Undecided: Enneagram Type 5w4 or 1w9?

[Pa3s]

Hello,
While I'm quite confident that I am an ILI, I'm unsure about my E-type. I don't really believe there is a 100% correlation between the two systems, meaning that ILIs are definitely fives or similar propositions.

So I wanted to ask the Enneagramm experts among you what the most important differences between 5w4 and 1w9 are. While I was looking for my type I concetrated on these two because I think they are the most likely possibilities. At the first glance, the basic types 1 and 5 seem to be very different. But if you also consider the wings, they share some traits such as subdued emotions and general independence.

I first thought 5 would be definitely right, because one of the main issues is a detached lifestyle and clear loner tendencies. That's something I see in my life, too. The pursuit of knowledge seems also right. But on the other side, I'm also a perfectionist in many situations, I stick to the rules and I try to do everything the "right way". I often think quite practical, which is not necessarily typical for fives and change can be somewhat uncomfortable for me. 1w9 could explain my "rational" (in socionics terms) tendencies.

EDIT: Another point which leads me to 5w4 would be the artistic trait of the wing.

[Pa3s]

1. yes
2. it depends, but in general yes
3. Most time I take time to think about something is because I have a certain problem in mind. But I'm also thinking about abstract and theoretically problems which are not directly concerning myself.
4. hard to tell, I'd say it's 50/50
5. probably not
6. the latter

[Pa3s]

Thanks for your effort anake,
the downside of these questions is that the result is too predictable as you said. I guess I'll think about this and might write again.

[electric sheep]

looking at your avatar, I'd say not 1w9. A preoccupation with doing things the right way usually points to either 1 or 6. Why not 5w6 or 6w5?

[Pa3s]

Why not 5w6 or 6w5?

Because I found out that 5w4 is more likely than 5w6 while I was reading different descriptions. But as I said, 1w9 is an option which is correct for some other of my traits which can't be "explained" with 5w4.

This one for example, among others:

Average 5/4 is the prototype personality for research scientists. Analytical and detached from their emotions, but passionate about beauty and truth, they want to find the ultimate, simple explanation for everything. Their intellectual fiveness makes them likely to engage in long, professorial monologues, while their four-wing gives them a shy self-consciousness. Unlike the more depressive 4/5, they are likely to have a generally optimistic view, although they can get depressed if they become overwhelmed by the world's demands. 5/4s are usually less interested in social interactions than the more other-dependent 5/6.

Source

[Creepy-cinq]

From the Enneagram Institute:

E1
Key Motivations: Want to be right, to strive higher and improve everything, to be consistent with their ideals, to justify themselves, to be beyond criticism so as not to be condemned by anyone.

E5
Key Motivations: Want to possess knowledge, to understand the environment, to have everything figured out as a way of defending the self from threats from the environment.

The Enneagram suffers from the same problems as socionics and mbti - different interpretations. We could spend a week arguing who or what organization is the authoritative voice on the system. Anyways, I think the motivations above provides good contrasting impression without going into reams of texts and links.

It's interesting you ask about your Etype. I have nothing to substantiate. All I have is an impression from your post content and posting style, I get 1w9. This is something I've questioned for a while. I wouldn't be surprised if you eventually change your type to INTj.

[electric sheep]

Every source I've read gives 5w6 the role of typical research scientists.

Fives with a Four wing tend to be somewhat more emotionally centered than those with a Six wing and also tend to be more drawn to the arts and humanities, although this is hardly a rigid rule. Fives with a Four wing tend to be attuned to meaning and metaphor as much as to fact and function. Fives with a Six wing are often systematic thinkers who are drawn to more analytic disciplines than those with a Four wing. And they generally have an extra layer of detachment to their personality as compared to those with a Four wing. They are also more likely to be able to work within a system or to find a place for themselves in the world of business, academia and law than are the more impractical Four wingers.

the enneagram ...info from the underground

[electric sheep]

Plus there are fundamental differences between the head types (567) and gut types (891) that you may want to look into:

How the Enneagram Personality System Works

[Pa3s]

The Enneagram suffers from the same problems as socionics and mbti - different interpretations.

That's right. Too bad there is no "official" institution which keeps up the original interpretation and knowledge of the Enneagramm.

It's interesting you ask about your Etype. I have nothing to substantiate. All I have is an impression from your post content and posting style, I get 1w9. This is something I've questioned for a while. I wouldn't be surprised if you eventually change your type to INTj.

Thank you, that's very interesting! Some time ago, someone told me my writing style in forum posts would be clearly ISTJ (MBTI). I was unsure at the beginnig whether I'm ILI or LII, but then I came to the conclusion that Gamma values are definitely more accurate for me compared the Alpha values and that I have Fe-polr.

Every source I've read gives 5w6 the role of typical research scientists.

As cinq said, the source are sometimes contradicting. But from tests I know that my 6-ness wasn't very high. On the other side, there is one quite long test which always says I'm an 8. But that's very unlikely if not impossible.

[Airman]

One easier way could be you check whether you´re on the Motor/Gut triad of 1,9,8 or on the Mental triad of 5,6,7.

