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Thread: Beta Quadra and Romanticizing Conflict

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    Default Beta Quadra and Romanticizing Conflict

    I had it wrong, being beta isn't about romanticizing violence, it's about romanticizing conflict and physical aggression is merely a facet of that.

    I really do think that is the case. Isn't there something romantic about the strong over coming the weak? The weak over coming the strong? The mighty being humbled, the humble becoming mighty.

    It's just as awe inspiring to me to watch some one reach the top through cunning and skilled use of intellect as it is through physical force.

    Climbing the unclimbable, beating the unbeatable, over coming the odds no matter how high they are stacked against you. There's something beautiful in that.

    I personally view myself as a pretty strong willed and free-spirited person and I really do believe there is something romantic in the idea of a girl who can bend me to her will, force me to become vulnerable even if it's through manipulation of my pre-existing feelings for her. I long for someone who can do that, but will never willing submit just so I can feel subjugated.

    It's about finding that dark dirty secret that makes the perfect person... human, exposing what was never meant to be seen.


    There is absolutely nothing enlightened about letting your voice go unheard for fear of offending others. There's nothing virtuous about helping those who've squandered every opportunity to rise from squalor.

    Let, the bored, the uncaring, the disinterested, and the unmotivated to their lot. There are obstacles to overcome, things to be achieved, mountains to climb, and trophies to win.

    I will give life every ounce of effort I've got, come at it with the full force my arsenal is capable of. But damn... wouldn't it be something if that still wasn't enough?
    Easy Day

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    somebody help him find his timemachine and go back to the 80s .
    unholy water sanguine addiction

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    Are you reading Ayn Rand
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Are you reading Ayn Rand
    Nope, Ayn Rand is so dry and unpalatable. Generally for me to read a book I have to care about the characters and I just couldn't give a shit about Dagny Taggart.
    Easy Day

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    You should try The Fountainhead. Howard Roark is infinitely more compelling and actually has a soul, beyond being a literary locomotive for ideological advancement. Atlas Shrugged was the embodiment of her philosophy, which, IMO, was more geared towards appealing to a broader audience, more of a flag/rallying cry for her movement that the people she thought should be uplifted for society's sake could identify with; Fountainhead was more like her artistic memento.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    You should try The Fountainhead. Howard Roark is infinitely more compelling and actually has a soul, beyond being a literary locomotive for ideological advancement. Atlas Shrugged was the embodiment of her philosophy, which, IMO, was more geared towards appealing to a broader audience, more of a flag/rallying cry for her movement that the people she thought should be uplifted for society's sake could identify with; Fountainhead was more like her artistic memento.
    I'll give it a shot. I assume your original comment was because this perspective seems to have been influenced by Ayn Rand?
    Easy Day

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    Well, because it was either influenced by it, or generally aligned with it, either of which should be brought to your attention
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Well, because it was either influenced by it, or generally aligned with it, either of which should be brought to your attention
    lol Thanks hommie.
    Easy Day

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    Quote Originally Posted by JWC3 View Post
    Nope, Ayn Rand is so dry and unpalatable. Generally for me to read a book I have to care about the characters and I just couldn't give a shit about Dagny Taggart.
    !!!

    check out the romantic manifesto...

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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    !!!

    check out the romantic manifesto...
    lol ok, ok I get it. Lemme re-phrase. Ayn Rand made a terrible first impression on me with Atlas Shrugged. However, I understand that all of her books may not be like that one and I will give her another shot.
    Easy Day

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    Atlas is crappy. Part of the message is good, but that she so politicizes the money aspect of it is unnecessary, IMO. Fountainhead is pure gold.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    You can be so undeservingly pedantic. You're sly about it, though.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Gun?
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    I'm a pretty good wrestler.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    I'm good at catching sly. Haven't you noticed yet?
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    Maybe that's what you meant, but you focused on "violence" for some reason, and in my opinion, violence or no violence is kind of irrelevant.
    I'm pretty sure I wrote off violence in the first sentence as something that can be a manifestation of a need to over come something. *RE-reads his first post* Yeah I did. And more or less I never said anything about reaching the top of pre-existing hierarchies or the top of ones own created hierarchies. That's a distinction to be made by the person, not by me.

