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Thread: Typing People

  1. #1
    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    Default Typing People

    I posted briefly on this forum several months ago and kind of dropped out for awhile, though I've enjoyed reading through the topics every now and then. For some reason, Socionics holds a fascination with me, though I'm finding it difficult to understand it completely. I have a particularly hard time deciding who is what type. Based on all of my readings and ponderings, I'm fairly sure that I'm INFj (EII). Not everything matches perfectly, but it's the best place function- and type description-wise that I fit. If anybody has doubts, though, I'd be glad to hear them out.

    Anyway, I'm thinking that if I can get help typing some of the people I interact with regularly that it might help me type other people by myself. Here are some short descriptions of a few people.

    The first person (we'll call her “R”) is one of my closest friends. She's detail oriented and loves to have structure around her. As she puts it, give a direction and a goal and put down some solid guidelines and she'll take the project and work to make it happen. She doesn't care as much as I do about the “why” of something as long as she knows the “what” and “when” and such. I've also found her to be very accurate when analyzing people, their character, motives, and how to deal with them. She'll observe things that I completely miss. She is not a party animal and too much social interaction with too many people tires her. Like me, she likes calm, familiar surroundings. With her friends she can be bubbly and giggly, much more so than me.

    The second person (we'll call him “D”) is known by both R and me. She gets along with him pretty well; I don't as much. Whereas R is detail oriented, D is much more big picture. I fall somewhere in between. He says she has a calming effect on his thoughts. I'm not sure exactly how to describe D because I don't understand him very well. It's easier to tell my reactions to him than what he actually is. We have many of the same goals, but our approach seems to be different. Our backgrounds are very different, so that might be part of it. I particularly want to know his type.

    The third person is in authority over all three of us (we'll call him “A”). He's very easygoing and a self-acknowledged people pleaser. R finds him frustrating because of his lack of definition and follow-through; I find him easy to approach and open to my suggestions. He likes to come in, stir things up, tell us his visions for the group, disappear for awhile, then do it again. This used to frustrate me, too, till I decided that the best response was to smile and nod, affirm that his ideas were great, add the ideas to the list of things to implement, decide which ones were practical, and go from there. One thing that I appreciate about A is that though he and I can disagree on theory, we can usually compromise in practice. I think he's very wrong in quite a few areas, but we're both willing to compromise to reach our shared goals. D gets along with A, too.

    There are a couple of other people that I'd like help typing, but here are these three for starters.

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    R = estj (maybe entj)
    D = more info
    A = enp? enfp?

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    =)

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    R= ESFJ
    D= INTJ??? I agree we need more info.
    A= maybe ENFP
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    R: Probably ESFj, just possibly ESTj, not ENTj
    D: yes, more info, but I could guess INTj
    A: ENFp probably
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Maybe some of you have access to more information about these three types than what is presented here, but if that is not the case all of you base your conclusions on too little information. All we should say at this stage is that

    R is probably Sj
    D is probably N and
    A is probably Np.

    One of the reasons for not take anything more for granted is that we are not 100 % sure of Minde's type either. But maybe you know more than what is said here on that subject too.

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    Hey, guys! Thanks for the responses. I'm not sure exactly what type of information you're looking for as I describe these people, so I'll just keep spitting things out as they come to me.

    A little bit more about R: Whenever she makes something it's always practical and geared toward usability as opposed to aesthetics. Practicality before beauty. She does like symphonies, sunsets, and such, but I've noticed that it has to be stronger in intensity for her to notice it as something good. She's more likely to aspire to those things, though, than some other people. For example, recently she's been (gently) pushing for a group of us to go hear Mozart.

    She avoids conflict and will back away rather than stand up for herself. She does not get angry with people, only hurt, I think, though she does not show it a lot. When I see her getting pushed down or away, for whatever reason, I get upset and angry at whoever is doing it. But when we talk about it, she'll tell me why they're doing it (hurt, insecurity, immaturity, selfishness, misunderstanding, etc.) and remind me to forgive them. She is incredibly mature for her age. She interacts best with people who are older or much younger than herself. She has deep insights into human nature and theology and will often surprise people who expect less from her because of her age (she's a senior in high school).

    When she and I are facing a problem, I can solve it (or part of it) in my head and she's the one who takes decisive action. I'll come up with the original solution and she'll point out things I've not noticed or put together. Or I'll find a theoretical problem and she'll solve it practically. An example of how we work together happened last night. She was driving us somewhere and we had stopped at a light. On the opposite side of the intersection, one of the cars flashed its brights. I knew that was a signal to somebody and fuzzily wondered what it meant and who it was for and if there was an interesting story behind it. I said, “Oh, look, they're flashing their brights” and R immediately reached over and turned her headlights on. I gave her information, she decided what it was about and what to do. On the other hand, she is very receptive to my suggestions and will follow my directions. She doesn't always understand where I'm coming from, but she trusts me.

    Okay, let's move on to D. I should perhaps at this point say that I can get along amicably with most people. We may not always agree, understand each other, or even prefer each other's company, but I can feel kindly toward just about everybody and generally receive neutral, if not friendly, vibes from them. I also can remain fairly calm. I feel strong emotions, but I can generally keep control of them. D is one of the few people who can get by those barriers of control and inspire me to firey emotions, particularly anger. Over the past few months, my verbal self-expression, in my journal and to my confidants, has been more negative than usual and the topic is usually D or related to something that we've both been doing or discussing.

    I should also say that usually I can figure people out fairly quickly, at least in terms of what they want and how I can respond to them so we get along. Depending on the individual and how often we interact, I can generally get to the point where I can predict their attitudes and reactions, especially in the emotional and relationship realm. I understand them and their desires. I can't predict D. Sometimes I think I've figured something out, then he'll go and do something that breaks the pattern.

    He's a social butterfly. It's hard for him to be alone, I think. He's always got to be doing something with people, whether it's playing, talking on the phone, emailing (while at work), or whatever. I think, also, that people tend to follow and be attracted by him. I'll watch him in a room with lots of people. He'll go and sit down, sometimes by himself but usually with another person, and people (especially certain ones) will end up kind of gathered around him. He and I tried to have a (playful) debate once, and we couldn't finish because people kept jumping in and interrupting to question him.

    I think he also craves emotional attention. I've noticed that whenever things begin to calm down, something always comes up (especially with girls) where he thinks/feels he has to/wants to fix the relationship. It doesn't even have to be between him and another person. One time he emailed me and told me that he noticed some “tension” between me and another girl. Now, she and I often have a hard time understanding each other, but up till then I'd trusted my sense that despite that we still liked each other. His comment scared me (since I don't always trust myself to notice things), so I went and talked with the girl (we can call her “RJ” for future reference). She confirmed that though we didn't always get each other, she had no hard feelings and understood that I felt friendly toward her, too. D's unnecessary interference annoyed me and I still don't completely understand what he thought he was doing.

    He's very good at noticing the physical characteristics of things and putting those observations together in his head, even better than R. I think that's because he likes theories and approaching things more abstractly. Some of his comments that come from his observations sting me, though they're not meant to.

    He is very relaxed when it comes to planning and doing things. Generally thorough, but relaxed. That annoys me sometimes, because I like to have the loose ends taken care of and the destinations to be a little bit more sure and secure.

