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Thread: Gangs of New York historical film

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    Default Gangs of New York historical film

    One of my favorite films, it has the feel of a Delta depiction Beta events, it's all about anti-romanticizing violence.

    "Amsterdam" Vallon - SLE
    Bill the Butcher - EIE
    Jenny Everdean - IEI
    Priest Vallon (Liam Neeson) - LSI
    Boss Tweed - Gamma, SEE maybe? (this portrayal, not necessarily the real guy)
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    How is this a delta depiction of Beta events?

    You think the director is delta?

    Cause if not, then I just think the qualifier "A delta depiction" is unnecessary simply because betas do romanticize violence (for the most part) that's not something that others quadras just think that betas do. I can't remember the last time I haven't day dreamed about inflicting pain on stupid people, or people who want what I have. It's not about hurting them either, it's about making them submit. Maybe not mentally, but physically and over coming them in one area is good enough for me.

    Don't get me wrong, I often don't voice these feelings, and almost never act on them, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

    Plus like, UFC, and violent action movies. Their all about some one overcoming their obstacles, who the hell cares if it's through violence?

    Like that one stupid teacher we had that one time whose name I won't mention for the sheer sake of my user name being really easy to link back to me, god... If I didn't find her stupidity so humorous...

    DISCLAIMER: MY depiction of violence is mostly outwardly focused but it is also very likely that from a beta perspective it might be inwardly focused I.E. romanticizing death, and self infliction.
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    Those aren't bad typings, except for Priest Vallon who didn't have much screen time. Additionally I can see Bill as SLE or LSI. I did get an SEE vibe from Amerstdam Vallon, because he practically dedicated his entire life on getting revenge against Bill the Butcher for killing his father.

    I think Betas can and often do de-romanticize violence, so it may not just be a Delta portrayal. I think Bill the Butcher's character was too well-written, thought out and sympathetic (for all his evil) for a Delta portrayal to necessarily make more sense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JWC3 View Post
    How is this a delta depiction of Beta events?

    You think the director is delta?

    Cause if not, then I just think the qualifier "A delta depiction" is unnecessary simply because betas do romanticize violence (for the most part) that's not something that others quadras just think that betas do. I can't remember the last time I haven't day dreamed about inflicting pain on stupid people, or people who want what I have. It's not about hurting them either, it's about making them submit. Maybe not mentally, but physically and over coming them in one area is good enough for me.

    Don't get me wrong, I often don't voice these feelings, and almost never act on them, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

    Plus like, UFC, and violent action movies. Their all about some one overcoming their obstacles, who the hell cares if it's through violence?

    Like that one stupid teacher we had that one time whose name I won't mention for the sheer sake of my user name being really easy to link back to me, god... If I didn't find her stupidity so humorous...

    DISCLAIMER: MY depiction of violence is mostly outwardly focused but it is also very likely that from a beta perspective it might be inwardly focused I.E. romanticizing death, and self infliction.
    The reason I say "delta depiction" is because the movie seems to utterly frown upon what seems an endless circle of violence and revenge and the strong preying upon the weak, etc. The movie's theme is of violence begetting violence: that long-sought-after revenge didn't solve anything, the riots people threw because they didn't want to be drafted to die ended up getting them killed. The only way the characters were able to escape the circle of violence was to leave New York entirely.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stanprollyright View Post
    The reason I say "delta depiction" is because the movie seems to utterly frown upon what seems an endless circle of violence and revenge and the strong preying upon the weak, etc. The movie's theme is of violence begetting violence: that long-sought-after revenge didn't solve anything, the riots people threw because they didn't want to be drafted to die ended up getting them killed. The only way the characters were able to escape the circle of violence was to leave New York entirely.
    Touche, good sir. Point taken.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    Those aren't bad typings, except for Priest Vallon who didn't have much screen time. Additionally I can see Bill as SLE or LSI. I did get an SEE vibe from Amerstdam Vallon, because he practically dedicated his entire life on getting revenge against Bill the Butcher for killing his father.
    Priest Vallon seemed Se ego to me, at least, and he fits in with the beta archetype, and duality with Bill makes a lot of sense, since they had such great mutual respect despite being mortal enemies.

    I have Bill as EIE because his entire strategy for gaining and keeping his power was based on intimidation - he even has a line to that effect.

