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Thread: Gulenko's Descriptions of the DCNH Subtypes

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    Default Gulenko's Descriptions of the DCNH Subtypes

    [Translator's Note: These are Viktor Gulenko's descriptions of the four DCNH subtypes, taken from his blog. I've provided the links below. Since Gulenko invented DCNH, these are probably as definitive as we're going to get for descriptions of the subtypes, at least for now.

    Gulenko's symbols for the IEs are as follows:
    S = sensus/sensing (Si)
    I = intueor/intuition (Ne)
    L = lex/law/logic (Ti)
    E = emoveo/emotion (Fe)
    T = tempus/time (Ni)
    F = factor/force (Se)
    R = relatio/relations (Fi)
    P = profiteor/profit/production (Te)

    Words in blue are my own, words in red are ones for which I'm not sure of the translation. I don't actually speak Russian, so if anyone out there does speak it and notices a mistranslation, please let me know. ]


    Original Articles:
    Dominant
    Creative
    Normalizing
    Harmonizing

    The Functional States of the Dominant Personality

    First, an overview of the psychic functions. I treat the functions of the psyche not as information aspects, but as an intentional act of a reflective nature - i.e., a specialized act of perception and the psyche's reaction to stimuli, requiring the consumption of energy for its implementation. The "Functional state" is a specific manifestation of a psychic function under given conditions in a given carrier[*]. Thus, we do not observe the psychic function directly, but only via the functional state generated by the psyche of the carrier.

    [*Note: carrier = the carrier of the function, i.e., the person who has that function in their psyche. -Krig]

    Even though the psychic function is always congruent, the functional state can be mismatched between the different levels of communicative space. Most often this mismatch manifests itself as a disparity between words and actions, verbal statements and nonverbal signals. For example, someone claims that he is a man of strong personality, a leader, but his gestures, his pose, the intonation of his voice betray a weak character, an easily offended man, who does not come across as described.

    Such a dichotomy allows us to compare the Man of Words against the Man of Deeds. A man who is talking is drawn to informational socionics, while a man who is doing is drawn to energetic socionics.

    Let us now examine the functional states characteristic of the Dominant personality.

    The main characteristics of the Dominant: an expression of purposefulness with a prevalence of terminal action over reflection. D-personality is obsessed with a difficult goal, which is constantly “itching” in his brain, haunting him. Drawn by strong desire, he tries to reach his goal once, twice. He cannot. But his hand does not descend. On the contrary, he desires it even more greatly. In him is that which is sometimes called the “fighting spirit”, occasionally “playing hardball”. P is supported via E, a functional resonance appears. Sometimes this obsession reaches fanaticism. Maximum motivation for achieving goals. He tries a third time, in another way. Versatility and resourcefulness emerge (it is connected to force sensing, F). Getting stuck, as we see, does not end with dull repetition. Dominant tries another angle, puts aside action for a while. Sooner or later, with such concentrated energy and mobility, changes begin. Supporters appear, ready to follow the leader. Satisfaction is awakened. After the result is reached, it is desirable to set new difficult goals, and so forth. In practical psychology there are well-known techniques for the achievement of a goal: for this one must visualize the goal clearly and palpably, and regularly verify progress. However, the Dominant personality need not be taught, he wields this ability wonderfully.

    PEFI is its ideal functional profile. Таких уважают, с ними считаются. (Such respect, with them are considered.) [WTF?]

    The energy of movement towards a goal, as we see, is the main resource of a brilliant leader. Despite the fact that they are carriers of individual types, people are parts of a whole, although they are in no great hurry to be united into a socion. This requires special conditions, in particular strong motivation.

    For example, to justify teamwork it is necessary to have an specific difficult goal under conditions of tight resources. Even animals are united into a flock in order to survive. But if the conditions of the environment are favourable, each individual wants total freedom and does not want to subordinate his actions to a collective goal. The flock is scattered into separate groups. And if we survive quite simply, a society of loners predominates. But behold, the climate catastrophically changed, enemies attacked or something like that and the stark reality of life forces unification. At first everything happens spontaneously and through self-organization, as a result of which leaders arise -- those who can direct the energy of the group. But then they grow Normalizing, Harmonizing and Creative. And behold, we are already on the way from quaternion to socion.