    There is one issue that has really pushed my buttons and made me genuinely angry, and that's how he views people in terms of their capabilities. A few months ago, RJ commented on how R knew more about our college group than she did, even though R wasn't in college yet. R didn't want to make a fuss, so she lessened her involvement with the group. D and A both went along with it, even though they claimed that R's age didn't mean that much to them. However, they did say that they thought her best place was with her “peers.” I consider R to be an amazing asset to our group, so I went to the offending parties and asked them to explain themselves. I only talked with RJ a little since I already know why she said what she did. Suffice it to say she's a little immature, sensitive, and often struggles with self-worth. A didn't back down on his concept of “peers” but he was immediately willing to offer the olive branch and formally invite R to continue an even more meaningful role in the group. D, on the other hand, could not explain himself as well as A, didn't have RJ's reasons, and refused to concede any of my points (though I think he would have originally agreed with many of them). Strangely enough, D and R still get along well. D says I overreacted, and maybe I did, though it doesn't bother me any less.

    Another thing is, sometimes he takes me more seriously than I thought he did. His pride and I'm-always-right attitude (though he denies it) often puts me off from talking with him about things. I've decided that I can't debate him because he doesn't easily concede points. In fact, if it looks like he's loosing he'll go in logical circles or simply hang onto something like a bulldog and refuse to admit that I'm right. But then he'll surprise me by taking something that I say and take it to people that he looks up to (like A) and ask them what they think about it. Of course, he doesn't tells me that he's doing this; I usually hear about his efforts second hand.

    His past is somewhat violent. His first fight was in first grade over a girl. He ended up in jail for several years, and only checked his violent tendencies after giving his life to Christ. He hasn't been in any physical altercations during the time that I've known him, though.

    I need to get back to school work now, so maybe I'll write more about A later. Hopefully this has been informative.

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    R - ESFj, maybe ESTj
    D - ENTp, maybe ISTp
    A - ENFp, maybe ENTp

    Tell me about the differences between R and A behaviorally, and how they get along.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    R - I still think ESFj
    D - ENTp perhaps
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    Let's see, the differences between R and A... They are actually similar in a lot of ways. They both are good listeners; they both tend to offer positive suggestions, as opposed to negative criticisms; neither seek out conflict; they both are forgiving; both are careless in their written grammar and spelling. And I, personally, find them both very approachable.

    They're different in their reading habits. A likes to read about ideas for doing stuff better. He's always saying to me, “Look what I found about such-and-such! Read it – aren't they good ideas?” R likes to read stories about people and she likes to moralize the situations and delve into their theological meanings.

    When talking about stuff, A likes to talk about the overarching issues. He's good at making connections between larger ideas.

    R loves to get detailed and specific. Her favorite teacher is one who will slowly, methodically cover everything, every possible little point.

    A is aesthetically oriented. He likes to incorporate the arts into his youth program. For example, he's asked several artistic people in our church to paint murals on the youth room walls and he loves using Photoshop to make slides for Powerpoint.

    As I've said before, R is more practical in her approach to projects. Her idea of dressing something up is to make the bullets (in a list of items) into flowers and maybe add some clipart.

    A is much more willing to use the internet to find information and ideas. To R, the web is unfamiliar, foreign, and she doesn't feel inclined to explore it.

    A leans toward exploring ideas; R leans more toward exploring experiences. For example, she's one of the more well-traveled people that I know (she spent a month in Australia last year, for example) and she's gone bungee jumping (and loved it).

    R finds A frustrating because he'll offer ideas without following through on them. In contrast, I think A appreciates R for her willingness and ability to responsibly get stuff done. I'm not sure if A knows about R's frustrations. He hasn't indicated as such, but that doesn't mean he doesn't see it.

    Oh, I just thought of another difference. A isn't the best communicator in that he doesn't initiate the spread of information about what's going on. I've found that I have to approach him, give him my info and specifically ask for what I want to know. R, in contrast, will usually double-check with people to make sure they're on the same page. I generally know where she is with regards to something and what she's going to do.

    Since I would like to learn how to type people by myself, can you all tell me how you're reaching your conclusions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    Since I would like to learn how to type people by myself, can you all tell me how you're reaching your conclusions?
    Right, here's my take on it.

    R:

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    The first person (we'll call her “R”) is one of my closest friends. She's detail oriented and loves to have structure around her. As she puts it, give a direction and a goal and put down some solid guidelines and she'll take the project and work to make it happen. She doesn't care as much as I do about the “why” of something as long as she knows the “what” and “when” and such.
    All of that suggests a sensor rather than intuitive, and to make a project happen suggests , so that's why some said ESTj, I think. ENTjs would not say "give me a direction and a goal".

    However:

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    I've also found her to be very accurate when analyzing people, their character, motives, and how to deal with them. She'll observe things that I completely miss. She is not a party animal and too much social interaction with too many people tires her. Like me, she likes calm, familiar surroundings. With her friends she can be bubbly and giggly, much more so than me.
    The above suggests a feeler, more especifically than , especially if you are INFj yourself (and therefore ). The "not a party anymal" etc is a bit ambiguous but altogether she seems ESFj so far, but not very clearly.

    But then you said - -

    A little bit more about R: Whenever she makes something it's always practical and geared toward usability as opposed to aesthetics. Practicality before beauty
    .

    This would speak a little bit against ESFj and for ESTj, but not that much, ESFjs can also be practical.

    She does like symphonies, sunsets, and such, but I've noticed that it has to be stronger in intensity for her to notice it as something good. She's more likely to aspire to those things, though, than some other people. For example, recently she's been (gently) pushing for a group of us to go hear Mozart.
    The way you phrase it suggests as hidden agenda rather than as a strong function, which fits both ESFj and ESTj.

    She avoids conflict and will back away rather than stand up for herself. She does not get angry with people, only hurt, I think, though she does not show it a lot. When I see her getting pushed down or away, for whatever reason, I get upset and angry at whoever is doing it. But when we talk about it, she'll tell me why they're doing it (hurt, insecurity, immaturity, selfishness, misunderstanding, etc.) and remind me to forgive them. She is incredibly mature for her age. She interacts best with people who are older or much younger than herself. She has deep insights into human nature
    That tips the balance towards ESFj, clearly so IMO.

    When she and I are facing a problem, I can solve it (or part of it) in my head and she's the one who takes decisive action
    .

    I gave her information, she decided what it was about and what to do. On the other hand, she is very receptive to my suggestions and will follow my directions. She doesn't always understand where I'm coming from, but she trusts me.
    That doesn't sound at all like an ESTj-INFj interaction, an ESTj would not act as "information receiver" of an INFj. So ESFj; what you're doing is providing her with your strong and (relatively) more active . And you both have a relationship of Illusion rather than Duality.

    So ESFj fits best, in fact, even if you were not INFj.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    I think that I agree with everything in Expat's analysis of R. She seems clearly to be an SF type and is most likely an ESFj, since that is the type profile that emerges more and more from the information you give us about her. I just want to add that the small detail
    She does like symphonies, sunsets, and such, but I've noticed that it has to be stronger in intensity for her to notice it as something good.
    suggests Sp or Es and is argument against ISFj for example.

    I don't want to say anything definite about D and A yet. D could perhaps be an ENTp, as some of you have suggested, but I haven't ruled out other possibilities yet. One reason for that is that I can relate to some things you say about him, and to a certain extent also to your description of your own relation to him, which show similarities to a real life relation I have myself to an INFj. So I don't rule out completely the possibility that he might be an INTp.

    I don't know about A either, but when you describe the behaviours of your people, especially R and A remind me very much of a real life situation in a work place that I am familiar with. If it really is the exact same relation type of situation in both cases R would be an ESFj and A would be an ENTp.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    Since I would like to learn how to type people by myself, can you all tell me how you're reaching your conclusions?
    Right, here's my take on it.