    Amsterdam could be SEE, but I wanted to keep the beta thing, and the concept of revenge is pretty Fe/Ti.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stanprollyright View Post
    the concept of revenge is pretty Fe/Ti.
    Other way around.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    Other way around.
    Not at all. It's all about putting your anger over your morals (two wrongs don't make a right), and neglecting what will actually benefit you to enforce your ideal of equality.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stanprollyright View Post
    Not at all. It's all about putting your anger over your morals (two wrongs don't make a right), and neglecting what will actually benefit you to enforce your ideal of equality.
    Fi is about the bonds and relationships you have with others. An Fi ego lives for those bonds and takes it hard when a strong bond is broken. Fi is very much about what benefits you and your loved ones personally.

    Enforcing an impartial, unbiased system of morality, regardless of the natural bonds you might have is Ti. When I do it, it seems really cold and harsh to Fi valuers.

    Gammas with Fi + Se blocked, are the most likely to be persistent in their desire for revenge.
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    My personal views on revenge is that it's uncalled for, harsh, mean, vindictive, and poor show of your health as an individual.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    Fi is about the bonds and relationships you have with others. An Fi ego lives for those bonds and takes it hard when a strong bond is broken. Fi is very much about what benefits you and your loved ones personally.

    Enforcing an impartial, unbiased system of morality, regardless of the natural bonds you might have is Ti. When I do it, it seems really cold and harsh to Fi valuers.

    Gammas with Fi + Se blocked, are the most likely to be persistent in their desire for revenge.
    Just to clarify, it's possible for an Fi valuer to shun revenge and be pacifistic if those are the personal values he's accepted or was raised with. I haven't met too many Fi valuers though, so I don't know if it's their natural inclination. My SEE brother is certainly a vindictive little guy.
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    The Butcher was a classic LSI-Se 8w7. Priest Vallon was probably EIE-Ni. Amsterdam was some Beta, probably SLE-Ti but it's hard to put anything on him because DiCaprio is a 3w4 and as blank a slate as they come.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    FI DOES NOT HAVE A MONOPOLY ON RELATIONSHIPS

    JESUS FUCK
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    Fi is about the bonds and relationships you have with others. An Fi ego lives for those bonds and takes it hard when a strong bond is broken. Fi is very much about what benefits you and your loved ones personally.

    Enforcing an impartial, unbiased system of morality, regardless of the natural bonds you might have is Ti. When I do it, it seems really cold and harsh to Fi valuers.

    Gammas with Fi + Se blocked, are the most likely to be persistent in their desire for revenge.
    Revenge isn't solely driven by broken relationships, you can want revenge for any wrong that is done to you. And besides, revenge doesn't actually benefit anyone, it just makes you feel good (sometimes). And "an eye for an eye" is the sort of Ti system of morality that supports it.
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    Actually, enforcing morality without regard for relationships is called psychopathy.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    I fucking hate this bullshit notion of Fi having a monopoly on relationship values. Partiality is not a quadra value; it's a human sentiment. I do not have the same expectations of my friends that I do of other people.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by stanprollyright View Post
    One of my favorite films, it has the feel of a Delta depiction Beta events, it's all about anti-romanticizing violence.
    Actually it's just a massively Beta movie.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    Fi is about the bonds and relationships you have with others. An Fi ego lives for those bonds and takes it hard when a strong bond is broken. Fi is very much about what benefits you and your loved ones personally.

    Enforcing an impartial, unbiased system of morality, regardless of the natural bonds you might have is Ti. When I do it, it seems really cold and harsh to Fi valuers.

    Gammas with Fi + Se blocked, are the most likely to be persistent in their desire for revenge.
    eh that's a bit vague but I see where you're going with the rest of your comment.
    Bonds in Fi are more of a bi-product of the proximity towards others. I think this explains it rather well

    "The skill to feel the attitudes of people toward one another, relations to itself, skill to distinguish true feelings, understanding, whom loves or does not love, - feelings of sympathies or antipathies. The emotional connection between other people"

    I do agree that Gamma Fi has a tendency towards defending their Fi in a more "direct" sense, which is due to their Se valuing. I think Delta Fi revenge is more about protecting the Fi+Si than actual revenge against the offender, such as being distanced from the relationship either directly or passive-aggressively as a means of avoiding Se and maintaining Si. I can see how Ti/Fe's can see this as selfish, especially if removing Fe is in conjunction, like when giving someone the silent treatment
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    I fucking hate this bullshit notion of Fi having a monopoly on relationship values. Partiality is not a quadra value; it's a human sentiment. I do not have the same expectations of my friends that I do of other people.
    Fi activators like INTp's and ISTp's have similar values to us.

