufficient, but we're in such a world that anything can make sense depending on how well you word it or alter it in favor of your thoughts, and people can live in their dream world revolved around their stable conceptions. Decisive risks are made to really only greatly enhance the few.

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    Quote Originally Posted by polikujm View Post
    Socionics is more up to interpretation because it's in Russian
    Horrible reasoning. Model A has enough literature to be as clear as if it were natively English.

    Quote Originally Posted by polikujm View Post
    Side note: consistency doesn't equal correctness. In fact, the risk in clinging to one ideology usually proves insufficient, but we're in such a world that anything can make sense depending on how well you word it or alter it in favor of your thoughts, and people can live in their dream world revolved around their stable conceptions. Decisive risks are made to really only greatly enhance the few.
    INTps fear rules and adore them, because what's clear - they fear, unclear - they dear! Nevertheless, they stick to the rules and they demand the same from others. The rules that can be interpreted in many ways guarantee freedom.

    Notice anything familiar?
    ILI (FINAL ANSWER)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    and I told her she could be one of those, on basis on the fact she fits Alpha Quadra much better than Delta Quadra.
    Can someone explain in few words each Quadra. Descriptions on wikisocionics seem too long and I can fit any quadra maybe there. Something more generalised?

    Also, someone explained me alpha like this : and the person also said i fit alpha.
    young, childish, sharing crazy ideas, promoting intellectual discussion for fun, probably a lot of debate too. That's all I can remember, but they seem the youngest
    is that true?

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    Quote Originally Posted by warrior-librarian View Post
    MatthewZ is a socionics INTj who considers himself ISFJ in MBTI. It's probably not common but I don't think its impossible.
    I suppose I should have the decency to comment on this. I actually type myself as INTP in MBTI. I simply mess with the self-typing field on TypoC to see who will believe me.

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    to people who keep saying stuff like that LII and ISFJ isnt impossible, can you at least reason that somehow? with cognititve functions in socionics? profiles? paralel between mbti ISFJ and socionics INTj.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Crispy View Post
    Portrait of an INTJ
    INTJs focus their energy on observing the world (Accepting Ti), and generating ideas and possibilities (Producing Ne)
    Portrait of an INTP
    INTPs live in the world of theoretical possibilities (Accepting Ni). They see everything in terms of how it could be improved. (Producing Te)
    The bolded part is absurdly, utterly and abjectly incorrect. INTPs in MBTI do not, and I repeat they do NOT have Ni and Te. INTJs in MBTI have Ni and Te. INTPs have Ti and Ne. One does not "accept" Ti or "produce" Ne in Jungian typology -- Ne is a Perceiving (information-input) function and thus one accepts it, and Ti is a Judging (information-output) function and thus one produces it.

    INTP - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Dominant: Introverted thinking (Ti)
    Ti seeks precision, such as the exact word to express an idea. It notices the minute distinctions that define the essence of things, then analyzes and classifies them. Ti examines all sides of an issue, looking to solve problems while minimizing effort and risk. It uses models to root out logical inconsistency.[15] Ti is calm, articulate, and aware of the forces that bind reality together. As introverted Thinkers, INTPs spend the majority of their time and energy ordering the interior, logical world of principles and generalizations in an effort to understand.
    [edit]Auxiliary: Extraverted intuition (Ne)
    Ne finds and interprets hidden meanings, using “what if” questions to explore alternatives, allowing multiple possibilities to coexist. This imaginative play weaves together insights and experiences from various sources to form a new whole, which can then become a catalyst to action.[16] Ne gives INTPs a grasp of the patterns of the world around them. They use their intuition to amalgamate empirical data into coherent pictures, from which they can derive universal principles. INTPs frequently puzzle over a problem for hours on end, until the answer suddenly crystallizes in a flash of insight.
    [edit]Tertiary: Introverted sensing (Si)
    Si collects data in the present moment and compares it with past experiences, a process that sometimes evokes the feelings associated with memory, as if the subject were reliving it. Seeking to protect what is familiar, Si draws upon history to form goals and expectations about what will happen in the future.[17] Si gives INTPs the potential for keen observation. They use this function to gather empirical data, use physical tools, perceive physical relationships, and support their internal logic with a rich sense of space.
    [edit]Inferior: Extraverted feeling (Fe)
    Fe seeks social connections and creates harmonious interactions through polite, considerate, and appropriate behavior. Fe responds to the explicit (and implicit) wants of others, and may even create an internal conflict between the subject’s own needs and the desire to meet the needs of others.[18] Fe drives the INTP to desire harmony in community. At their most relaxed, INTPs can be charming and outgoing among friends, or when they have a clearly defined role in the group. When under stress, however, INTPs can feel disconnected from the people around them, unable to use their extraverted Feeling to reach out to others. As their inferior function, Feeling can be a weak point; when threatened they will hide behind a wall of stoic logic. This can lead them to bottle up their emotions to preserve reason and harmony; but a failure to deal with these concealed emotions can lead to childish outbursts.
    INTJ - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Dominant: Introverted intuition (Ni)
    Attracted to symbolic actions or devices, Ni synthesizes seeming paradoxes to create the previously unimagined. These realizations come with a certainty that demands action to fulfill a new vision of the future, solutions that may include complex systems or universal truths. [19]
    Auxiliary: Extraverted thinking (Te)
    Te organizes and schedules ideas and the environment to ensure the efficient, productive pursuit of objectives. Te seeks logical explanations for actions, events, and conclusions, looking for faulty reasoning and lapses in sequence. [20]
    Tertiary: Introverted feeling (Fi)
    Fi filters information based on interpretations of worth, forming judgments according to criteria that are often intangible. Fi constantly balances an internal set of values such as harmony and authenticity. Attuned to subtle distinctions, Fi innately senses what is true and what is false in a situation. [21]
    Inferior: Extraverted sensing (Se)
    Se focuses on the experiences and sensations of the immediate, physical world. With an acute awareness of the present surroundings, it brings relevant facts and details to the forefront and may lead to spontaneous action. [22]
    Further, INTJ may be seen as the scientist type by some descriptions, but that is also inaccurate. The Keirseyan role variant that corresponds to INTJ is Mastermind. INTJs come up with a powerful vision of change (Ni), and subtly manipulate the outside world to fit that vision (Te).