    The Functional States of the Creative Personality

    The main characteristics of the Creative person are paradoxical thinking and nonstandard behavior, which make it possible to solve problems of particular complexity, which are impervious to the normal, standardized methods.

    The main secret of Creative energy is internal concentration to such an extent, that the external situation is completely ignored.

    I want to recall in this connection an anecdote from ancient history about Archimedes, who drew geometric figures in the sand, not paying attention to the Roman soldiers who at that very moment were breaking into his hometown of Syracuse.

    This state of internal compression and painful contractions, which accompanies the psychological “birth” of new ideas, is quite heavy. In this state it is not desirable to eat or drink, the world loses its color and temptation, and only one thing is desirable -- to quickly eject this idea which turns inside.

    However, in the formula of the Creative it is necessary to write more and the function E, by which the generated idea is presented to public in a vivid and memorable form. Archimedes, as you remember, shouted “Eureka!”. It is difficult to deny the special magnetism and mania inherent in the Creative.

    Lo and behold we derive the formula IFE. However, it is not possible to confuse the Creative inspiration with the emotional pressure of the Dominant personality, which uses this tool much more effectively and by far exceeds the Creative in strength of influence on people's psyche.

    The inevitable sequel to the merits of the Creative are his deficiencies, which greatly annoy those nearby. First of all, talk goes on about his uneven fitness for work and his extreme individualism. Periods of inspiration alternate with periods of stagnation, or even depression. Individualism arises from the unwillingness to accept the group standards. The Creative's superior is forced to make concessions to him, otherwise he risks to be deprived of the uniquely talented one-of-a-kind (you will recall series about Dr. House).

    The Creative subtype in a specific person, of course, can be combined with additional accentuations (any at all). For example, Leo Tolstoy, although he was Creative (function I in him fully maintained by F), at the same time he was preoccupied with nonviolent resistance to evil, which attests to accentuation on the function +R. Such a combination of functions, in which one function reduces another, takes much energy away from a man.


    Normalizing Personality

    Let us examine the ideal formula for Normalizing behavior - LRT. In reality the person who carries out the role of the normalizing participant in a group, of course, merely approaches this formula. Moreover to approach the model is possible in two ways - through R (ethical standards) or through L (logical standards).

    Normalizing by ethics is primary. It arises for the first time when people are just beginning to stick together, not yet having any formal organization. The psychological state R is expressed as anxiety and conscientiousness, affection for his own, loyalty to traditions. Normalizing by structural logic is secondary, because it is formal in character and arises later.

    At its foundation lies the knowledge and observance of laws (“dura lex sed lex”), which requires certain psychological qualities - composure and indifference. Functions L and R reliably support each other: the law-abider is stable not because of the fear of punishment, but from conscientiousness.

    A third, additional function for the normalizing behavior is T (intuition of time). The Normalizing man brings stability, since he is measured and systematic, and therefore quite predictable. He has a good memory, which suggests which traditions have stood the test of time. Society is very interested, so that the people with the N-behavior are many. This is especially true of a society which is in a state of Anomie.

    Normalizing people, in this way, form the foundation of any society. Without them there would be no order and civilization. The civilized man is, before all else, one who respects laws and standards. Why do you think Robinson Crusoe did not go wild on that uninhabited island? The main reason (although not the only one) should be sought in the fact that, he forcefully kept standards - sensory-hygienic, housekeeping, religious-ethical, and even kept a calendar!

    By the way, his prototype - the real British sailor Alexander Selkirk, who spent more than four years on the island of Mas a Tierra, was clearly not Normalizing. Rather, he was Piratical-Creative (primary Creative - from excitable F). Indeed it is well known that in fact Selkirk escaped to the sea because he killed his alcoholic father and he was trying to hide from justice. So that Defoe rewrote Robinson's personality in his didactic way. And he was right. Because ruffians and adventurers are in the end only stories, the inevitable compensation for the strict and boring regularity of prosperous societies.