Types of the Motor triad often live more the present. Types of the Mental triad often think and plan a lot about the future. Thinking is for them a means of strategically solving antecipated problems. Types of the Motor/Gut center don´t have much of this ability to stay so mental for long, so they spend little time thinking of how to solve things with mental planning, instead they rely more on their own instincts to solve something, even if it´s planned.

For example my father is a 5w6 ILI ... he´ll always check in his head the best available routes for getting somewhere when he goes driving somewhere. On the other hand, I often find myself just doing the route I know is the best and sometimes getting caught in huge traffic and then improvising if I can to get out of there (I´m known to use sidewalks as turning-back points when I see there´s a huge traffic stopping ahead of me, if I can, I just go up the sidewalk and turn the car to the other road going back to where I was, but don´t do this, lol, you have to really look if there´s someone coming on the sidewalk before doing this otherwise you may kill someone).

I am also much faster than mental types with my reflexes, I have noticed, especially in driving. I got out of some accidents which my father and some 5s I know probably wouldn´t, just by being quick and like dominating completely the car. I also feel comfortable driving fast if I´m confident with my ability with the car, in spite of not knowing the road well. My father and most 5s I know drive real slow or when they drive fast, they get very nervous. My father went real nervous when in Authobahns, as he had to drive fast. I´d love to drive in an Autobahn and I´d probably be listening to electronic music very relaxed since the roads are so nice. I think this lack of fear is also more 1ish than 5ish, all mental types tend to have more fear in potentially life-threatening situations.

I have a strong guess about F-1 pilots: Senna was a 9, Schumacher is a 1. Most of the best of them are from the Motor or Gut triad.

[Airman]

btw I think you´re really 5w4, because I can´t see an E1 which is not a Sensory. That would be a strange E1 at best, a disastrous E1 at worst lol.

[Creepy-male]

The problem with discerning a 5 to 1 comes down to the fact they are both objective and logical types. They belong to the same Harmonic Group.
The Harmonic Groups

The big difference is Type 5's are thinking types from the Head Triad while Type 1's are instinctual types from the Gut Triad. One's need to be decisive and feel they are doing the correct thing from an objective standard, this standard comes from an instinctual source, most thinking a one will do serves to expand upon what they already understand through instinct. Thus the typical one gets more rigid and certain of their correctness upon thinking. Five's on the other hand are much more likely to be skeptical and doubting, the more they think on something the less certain they may become on it, they try to look at things from different perspectives. Sometimes Fives will try to play the role of skeptic to other people's ideas to present them with something they've overlooked and try to show others they really understand things from multiple viewpoints. Basically one's think to build upon a foundation that was laid by quick decisive instinct and that makes them more certain after thinking. Five's think to see things from multiple perspectives and really understand it well and that makes them possibly less certain after thinking. One's value decisiveness and directness in other people. Five's will sometimes enjoy going down lines of thought they don't really believe necessary, but are curious to explore... like arguing the other side of the debate so to speak.

Here is a list of different behaviors typically associated to the types, try to use this to see the difference between the two, they are not at all the same when you look at these lists....

The 5

• Sometimes described as Eccentric or Visionary (likes seeing things from different perspectives)
• Efficient, Technical, Objective, Intellectual, Analytical
• Withdrawn into their heads
• Mind focused, sometimes out of touch with their bodies and emotions
• Knowledge is Power
• Sometimes comes across Argumentative and Intellectually Arrogant
• Fearful of becoming useless and incompetent

The 1

• Perfectionist
• Goal-Oriented-- Sets high standards
• Productive not Prolific (in a real world sense, not just living in their heads)
• Self-Controlled and at time Rigid
• Pragmatic
• Heavy Work Ethic, maybe described as a Workaholic
• Idealistic, Angry possibly, Has high Standards, seems hard-to-please

I'd suggest determining your main type before you move onto wings, tritypes, or instinctual stackings.

Here is an article from a website about their differences also.

Misidentifying Ones and Fives

Ones and Fives both correspond to Jungian thinking types–the One to the extroverted thinking type (PT, 381-82) and the Five to the introverted thinking type, or to what we suggest might better be termed the "subjective" thinking type (PT, 177-78). The main difference between them can be discerned from the fact that they are in two different Triads: Ones are an instinctive type and Fives are a thinking type. While Ones certainly do think, they are primarily people of action, and are only interested in ideas that lead to some practical result. Fives, however, are truly a mental type: they can ponder any proposition or idea and do not particularly care about its practical ramifications.

Contrary to popular notions, opinions and beliefs have their basis in the instincts, in the gut. When we assert a position ("This is absolutely the way it is!") the certainty of our view comes from our gut. If we are present enough to notice, we can feel this when we express a strong opinion. And indeed, Ones are people of strong convictions and opinions as befitting a type in the Instinctive (or Gut) Triad. Average to unhealthy Ones are entirely convinced of the rightness of their views, and respect people who hold similar strength in their convictions. They think as a way of buttressing their already established beliefs. Average to unhealthy Fives tend to get lost in a maze of uncertainty. They may develop elaborate theories or positions only to overturn them soon after. While less healthy Fives may assert provocative views, they are more interested in disturbing the certainty of others than in convincing others that they have the correct view. Unhealthy Fives may want to feel smarter than the other person, and even argue points that they do not personally agree with just to prove to themselves that they can mentally "run circles" around others. As they become less healthy, Ones become more rigid and fixed in their views about things: Fives become more uncertain, nihilistic, and afraid that they cannot arrive at any kind of meaning or truth.