    Seriously, some of you guys need to stop running your fucking mouths off about a system you don't understand.
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chloe View Post
    to people who keep saying stuff like that LII and ISFJ isnt impossible, can you at least reason that somehow? with cognititve functions in socionics? profiles? paralel between mbti ISFJ and socionics INTj.

    Frankly it seems to me that the burden of proof is on the people who think it is impossible. They are two different systems, thus unless an intrinsic connection is successfully established they should be treated as two different systems. Thus, it should be as possible to score two types in the two systems as it is to score an Enneagram type not equivalent to your MBTI type. To say LII ISFJs can't exist is to me as absurd as saying ENFP 8s can't exist.
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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    I was asking for example more, because I dont know anything about Socionics and would like to see how ISFj INTJ looks like, but i can imagine how enfp 8 looks like..and even know few.
    with Enneagram and MBTI I can imagine any combination, because I know that Enneagram has function of defense mechanism in person, which MBTI isnt. So any combo is possible.
    But as I know both Socionics and MBTI say they define peoples cognitive process, mostly the same thing.

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    The equivalence is closer, yes, but Socionics adds several more layers of depth that MBTI lacks, within which could rest some wild differences between the two systems. MBTI has no conscience blocks (ego, super-ego, id...), and some of the functions are described somewhat differently. MBTI ESPs for example are highly unlikely to be ESPs on Socionics, because of their generally easygoing nature. Myers-Briggs Se draws more parallels with Socionics Si.

    SLE use of Se:

    SLEs are strong-willed, independently-minded individuals who are able to recognize levels of willpower and motivation in others. They are almost always collected and ready for action. They are adept at organizing others effectively towards any given objective, and have no problem "getting the job done," even if it requires stepping on a few toes. They will take the initiative and act at the opportune moment. SLEs will often act without complete information, improvising as they go, but are successful nonetheless. Instability energizes them, as they are active people who think clearly on the move and tend to be unsatisfied with a stationary, peaceful lifestyle.
    SLEs easily spot power dynamics within any given structure, hierarchy or relationship, and strive for a secure position where they are less subordinate to others. At the same time, SLEs are comfortable with hierarchies, and recognize that they are a necessary part of everyday life. SLEs may sometimes seem dismissive of those of a lower social status, as if they were weak or inferior in some way. Likewise, they see dependence as weakness, and so strive to minimize their dependence on others, especially in their personal relationships.
    SLEs' energetic and direct nature tends to make them natural leaders. They are quick to assume this role, even in alien or unfamiliar environments. They usually adopt a direct administrative style and build a bureaucratic structure beneath them over time. They will take full responsibility for their actions, and understand these terms when they take a leadership-based role within a group, company or organization as being part of what leadership is about.
    SLEs are highly observant and take note of all the objects present in their surroundings. They are well aware of which objects they have, and which they want, and tend to be possessive of their property. At the same time, they also have a generous streak and can easily bestow gifts and share their property with others to demonstrate acceptance of the other person or people.
    The bolded sounds nothing like 90% of ESTPs that I know. The underlined sounds utterly unthinkable for any normal ESTP.
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chloe View Post
    to people who keep saying stuff like that LII and ISFJ isnt impossible, can you at least reason that somehow? with cognititve functions in socionics? profiles? paralel between mbti ISFJ and socionics INTj.