    R:

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    The first person (we'll call her “R”) is one of my closest friends. She's detail oriented and loves to have structure around her. As she puts it, give a direction and a goal and put down some solid guidelines and she'll take the project and work to make it happen. She doesn't care as much as I do about the “why” of something as long as she knows the “what” and “when” and such.
    All of that suggests a sensor rather than intuitive, and to make a project happen suggests , so that's why some said ESTj, I think. ENTjs would not say "give me a direction and a goal".
    Absolutley not, at least if she described her friend correctly. It would be totally against the nature of Te to not care about the "why" question. This is the reason why I said ESFJ in my first post. In fact, Te feels a need to even explain the why to other people. My ESFJ sister, on the other hand, doesn't like it when I beat around the bush like that. Whenever I show her something, her response is, "What is this?", or something to that effect. Its like she doesn't have time to listen to the explaination, just wants it thrown out there.

    And the other people are described too much in MBTI terms.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    Talk about differences between D and A.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    @ Expat: Thank you! That's the type of explanation I'm looking for.

    What I mean by R not being a party animal is that she prefers to interact with smaller groups of people (not much more than 5) and she opens up best when its people she knows well and trusts. She also doesn't like a lot of attention by a lot of people. That contradicts some of what I've read about ESFjs, especially the part about not liking big groups of people. But, then, I could have misinterpreted what I read.

    I'm a little confused with this, too: if she's ESFj and I'm INFj, then that means our relationship is Illusionary. From what I've read, that's one of the more difficult relationships with plenty of misunderstandings. Sometimes I feel I need a break from her and sometimes she rambles on about stuff that I don't particularly care about (usually it's the details of a situation that we've already covered in general terms), but I trust her to love me, back me up, empathize, and help me out when I need it.

    If she's really ESFj, then her suggestive function should be related to how to organize things and her PoLR should be related to her sense of when things happen, correct? She's usually early to things – is this an attempt to compensate for that weakness?


    Alrighty, let me describe some interaction between D, A, and myself, the three of us together. D was proposing and planning on having our group go out and socialize with homeless and other “down and out” people on the streets. Mostly just talking with and listening to them, but also giving them a lunch and some info on where they could go if they wanted help (like the local Rescue Mission). I had mentioned before that I'd rather do something else, but he didn't ask why. By the way he was talking, I knew that he had jumped to the conclusions that because I am reserved around strangers and that I've had a “sheltered” life that was just being immature and close-minded. He's only used those types of words a couple of times, but the same general attitude toward me has surfaced more often than I can easily put up with. He's four years older than me and has “experienced a lot more of life” than I have, so evidently that gives him the final word in any matters of dispute. I should add at this point that A is older than D.

    Now, I approved of the general idea and goal – the idea is to love people, not preach to them. But the way he was planning it and talking about it, combined with the current make-up and attitudes of the group members as well as other various logistic variables (weather, local, etc.) I wasn't feeling too comfortable with it. However, I was having a hard time explaining myself to him. It seemed that everything I tried to say was filtered through his pre-set perception of me. Which just made me more frustrated and less coherent.

    At this point, A came into the room and asked what we were talking about. D told him what he was planning. (The funny thing is, though D and A have been sharing a house and evidently talk to each other quite a bit, they often don't know what the other is planning. I guess they like to discuss ideas and goals more than their practical applications.) A indicated that he wanted my opinion and I stumbled something out about it being a good idea but not right now. He said, “Yeah, I don't think it's a good idea, either.” D's body language changed immediately (to more submissive), looked a little surprised and asked why A thought that way. A said that the goal was good, but he didn't think the group was ready and that it might be a good idea to work people up to it by giving them examples and having the less-gregarious people practice some. D looked disappointed, but he didn't argue. I felt bad about that – that's partly the reason I didn't fight against the idea as hard as I could have – he was so enthusiastic and I didn't want to dampen that. It seems I failed. He's been less enthusastic since then about planning his own ideas.

    I'm going to be with the whole group a couple of times today and tomorrow. Is there anything I should be looking for in people's behaviors to help in typing them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    And the other people are described too much in MBTI terms.
    What do you mean? Should I be describing them differently?

    By the way, anybody having any questions or doubts about my type? I don't mind discussing that, too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    I'm a little confused with this, too: if she's ESFj and I'm INFj, then that means our relationship is Illusionary. From what I've read, that's one of the more difficult relationships with plenty of misunderstandings. Sometimes I feel I need a break from her and sometimes she rambles on about stuff that I don't particularly care about (usually it's the details of a situation that we've already covered in general terms), but I trust her to love me, back me up, empathize, and help me out when I need it.
    I'll comment on the rest later. Illusion is actually a rather good relationship and what you just described is consistent with it. One of my most trusted friends is my Illusionary, an ISTj - - we get along and support each other. I just have to watch not to make comments that will hurt his PoLR, and he, my one.

    If we wanted to, we could annoy each other horribly. But we don't. That's the only problem with Illusion -- certain subjects are avoided on purpose.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by gilligan87
    Talk about differences between D and A.
    Is this a comment or a command?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    Quote Originally Posted by gilligan87
    Talk about differences between D and A.
    Is this a comment or a command?
    It means I'd like you to.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    And the other people are described too much in MBTI terms.
    What do you mean? Should I be describing them differently?
    You say a lot of things like, "This person is detail-oriented... this guys a big picture thinker...etc...".
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    You say a lot of things like, "This person is detail-oriented... this guys a big picture thinker...etc...".
    Rocky has a point. It is better to describe only what you see and avoid drawing general conclusions like "this guy is a big picture thinker", because otherwise we have to rely on that you have made the correct interpretations of what you can observe. Try to be as concrete as possible. In exactly what way is he a big picture thinker? Can you give us any concrete examples of situations in which you think that this "picture thinking" reveals itself? And so on.

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    Yeah, I agree with Rocky and Phaedrus. Just give concrete examples of behavior, without interpretation.

    Having said, for the moment I say that the more details you give about R, the more she seems ESFj.

    If she's really ESFj, then her suggestive function should be related to how to organize things and her PoLR should be related to her sense of when things happen, correct? She's usually early to things – is this an attempt to compensate for that weakness?
    Her suggestive function, , is more about understanding how facts and events fit together in an analytical way.

    Yes her PoLR makes her insecure about how much time she needs for doing something and it could make her always late, or she could be always early in an attempt to compensate.

    D still seems a likely ENTp and A, ENFp.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    @ gilligan87: Oh, ok. When I first read it I thought you meant, "Look, there are differences between them." But then I wasn't sure. Because I hadn't really talked about their differences yet. Good thing I asked.

    @ Rocky, Phaedrus, and Expat: Sorry! I'll try to give more examples and less interpretation. Would concrete examples be like the stories I've told, where I say what I observed in certain situations?

    The problem is, I'm not exactly sure what you're looking for, so I'm not sure what to give you. Generally, my automatic response is to let my observations subconsciously form into generalizations that I'm consciously aware of. It's hard to do it backwards where I consciously observe and supress the conclusions. So that's why I asked earlier if there are things I should be looking for.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
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    Try to describe D and A more in terms of your description of R, even though for D you already gave some good information.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    At the moment I'm swamped with schoolwork, but I thought I'd share some of R's perspective. I asked her to describe their personalities as she saw them. She knows nothing about socionics or most other personality theories, so you won't have to worry about her misusing terms or phrases. Reading through this, I noticed that her observations match up with mine, but her reactions differ in many ways.

    So, without further ado, this is A and D according to R (edited for spelling, punctuation, and privacy):


    A - Well, when I first met him I was a little wary of him, not quite sure what he'd be like. I respect him in that he does have a real passion for youth and he does have a lot of good ideas. He drives me nuts because he has no order or, it seems to me, a plan. I see him as very honest and straight forward. He is very open and willing to listen, when he can. It takes him time to do things, [and] we have to give a little grace when he's late or does do things last minute, because it takes him longer to work through things. He doesn't always give clear directions or define much of anything. He communicates, in that he can talk to anyone, though practical communication isn't his strong point. He does need to work on accurately and timely transferring news to and from people and groups of people. I think he has a difficult time getting the things that are in his head out into daily life.