Similarly, they differ most markedly in the One's emphasis on certainty and judgment and the Five's relative lack of certainty and difficulty with discernment. (While healthy Ones have excellent judgment, average Ones are merely judgmental–still, making judgments about the world around them is one of the principal ways in which their extroverted thinking manifests itself.) Judgment is not as centrally important to Fives. They want to understand how the world works on a theoretical level or create inner worlds of imagination that are interesting and amusing to them. Thus, Fives tend to be detached from the practical world and intensely involved with complex mental constructs. And while healthy Fives observe and interact with the real world around them, average Fives, as they become more deeply enthralled by their own cerebral landscapes, lose their capacity to make accurate assessments about the truth, significance, or accuracy of their ideas. They gradually care less about an idea's objective rightness than about how their ideas relate to other thoughts that arise in their minds. By contrast, Ones employ thinking so that they can relate more perfectly to the world: their focus is on making rules and procedures for the progress and improvement of themselves and their world. Average Ones are not as detached from the world, or as withdrawn as average Fives are: although they may be cool and impersonal, and somewhat overly reserved, Ones are keenly interested in applying their principles to daily life.

Thus, Ones and Fives are opposites in the way they judge and evaluate reality. Ones judge situations from idealistic standards based on what they think should be the case. Fives are constantly investigating and questioning assumptions, not to mention standards and principles. Ones are deductive, operating from principles to specific applications; Fives are inductive, operating from given data to form more sweeping theories. Both are philosophical, and love knowledge: Ones as a means of perfecting the world, Fives as a way of discovering more about the world. Ones tend to be teachers and moralists, not inventors and iconoclasts like Fives. The difference between these types can be seen by comparing George Bernard Shaw (a One) and Isaac Newton (a Five), Margaret Thatcher (a One) and Susan Sontag (a Five).

[Pa3s]

One easier way could be you check whether you´re on the Motor/Gut triad of 1,9,8 or on the Mental triad of 5,6,7.

Well, concerning this description I'm definitely member of the mental club. Referring to your example I have to say I don't really like driving. It's not that I'm extremely nervous (I was in the past when I learned to drive) or anything like that but I don't like to drive ways I don't know. I tend to check the route very carefully before as your father would.

I´m known to use sidewalks as turning-back points when I see there´s a huge traffic stopping ahead of me, if I can, I just go up the sidewalk and turn the car to the other road going back to where I was, but don´t do this, lol, you have to really look if there´s someone coming on the sidewalk before doing this otherwise you may kill someone.

Well, once I drove maybe 100 m on the sidewalk to overtake a slow road sweaper with a small motorcycle. No people were harmed, though.

btw I think you´re really 5w4, because I can´t see an E1 which is not a Sensory.

I know, another point for E5.

EDIT: @ HaveLucidDreamz: Thanks, that's great material.

[Creepy-male]

EDIT: @ HaveLucidDreamz: Thanks, that's great material.

np, another thing to mention is how the types look at their best and worst... I'll talk a little bit about their worst....

Both types due to their preoccupation with objectivity may come across as being obsessive-compulsive, but the 5 is more of a withdrawn reclusive fearful OCD, the 1 is more of a angry rigid perfectionist type-A OCD. The 5 is skeptical and overly analytical and fearful of every tiny detail. The 1 is angry, dogmatic, rigid, perfectionist because they are trying to do what is right.

5's at their worst

• Withdrawn, Reclusive (ex - Howard Hughes / John Nash)
• Nihilistic Depression, feeling life is meaningless/absurd (ex - Friedrich Neitzsche / Van Gogh)
• Argumentative, Arrogant, Intellectual, Skeptical
• Odd Beliefs, Eccentric

1's at their worst

• Inflexible, Rigid, Dogmatic, Black and White Moral Viewpoints
• Perfectionist, and Obsessive-Compulsive
• Judgmental, Critical, Reprimanding, Angry

[Pa3s]

Okay, if I consider my tendency to live in an "ivory tower", my detachment to social situations and my personality in general, it's probably more likely that I'm a five. I came to that conclusion after I read some more material from different pages. It's possible that I was more 1-ish when I was younger, though.

But which subtype? According to this page I was quite sure that my wing is 4 due to my artistic tendencies. But I'm not absolutely certain. Does anyone have some detailed information about this?

[FDG]

I don't want to be dogmatic, but I really think 1s cannot be perceiving types. Any other E-type could be perceiving, yet 1 seems basically impossible. So if you're sure of being an ILI, I'd say 5w4 is much more likely.