    See, theoretically, most MBTI types should more or less correlate with Socionics. The only problem comes with how Si, Te, and Se are defined between the two and how each defines rationality/irrationality, and whether you think the profiles in MBTI/Socionics are actually useful or mean something. Basically, there is very little agreement on anything in MBTI because it is so open to interpretation, whereas Socionics is pretty straight forward once you get a good idea of what the IEs are like for each type and how each function represents itself for each type. This however, doesn't mean it is a perfect system or that people can't change type or legitimately fall in between, although I think most believe your type is given at birth (I have never been able to decide either way). Some have even gone so far as to suggest four subtypes of each type, DCNH, (which could explain why someone might appear to change type) and Tcaud suggests dual-types (although I couldn't tell you how he came up with that system or how he types people or how he would relate it with inter-type relations, so you would have to ask him). I think I even remember Labcoat mentioning roughly that one flaw with this system is that it assumes complementary IEs, which means we will always be dealing with even and symmetrical types and opposing types, whereas a system of non-symmetrical and perhaps an odd number of types might better explain human behavior. I hope I didn't misinterpret too much there.
    Last edited by DividedsGhost; 08-14-2010 at 08:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    The equivalence is closer, yes, but Socionics adds several more layers of depth that MBTI lacks, within which could rest some wild differences between the two systems. MBTI has no conscience blocks (ego, super-ego, id...), and some of the functions are described somewhat differently. MBTI ESPs for example are highly unlikely to be ESPs on Socionics, because of their generally easygoing nature. Myers-Briggs Se draws more parallels with Socionics Si.

    SLE use of Se:



    The bolded sounds nothing like 90% of ESTPs that I know. The underlined sounds utterly unthinkable for any normal ESTP.

    Thanks. Yes, that doesnt sound ESTP at all. So what type fits MBTI ESTPs the most in socionics?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    The bolded part is absurdly, utterly and abjectly incorrect. INTPs in MBTI do not, and I repeat they do NOT have Ni and Te. INTJs in MBTI have Ni and Te. INTPs have Ti and Ne. One does not "accept" Ti or "produce" Ne in Jungian typology -- Ne is a Perceiving (information-input) function and thus one accepts it, and Ti is a Judging (information-output) function and thus one produces it.

    INTP - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



    INTJ - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



    Further, INTJ may be seen as the scientist type by some descriptions, but that is also inaccurate. The Keirseyan role variant that corresponds to INTJ is Mastermind. INTJs come up with a powerful vision of change (Ni), and subtly manipulate the outside world to fit that vision (Te).

    Seriously, some of you guys need to stop running your fucking mouths off about a system you don't understand.
    Sorry, I hardly knew I was speaking to a fool. Let me spell it out for you.
    -=THIS=-
    Portrait of an INTJ
    INTJs focus their energy on observing the world (Accepting Ti), and generating ideas and possibilities (Producing Ne)
    Portrait of an INTP
    INTPs live in the world of theoretical possibilities (Accepting Ni). They see everything in terms of how it could be improved. (Producing Te)
    was taken from MBTI descriptions on personality page. As everyone who knows anything about socionics (apparently excluding you) the MBTI functions are WRONG, as in INCORRECTLY IDENTIFIED. I added the (Accepting Ti) and (Producing Ne) because those are the functions those types ACTUALLY use, which could easily be found by reading what sentence I put them after.

    Note: I am about to use SOCIONICS functions, NOT MBTI functions, look for it. Don't miss it.
    If you think that when it says: "INTJ's focus their energy on GENERATING (Producing) IDEAS ()"
    That it means: INTJ's use/value Ni
    Then: You do not know enough about information elements to continue this line of conversation.

    I don't care what MBTI says it's functions are. MBTI is wrong about functions, but it still got the descriptions correct and they match each socionic type to a tee.

    In conclusion: If you honestly believe yourself well versed in MBTI, then consider your socionic type ENTx, because your mind surely doesn't carry the precision of an LII's.

    EDIT: Further proof I'm right coming up.
    http://www.personalitypage.com/html/ISTP_rel.html
    http://www.personalitypage.com/html/ISFP_rel.html
    Here are two MBTI types that claim to use Se.
    However when you look at the weaknesses they have in common...
    # Need a lot of personal space, which they don't like to have invaded (From: ISTP Weaknesses)
    # Need to have their own space, and dislike having it invaded (From: ISFP Weaknesses)
    This common weakness is an OBVIOUS result of base (socionic) Si (in combination with IP temp).
    So MBTI functions are WRONG.
    BUT, MBTI descriptions MATCH socionic function descriptions.
    Both systems describe the same phenomenon.
    Both systems correlate to each other.
    Many more examples to come.
    Last edited by Crispy; 08-14-2010 at 07:32 PM.
    ILI (FINAL ANSWER)

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