    Sometimes I wish he could better understand his high schoolers and better tailor his teaching to them. For instance, I believe he tries to take them too deep and teaches them in a way that isn't engaging enough or practical enough for them. I do like his walk through the Old Testament, but I think it isn't benefiting the kids that he is teaching, it doesn't hit them where they are at. He is good at making me think about things on a deeper level and in a different way, he challenges me to look outside and see beyond what I am normally accustomed.

    I see A as a very unique, laid back, generous individual. He hasn't quite grown up yet. He has a lot of areas he needs to develop in to become an effective youth pastor, but he has a lot of good qualities that I don't think people see all the time. He is fairly outgoing, yet I see a certain amount of reservedness in him. I don't see him very serious about much, even when we are doing serious things. I don't see him as a serious person. Yet, he isn't the life of the party either... he sorter finds himself at a nice balance. He isn't good with defined boundaries and strict rules. He doesn't like tradition, or at least he doesn't abide by it that much. He is very curious and experimental. He likes energy and attracts those that are like him.

    I honestly don't feel like I know him, yet I'm never afraid to talk to him. He comes across as a sort of mild guy. He seems younger than he is. I think he is the sort of guy that measures [the success of the group] in numbers, or at least desires greater numbers. I believe he focuses on image as well. That is something that isn't of utmost importance, yet it is something he is cautious of. He has ideas, yet he doesn't have a practical understanding of how to develop them and bring them into being.

    Hmm... that's all I can figure about him.... I really don't think I know him though.

    D - He is our typical social butterfly. He loves to be the center of attention. Very laid back (unless it has something to do with his own personal work). Casual... appearance isn't important unless it is really something incredible. He's not opposed to looking good, it's just not something that is entirely important. As he said to me once, he wears baggy cloths to be modest. For I do confess, he has a very nice figure and he does look pretty good with out a shirt on. Though when he said it to me it took me by surprise that he thought of things in that manner.

    He's an utter flirt with girls. I think it's 'cause he doesn't quite know how to be friendly with out being too friendly. I think he likes the attention and he likes girls. What can I say? He's a guy... girls are pretty and smell good... and he's very social. Maybe too social for his own good... but it's D! :-)

    He's sort of clumsy in somethings... very ungraceful in certain situations. Yet, he fits in anywhere, even if he has to cut the circle and make it square so that his shape fits the 'mold.' :-)

    He likes to work out 'cause it makes him feel good. He has that sort of attitude - "Let's do something because we want to, because we like to do it, because that's what we feel like doing." There isn't much feeling of obligation that I see. Like, I do things because I feel I need to. I feel a sense of responsibility for many of the things I do. I do not feel he is that way as much. He is not unable to handle responsibilities, yet he isn't as keen on it. He works best in an environment of chaos, open-ended, no time constraints (for the most part). He is fairly self-motivated, though. He is also very relational. People are everything to him. Getting the job done is important, yes, but building relationships with people is probably higher on the list of priorities.

    Yes, he is our relationship person. From his point of view, he wants to influence and be apart of a person's life as much as possible. He does lean towards the manipulative side of life, but [that's because of] his own past habits. I don't think there is malice in his actions now, just lingering of old habits that were developed when he was younger.

    He likes to learn, to explore complex things. He likes to pick things apart and understand something completely, people especially. He is fascinated by "If I do this, they will react like this... or will they react in another way?" [Or,] "I do A and C reacts with D to equal B." That sort of thing.

    D is growing, changing, developing... I feel that in two years, he will be very different. God has done much with him already. I have very high hopes for the man he will one day become. Right now he is fighting hard against the stuff that has controlled his life for so long, and he is doing a very good job. I see in him a man trying to put his life back together, sort of [like picking] up a piece of sewing after having left it years ago. He's sort of lost at how to live, but he's remembering how to make certain stitches. Eventually he'll figure out what exactly it is that he is making and it will be incredible. He struggles against going back to what he was, to how he thought, to how he lived. He is still coming around to what actually is right. He was so long on the wrong side of life he has lost a decent sense of where boundaries should be. You may notice this. Yet we cannot hold it against him, for he was bent far more than we were and he has come farther back from being bent than we have, in many senses of that idea.

    He has a big heart. Sometimes it doesn't feel like love, but he shows his love in a different way. He isn't as individual [in how he shows it]. You will notice, he deals with many people, many relationships. He keeps girls especially at an arms length, yet he fights habits of his that try and take the relationship of a girl/guy into weird and dangerous waters. He is still learning how to be a brother. We have to be willing to teach him where you need to draw lines, yet also be gracious with him for having no clue as to where those line should be. He was never taught that! :-) And he has a big heart. He is sweet.

    Sometimes I feel as though he is a child. And again, I look at him from another angle I see a man. I watched him gently comb [A's little daughter's] hair. I saw what could turn into a father. Again, he has had deep conversations with me and I notice what could turn into a strong husband. I see a mind that sometimes will shut down. It will not accept or listen to reason or another view. At times I see him an utter fool. Then again, I will see a man who has such an intricate mind [with so] much knowledge. Yet knowledge in the hands of a fool really isn't much. Yet he has come so far.

    D is fascinating to me, I must admit. I see much potential in him to become so much, yet there is much in his life that hurts him. I see pain in his heart... pain that he doesn't deal with as a normal person would. It looks like things just run off him, like water off a duck, yet I think he feels more than he lets on. He needs us to build him up and encourage him. He needs some people to believe in him, believe that he can change, and at times forget it when we see him do something utterly stupid. And he needs people to give him the benefit of the doubt about certain things. He needs people to just accept it and move on and watch time change it, not utterly frustrate him about it. For he has a good heart, yet he has not the wisdom and understanding for how to let his heart show how much he cares.

    He is very defensive about those he loves, very protective. I have an understanding that if I were in danger he would protect me. I get a feeling that no body should hurt me or come across wrong to me in anyway when he is with me.

    I feel safe when I am with him. I feel important for the most part. I feel accepted when I hang out with him. Sometimes I get mocked, for he is very sarcastic and at times pretty biting in his humor. You have to watch out for that. He enjoys making people laugh, so be prepared to laugh at yourself! For that is his attitude... life is a party!!!!

    Yet, he is serious. There are glimpses I've had of this side of him that surprise me and make me happy to see. For I see a man that loves God and really wants to grow. I see a man who is serious about becoming different and new. He does know at times how to sit down and not goof off. Yes, he is unique... crazy.. wild... chaotic... foolish... lovable... silly.. and absolutely adorable at times. That is D.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
    ()


    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    I think this confirms A as ENFp and D as ENTp, especially if R is ESFj.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Do you think you could break down how you came to those conclusions, like you did for R? I'd still like to know how to type people and your reply before was very helpful.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
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    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    Ok, first on D --

    First you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    The second person (we'll call him “D”) is known by both R and me. She gets along with him pretty well; I don't as much. Whereas R is detail oriented, D is much more big picture. I fall somewhere in between. He says she has a calming effect on his thoughts. I'm not sure exactly how to describe D because I don't understand him very well. It's easier to tell my reactions to him than what he actually is. We have many of the same goals, but our approach seems to be different. Our backgrounds are very different, so that might be part of it. I particularly want to know his type.
    That was too little and vague, but what you said suggested intuition. Since R seemed to be ESFj, it was natural to think of INTj, her dual, even while acknowledging that more information was necessary.