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    I'm not a fucking SLI. Fe valuers are not all social free-floaters and cheaters.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    The Butcher was a classic LSI-Se 8w7. Priest Vallon was probably EIE-Ni. Amsterdam was some Beta, probably SLE-Ti but it's hard to put anything on him because DiCaprio is a 3w4 and as blank a slate as they come.
    Bill's Fe was too strong and confident to be his DS IMO. Everything he did, he did for a crowd, everyone he killed he made an example of. He kept power by making people fear him. He had a flair for dramatic, he didn't just kill Monk McGinn, he murdered him one on one in front of a bunch of people with the guy's own club that he even notched. And there's the "I want you to get the man that hurt that poor rabbit" thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Actually it's just a massively Beta movie.
    Yeah, but it passes judgement on typical beta values. It's a classic beta underdog/revenge story. But instead of avenging his father, destroying corruption, and making the world a better place for his oppressed people, Amsterdam kills Bill in such a manner and time that it's just one death among thousands. The conflict and violence in this movie end up not making the world or the characters' lives any better. The theme of this movie is "an for an eye only makes the world blind," instead of the typical slogan "fight for what you believe in."

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    I fucking hate this bullshit notion of Fi having a monopoly on relationship values. Partiality is not a quadra value; it's a human sentiment. I do not have the same expectations of my friends that I do of other people.
    I believe that's a discussion for another day and another thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stanprollyright View Post
    Bill's Fe was too strong and confident to be his DS IMO.
    He certainly placed a lot of emphasis on it, which is typical of dual-seeking functions, actually.

    Everything he did, he did for a crowd,
    Fe seeking at it's finest. Ever notice how many performers, actors, etc. are Ti types?

    everyone he killed he made an example of. He kept power by making people fear him. He had a flair for dramatic, he didn't just kill Monk McGinn, he murdered him one on one in front of a bunch of people with the guy's own club that he even notched. And there's the "I want you to get the man that hurt that poor rabbit" thing.
    All of this is consistent with Fe dual-seeking. He didn't awe with displays of his own emotions, but rather with his power and prowess. He did not emotionally stimulate crowds with his own internal dramaticism or ability to inspire or manipulate, but with his concrete skills, with his prestige, with his dominance. That's using Se to receive Fe.

    Yeah, but it passes judgement on typical beta values.
    Actually it glorifies them rather magnificently. It also tells a moral, which would be hollow without the experience of the story; the subjective teaching value of direct experience is a pretty core Beta value.

    It's a classic beta underdog/revenge story. But instead of avenging his father, destroying corruption, and making the world a better place for his oppressed people, Amsterdam kills Bill in such a manner and time that it's just one death among thousands. The conflict and violence in this movie end up not making the world or the characters' lives any better. The theme of this movie is "an for an eye only makes the world blind," instead of the typical slogan "fight for what you believe in."
    And what makes you think Betas don't recognize the consequences of their actions? It's not a message oriented around Si, Fi, Ne, or Te, but rather one that is properly mindful of Se and Fe.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by stanprollyright View Post
    Revenge isn't solely driven by broken relationships, you can want revenge for any wrong that is done to you. And besides, revenge doesn't actually benefit anyone, it just makes you feel good (sometimes). And "an eye for an eye" is the sort of Ti system of morality that supports it.
    In this film, revenge was motivated by a broken relationship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Actually, enforcing morality without regard for relationships is called psychopathy.
    Nope. It's just an extreme of Ti ego (that I've often experienced).

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    I fucking hate this bullshit notion of Fi having a monopoly on relationship values. Partiality is not a quadra value; it's a human sentiment. I do not have the same expectations of my friends that I do of other people.
    I never implied that it wasn't. Why are you lumping together all the different types of biased attitudes?