[Creepy-cinq]

That's right. Too bad there is no "official" institution which keeps up the original interpretation and knowledge of the Enneagramm

Well, the Enneagram Institute at least holds promise in that it attempts to validate its research. On the other hand, I find the E5 description from this institute a bit biased towards high intellectualism. You can easily gravitate towards this type if you think you are intelligent, hold a degree and feel detached and appear arrogant. I mean, the examples of people within this group - einstein the icon - suggests this is the hi IQ club. I think this detracts from the actual essence of what is meant to be an E5. I also think a fair number of E1s and E3s initially feel they are E5s.

Thank you, that's very interesting! Some time ago, someone told me my writing style in forum posts would be clearly ISTJ (MBTI). I was unsure at the beginnig whether I'm ILI or LII, but then I came to the conclusion that Gamma values are definitely more accurate for me compared the Alpha values and that I have Fe-polr.

I can relate to this. These were the two types I struggled with at first as well, however, I felt that I had more Alpha values in my case. But I feel confident I have Fe-polr.

I don't want to be dogmatic, but I really think 1s cannot be perceiving types. Any other E-type could be perceiving, yet 1 seems basically impossible. So if you're sure of being an ILI, I'd say 5w4 is much more likely.

I agree totally. I cannot see an ILI as a 1. If ILI is definite, E5 seems correct. If you think there is a chance you are IxTj or even ExTj, then E1.

Curiousity MegaDoomer - have you considered ENTj-Ni?

In any case, the bottom line is what is right for you. I've only provided 'impressions' unsubstantiated, which is not too terribly useful.

[Airman]

yes Doomer some E1 ILI would be a very weird person to say the least, probably very very rare combination.

FDG I believe 1s can be ISTP as well as ESTJ and ISTJ. Especially 1w9s.

1s can be quite impulsive if they´re sexual, like myself. Some people mistake me for an 8.

[Pa3s]

I don't want to be dogmatic, but I really think 1s cannot be perceiving types.

I agree totally. I cannot see an ILI as a 1. If ILI is definite, E5 seems correct. If you think there is a chance you are IxTj or even ExTj, then E1.

FDG I believe 1s can be ISTP as well as ESTJ and ISTJ. Especially 1w9s.

No problem at all, it's your opinion. I can understand if you can't link E1 and perceivers. But on the other side, wings can modify your E type. If you take a look at E9, it's definitely perceiving. I agree with Airborne about that, even if he believes E1 is always a sensor. :wink:

On the other hand, I find the E5 description from this institute a bit biased towards high intellectualism. You can easily gravitate towards this type if you think you are intelligent, hold a degree and feel detached and appear arrogant. I mean, the examples of people within this group - einstein the icon - suggests this is the hi IQ club. I think this detracts from the actual essence of what is meant to be an E5. I also think a fair number of E1s and E3s initially feel they are E5s.

That's true, it's also what I thought when I was doubting my E-type. The five is the intelligent stereotype and this fact doesn't appear that much in other descriptions. I also read that E1 can be very philosophical, too.

Curiousity MegaDoomer - have you considered ENTj-Ni?

I know, it doesn't sound that wrong, it's a gamma type, too. But I guess I can't be an extrovert. Of the four dichotomies I'm absolutely sure about E vs. I, quite sure about S vs. N and T vs. F, and least sure about j vs. p.

yes Doomer some E1 ILI would be a very weird person to say the least, probably very very rare combination.

I know, it doesn't really make sense.
At one time, I had to build a model house which I designed on my own for one of my courses. It was a sunday and I somehow wasn't aware it would take that long. I started maybe at 1 or 2 pm, continued work with almost no breaks. Then I realised I probably would have to hurry to get it done until tomorrow. I worked the whole night through and I was done at 6:15 am. At 6:45 am I left the house to get to school. My mom said something like "Well, if you're doing something, you're doing it right."

At school, our teacher (definitely NF type, probably INFj) realised that almost nobody had finished the house, yet. She said we could hand it in the next day, or take even longer without any drawbacks. Interestingly, I wasn't angry about that, because I knew, I finished it on time and that's was what I was supposed to do. If I hadn't it done on time, I would have felt guilty no matter if she gave us more time.

Or a other situation: When I was still in school, many of us sometimes skipped lessons, for example my best friend (probably ISTp). There were also subjects which were really stupid and pointless. But I preferred to stay. In the rare occasions I also left, I felt terribly guilty and couldn't enjoy my gained free time at all. (also -values I think)

I could probably add many examples, or others which clearly depict me as E5. It's not that I absolutely want to be a E1, I just wanted to show you situations which make me think about my true type. There also a possibility of E1 being more present "at work" (if you consider school = work) and E5 being my "personal/at home" type.

[Creepy-male]

I could probably add many examples, or others which clearly depict me as E5. It's not that I absolutely want to be a E1, I just wanted to show you situations which make me think about my true type. There also a possibility of E1 being more present "at work" (if you consider school = work) and E5 being my "personal/at home" type.

you may want to consider the presence of 1 or 5 in your tritype once you've decided on your main type.

FDG I believe 1s can be ISTP as well as ESTJ and ISTJ. Especially 1w9s.