    Later you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    Okay, let's move on to D. I should perhaps at this point say that I can get along amicably with most people. We may not always agree, understand each other, or even prefer each other's company, but I can feel kindly toward just about everybody and generally receive neutral, if not friendly, vibes from them. I also can remain fairly calm. I feel strong emotions, but I can generally keep control of them. D is one of the few people who can get by those barriers of control and inspire me to firey emotions, particularly anger. Over the past few months, my verbal self-expression, in my journal and to my confidants, has been more negative than usual and the topic is usually D or related to something that we've both been doing or discussing.
    Ok, assuming you are INFj, R is ESFj and D is indeed intuitive, this suggests that D is a type with whom you'd have a particularly bad relationship but R would have a rather good one. That alone would indicate ENTp, your supervisee and R's activity partner. Another possibility would be ENFj, your contrary and R's comparative - but that doesn't sound as fitting as ENTp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    I should also say that usually I can figure people out fairly quickly, at least in terms of what they want and how I can respond to them so we get along. Depending on the individual and how often we interact, I can generally get to the point where I can predict their attitudes and reactions, especially in the emotional and relationship realm. I understand them and their desires. I can't predict D. Sometimes I think I've figured something out, then he'll go and do something that breaks the pattern.
    Confirming the above, and suggesting that he's irrational - and consistent with his PoLR being your base function.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    He's a social butterfly. It's hard for him to be alone, I think. He's always got to be doing something with people, whether it's playing, talking on the phone, emailing (while at work), or whatever. I think, also, that people tend to follow and be attracted by him. I'll watch him in a room with lots of people. He'll go and sit down, sometimes by himself but usually with another person, and people (especially certain ones) will end up kind of gathered around him. He and I tried to have a (playful) debate once, and we couldn't finish because people kept jumping in and interrupting to question him.
    That goes against INTj, if there was any doubt by now. It suggests someone who's socially outgoing and charming in a superficial way, which is not conclusive but unlikely for INTjs. Would fit ENFj well, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    I think he also craves emotional attention. I've noticed that whenever things begin to calm down, something always comes up (especially with girls) where he thinks/feels he has to/wants to fix the relationship. It doesn't even have to be between him and another person. One time he emailed me and told me that he noticed some “tension” between me and another girl. Now, she and I often have a hard time understanding each other, but up till then I'd trusted my sense that despite that we still liked each other. His comment scared me (since I don't always trust myself to notice things), so I went and talked with the girl (we can call her “RJ” for future reference). She confirmed that though we didn't always get each other, she had no hard feelings and understood that I felt friendly toward her, too. D's unnecessary interference annoyed me and I still don't completely understand what he thought he was doing.
    This paragraph made me think ENFj, but the very first line made me think of the ENTp's hidden agenda. Also, it suggested a lack of understanding of the emotional boundaries between people which is more indicative of the ENTp's PoLR. An ENFj would probably be more skilled at such things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    He's very good at noticing the physical characteristics of things and putting those observations together in his head, even better than R. I think that's because he likes theories and approaching things more abstractly. Some of his comments that come from his observations sting me, though they're not meant to.
    This was confusing since it suggests a sensor, but it also suggests . But honestly speaking, for you as an INFj, most other types would be comparatively good at noticing the physical characteristics of things.


    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    He is very relaxed when it comes to planning and doing things. Generally thorough, but relaxed. That annoys me sometimes, because I like to have the loose ends taken care of and the destinations to be a little bit more sure and secure.
    That is what Rocky meant with MBTI-like descriptions, but taken at face value it suggests an Irrational. But it could also mean a rational with strong such as the ENFj.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    There is one issue that has really pushed my buttons and made me genuinely angry, and that's how he views people in terms of their capabilities.

    - --

    D says I overreacted, and maybe I did, though it doesn't bother me any less.
    The first bit suggests , and the rest is typical supervisor-supervisee interaction -- he did something you find objectionable in the / area, and he thinks you're overreacting. Precisely how the supervisee reacts to the supervisor.

    Both point out very strongly to ENTp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    Another thing is, sometimes he takes me more seriously than I thought he did. His pride and I'm-always-right attitude (though he denies it) often puts me off from talking with him about things. I've decided that I can't debate him because he doesn't easily concede points. In fact, if it looks like he's loosing he'll go in logical circles or simply hang onto something like a bulldog and refuse to admit that I'm right. But then he'll surprise me by taking something that I say and take it to people that he looks up to (like A) and ask them what they think about it. Of course, he doesn't tells me that he's doing this; I usually hear about his efforts second hand.
    It's difficult to say because you didn't mention what the issue was. If it was ethics/feelings/relationship related, and if he's ENTp, he'd react defensively but then check with someone whose judgement he respects in those areas - so A if ENFp would be ideal. It does not contradict ENTp but neither does it really confirm it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    His past is somewhat violent. His first fight was in first grade over a girl. He ended up in jail for several years, and only checked his violent tendencies after giving his life to Christ. He hasn't been in any physical altercations during the time that I've known him, though.
    That is a bit odd for an ENTp or ENFj and suggests rather ESTp or ISTp. However an ISTp would not likely be a "social butterfly", and an ESTp would be your conflictor and R's benefactor and it didn't sound like it. However, it introduces ESTp as a possibility which I had not considered; and it becomes plausible if we assume that your "big picture" thing was no indication of being N.

    Later you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    Alrighty, let me describe some interaction between D, A, and myself, the three of us together. D was proposing and planning on having our group go out and socialize with homeless and other “down and out” people on the streets. Mostly just talking with and listening to them, but also giving them a lunch and some info on where they could go if they wanted help (like the local Rescue Mission). I had mentioned before that I'd rather do something else, but he didn't ask why. By the way he was talking, I knew that he had jumped to the conclusions that because I am reserved around strangers and that I've had a “sheltered” life that was just being immature and close-minded. He's only used those types of words a couple of times, but the same general attitude toward me has surfaced more often than I can easily put up with. He's four years older than me and has “experienced a lot more of life” than I have, so evidently that gives him the final word in any matters of dispute. I should add at this point that A is older than D.

    Now, I approved of the general idea and goal – the idea is to love people, not preach to them. But the way he was planning it and talking about it, combined with the current make-up and attitudes of the group members as well as other various logistic variables (weather, local, etc.) I wasn't feeling too comfortable with it. However, I was having a hard time explaining myself to him. It seemed that everything I tried to say was filtered through his pre-set perception of me. Which just made me more frustrated and less coherent.

    At this point, A came into the room and asked what we were talking about. D told him what he was planning. (The funny thing is, though D and A have been sharing a house and evidently talk to each other quite a bit, they often don't know what the other is planning. I guess they like to discuss ideas and goals more than their practical applications.) A indicated that he wanted my opinion and I stumbled something out about it being a good idea but not right now. He said, “Yeah, I don't think it's a good idea, either.” D's body language changed immediately (to more submissive), looked a little surprised and asked why A thought that way. A said that the goal was good, but he didn't think the group was ready and that it might be a good idea to work people up to it by giving them examples and having the less-gregarious people practice some. D looked disappointed, but he didn't argue. I felt bad about that – that's partly the reason I didn't fight against the idea as hard as I could have – he was so enthusiastic and I didn't want to dampen that. It seems I failed. He's been less enthusastic since then about planning his own ideas.
    .
    This whole story tells little about D except suggesting that he's not ESTp; doesn't feel like an dominant person -- an ESTp would have argued a bit, I think.