    And as for beta hierarchies being subjective. No shit. I could view it as very important to become the best competitive eater in the universe and you might not give two shits about that. Your applying your own literal meaning to my subjective and incomplete musings and then correcting me for being wrong.
    Easy Day

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    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    catch me
    boring.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    You're both eating at each other for projecting, and you're both projecting. Chillax.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    Yeah, cause you've never romanticized violence and conning before.
    Yeah I have, I totally fucking have. This my epiphany that rectifying that. I've essentially realized that it's deeper than violence.
    Easy Day

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    You're both eating at each other for projecting, and you're both projecting. Chillax.
    I don't wanna, I enjoy fighting and as far as people to fight with go ananke is a pretty worthwhile opponent. In fact, more often than not I'd rather argue about anything with almost no regard as to the subject. The arguing is more fun.
    Easy Day

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    I win.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    Fuck. You made me laugh.
    lol *Funky Dance*
    Easy Day

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    I win.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  24. #24
    Creepy-female

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    Quote Originally Posted by JWC3 View Post
    I had it wrong, being beta isn't about romanticizing violence, it's about romanticizing conflict and physical aggression is merely a facet of that.

    I really do think that is the case. Isn't there something romantic about the strong over coming the weak? The weak over coming the strong? The mighty being humbled, the humble becoming mighty.

    It's just as awe inspiring to me to watch some one reach the top through cunning and skilled use of intellect as it is through physical force.
    THANK YOU. Now it's clear that Se is not directly related to physical aggression. It has to do with effectiveness. When you want something, it simply isn't always effective to be a blundering brute. Perhaps this sort of thing was confused with persistence. But there is a lot more to persistence of will and a singularity of goal than pounding your opponent with your funny little fucking stone fist. And you're right, to value something you have to know the feel of it's absence. Without the disparity, without the distinction, the presence of it is meaningless. So you set a goal, and break yourself against it, and your shin splints, your pain, the way he lay among his denim blankets, groaning in pain, that paid off, those weak legs gradually become thick bones, and now he squints his eyes in the sun, and runs, like an animal, calves tensing. It's beautiful. But I think it's easier to attribute willpower to that. It's less easy to put your finger on the goal when your brain bleeds little ribbons of blood and the wounds don't close. And with so much struggling, you reach what you had looked for..and it isn't there. Your goal is gone. Well guess what. It's not a 1 + 1 equation. Now the struggling changed you. And it's something you've got to live with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    THANK YOU. Now it's clear that Se is not directly related to physical aggression. It has to do with effectiveness. When you want something, it simply isn't always effective to be a blundering brute. Perhaps this sort of thing was confused with persistence. But there is a lot more to persistence of will and a singularity of goal than pounding your opponent with your funny little fucking stone fist. And you're right, to value something you have to know the feel of it's absence. Without the disparity, without the distinction, the presence of it is meaningless. So you set a goal, and break yourself against it, and your shin splints, your pain, the way he lay among his denim blankets, groaning in pain, that paid off, those weak legs gradually become thick bones, and now he squints his eyes in the sun, and runs, like an animal, calves tensing. It's beautiful. But I think it's easier to attribute willpower to that. It's less easy to put your finger on the goal when your brain bleeds little ribbons of blood and the wounds don't close. And with so much struggling, you reach what you had looked for..and it isn't there. Your goal is gone. Well guess what. It's not a 1 + 1 equation. Now the struggling changed you. And it's something you've got to live with.

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    yeah that was a little much. 'nuff with the Si role.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    yeah that was a little much. 'nuff with the Si role.
    agreed, way too much.
    <Crispy> what subt doesnt understand is that a healthy reaction to "FUCK YOU" is and not

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    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    It's less easy to put your finger on the goal when your brain bleeds little ribbons of blood and the wounds don't close.
    forget about the goal! you're bleeding for a reason, anyway. no use tending the wound, you have to defeat pain with greater pain.

  29. #29
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    You see expression that has an emotional tone to it as borne out of emotional expression. You can make fun of it all you want, because I can't fucking stop you from attributing shit I never thought of and didn't mean. And yes it's uncomfortable for me because that wasn't the point. I didn't think of how the expression would be analyzed for its stupid emotional nuances and ironies. Oh my god I said ribbons of blood, I'm soo Fe. It's like before I didn't have to analyze shit in terms of what I could and couldn't say. Kindly provide a real Socionics explanation instead of indirectly proving you can't comprehend a Te/Fi thought process.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    You're both eating at each other for projecting, and you're both projecting. Chillax.
    So... this is an argument in beta quadra. Got it.