1s can be quite impulsive if they´re sexual, like myself. Some people mistake me for an 8.

I think you could be an 8w9 ISTp, what makes you choose 1>8

On the other hand, I find the E5 description from this institute a bit biased towards high intellectualism. You can easily gravitate towards this type if you think you are intelligent, hold a degree and feel detached and appear arrogant. I mean, the examples of people within this group - einstein the icon - suggests this is the hi IQ club. I think this detracts from the actual essence of what is meant to be an E5. I also think a fair number of E1s and E3s initially feel they are E5s.

I agree on the surface it seems like that, but people like Tim Burton are also typed as E5, which honestly nothing about Tim Burton and Albert Einstein on the surface seems to compare. E5 doesn't automatically place someone into the realm of academia or intellectualism.

Also E6, E7, E3, E4, and E1 can all come across rather intelligent. E6, E1, and E3 in a typical academic sense... E7 in a more natural sense, like being clever.... and E4 in a kind of deep introspective humanities sense, good at analyzing poetry/literature, reading between the lines.

As far as intelligence and the enneagram, a persons type has more to do with the style of their intellectualism than it has to do with being intellectual or dumb.

[FDG]

At school, our teacher (definitely NF type, probably INFj) realised that almost nobody had finished the house, yet. She said we could hand it in the next day, or take even longer without any drawbacks. Interestingly, I wasn't angry about that, because I knew, I finished it on time and that's was what I was supposed to do. If I hadn't it done on time, I would have felt guilty no matter if she gave us more time.

Or a other situation: When I was still in school, many of us sometimes skipped lessons, for example my best friend (probably ISTp). There were also subjects which were really stupid and pointless. But I preferred to stay. In the rare occasions I also left, I felt terribly guilty and couldn't enjoy my gained free time at all. (also -values I think)

By the way, I've never skipped school either (except when I was ill, of course), yet I'm a 7 - which is supposedly one of the least coscentious types. I would be hesitant to link such specific episodes to a particular E-type, it might just result from upbringing, natural personal attitudes (which are only partially factored in E-type). Yet if you feel that 1 fits, it might be right. Both pertain to what is called "competency" harmonic triad, which seems to match your communication style.

[Pa3s]

I would be hesitant to link such specific episodes to a particular E-type

Of course, this was just a example. I also don't say other types can't be dutiful or have a strong conscience, that would be silly. Besides that, the behaviour I described wouldn't be extremely uncommon for fives. I've probably much more traits which indicate E5.

[Galen]

I'm still not convinced at all that you're INTp. I know this isn't the thread to be asking this, but what made you come to that conclusion?

[Pa3s]

I'm still not convinced at all that you're INTp. I know this isn't the thread to be asking this, but what made you come to that conclusion?

No problem. First, I was quite sure I am LII, I came from MBTI and explored socionics the first time. I thought "Oh, you can just take your type you got from MBTI." But that's wrong of course. Later I found this article which I found interesting. Now I knew there were many people who aren't sure if they are either LII or ILI. With the help of some others I found other characteristics which showed the difference between both types. Personally, I'm more - than -seeking, is very likely also my Polr, as I said. Then, Gamma values > Alpha values, especially . In many functions tests I did was one of the leading functions. I can't really imagine it would be a subdued function. Furthermore, is probably also more important for me than as a leading function.

I'm more confident now that I'm a E5. Probably 5w4, not absolutely sure about the wing, but it's still the most likely option.

[Galen]

No problem. First, I was quite sure I am LII, I came from MBTI and explored socionics the first time. I thought "Oh, you can just take your type you got from MBTI." But that's wrong of course. Later I found this article which I found interesting. Now I knew there were many people who aren't sure if they are either LII or ILI. With the help of some others I found other characteristics which showed the difference between both types. Personally, I'm more - than -seeking, is very likely also my Polr, as I said. Then, Gamma values > Alpha values, especially . In many functions tests I did was one of the leading functions. I can't really imagine it would be a subdued function. Furthermore, is probably also more important for me than as a leading function.

How do you define the IEs personally?

For what it's worth, I'm fairly sure you're alpha NT from the photos I saw of you. You remind me of a couple of my Ti-ENTp friends in that regard.

Also we don't have to continue this conversation here since it isn't enneagram-related. You can take this to PMs if you wish.

FDG I believe 1s can be ISTP as well as ESTJ and ISTJ. Especially 1w9s.

I believe I have a 1w9 ISTp teacher at the moment, so I'd believe it too.

[Aiss]

I think a lot of what you say in this thread would be better explained by rational subtype, if not rational type, probably Normalizing in DCNH. I kind of doubt you're ILI-Ni, especially in light of what you relate here - adherence to the rules, importance of doing things on time, etc. (I don't really see how not skipping classes would be related to Fi-valuing.) That you self-type as INTJ in MBTI and say you're least sure about rationality doesn't go well with irrational subtype of irrational type, either. I relate very strongly to irrationality myself, perhaps this being the reason I'm skeptical about your being the same type, subtype and enneatype, though of course not everything can be reduced to type signature. Anyway, here are some subtype's descriptions, assigned to DCNH: Provisional DCNH descriptions - Gamma quadra - Wikisocion (there are pages for other quadras as well).