    Now, on R's impressions of D - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    D - He is our typical social butterfly. He loves to be the center of attention. Very laid back (unless it has something to do with his own personal work). Casual... appearance isn't important unless it is really something incredible. He's not opposed to looking good, it's just not something that is entirely important. As he said to me once, he wears baggy cloths to be modest. For I do confess, he has a very nice figure and he does look pretty good with out a shirt on. Though when he said it to me it took me by surprise that he thought of things in that manner.
    His disregard for his appearance speaks against ESTp, since those I have known so far do pay attention to their appearance a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    He's an utter flirt with girls. I think it's 'cause he doesn't quite know how to be friendly with out being too friendly. I think he likes the attention and he likes girls. What can I say? He's a guy... girls are pretty and smell good... and he's very social. Maybe too social for his own good... but it's D! :-)
    That is typical EXTp, consequence of PoLR and hidden agenda.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    He's sort of clumsy in somethings... very ungraceful in certain situations. Yet, he fits in anywhere, even if he has to cut the circle and make it square so that his shape fits the 'mold.' :-)
    Same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    He likes to work out 'cause it makes him feel good. He has that sort of attitude - "Let's do something because we want to, because we like to do it, because that's what we feel like doing." There isn't much feeling of obligation that I see. Like, I do things because I feel I need to. I feel a sense of responsibility for many of the things I do. I do not feel he is that way as much. He is not unable to handle responsibilities, yet he isn't as keen on it. He works best in an environment of chaos, open-ended, no time constraints (for the most part). He is fairly self-motivated, though. He is also very relational. People are everything to him. Getting the job done is important, yes, but building relationships with people is probably higher on the list of priorities.
    This confirms socionics irrational.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    Yes, he is our relationship person. From his point of view, he wants to influence and be apart of a person's life as much as possible. He does lean towards the manipulative side of life, but [that's because of] his own past habits. I don't think there is malice in his actions now, just lingering of old habits that were developed when he was younger.

    He likes to learn, to explore complex things. He likes to pick things apart and understand something completely, people especially. He is fascinated by "If I do this, they will react like this... or will they react in another way?" [Or,] "I do A and C reacts with D to equal B." That sort of thing.
    All of this suggests , actually, and is part of the things that made me think of ENFj -- but it's probably as hidden agenda.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    He has a big heart. Sometimes it doesn't feel like love, but he shows his love in a different way. He isn't as individual [in how he shows it]. You will notice, he deals with many people, many relationships. He keeps girls especially at an arms length, yet he fights habits of his that try and take the relationship of a girl/guy into weird and dangerous waters. He is still learning how to be a brother. We have to be willing to teach him where you need to draw lines, yet also be gracious with him for having no clue as to where those line should be. He was never taught that! :-) And he has a big heart. He is sweet.
    This sounds like a description of PoLR.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    For he has a good heart, yet he has not the wisdom and understanding for how to let his heart show how much he cares.

    He is very defensive about those he loves, very protective. I have an understanding that if I were in danger he would protect me. I get a feeling that no body should hurt me or come across wrong to me in anyway when he is with me.
    Same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    I feel safe when I am with him. I feel important for the most part. I feel accepted when I hang out with him. Sometimes I get mocked, for he is very sarcastic and at times pretty biting in his humor. You have to watch out for that. He enjoys making people laugh, so be prepared to laugh at yourself! For that is his attitude... life is a party!!!!
    Up to now I saw a lot of things that confirm EXTp, with indications for ENTp, some for ESTp and a lot for both. I have decided on ENTp mostly because it seems to fit his relationship with you and R better.

    So the overall conclusion so far is ENTp, with ESTp a less likely possibility.

    I'll get to A later.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    First of all, thank you, Expat! You're wonderful! I appreciate your reply so much!

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Ok, assuming you are INFj, R is ESFj and D is indeed intuitive, this suggests that D is a type with whom you'd have a particularly bad relationship but R would have a rather good one. That alone would indicate ENTp, your supervisee and R's activity partner. Another possibility would be ENFj, your contrary and R's comparative - but that doesn't sound as fitting as ENTp.
    It sounds like we're pretty sure that R is ESFj. Are you confident in my type? If I've mistyped myself, that could mess up our conclusions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    That goes against INTj, if there was any doubt by now. It suggests someone who's socially outgoing and charming in a superficial way, which is not conclusive but unlikely for INTjs. Would fit ENFj well, though.
    Charming... yes, he has the ability to charm. Even when I'm angry at him he can still make me smile. If he wants to, he can make just about anybody like him. I think it's half silliness, yet half seriousness when he mentions Don Juan de Marco as a hero.

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    He's very good at noticing the physical characteristics of things and putting those observations together in his head, even better than R. I think that's because he likes theories and approaching things more abstractly. Some of his comments that come from his observations sting me, though they're not meant to.
    This was confusing since it suggests a sensor, but it also suggests . But honestly speaking, for you as an INFj, most other types would be comparatively good at noticing the physical characteristics of things.
    Sad, but true... Way too often I feel... no, I know... that I'm missing things that other people take for granted that they see. It takes an effort to notice the physical characteristics of things – new environments can be overwhelming. The reason his comments bite so much is because I wish I could be better at noticing things. But I'll stick to my original comment that he seems to me to be better than most people at observing and forming startlingly accurate conclusions from those observations. Or, perhaps he is simply more verbal in expressing those conclusions... *shrugs*

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    He is very relaxed when it comes to planning and doing things. Generally thorough, but relaxed. That annoys me sometimes, because I like to have the loose ends taken care of and the destinations to be a little bit more sure and secure.
    That is what Rocky meant with MBTI-like descriptions, but taken at face value it suggests an Irrational. But it could also mean a rational with strong such as the ENFj.
    What I meant by this is that he does like to plan, but he also likes to leave the plans a little open-ended. He doesn't try as hard as I do to pin things down, to make sure everything is going to happen like we want it to.

    But, he does show signs of wanting some sort of plan, a method to his madness. For example, at our New Year's party, our cars got TP'd by our church's high school group. Some of us (not me) decided to exact revenge. As they went running off, TP in hand, D said, “Hey! Let's get some sort of plan! Let's think about this!” or something to that effect. He obviously recognized that the attack would be more effective with some thought behind it. But the group didn't listen and he didn't push the matter, just laughed it off and followed to watch.

    He likes chaos, but when it's under his control or influence. His job environment, from what he's told me, is somewhat disorganized and chaotic at times. He seems to thrive during the crunch times, especially. But a couple of times he's complained that it's too chaotic. He gets discouraged when he can't restore order to the disorder.

    He likes it when people trust him to take care of things. At least, that's what he's always telling me. “Chill. Relax. Trust me! It'll all work out.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    Another thing is, sometimes he takes me more seriously than I thought he did. His pride and I'm-always-right attitude (though he denies it) often puts me off from talking with him about things. I've decided that I can't debate him because he doesn't easily concede points. In fact, if it looks like he's loosing he'll go in logical circles or simply hang onto something like a bulldog and refuse to admit that I'm right. But then he'll surprise me by taking something that I say and take it to people that he looks up to (like A) and ask them what they think about it. Of course, he doesn't tells me that he's doing this; I usually hear about his efforts second hand.
    It's difficult to say because you didn't mention what the issue was. If it was ethics/feelings/relationship related, and if he's ENTp, he'd react defensively but then check with someone whose judgement he respects in those areas - so A if ENFp would be ideal. It does not contradict ENTp but neither does it really confirm it.
    The “logical circles” comes into play when we're discussing more non-feelings type stuff. For example, the playful debate I mentioned earlier was regarding evolutionism v. creationism. That's a topic that I grew up hearing about and the side I took was the one I've been trained to defend. He took the other side. I can safely say that I was soundly beating him (using both logic and knowledge), but he wouldn't give ground at all and kept returning to the points that I had already covered. To be fair, he was arguing for something he disagreed with and also on a topic that he didn't have a lot of expertise in, so it would be harder to come up with solid opposing points. But I think pride and not wanting to be beat by a girl was part of it, too.

    As for taking things I say to other people to see what they think, here's one example: We had been discussing leadership, particularly as it relates to the church. I tend toward congregational rule, he seems to like the follow-the-leader idea better. We didn't have time to finish the discussion, so I emailed an excerpt from something someone had written that I thought did a good job of explaining my position on the matter. He didn't respond to it, so I thought he had at best simply read it over and dismissed it. Quite the contrary. He printed it off and showed to A, a couple of other people, and the head pastor of our church to see what they thought and to get more information. When he told me this I was surprised that he took me so seriously. When he and I (or even he and R) disagree on something he usually puts up this wall of arrogance and acts like he knows what he's talking about. Then he said something else that surprised me, too - he said that he had felt offended by the way I had presented the information, that it felt too “cut-and-pasted” and “choppy.” He didn't explain himself much further, and I'm still puzzled...

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    His past is somewhat violent. His first fight was in first grade over a girl. He ended up in jail for several years, and only checked his violent tendencies after giving his life to Christ. He hasn't been in any physical altercations during the time that I've known him, though.
    That is a bit odd for an ENTp or ENFj and suggests rather ESTp or ISTp. However an ISTp would not likely be a "social butterfly", and an ESTp would be your conflictor and R's benefactor and it didn't sound like it. However, it introduces ESTp as a possibility which I had not considered; and it becomes plausible if we assume that your "big picture" thing was no indication of being N.
    He has had a rough life. He had no real parents, at least none that cared to get involved in his life. By grade school it was already habit to vandalize, steal, and beat people up. His teen years were even worse and he was in jail before he graduated high school. As R said, he's changed a lot. I've only known him since he got out. Perhaps these experiences have altered or exaggerated parts of his personality...?
    INFj / EII / FiNe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    It sounds like we're pretty sure that R is ESFj. Are you confident in my type? If I've mistyped myself, that could mess up our conclusions.
    *shrugs* All I can do is work with the data I have available; I am not certain of anything.

    Based on those data and what I have read of your posts, I have no reason to doubt you are an INFj, although you could perhaps be an ENFp or an INFp.

    I'm using the relationships to cross-check the descriptions; R seems clearly ESFj to me and to others, and D seems EXTp, more likely ENTp than ESTp. If you're not INFj, depending on which type you are this could make the intertype relationships more fuzzy, but I don't think it would invalidate the typings so far.

    But again, I'm just building up a case based on the information I have.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Hmm, if this helps by adding more data, I just got this from R today. I asked her to describe other people we both know and she's absolutely loving it. Anyway, here's what she wrote about me (again, edited somewhat):

    "Well, there's this girl I know... She's really pretty. Sometimes she can be down right adorable. She's a dear friend of mine.

    "The first thing you will notice about this lady is that she is thorough. Details become very important, even the smallest thing has value and matters. (This can drive some people nuts might I add!) She likes order and stability. Doing what is exactly right is very important to her. Sometimes she has a hard time with things that aren't exactly kosher.

    "I see someone very picky. And I see someone who can get very overworked. She loves to do a good job, in fact the best job. I respect her for this, yet it drives me nuts 'cause I think it drains her too much sometimes. At times she tries to solve everything. This can be good and it can be bad. I fear at times she worries too much about too many little things! She is particular. Things have to be done a certain way (well, they don't have to, but she likes it when it is just so).

    "She is also very thoughtful. At times she can be difficult to understand, for she is a very complex woman. In my mind her greatest ability is her ability to love and show care for those around her. For, [when she does and says] certain things I see her show love, though at times I think her words can come across sharp when she disagrees.

    "She is one that feels deeply, though [it's] not always seen because of the formal way in which she speaks of things. There is [a] depth of heart and feeling beneath her very analytical self.

    "When I think of her, I think of a lady that is gentle, kind, and very loving. She has an ability to see insightfully into those around her. I see great wisdom in her eyes. She is a shy person, doesn't often speak out, at least in a larger group of people. She is gracious and compassionate (except when she's driving, because you are just going too slow or you are not getting out of her way properly!)

    "She's a tower of strength to those around her. She questions those who might enter her city with seriousness and protectiveness. She is well guarded by those that love her, and those that love her are most definitely many. She has a great capacity to care for those around her.

    "A very important part to this woman is her love and gifting with art. She has an eye for beauty and an understanding of artistic things. This is a side to her that shows incredible talent and wisdom.

    "She likes to match and look good, not always perfect mind you, but she likes to present herself well and dress attractively. Though not necessarily for the purpose of attracting, may I make mention.

    "I think she is very beautiful in a way that one doesn't alway see. It is something beneath the skin, under her. It comes out of her, a flowing beauty and grace. It was given to her and she has taken it on and conformed to it in her own unique way.

    "Also, however gentle and subdued she may be, she is also very independent. She is not afraid to think on her own. Some people just follow the leader or think what has been taught them or what their friends believe, yet she doesn't conform to that. She analyzes, breaks down, and attempts to understand what she believes to the umpteenth degree and make sure that what she believes is right and accurate. She wishes to understand concepts to the fullest and in the most complete way. She is a woman that seeks the truth and seeks to understand wisdom.

    "She is still between womanhood and childhood, for she carries a degree of innocence that I think makes her all the more attractive. Yet she is still growing and developing into a beautiful woman. She is still learning and understanding how to live independently on her own in this world.

    "She is a dear friend to me, I have known her for a long time and there is much history in her. I have seen her in lots of different situations. I don't think I've even begun to understand her yet though, for she is far more complex than that. She is an intricate design, beautiful in every way, but so detailed that it takes years of studying to truly understand and see. She is complete, with different colors, shades, shapes, images... delicate, yet strong; gentle, yet independent; gracious, yet determined."

    Some of this is a little embarrassing.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
    ()


    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

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    Based on this description alone, I'd say INFj or ISFj ethical subtype; but with base on what you've said previously, and taking into account that R is ESFj, I think this confirms you as INFj.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Well, that's good to know. If I can accurately type myself, theoretically I should find it easier to type other people. Theoretically...

    You said earlier that you could do a break-down on why you thought A was ENFp. Would you still be willing to do that? (I'm sorry if I'm bothering you. )
    INFj / EII / FiNe
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    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    Right --

    A:

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    The third person is in authority over all three of us (we'll call him “A”). He's very easygoing and a self-acknowledged people pleaser.
    At face value, that suggests a Feeling type.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    R finds him frustrating because of his lack of definition and follow-through;
    This suggests Irrational, but if he's a Feeler, probably not ESFp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    I find him easy to approach and open to my suggestions. He likes to come in, stir things up, tell us his visions for the group, disappear for awhile, then do it again. This used to frustrate me, too, till I decided that the best response was to smile and nod, affirm that his ideas were great, add the ideas to the list of things to implement, decide which ones were practical, and go from there.
    This suggests an Intutive irrational, so based on the previous information, I was already thinking of ENFp, although others were still possible - like INFp or even ENTp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    One thing that I appreciate about A is that though he and I can disagree on theory, we can usually compromise in practice. I think he's very wrong in quite a few areas, but we're both willing to compromise to reach our shared goals. D gets along with A, too.
    He seems to be different from A but gets along with him, he also gets along with you in a way that is compatible with mirror, so so far ENFp is a good solution (but not necessarily the only one).


    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    Let's see, the differences between R and A... They are actually similar in a lot of ways. They both are good listeners; they both tend to offer positive suggestions, as opposed to negative criticisms; neither seek out conflict; they both are forgiving; both are careless in their written grammar and spelling. And I, personally, find them both very approachable.
    Just confirms probable Feeler and good relationship with INFj.

    Taking Reinin dichotomies at face value, his being "positive" would speak against ENFp though. It would suggest INFj or INFp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    They're different in their reading habits. A likes to read about ideas for doing stuff better. He's always saying to me, “Look what I found about such-and-such! Read it – aren't they good ideas?” R likes to read stories about people and she likes to moralize the situations and delve into their theological meanings.
    Nothing conclusive, actually suggests , but it's consistent dominant and with as hidden agenda of ENFps and what I have observed in them generally. However, it could also have suggested ENTp, ENTj, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    When talking about stuff, A likes to talk about the overarching issues. He's good at making connections between larger ideas.
    Suggests N and T. Too vague.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    A is aesthetically oriented. He likes to incorporate the arts into his youth program. For example, he's asked several artistic people in our church to paint murals on the youth room walls and he loves using Photoshop to make slides for Powerpoint.
    In itself this suggests S types, something to keep in mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    A is much more willing to use the internet to find information and ideas. To R, the web is unfamiliar, foreign, and she doesn't feel inclined to explore it.
    Is consistent with ENFp but, in itself, means very little.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    A leans toward exploring ideas; R leans more toward exploring experiences. For example, she's one of the more well-traveled people that I know (she spent a month in Australia last year, for example) and she's gone bungee jumping (and loved it).
    It suggests intuitive rather than sensor for A, but a bit vague.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    R finds A frustrating because he'll offer ideas without following through on them. In contrast, I think A appreciates R for her willingness and ability to responsibly get stuff done. I'm not sure if A knows about R's frustrations. He hasn't indicated as such, but that doesn't mean he doesn't see it.
    This is further evidence for A as irrational, intuitive, and fits a relationship of Benefit with an ESFj, so ENFp fits well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    Oh, I just thought of another difference. A isn't the best communicator in that he doesn't initiate the spread of information about what's going on. I've found that I have to approach him, give him my info and specifically ask for what I want to know. R, in contrast, will usually double-check with people to make sure they're on the same page. I generally know where she is with regards to something and what she's going to do.
    It merely suggests that R has stronger than A but it doesn't really mean much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    A - Well, when I first met him I was a little wary of him, not quite sure what he'd be like. I respect him in that he does have a real passion for youth and he does have a lot of good ideas. He drives me nuts because he has no order or, it seems to me, a plan.
    As before, this is consistent with how an ESFj would see an ENFp, but it could be any other XNxp type.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    I see him as very honest and straight forward. He is very open and willing to listen, when he can. It takes him time to do things, [and] we have to give a little grace when he's late or does do things last minute, because it takes him longer to work through things. He doesn't always give clear directions or define much of anything. He communicates, in that he can talk to anyone, though practical communication isn't his strong point. He does need to work on accurately and timely transferring news to and from people and groups of people. I think he has a difficult time getting the things that are in his head out into daily life.
    Again, XNxp, but his overall personality does not suggests INTp. Since he seems different from D - also in his relationships with you and R - that eliminates ENTp, so we have ENFp or INFp. But an INFp would be your quasi-identical and R's supervisor, and it doesn't sound like it. So again ENFp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    Sometimes I wish he could better understand his high schoolers and better tailor his teaching to them. For instance, I believe he tries to take them too deep and teaches them in a way that isn't engaging enough or practical enough for them. I do like his walk through the Old Testament, but I think it isn't benefiting the kids that he is teaching, it doesn't hit them where they are at. He is good at making me think about things on a deeper level and in a different way, he challenges me to look outside and see beyond what I am normally accustomed.
    Just suggests that he isn't dominant and perhaps N.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    I see A as a very unique, laid back, generous individual. He hasn't quite grown up yet. He has a lot of areas he needs to develop in to become an effective youth pastor, but he has a lot of good qualities that I don't think people see all the time. He is fairly outgoing, yet I see a certain amount of reservedness in him. I don't see him very serious about much, even when we are doing serious things. I don't see him as a serious person. Yet, he isn't the life of the party either... he sorter finds himself at a nice balance. He isn't good with defined boundaries and strict rules. He doesn't like tradition, or at least he doesn't abide by it that much. He is very curious and experimental. He likes energy and attracts those that are like him.
    This says nothing against ENFp but neither does it really confirm it either, expect perhaps a slight impression of an N and/or p person.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    I honestly don't feel like I know him, yet I'm never afraid to talk to him. He comes across as a sort of mild guy. He seems younger than he is. I think he is the sort of guy that measures [the success of the group] in numbers, or at least desires greater numbers. I believe he focuses on image as well. That is something that isn't of utmost importance, yet it is something he is cautious of. He has ideas, yet he doesn't have a practical understanding of how to develop them and bring them into being.
    In itself this means little, but it somewhat confirms the image formed so far.

    In the case of A, it's not that there is anything about him that "screams" ENFp -- ENFp is consistent with his overall personality, but so would, perhaps, INFp, ENTp. What made me decide for ENFp was also his interactions with D, R, and yourself, which seemed to eliminate other types.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Another way of looking into it would be this.

    Despite some inconsistencies, he makes a general impression of being intuitive and a feeler. That leaves INFj, ENFp, ENFj, INFp. But an INFj would get along better with yourself and R, and not as well with D. ENFj is possible but R seemed to think he lacked . Also, he generally makes an impression of irrationality. That goes against ENFj and INFj.

    INFp is possible, but it doesn't fit as well with his relationship with you and R as ENFp.

    So again, it's not obvious, A doesn't make as strong an impression of ENFp as R does of ESFj, but his most consistent characteristics do suggest ENFp and this is what fits the relationship best.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Thank you for the break-down on A. It's helpful seeing how you look not only at the description of the person's characteristics, but the description of their relationships with different people. Perhaps as time goes along I'll get better at knowing what to look for, which will make it easier to type him. As it is, I can easily accept him as an ENFp. I suspected it to begin with.

    I have another question: If I'm INFj and D is ENTp, I'm the supervisor and he's the supervisee, why do I so often feel inferior when I'm around him? Like I'm being evaluated and found wanting? I feel like he looks at me like I'm broken in places, patronizingly forgives me, and seeks to “fix” me. Not outrightly, but that's the thought process that is conveyed to me. It's like I can't be like myself when I'm around him; I feel the need to be somehow better, though it seems I can never achieve it. Isn't this a little backward, considering our types?
    INFj / EII / FiNe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    I have another question: If I'm INFj and D is ENTp, I'm the supervisor and he's the supervisee, why do I so often feel inferior when I'm around him? Like I'm being evaluated and found wanting? I feel like he looks at me like I'm broken in places, patronizingly forgives me, and seeks to “fix” me. Not outrightly, but that's the thought process that is conveyed to me. It's like I can't be like myself when I'm around him; I feel the need to be somehow better, though it seems I can never achieve it. Isn't this a little backward, considering our types?
    I'm not sure that the supervisee always feels inferior around the supervisor. My supervisor is the ISTp, and I don't feel inferior around them; it's more a sense of powerlessness since I can't get them to do anything. I also saw signs of your supervising him in terms of his relationships with people. In supervision, usually it's more disturbing to the supervisee than to the supervisor. If I got your types right, I'd guess that your presence disturbs him more than you realize, and what you described is his "counter-attack".
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    "Counter attack" *sigh* Maybe I'll start another thread titled, "Improving Supervision: ENTp/INFj." In fact, I think I'll do that right now...
    INFj / EII / FiNe
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    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

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    OK, so I have another question about R: Is it typical of an ESFj to regularly say things like, "Suck it up and deal with it" ? When people have a problem with things or people, sometimes she'll say that, or tell it to me later. I personally find that soothing. It keeps me from obsessing. But other people sometimes get offended. So is that a typical ESFj thing?
    INFj / EII / FiNe
    ()


    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    This is far too specific a trait to be attributed to any type.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Oh.

    Well, I just thought that... maybe... never mind.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
    ()


    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

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