Illusionary Relations with Age

[DividedsGhost]

Hi, I would like your perspective on the following. And I know I'm attempting to put a relationship into a strictly unpersonalized and logical explanation, but I think this can be explained from a Socionics perspective.

So I've noticed in an intimate relationship with an SLE-Ti and an SEI-Fe that the SLE has a strong use of Ne role but that the standard illusionary relationship (unless I don't understand what illusionary really means in this context, but let's assume I do until someone can illustrate why I might not) does not seem to be that evident. The only times they seem to conflict is when the SLE becomes fatigued. But even then it seems like age might be more of a factor here in use of the role function.

So it seems like the SLE has become somewhat proficient in Ne to the point that he comes across as a sort of in between SLE-ILE, but more SLE (he gets happiness from mowing his lawn and applying himself physically over Ne). But his Ne is also limited to Si matters (such as home decoration and improvement) that he shares with the SEI. The SEI however doesn't seem to use Ni nearly as much. But I have noticed that when the SLE uses Ne it is most often used in conjunction with the Si limiting function and when the SEI uses Ni it is most often used in conjunction with the Se limiting function.

Has anyone found illusionary relations to be a lot less evident when both people are say, above 40 years old? Although I guess you could say age and experience could ease any relationship, but I get the feeling that's mostly limited to particular relations, such as illusionary.

[Galen]

I feel like illusionary relationships are a lot better and more fulfilling than people often think, especially when subtype is taken into account. I've known a few INTps in my time, and I tend to like them on par with ISFps because of my Fi-sub emphasis, and I'm nowhere near 40 years old lol. The difference is in where the comfort comes from when talking illusionary vs semi-dual, either from a more intellectual standpoint in J-subs or a more animalistic instinctual drive in P-subs.

In your case, how does the ESTp "use Ne" or become "proficient in Ne"? I don't see why any ESTp would ever want to try to use Ne because their ego functions are going to be world's more natural to them. I'd figure the same to be true for any other type.

[Capitalist Pig]

Thanks for that, Galen. I feel better about my secret ISFp lust now.

[Galen]

No problem?

[DividedsGhost]

In your case, how does the ESTp "use Ne" or become "proficient in Ne"? I don't see why any ESTp would ever want to try to use Ne because their ego functions are going to be world's more natural to them. I'd figure the same to be true for any other type.

Oh, yes, you are right. It's still kind of a backup function from my perception. Basically they both got into business together to buy, remodel, and then sell houses. This was before the real-estate collapse. And because of this they have similar interests in design and home remodeling/repair and have worked together successfully on many things. They now live together. But it's interesting because they have bridged the gap from the basic theory to form a relationship somewhat between illusionary and duality.

You might have something with the subtypes. I've been wondering if it could be said that the creative subtypes have better use of their role and suggestive functions.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

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[Blaze]

Hi, I would like your perspective on the following. And I know I'm attempting to put a relationship into a strictly unpersonalized and logical explanation, but I think this can be explained from a Socionics perspective.

So I've noticed in an intimate relationship with an SLE-Ti and an SEI-Fe that the SLE has a strong use of Ne role but that the standard illusionary relationship (unless I don't understand what illusionary really means in this context, but let's assume I do until someone can illustrate why I might not) does not seem to be that evident. The only times they seem to conflict is when the SLE becomes fatigued. But even then it seems like age might be more of a factor here in use of the role function.

So it seems like the SLE has become somewhat proficient in Ne to the point that he comes across as a sort of in between SLE-ILE, but more SLE (he gets happiness from mowing his lawn and applying himself physically over Ne). But his Ne is also limited to Si matters (such as home decoration and improvement) that he shares with the SEI. The SEI however doesn't seem to use Ni nearly as much. But I have noticed that when the SLE uses Ne it is most often used in conjunction with the Si limiting function and when the SEI uses Ni it is most often used in conjunction with the Se limiting function.

Has anyone found illusionary relations to be a lot less evident when both people are say, above 40 years old? Although I guess you could say age and experience could ease any relationship, but I get the feeling that's mostly limited to particular relations, such as illusionary.

thanks for posting this topic divided!

it is a relation somewhere between illusion and duality, you are right. i am 46 years old and infpman is 51. we are in a four year long (so far) relationship. we have both become more proficient at our role functions, me a bit more than he, since i was married to an SLE for 15 years. i cannot equal an SLE when it comes to Se, but i can do a fairly decent job of it, and we have our intuition as a commonality. he can do some basic Si things, but it comes more as the giving of advice than it comes as actual hands on assistance.

i can do the Se a little better than he can do the Si, but he adjusts to me more than i adjust to him, so it balances out. we both know we can't completely meet each other's expectations in the sensing area and make this explicit.

the other thing that happens is that he has become more negatively charged when he is actually a positively charged person. this is where the ethical introvert adjusts. so the extravert turns on the role function; the introvert adjusts more.

we had a conversation the other day: what if we had met while we were young? we said we didn't think we would have made it. he said i would have gotten too bored. (he'd be right on this). but we both have had failed marriages and have had a chance to develop quite a bit and learn quite a bit, so this relation works pretty well. there are times where our dual seeking is hanging out there in an upsetting way....but this is the learning and spiritual growth that come from intimacy and knowing who the other person is and what they are capable of and where you are limited and child like and how can you become more of an adult in that area.

i'm madly in love with him.

[DividedsGhost]

To you self-type for a long type as ILE, Divided?

Hi, Pinocchio.

...

Cool, so you know what I was talking about. It must be an age thing then.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

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[DividedsGhost]

Come on, what's the problem?

Alright I guess I'll give you an explanation since you seem curious. I only act ILI when I'm under a lot of stress. I prefer and enjoy SEI/ILE communications more than the others. And I'm Fi PoLR...unfortunately. I didn't understand what that meant before and it's me..ehhh. So you still have LSI as your type. When are you going to change it back to ILE? When you feel enough people realize you're messing with them? You crack me up.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

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[DividedsGhost]

Would my answer be relevant in the topic with anything?

Was mine?

[Blaze]

Cool, so you know what I was talking about. It must be an age thing then.

well, i was hoping you would say a little more...like why it goes that way...or something. do you think it's age or the nature of illusionary?

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

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[xerx]

The important thing to get out of socionics relationships isn't that they're good or bad. Illusionary relationships can be either depending on the people involved; the salient point is that in illusionary relationships, people slowly get tired of each other and stop finding each other very interesting as the relationship progresses (although this can happen even before the relationship begins).

Illusionary (like any relationship) may seem exciting at first, but you eventually get tired of always having to use your creative function (which is a big energy expenditure). While probing their insights might be fascinating, especially because they have a radically different way of presenting information, your base function and their base function extinguish each other. Furthermore, what you really want is some of that dual-seeking function, which is the most likely reason for finding them uninteresting and preferring to go get a dual or semi-dual to interact with instead.

You may also feel as if you have to live up to your role function around them, which can cause embarrassment and annoyance.

You can still have a "good" fairly normal relationship with them after all this happens. You might even still be in love with your illusionary. None of that changes the underlying dynamics of the function interaction.

IMO, this relationship is best when partners don't interact too often. That way things are always fresh and there is always something to talk about. Also if you interact at a more abstract, intellectual level. For closer relationships, it's better if people find a person who can compliment their DS function in some way.

People should really step outside that black and white thinking of certain relationship = good, other relationship = bad, because it's not the most descriptive way to put it.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

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[Jarno]

Illusionary (like any relationship) may seem exciting at first, but you eventually get tired of always having to use your creative function (which is a big energy expenditure).

no it's tiring because the ignoring function is being called upon constantly.

And it's tiring in a literal way. So it's not tiring after a couple of months, no it's tiring after a couple of minuts. Energy draining is a better way to say it.

[Blaze]

The important thing to get out of socionics relationships isn't that they're good or bad. Illusionary relationships can be either depending on the people involved; the salient point is that in illusionary relationships, people slowly get tired of each other and stop finding each other very interesting as the relationship progresses (although this can happen even before the relationship begins).

Illusionary (like any relationship) may seem exciting at first, but you eventually get tired of always having to use your creative function (which is a big energy expenditure). While probing their insights might be fascinating, especially because they have a radically different way of presenting information, your base function and their base function extinguish each other. Furthermore, what you really want is some of that dual-seeking function, which is the most likely reason for finding them uninteresting and preferring to go get a dual or semi-dual to interact with instead.

You may also feel as if you have to live up to your role function around them, which can cause embarrassment and annoyance.

You can still have a "good" fairly normal relationship with them after all this happens. You might even still be in love with your illusionary. None of that changes the underlying dynamics of the function interaction.

IMO, this relationship is best when partners don't interact too often. That way things are always fresh and there is always something to talk about. Also if you interact at a more abstract, intellectual level. For closer relationships, it's better if people find a person who can compliment their DS function in some way.

People should really step outside that black and white thinking of certain relationship = good, other relationship = bad, because it's not the most descriptive way to put it.

this is just a re-hash, though, of what is already known, in a classical sense, about illusionary relations. in this thread we are talking about instances where this interpretation doesn't necessarily hold completely true, and about why that might be. we're taking a lifecourse/developmental perspective. are you aware of illusionary couples who are older than, say 40?

[Blaze]

Guys, in Irrationals, all this boils down to a simple fact, / types come back down to earth from Olympus with age, they will easier neglect their appearance, renouncing airs and high expectations in image. Also with age, / will find easier to explore other realms, so I'd say that the perception gap narrows down.
It appears to me that with age they become more sick and tired of interacting with people they can harder collaborate with.

yes i think you are on to something here. as i've gotten older, i've become more aware of how Ne can be irritating to others, irrelevant at times, or simply not grounded enough in reality. even though it's my leading function, i try to temper it...and the balancing act tends to move towards Se, since it's a conscious irrational function. basically i think i ride the Ti between the Ne and the Se, the Ti is like the center of a teeter-totter.

I personally became very tired of Delta Irrationals, types I used to have a lot of friends among, it feels like "oh no, not again", while I find much easier to interact with Betas than previously, people who I used to perceive too head-in-clouds. I can be easier courteous and flattering than previously, I also learned that some things are better not to be told, etc.

agree. i make good initial connections with IEE but it takes not very long for the Fi/Ti clash to commence. and i cannot meet the Fi expectations of SLI, which are clear and totally apparant. it's always the same: IEE does something for you, so you feel like you have to do something in return, so you wrack your brain to try to think of something and you come up with something but it wears you out. and you then realize that the only reason they do this is to establish relational influence, not because they like you. and then i feel annoyed that they made me do something that i don't really want to do, mostly for their own influence and benefit. the competition ripens, usually for attention and social territory and it takes a great deal of effort for each person to stay in their own territory without offending the other person, yet still being able to pursue their goals. argh.

with SLI, it's too easy for me to mess up the distance. they look around for an Fi type and you're out, plain and simple as that. for my part, they are insensitive and disrespectful of feelings and i am offended by this.

lastly, their values of working behind the scenes to influence things, an indirect and manipulative approach (in my view) offends my sense of fairness, transparency, and truth.

in some senses, it's easier for me to get along with the rational delta types on a day to day basis. i feel like i know where i stand with them, i know what they're going to say and do, and they are quite reliable. i may not always like what they say, and we may not always agree on issues of spontaneity, but overall, in a weird way, these relations are much more stable than IEE and SLI.

My experience - not only personal - tells me that people with age tend to get closer to the quadra they share Irrational values with, distancing themselves from the one they share Rational ones. Basically, for Rationals it becomes easier to pair with the Semi-Dual when older, but harder to pair with the Illusionary, while the other way around is easier for Irrationals (+ Illusionary and - Semi-Dual)

agree with bold....but aren't the values the other way around? like alpha irrationals pair with beta irrationals along the Ti/Fe realm, rational elements.

when i was younger i had more deltas in my life, the older i got, it seemed much easier to get along with betas than with deltas. noting at the same time though that your own quadra is really best, esp activity and dual, not so much mirror, which can feel like mini-supervision and lacks energy.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

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