    Devoting the entire purpose of your life to revenge a broken bond, shaping your whole existence around the desire to inflict pain on someone who wronged someone else, is in a totally different league from what you're calling partiality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marie84 View Post
    I do agree that Gamma Fi has a tendency towards defending their Fi in a more "direct" sense, which is due to their Se valuing. I think Delta Fi revenge is more about protecting the Fi+Si than actual revenge against the offender, such as being distanced from the relationship either directly or passive-aggressively as a means of avoiding Se and maintaining Si. I can see how Ti/Fe's can see this as selfish, especially if removing Fe is in conjunction, like when giving someone the silent treatment
    That makes sense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    He certainly placed a lot of emphasis on it, which is typical of dual-seeking functions, actually.

    Fe seeking at it's finest. Ever notice how many performers, actors, etc. are Ti types?

    All of this is consistent with Fe dual-seeking. He didn't awe with displays of his own emotions, but rather with his power and prowess. He did not emotionally stimulate crowds with his own internal dramaticism or ability to inspire or manipulate, but with his concrete skills, with his prestige, with his dominance. That's using Se to receive Fe.
    I see it the other way, using Fe to receive Se. He's simply too confident in it for it to be one of his weakest functions. He frequently stirred up crowds with words, using angry outbursts and shows of confidence, even when he was wounded. He's even got a line: "You know how I stayed alive this long? All these years? Fear. The spectacle of fearsome acts. Somebody steals from me, I cut off his hands. He offends me, I cut out his tongue. He rises against me, I cut off his head, stick it on a pike, raise it high up so all on the streets can see. That's what preserves the order of things. Fear." He often speaks in metaphors and emotionally colorful language "Each of the five points is a finger...", "You are neither cold nor hot. So because you are lukewarm, I will spew you out of my mouth...You tell young Vallon I'm gonna paint Paradise Square with his blood. Two coats. I'll festoon my bedchamber with his guts."

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Actually it glorifies them rather magnificently. It also tells a moral, which would be hollow without the experience of the story; the subjective teaching value of direct experience is a pretty core Beta value.
    Everybody values that. Like relationships.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    And what makes you think Betas don't recognize the consequences of their actions? It's not a message oriented around Si, Fi, Ne, or Te, but rather one that is properly mindful of Se and Fe.
    It's not about delta values, it's anti beta values.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stanprollyright View Post
    I see it the other way, using Fe to receive Se. He's simply too confident in it for it to be one of his weakest functions. He frequently stirred up crowds with words, using angry outbursts and shows of confidence, even when he was wounded. He's even got a line: "You know how I stayed alive this long? All these years? Fear. The spectacle of fearsome acts. Somebody steals from me, I cut off his hands. He offends me, I cut out his tongue. He rises against me, I cut off his head, stick it on a pike, raise it high up so all on the streets can see. That's what preserves the order of things. Fear." He often speaks in metaphors and emotionally colorful language "Each of the five points is a finger...", "You are neither cold nor hot. So because you are lukewarm, I will spew you out of my mouth...You tell young Vallon I'm gonna paint Paradise Square with his blood. Two coats. I'll festoon my bedchamber with his guts."
    LSIs are perfectly capable of this. EIEs, however, exhibit conscious emotional control, while the butcher is more emotionally restrained/casual, like an LSI.


    Everybody values that. Like relationships.
    Mmm, Betas in particular, though. Kind of like how everyone values comfort and happiness and hedonism to some extent, but it is the particular reign of Alpha quadra.



    It's not about delta values, it's anti beta values.
    No, it's just a healthy perspective on Beta values. Not all Betas want war and bloodshed and revenge.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Also his approaches to Fe are rather blunt, as per putting a guy's head on a pike in public view which is, more than anything, a raw display of power, as opposed to creating more subtle spectacles that are suggestive of power and the ability to control. Bill is blunt, fiery, attempts to be restrained but sort of can't help but speak his mind; this contrasted to EIEs who are the most intentional and controlled of all types in how they express themselves, their views, emotions, etc. Bil is raw, unbridled; EIEs are much more deliberate in their self-expression.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    My typings:

    Amsterdam: H-SLE-Ti 3w4 sx/sp
    Bill: D-LSI-Se 8w7 sx/so
    Priest Vallon: N-EIE-Ni 1w2 so/sx
    Tweed: D-IEE-Fi 3w2 so/sp
    Jenny: C-EIE-Fe 7w6 sx/sp
    Happy Jack: N-SEI-Fe 9w8 sp/so
    Monk: N-LIE-Te 8w9 sp/sx
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  28. #28
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Oh, and how could I forget:

    Hellcat Maggie: C-SLE-Se cp6w7 sx/sp (love that bitch)
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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