[Pa3s]

I think a lot of what you say in this thread would be better explained by rational subtype, if not rational type, probably Normalizing in DCNH. I kind of doubt you're ILI-Ni, especially in light of what you relate here - adherence to the rules, importance of doing things on time, etc. (I don't really see how not skipping classes would be related to Fi-valuing.) That you self-type as INTJ in MBTI and say you're least sure about rationality doesn't go well with irrational subtype of irrational type, either.

Thanks for the link, I'll take a look at it. Referring to that "skipping classes" example I meant that breaking (personal) rules or principles will lead to remorse. Maybe I'm a bit wrong with my own definition of the functions, I'm currently working on it to improve my knowledge in this matter. It could also be just a bad example.

Sometimes, in tests and also in personal descriptions of my bahaviour I contradict myself. Of course, I try to avoid that, but sometimes I can't decide what's right. For instance, when anake asked "Do you believe there is an objective truth?" at the beginning of the thread, I didn't hesitate and typed "yes", but then after she explained "1>5, 5s would typically say everything is relative." I felt like: "Well, if you consider this I wouldn't be so sure."

Seriously, I can't identify much with MBTI anymore. Since I read about socionics and typed myself as ILI, I don't seem to find a definite answer who I am in the MBTI system. Many options seem partly right, but wrong in other points. Of course, this problem is also an issue in socionics, but it's still better in my opinion.

[Creepy-cinq]

I agree on the surface it seems like that, but people like Tim Burton are also typed as E5, which honestly nothing about Tim Burton and Albert Einstein on the surface seems to compare. E5 doesn't automatically place someone into the realm of academia or intellectualism.

Also E6, E7, E3, E4, and E1 can all come across rather intelligent. E6, E1, and E3 in a typical academic sense... E7 in a more natural sense, like being clever.... and E4 in a kind of deep introspective humanities sense, good at analyzing poetry/literature, reading between the lines.

As far as intelligence and the enneagram, a persons type has more to do with the style of their intellectualism than it has to do with being intellectual or dumb.

Well, I believe we are on the same page here. From my Enneagram wanderings, I've found several authors/researchers who tend to place too much too much stock on intellectualism. Michael Goldberg, in the book, The 9 Ways of Working, calls the E5, the Sage. His description has a heavy emphasis on this type being the Wise Man/Woman or Guru.

I'd like to say what E5s do is 'intellectualize' as a defense or coping mechanism, as they retreat into their heads to avoid feeling and doing. The could mean going deep into a field of study to hide away, to simply engaging in intellectualizations to create distance from ones feelings or environment. Many types engage in intellectualism for different reasons. An E5 may or may not engage in intellectual discussions for fear of appearing inadequate. They may hoard their knowledge and remain silent. You might not even know they are a sage in a field unless they open this up to you (E5s will vary according to stacking).

Some of my favorite descriptions of E5 are:

Fives - the enneagram ...info from the underground

And

Enneagram Type 5 - The Investigator

EDIT: I can't remember the source, but, there was mention of the E6 being more the Sage or Scholar type than the E5. I tend to agree.

[Skeptic]

Well, I believe we are on the same page here. From my Enneagram wanderings, I've found several authors/researchers who tend to place too much too much stock on intellectualism. Michael Goldberg, in the book, The 9 Ways of Working, calls the E5, the Sage. His description has a heavy emphasis on this type being the Wise Man/Woman or Guru.

I'd like to say what E5s do is 'intellectualize' as a defense or coping mechanism, as they retreat into their heads to avoid feeling and doing. The could mean going deep into a field of study to hide away, to simply engaging in intellectualizations to create distance from ones feelings or environment. Many types engage in intellectualism for different reasons. An E5 may or may not engage in intellectual discussions for fear of appearing inadequate. They may hoard their knowledge and remain silent. You might not even know they are a sage in a field unless they open this up to you (E5s will vary according to stacking).

Some of my favorite descriptions of E5 are:

Fives - the enneagram ...info from the underground

And

Enneagram Type 5 - The Investigator

EDIT: I can't remember the source, but, there was mention of the E6 being more the Sage or Scholar type than the E5. I tend to agree.

When required to socialize with those they find uninteresting (almost everyone, that is) Fives frequently find a way to slip out the side door when no one is looking.

lmfao
Yeah I really liked the first description; I've always been looking for a comprehensive and in depth 5 description but was never able to find it, thanks for posting them.

EDIT; Oh, in the first link there is a small very helpful section that deals specifically with the possible mistyping of 5s and other types. I feel like quoting it for the sake of this topic;

Possible Mistypes

Fives and Ones are easy to mistype as both are focused on competency and tend to detach from emotions under stress. Ones, however, are much more focused on action and are generally more comfortable taking on leadership roles than are most Fives. Ones are also generally more judgmental of what they perceive to be rule violations or moral lapses than are Fives who tend to adopt more of a "live and let live" attitude when it comes to the petty vices. Fives tend to be conflict avoidant. Ones, not so much.