    Harmonizing Subtype

    The Harmonizing type variant (also known as H-subtype) is formed as a result sustained strengthening in the functional profile of any sociotype of the receptive-adaptive functions S and T. And if we use three functions, then STR. That appears to be the ideal formula for Harmonizing behavior. But why?

    First of all, again, the primary harmonization is on S. Remember the magic Latin phrase “Mens sana in corpore sano” (a sound mind in a sound body), indicating a progressive relationship between these functions to achieve a harmonious state of mind. Secondly, it is a more natural path of growth from sensory to intuition, rather than vice versa. Thus, in yoga you first pass the lowest step - Hatha, sensory, and then the spiritual-intuitive - Raja.

    We will also take into consideration the third function. Although it is additional, it yields important nuances. “R” as the third component of profile will ensure a more adequate harmonization than L. Indeed L is composure and indifference, which blunts the nuances and fine adjustments. And where is Harmonization without them?

    The equivalence ([vzaimoobuslavlivanie]) of sensory and intuition (it is written “ST”) frequently is achieved by means of immersing a person in a trance. Great successes in this matter was reached by well-known psychotherapist Milton Erickson. He was able to immerse people in a trance state by skillful suggestion through relaxation and calling up images from memory (so-called “Ericksonian" hypnosis).

    True, there are more radical, but at the same time more dangerous methods. In particular, the representatives of various psychedelic practices attempt to artificially induce altered states of consciousness (T) by means of chemical drugs (S).

    Internal harmony not as a method of treatment, but as a holistic mode of existence, was developed long ago in the East. It is based on the principle of non-action (in Taoism it is called Wu-wei). The rationale here is similar. Any purposeful activity disrupts the natural course of things. Any action causes an equal and opposite reaction. All places in the system are already occupied. If system is complex and variable, then we cannot know the long-term consequences of our actions. Consequently, to thrash about and push yourself forward is pointless.

    In the western culture, the rejection of the expenditure of effort for the goal of external change has emerged as social phenomenon known as escapism, i.e., escape from real life into the world of dreams, fantasies, and thoughts. In addition to escapism there has always been a more primitive, but in practice easier embodiment of the lifestyle of the Harmonizing personality - Apathy. It is quite common now among young people.

    A few words about the indispensable role of the harmonizing personality in a stable group. The Harmonizer is designed to ensure feedback in the communicative system. It sends the signals of correction, being an indicator of the psychological atmosphere. H-subtype at first sharply and even violently resists forcible demands, but then gradually submits and adapts to it. On the one hand, he is the weak link, but on the other hand, without his contribution the system loses vitality under conditions of the lack of energy resources.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    I had previously only skimmed over these descriptions, since they were sometimes difficult to decipher in the garbled machine translation. Having read through them, I am surprised at how precisely the Creative description applies to me. In fact, I was in that state in which "it is not desirable to eat or drink, [and] the world loses its color and temptation" the whole time I was translating this, which was around 10 hours, not counting interruptions like the bothersome need for sleep. Furthermore, his addendum to that description of accentuated Fi taking energy away from the type goes a long way towards explaining the misgivings I had in the back of my mind about my subtype (i.e., I am fairly reserved in public, and only become zany and unpredictable around people I trust implicitly). So yeah. Awesome.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Yay! I was waiting for the H description. Hmm... still not sure about my subtype.
    You can do anything with a bayonet except sit on it.

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    I still like the idea that subtype relates to temperament, and these appear to relate to temperament, or temperament relates to these, are these, etc. I don't really understand the STR-IFE mumbo jumbo, all I know is it's related to the IMs and temperament, one'd have more use of those functions.

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    well this is a much better article than the wikisocionic DCNH article. It seems Gulenko has included historic and cultural examples to better understand his theory. I'm unsure of my subtype. I have a feeling there will be more articles produced by Gulenko before he finally has a complete picture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    Yay! I was waiting for the H description. Hmm... still not sure about my subtype.
    I'm leaning towards H, less likely N. Probably an introverted subtype. You seem more calm and low-key in demeanor compared to other ILEs on this forum.
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    Great work, Krig.