    Failure is as interesting if not more interesting as success. But it's also because we're not good at imagining what success looks like, I think. So it's always this negative sublime, or this beautiful wreck, etc. And definitely, it's about struggle, not violence, although physical violence is a great metaphor for it, which is why you can talk about Milton's writing, for instance, as violent, and really that's the best way to describe it. Or in the Bible where it says "the kingdom of heaven suffers violence and the violent bear it away by force," (clearly that's Bible for Betas) it's not literal violence, it's not like you're going to punch the kingdom of heaven, it's this thing, whatever it is, that is described by the violence metaphor. That this is actually very similar to what Jung is describing with Se, or at least, what we think of when we think of the "violent" or "volitional" aspect of Se.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    Kindly provide a real Socionics explanation instead of indirectly proving you can't comprehend a Te/Fi thought process.

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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    That's what I attribute it to unless better reasoning and awareness can be utilized otherwise. You all are doing a shitload job of comprehending my motives.

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    and where is the "reasoning" for them not being able to understand an "Fi/Te thought process"? in your dissatisfaction at their responses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    THANK YOU. Now it's clear that Se is not directly related to physical aggression. It has to do with effectiveness. When you want something, it simply isn't always effective to be a blundering brute. Perhaps this sort of thing was confused with persistence. But there is a lot more to persistence of will and a singularity of goal than pounding your opponent with your funny little fucking stone fist. And you're right, to value something you have to know the feel of it's absence. Without the disparity, without the distinction, the presence of it is meaningless. So you set a goal, and break yourself against it, and your shin splints, your pain, the way he lay among his denim blankets, groaning in pain, that paid off, those weak legs gradually become thick bones, and now he squints his eyes in the sun, and runs, like an animal, calves tensing. It's beautiful. But I think it's easier to attribute willpower to that. It's less easy to put your finger on the goal when your brain bleeds little ribbons of blood and the wounds don't close. And with so much struggling, you reach what you had looked for..and it isn't there. Your goal is gone. Well guess what. It's not a 1 + 1 equation. Now the struggling changed you. And it's something you've got to live with.
    Beautifully written.
    Easy Day

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    and where is the "reasoning" for them not being able to understand an "Fi/Te thought process"? in your dissatisfaction at their responses.
    No, I'm not saying that I'm utilizing reasoning myself that trumps anyone's. I wasn't saying that that phrase you quoted or that my dissatisfaction IS my reasoning. It's not. It isn't reasoning. It's defending my self understanding because it's necessitated because my motives are being misconstrued before any attempt to communicate without violating boundaries was made. And you can say all that wilted 4 bullshit that I'm employing, and work me into this hole where nothing I say makes any sense according to my own self concept, I don't understand myself, but everyone else does. Jesus. That's not how it works. I'm saying that I have my own sometimes quite detailed and sometimes very grasping at subjective impressions understanding of Socionics as cognitive processes and theoretical explanations and gestalt impressions. And sometimes I suck at communicating them but sometimes I don't. And the times I have tried and concentrated very hard to communicate things to the best of my ability, these stupid little paragraphs and pages, they've remained isolated in stupid fragments strewn around this forum and in pms and aim and stickam and shit where no overall understanding was ever facilitated. I don't have a comprehensive page that I can point to that neatly illustrates my understand of Socionics. Attempts to explain things more fully would only lead to being ignored, passed over, made fun of, attacked, or re-interpreted in a light that is alien to my self perception. The fundemental key to myself is not that my emotional self perception is volatile, crazy, and disorted. I dislike saying "projection", sometimes it seems like a copout, but right now it seems very reasonable to say.

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    wtf

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    I can buy ESFp for you, Dolphin. You're kind of airy with that jekyll and hyde energy like Airborne (ESFj).

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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    wtf
    seriously

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    even when Se egos are physically aggressive, they retain tactical composure. the boundaries that Se gauges are set, regardless; enhancing focus on one or more doesn't cause clumsiness. this is the distinction to make between them and other types -- specifically, xSEs, who tend to blunder over boundaries in attempts to affect and further control activity in the environment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heavy View Post
    I can buy ESFp for you, Dolphin. You're kind of airy with that jekyll and hyde energy like Airborne (ESFj).
    LOL@ Airborne ESFJ

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