[Creepy-male]

Well, I believe we are on the same page here

Mostly.... but.......

I'd like to say what E5s do is 'intellectualize' as a defense or coping mechanism, as they retreat into their heads to avoid feeling and doing.

This I feel is a little condescending. Intellectualize as a defense mechanism means to kind of explain away something your are psychologically not comfortable with a lot of hyper-intellectual rationality. It usually implies piling a lot pedantic scholarly nonsense to make a false thing appear credible.

I think your on the right track, but its not all there in my opinion.

Also the way you say "to avoid feeling and doing"... that is not at all why they retreat into their heads. The reason they do so is FEAR.... AHH FEAR, ANXIETY, DREAD, ANGST, DOOM, ETC... it's not to procrastinate from feeling emotion and doing things. The core of the five is like feeling a deep sense of anxiety/fear about the world around you and needing to have knowledge and competency and understanding to feel able to cope with the world. That's why they are power seeking personalities, they seek knowledge as power in order to cope with the world around them because they feel a certain fear or anxiety towards the world, they feel like without knowledge they'll be incompetent and life will rape them. Their objectivity and lack of connection with their bodies and emotions is merely a symptom of this. They spend so much time trying to become mentally competent, they forget about the other stuff. Sometimes they may even fear intense emotional experience and have a predisposition to try to be introspective and understand these feelings so as to have a better knowledge of that which they fear and thus be able to more competently handle their own emotions. To others it seems like they are talking about someone else's feelings than their own. Fives usually avoid doing because they feel incapable until they have a mental grasp of something, fives are typical to be a little awkward and self-conscious, standing back observing something rather than diving in, trying to discern the methods and principles first in order to make sense of it mentally before moving to use their bodies. At any rate, the detachment from their emotions and their bodies isn't a root principle but a symptom of their core. Which is this complex theme between, knowledge, power, mastery, fear of being incompetent/useless. Fives just want to feel the power of mental competency because it defeats the anxiety and fear that is part of their lesser nature. I can show you a lot of movies that have scenes that present this theme quite well imo.

At any rate you have the right general idea but you're considering what you see on the surface is what is inside the core of the 5. What you see on the surface is actually a manifestation of something more fundamental.

An E5 may or may not engage in intellectual discussions for fear of appearing inadequate.

Not really, most of the self-esteem in E5's ideas are placed on an internalized sense of competency rather than an external one. What E5's typically have is a sense mental territory, certain disciplines or subjects they feel they understand and are experts on, and they have no problem sharing their thoughts and ideas on these subjects. E5's on subjects outside of this sphere tend to show little interest one way or the other.

What makes an E5 feel inadaquette is when they are unable to achieve some goal (usually mental in nature) they have set their mind to, they place very little emphasis on what other people think.

EDIT: I can't remember the source, but, there was mention of the E6 being more the Sage or Scholar type than the E5. I tend to agree.

Hmmmm I don't know, E6 come in many different ways as do E5's... it all really depends on what you mean by "Sage/Scholar".... E6's are more likely to be mainstream academics and experts... E5's are more visionaries and avant garde intellectuals. 6w5 and 5w6 are very common types for academics, especially so/sp instinctual subtypes. Their are however plenty of high aspiring 3's in academic positions also.

[Creepy-cinq]

I think your on the right track, but its not all there in my opinion.

Well, I think this is a bit condescending. It sounds like we are about to engage in an intellectual pissing match.. LOL

Also the way you say "to avoid feeling and doing"... that is not at all why they retreat into their heads. The reason they do so is FEAR.... AHH FEAR, ANXIETY, DREAD, ANGST, DOOM, ETC... it's not to procrastinate from feeling emotion and doing things.

HLD, I think you reading things in my posts that are not there. I never said 5s do this because the procrastinate from feeling emotion and doing things. Re-read my post. I KNOW it's a bout FEAR and ANXIETY.

Look, I don't have time to go through your response, line by line right now. Suffice to say you are clearly misunderstanding me.

[Creepy-male]

Well, I think this is a bit condescending. It sounds like we are about to engage in an intellectual pissing match.. LOL

Just spreading the holiday cheer....

anyways, your taking this wrong... I did say in my opinion, who says my opinion is the gospel truth... I'm just being very clear about what I think about what you wrote.

HLD, I think you reading things in my posts that are not there. I never said 5s do this because the procrastinate from feeling emotion and doing things. Re-read my post. I KNOW it's a bout FEAR and ANXIETY.

That may be but what you said could have been misleading purely through the method of communication, rather than through your actual understanding.

You said.... "as they retreat in their heads to avoid actual feeling and doing"... implying the reason for their strong mental focus is avoidance of feelings and actions.... to me that makes the 5 sound like a computer processor and less like a human being, their needs to be some mention about their soulful/human qualities trying to make them sound like a person a character with a story, with passions and desires and fears, rather than making them sound like andriods. Which I'm not saying you purposefully were trying to do, but it came across that way imo. I think it's a common misconception.