    These descriptions should also be on wikisocion. Maybe with the western standard notation instead of 2-letter code...

    Let's see...

    Dominant = ~ ESTj / ESFj
    Creative = ~ ENFp / ESFp
    Normalizing = ~ INTj / INFj
    Harmonizing = ~ ISFp / INFp

    Interesting. This system has to be consistent with complete subtype theory. I interpreted the strengthened DCNH functions as base and role (or vice versa) of the complete subtype. The third function Gulenko added now should be the demonstrative function then...

    The question is: If people with an ESTj or ESFj subtype are Dominant in DCNH - what are those with an ENTj or ENFj subtype...?

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    After thinking about it again: It is also possible to interpret the third function Gulenko added as the mobilizing function. Then everything makes sense...

    1.) base or role
    2.) base or role
    3.) mobilizing or demonstrative

    What I don't know is, does Gulenko still claim that the first and second DCNH functions are strengthened in pairs? If we expand DCNH to complete subtypes it simply can't be true: INTj-INFp should have much stronger but slightly weaker than an average INTj while an INTj-ISFp much stronger and slightly weaker than usual.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gulenko
    Moreover to approach the model is possible in two ways - through R (ethical standards) or through L (logical standards).

    Normalizing by ethics is primary. It arises for the first time when people are just beginning to stick together, not yet having any formal organization. The psychological state R is expressed as anxiety and conscientiousness, affection for his own, loyalty to traditions. Normalizing by structural logic is secondary, because it is formal in character and arises later.
    What I understand from it, Gulenko is also of the opinion that either Ti or Fi is much stronger than usual in the Normalizing subtype. So did he dismiss the idea that they are truly "strengthened in pairs"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    After thinking about it again: It is also possible to interpret the third function Gulenko added as the mobilizing function. Then everything makes sense...

    1.) base or role
    2.) base or role
    3.) mobilizing or demonstrative
    Yeah, I'm not sure how or even whether Gulenko expands them to 16 subtypes. He did at one point, of course, but what his current position is I don't know. I've been trying to piece it together from his various blog posts, but without luck so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    What I don't know is, does Gulenko still claim that the first and second DCNH functions are strengthened in pairs? If we expand DCNH to complete subtypes it simply can't be true: INTj-INFp should have much stronger but slightly weaker than an average INTj while an INTj-ISFp much stronger and slightly weaker than usual.
    He's still saying they're strengthened in pairs:
    Quote Originally Posted by Gulenko
    On the contrary, he desires it even more greatly. In him is that which is sometimes called the “fighting spirit”, occasionally “playing hardball”. P is supported via E, a functional resonance appears. Sometimes this obsession reaches fanaticism. Maximum motivation for achieving goals.
    and
    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    At its foundation lies the knowledge and observance of laws (“dura lex sed lex”), which requires certain psychological qualities - composure and indifference. Functions L and R reliably support each other: the law-abider is stable not because of the fear of punishment, but from conscientiousness.
    The key is not to think of it as "Base is strengthened, Role is weakened," but rather, "Base is the stronger of the two in the Ego, and Role is the stronger of the two in the Super-Ego." That is to say, the Ego functions start out at a higher baseline strength than the Super-Ego ones, and then the Base and Role functions are additionally strengthened beyond their respective baselines.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gulenko
    Moreover to approach the model is possible in two ways - through R (ethical standards) or through L (logical standards).

    Normalizing by ethics is primary. It arises for the first time when people are just beginning to stick together, not yet having any formal organization. The psychological state R is expressed as anxiety and conscientiousness, affection for his own, loyalty to traditions. Normalizing by structural logic is secondary, because it is formal in character and arises later.
    What I understand from it, Gulenko is also of the opinion that either Ti or Fi is much stronger than usual in the Normalizing subtype. So did he dismiss the idea that they are truly "strengthened in pairs"?
    Gulenko uses "primary" and "secondary" to refer to the Abstract/Involved dichotomy. Primary functions are Involved, and Secondary functions are Abstract. He's not describing relative levels of strength in that quote, just making a semantic distinction.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    Yeah, I'm not sure how or even whether Gulenko expands them to 16 subtypes. He did at one point, of course, but what his current position is I don't know. I've been trying to piece it together from his various blog posts, but without luck so far.
    It all depends on how you visualize function strength.

    I visualize it as a sine-curve with static and dynamic as a axis.

    So strengthening Ti can have a effect of strengthening Ne/Se and Ne could strengthen Fi/Ti.

    So for me it's like this as far as function accentuation.

    ___Ti_Se
    Ne______
    _________Fi

    I'm still ILE but relative to other ILE's I'm like this. This is why I type myself if using a 16 subtype model as ILE-LSI.

    Anyways, it's a pretty simple concept since type is just the same visualization.

    Ne
    ___Ti
    _____Se
    _______Fi

    Except perhaps more linear a example. Put them together and it's more like

    Ne_Ti
    ______Se
    _________
    _________Fi

    With a sharp drop for Fi.
    Last edited by mu4; 08-15-2010 at 12:05 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chip View Post
    well this is a much better article than the wikisocionic DCNH article. It seems Gulenko has included historic and cultural examples to better understand his theory. I'm unsure of my subtype. I have a feeling there will be more articles produced by Gulenko before he finally has a complete picture.
    I'm still confused too. I related to a combination of C, N and H. Okay, I'm probably more H than anything but I'm the mood for some questioning of my subtype.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    Great work, Krig.


    Let's see...

    Dominant = ~ ESTj / ESFj
    Creative = ~ ENFp / ESFp
    Normalizing = ~ INTj / INFj
    Harmonizing = ~ ISFp / INFp
    Hmmm, going by that, creative is highly unlikely. Enhanced , yes but there's no way I have enhanced or .
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    Quote Originally Posted by warrior-librarian View Post
    I'm still confused too. I related to a combination of C, N and H. Okay, I'm probably more H than anything but I'm the mood for some questioning of my subtype.
    Which parts of each did you relate to?
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    Which parts of each did you relate to?
    CREATIVE:

    paradoxical thinking and nonstandard behavior, which make it possible to solve problems of particular complexity, which are impervious to the normal, standardized methods.

    The main secret of Creative energy is internal concentration to such an extent, that the external situation is completely ignored.

    Yes to all of the above

    I want to recall in this connection an anecdote from ancient history about Archimedes, who drew geometric figures in the sand, not paying attention to the Roman soldiers who at that very moment were breaking into his hometown of Syracuse.

    Hah! I can certainly relate to this example

    This state of internal compression and painful contractions, which accompanies the psychological “birth” of new ideas, is quite heavy. In this state it is not desirable to eat or drink, the world loses its color and temptation, and only one thing is desirable -- to quickly eject this idea which turns inside.

    Sort of. I'm capable of temporarily setting physical needs aside when in the midst of some really interesting project.

    However, in the formula of the Creative it is necessary to write more and the function E, by which the generated idea is presented to public in a vivid and memorable form. Archimedes, as you remember, shouted “Eureka!”. It is difficult to deny the special magnetism and mania inherent in the Creative.

    All true except the last sentence. I'm not particularly magnetic or manic at least not on the outside. Inwardly I'm very enthusiastic about my ideas.

    The inevitable sequel to the merits of the Creative are his deficiencies, which greatly annoy those nearby. First of all, talk goes on about his uneven fitness for work and his extreme individualism.

    Uneven fitness for work, yes. I am pretty individualistic but not in the extreme. I do have some need to fit in.

    Periods of inspiration alternate with periods of stagnation, or even depression.

    Yes again

    Individualism arises from the unwillingness to accept the group standards. The Creative's superior is forced to make concessions to him, otherwise he risks to be deprived of the uniquely talented one-of-a-kind (you will recall series about Dr. House).

    I don't relate to most of this. I am usually willing to accept the group's standards unless they are really unreasonable or don't make logical sense. I feel don't like any superior is forced to make concessions to me. Maybe that's more of an enhanced thing?
    Last edited by The Exception; 08-15-2010 at 11:14 AM.
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    Normalizing Personality

    The psychological state R is expressed as anxiety and conscientiousness, affection for his own, loyalty to traditions.

    I am quite anxious internally and very conscientious. Loyalty to traditions- it depends. I'm not overly traditional but there are a few I'm quite loyal to I suppose.


    At its foundation lies the knowledge and observance of laws (“dura lex sed lex”), which requires certain psychological qualities - composure and indifference. Functions L and R reliably support each other: the law-abider is stable not because of the fear of punishment, but from conscientiousness.

    Ha! I'm both conscientious and fear punishment.

    A third, additional function for the normalizing behavior is T (intuition of time). The Normalizing man brings stability, since he is measured and systematic, and therefore quite predictable. He has a good memory, which suggests which traditions have stood the test of time.

    Yes to all of this

    Normalizing people, in this way, form the foundation of any society. Without them there would be no order and civilization. The civilized man is, before all else, one who respects laws and standards.

    Yes, most of the time. I respect laws and standards unless they don't make logical sense.

    Why do you think Robinson Crusoe did not go wild on that uninhabited island? The main reason (although not the only one) should be sought in the fact that, he forcefully kept standards - sensory-hygienic, housekeeping, religious-ethical, and even kept a calendar!

    Yes, I relate to this example. I set alot of standards for myself that I try to uphold but I don't know if I'm quite as anal as this example seems to illustrate.
    Last edited by The Exception; 08-15-2010 at 11:12 AM.
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    Harmonizing Subtype



    First of all, again, the primary harmonization is on S. Remember the magic Latin phrase “Mens sana in corpore sano” (a sound mind in a sound body), indicating a progressive relationship between these functions to achieve a harmonious state of mind.

    Yes, my own peace of mind is most important.

    Internal harmony not as a method of treatment, but as a holistic mode of existence, was developed long ago in the East. It is based on the principle of non-action (in Taoism it is called Wu-wei). The rationale here is similar. Any purposeful activity disrupts the natural course of things. Any action causes an equal and opposite reaction. All places in the system are already occupied. If system is complex and variable, then we cannot know the long-term consequences of our actions. Consequently, to thrash about and push yourself forward is pointless.

    Only half true of me. I like activity to be purposeful and don't see it as disrupting the course of things. I agree that often we can't know the long term consequences of our actions. I don't think pushing yourself forward is necessarily pointless but I don't like to see wasted efforts on things.

    In the western culture, the rejection of the expenditure of effort for the goal of external change has emerged as social phenomenon known as escapism, i.e., escape from real life into the world of dreams, fantasies, and thoughts. In addition to escapism there has always been a more primitive, but in practice easier embodiment of the lifestyle of the Harmonizing personality - Apathy. It is quite common now among young people.

    I do alot of daydreaming and fantasizing in my head but I don't consider myself apathetic in the least. Maybe I appear that way on the outside because I keep alot of my enthusiasm to myself.

    A few words about the indispensable role of the harmonizing personality in a stable group. The Harmonizer is designed to ensure feedback in the communicative system. It sends the signals of correction, being an indicator of the psychological atmosphere. H-subtype at first sharply and even violently resists forcible demands, but then gradually submits and adapts to it. On the one hand, he is the weak link, but on the other hand, without his contribution the system loses vitality under conditions of the lack of energy resources.

    I very much relate to this last paragraph. I'm very sensitive to psychological atmosphere and a good atmosphere is conducive to my well-being. Yes to being initially resistant to forceful demands. Later I'll often find myself giving into them, sometimes regretting it later. I often feel like I'm the weak link and question my significance in a group.
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Follow-up questions:

    Quote Originally Posted by warrior-librarian View Post
    Sort of. I'm capable of temporarily setting physical needs aside when in the midst of some really interesting project.
    By "capable", do you mean "it sometimes happens" or "I can do it if I have to"?

    Quote Originally Posted by warrior-librarian View Post
    Uneven fitness for work, yes. I am pretty individualistic but not in the extreme. I do have some need to fit in.
    When you're in a completely comfortable environment, i.e., you know that everyone there likes you and won't judge you or attack you for anything you do, do you find yourself becoming more lively and ILE-ish, talking at length about your crazy ideas to anyone who will listen? Or do you kind of sit back, chill out, and enjoy the love?

    Regarding the Harmonizing description: the three paragraphs there about trances and Taoism and stuff seem to me like a bit of a digression from the core description. I highly doubt that all or even most Harmonizing subtypes, at least in the Western world, do much meditating or hypnotism, and I don't think there's a 1:1 correlation between adhering to Taoism and being a Harmonizing subtype. Gulenko is making a point there that is somewhat tangential to how Harmonizing subtype actually manifests in real life.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    True, there are more radical, but at the same time more dangerous methods. In particular, the representatives of various psychedelic practices attempt to artificially induce altered states of consciousness (T) by means of chemical drugs (S).
    I'm officially certain of my DCNH type. Thanks Krig!
    ILI (FINAL ANSWER)

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    Poster Nutbag The Exception's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    Follow-up questions:


    By "capable", do you mean "it sometimes happens" or "I can do it if I have to"?
    It sometimes happens


    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    When you're in a completely comfortable environment, i.e., you know that everyone there likes you and won't judge you or attack you for anything you do, do you find yourself becoming more lively and ILE-ish, talking at length about your crazy ideas to anyone who will listen? Or do you kind of sit back, chill out, and enjoy the love?
    Become more lively and ILE-ish.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    Regarding the Harmonizing description: the three paragraphs there about trances and Taoism and stuff seem to me like a bit of a digression from the core description. I highly doubt that all or even most Harmonizing subtypes, at least in the Western world, do much meditating or hypnotism, and I don't think there's a 1:1 correlation between adhering to Taoism and being a Harmonizing subtype. Gulenko is making a point there that is somewhat tangential to how Harmonizing subtype actually manifests in real life.
    Yeah, I got that same impression.
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    On the Harmonizing description:

    As opposed to seeing those as suggestive indicators of H subtypes, I think it rather points to the general subjective mindset of H subtypes, of tending towards some kind of trance-like state, or being inclined to a certain kind of...mental modification, if you will.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    Follow-up questions:


    By "capable", do you mean "it sometimes happens" or "I can do it if I have to"?


    When you're in a completely comfortable environment, i.e., you know that everyone there likes you and won't judge you or attack you for anything you do, do you find yourself becoming more lively and ILE-ish, talking at length about your crazy ideas to anyone who will listen? Or do you kind of sit back, chill out, and enjoy the love?

    Regarding the Harmonizing description: the three paragraphs there about trances and Taoism and stuff seem to me like a bit of a digression from the core description. I highly doubt that all or even most Harmonizing subtypes, at least in the Western world, do much meditating or hypnotism, and I don't think there's a 1:1 correlation between adhering to Taoism and being a Harmonizing subtype. Gulenko is making a point there that is somewhat tangential to how Harmonizing subtype actually manifests in real life.
    One of the modern weaknesses of the professional socionics community is that it is largely seen through liberal lenses. Lack of experience with conservatives leads to these kinds of miss-ascriptions. Still, caution that Gulenko wasn't just trying to give a "broader view" of the type -- traits come down to one statement of fact and a million context-dependent examples.

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    Warrior: For Ti-leading, I've noticed that the way Ti is described by various authors is one of either a puzzling out style, where the person creates their own systems and fits things together in a subjective way, or of a more pedantic style, where a rule-based system is created and followed, or external laws and systems are upheld. The puzzling out style is native to me, like I described in Disco’s thread “LSI vs. SLE thought” but he demonstrates a more law-ruled style in how he describes his own thought-process there and in other places. I believe the two different styles of Ti correspond to creative vs. normalizing subtypes most clearly (while other factors dominate in D & H .. and you appear to be H from what you've described.) But, between C and N, it can be simplified as:

    creative = Deciphering nature
    normalizing = Standarizing nature

    I identify strongly with what Krig wrote about himself and the creative subtype. I too can get lost in working on a problem, and many hours pass unnoticed while I sort everything into place. Then finally, with satisfaction the last piece clicks into place. I get so excited when I have something to work on and solve – a puzzle awaiting me to be tackled. Sometimes I have to put it off, because if I dare to start on it, I won’t want to quit working, and can forget everything else in the meantime. Holding my focus is more than easy, and it’s difficult to scatter it when I’m entrenched in something.

    C-Ti is interested in exploring and piecing together understanding into a subjective picture, that is an exposition on reality rather than a direct copy. N-Ti attempts to objectify and codify the subjective experience. It's normalizing (standarizing, objectifying) their understanding into rules or codes.

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    Poster Nutbag The Exception's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    Warrior: For Ti-leading, I've noticed that the way Ti is described by various authors is one of either a puzzling out style, where the person creates their own systems and fits things together in a subjective way, or of a more pedantic style, where a rule-based system is created and followed, or external laws and systems are upheld.
    I do alot of both. I think the puzzling fits a bit more.


    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    and you appear to be H from what you've described.
    Which things in particular that I said made you conclude H?


    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    But, between C and N, it can be simplified as:

    creative = Deciphering nature
    normalizing = Standarizing nature
    I relate to both. Probably the deciphering one more.

    What would you say are the 'natures' for harmonizing and dominant?

    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    I identify strongly with what Krig wrote about himself and the creative subtype. I too can get lost in working on a problem, and many hours pass unnoticed while I sort everything into place. Then finally, with satisfaction the last piece clicks into place. I get so excited when I have something to work on and solve – a puzzle awaiting me to be tackled. Sometimes I have to put it off, because if I dare to start on it, I won’t want to quit working, and can forget everything else in the meantime. Holding my focus is more than easy, and it’s difficult to scatter it when I’m entrenched in something.
    I very much relate to this. Largely why I've considered creative subtype as a strong possibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    C-Ti is interested in exploring and piecing together understanding into a subjective picture, that is an exposition on reality rather than a direct copy. N-Ti attempts to objectify and codify the subjective experience. It's normalizing (standarizing, objectifying) their understanding into rules or codes.
    Can you clarify what the bolded part means? An everyday example would be helpful. Thanks.
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    squark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by warrior-librarian View Post
    I do alot of both. I think the puzzling fits a bit more.




    Which things in particular that I said made you conclude H?




    I relate to both. Probably the deciphering one more.

    What would you say are the 'natures' for harmonizing and dominant?
    dominant is both a leading and conquering nature, taking charge and making things happen. It's more than just goal-setting and determination. These are the people everyone notices because they can't help but stand out. If N is creating and following laws, and C is solving the puzzle, D is out in front changing reality. An LSI- D, would be heavy on the Se, using Ti only as a tool and support, bending the structure rather than obeying or trying to understand it, much more SLE-ish. D-LII would look like a driven ILE, making things happen. A super nerd (Just kidding!!) but some of those relentless and achievement oriented tech guys who build incredible stuff and accomplish a lot could be D-LIIs.

    Harmonizing is a yielding and well, harmonizing nature. They bring things, people, ideas together while stepping into the background themselves. I thought you could be one because of what you said here "I'm very sensitive to psychological atmosphere and a good atmosphere is conducive to my well-being. Yes to being initially resistant to forceful demands. Later I'll often find myself giving into them, sometimes regretting it later. I often feel like I'm the weak link and question my significance in a group." But, that could also be just a lack of confidence plus Si-seeking.



    I very much relate to this. Largely why I've considered creative subtype as a strong possibility.
    oh okay. I misunderstood you then. I thought you said that it was only something you could do, not a regular way of being for you.



    Can you clarify what the bolded part means? An everyday example would be helpful. Thanks.
    Just means you internalize it into your own system. For example, when I'm sorting out events to understand something, they don't stay in the order in which they actually happened. Instead I move them around as to how they relate to each other and make sense together, the order doesn't matter.

    We all translate reality in some form, even direct experiences are translated through your body into a perception of that experience. N's take those experiences and translate them into laws and codes and try to lay the codes onto reality. C's take the experiences and try to fit them into what they've already determined makes sense - their own personal model of reality that the various pieces fit into.

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