[Aleksei]

1. yes
2. it depends, but in general yes
3. Most time I take time to think about something is because I have a certain problem in mind. But I'm also thinking about abstract and theoretically problems which are not directly concerning myself.
4. hard to tell, I'd say it's 50/50
5. probably not
6. the latter

You are a 5 (probably 5w6). Congratulations.

[Pa3s]

When required to socialize with those they find uninteresting (almost everyone, that is) Fives frequently find a way to slip out the side door when no one is looking.

lol, this is actually something I did in real life.

You are a 5 (probably 5w6). Congratulations.

Thank you. Even if there are traits which lead into the w6 direction, I still lean towards w4, because of my artistic ambitions and general individualism.

EDIT: However, one Enneagramm test which also had wings included classified me as 5w6. Does someone know a reliable E-test with wings?

[Aleksei]

Hmm.. if you like your independence you're a 5w4, yeah.

[Creepy-cinq]

anyways, your taking this wrong... I did say in my opinion, who says my opinion is the gospel truth... I'm just being very clear about what I think about what you wrote.

That may be but what you said could have been misleading purely through the method of communication, rather than through your actual understanding.

You said.... "as they retreat in their heads to avoid actual feeling and doing"... implying the reason for their strong mental focus is avoidance of feelings and actions.... to me that makes the 5 sound like a computer processor and less like a human being, their needs to be some mention about their soulful/human qualities trying to make them sound like a person a character with a story, with passions and desires and fears, rather than making them sound like andriods. Which I'm not saying you purposefully were trying to do, but it came across that way imo. I think it's a common misconception.

No HLD, I think if you would take the time to read the two links I provided, you would have appreciated my interpretation. Both descriptions clearly talk about emotional sensitivity. Ironically, the EI, at least a few years back (I've not gone back to see if the site provides fresh revisions) treats 5's more like androids, IMO.

The bottom line here, is that there are many interpretations. Anyone trying to find their E type is best to wade carefully through the weeds as not all interpretations are created equal. It takes more than just skimming through some descriptions from a random Enneagram site to fully understand where you best fit in. About 90% of the general population doesn't even know (or care) what Enneagram means. Of the 10% that might, the majority just skims through descriptions or answers a biased questionnaire. Very few really take the time to fully understand it and appreciate where interpretations may divert from the core essence of the system. So, take some care in studying the system to identify your type.

[Creepy-male]

No HLD

No HLD, Bad Dog! Lol.....

I think if you would take the time to read the two links I provided, you would have appreciated my interpretation. Both descriptions clearly talk about emotional sensitivity.

I don't have a problem with the links you gave, it was just the sentence I quoted that I had a minor issue with, which I figured it was well within my right to mention, regardless of whether that makes you feel warm and happy inside or not.

The bottom line here, is that there are many interpretations.

I'm sorry I don't look at it like that, type is something that supposed to represent something real and not some figurative idea in your own internal world. A 4 is a 4 whether I, you, Gilly, or anyone else talks about it. If a 4 were different for everyone, then their would be no reason to call it by the same name and pretend we are talking about the same thing. I don't think there is room for more than one interpretation... the system is laid out with it's principles (the e-type system) and you either find these principles as something real and observable in people, or you don't. If your talking about different principles then that is a different system, and in your case I only decided to nitpick a single sentence and argue a very fine point because it was not the system that I have known and studied... and I even told you.... I think you have the right general idea (i.e. I am just nitpicking).... and you get all defensive, like its really all that consequential that I decided to nitpick a single sentence of your description, like somehow I've just done the verbal equivalent of punch you in the face.... seriously relax, how do you ever expect to be on the same page with other people in your understanding of things if your not willingly to assert your mind and willingly to allow others to assert theirs?

About 90% of the general population doesn't even know (or care) what Enneagram means. Of the 10% that might, the majority just skims through descriptions or answers a biased questionnaire. Very few really take the time to fully understand it and appreciate where interpretations may divert from the core essence of the system. So, take some care in studying the system to identify your type.

Right now, I'm focused on this discussion and not what the rest of the world population is up to, so instead of inventing statistics, I'd appreciate it if you'd just tell me which percentile your in or why it's important for me to know this.

[Creepy-cinq]

Right now, I'm focused on this discussion and not what the rest of the world population is up to, so instead of inventing statistics, I'd appreciate it if you'd just tell me which percentile your in or why it's important for me to know this.

It's clear that you are not understanding my posts. You are reading far too much into them. In any case, the thread here is not to prove anything to you. The thread is about MegaDoomer trying to sort out his Etype. It looks like he's confident he's found it. So, there is nothing more to discuss, and I'll end my participation here.

[Creepy-male]

It's clear that you are not understanding my posts. You are reading far too much into them.

That's your take on it

The thread is about MegaDoomer trying to sort out his Etype. It looks like he's confident he's found it. So, there is nothing more to discuss, and I'll end my participation here.

Alright then

[Pa3s]

The thread is about MegaDoomer trying to sort out his Etype. It looks like he's confident he's found it. So, there is nothing more to discuss, and I'll end my participation here.

Alright then

Hey guys, relax! Thanks for your input. :wink: