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Thread: Every socionist should know this Star Trek episode

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    Default Every socionist should know this Star Trek episode

    Star Trek TNG has always been one of my favourite TV shows and the episode Conundrum is certainly one of its best episodes. I think I watched it first when I was about 13 years old...

    Even if you are not a trekkie you should watch it and think about it because it illustrates what "socionics type" really means: The crew lost their identities but everyone still behaves according to his socionics type:

    Captain Picard: LII
    Commander Riker: EII
    Lt.Commander Data: LII
    Counselor Troi: EII
    Doctor Crusher: IEI
    Lt.Commander La Forge: ILE
    Liutenant Worf: SLI
    Ensign Ro: LII

    Do you think it would work like that in real life if nobody knew who he was?








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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    Star Trek TNG has always been one of my favourite TV shows and the episode Conundrum is certainly one of its best episodes. I think I watched it first when I was about 13 years old...
    mm...

    Q Who?
    Chain of Command Part II
    Yesterday's Enterprise
    Best of Both Worlds

    In that order.
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    IMO. Bold means I'm sure.

    Captain Picard: LSI
    Commander Riker: Gamma Extrotim. LIE or SEE
    Lt.Commander Data: LII (ILE with emotion chip )
    Counselor Troi: EIE
    Doctor Crusher: LSI (seems like she and Picard are identicals. She might be more though.)
    Lt.Commander La Forge: IEI
    Lieutenant Worf: ESI
    Ensign Ro: SLE
    Guinan:IEI
    Q: ILE
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    Q has to be my dual. I'm discarding this BS theory if he isn't.

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    I thought that Data was ILI.

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    God, Johndo. Each and every one of your typings is atrocious.

    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes
    Captain Picard: LSI
    I'm conflicted between calling him Logical, Serious and IJ. Unfortunately there isn't a type that combines these traits. Which I do end up calling him is a matter of emphasis. I personally prefer ISFj for some reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes
    Commander Riker: Gamma Extrotim. LIE or SEE
    I definitely agree that he is extroverted. Other than that I find him difficult to pin down.

    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes
    Lt.Commander Data: LII
    It always annoys me when people say things along the lines of "data is a hypertypical INTj" because there is no such thing as hypertypical. Hypertypical is atypical. Data is an android and weird by virtue of being fictional. That's as far as I'll go where typing him is concerned.

    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes
    Counselor Troi: EIE
    She behaves pronouncedly introverted through most of the series. I don't see how this typing can be defended over INFj or (maybe) INFp.

    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes
    Lt.Commander La Forge: IEI
    I get beta NF vibes from this guy too.

    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes
    Lieutenant Worf: ESI
    I agree. Again, probably not a Merry type like ISTj. Worf is distinguished from his Klingon peers in exactly that he has a hard time blending in with their "Merry" social habits.

    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes
    Guinan: IEI
    Whoopie Goldberg seems to be ENFp, so that's what I think the character should be called.

    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes
    Q: ILE
    Absolutely indisputable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    It always annoys me when people say things along the lines of "data is a hypertypical INTj" because there is no such thing as hypertypical. Hypertypical is atypical. Data is an android and weird by virtue of being fictional. That's as far as I'll go where typing him is concerned.
    Yeah, I don't think he's a typical LII and I'm pretty sure the writers went out of their way to make him seem non-human. The actor portraying him (Brent Spiner) seems like an Alpha. That's why I picked LII over ILI.

    He does often seek to integrate himself into the "merry" group activities of the rest of the crew in his quest to become more human, which is a good reason to suppose > seeking.

    She behaves pronouncedly introverted through most of the series. I don't see how this typing can be defended over INFj or (maybe) INFp.
    Some EIEs can seem like introverts in my experience. I'm totally unsure about her type, but I chose because her empathic abilities are externally directed. She gets easily flooded by other people's emotions that wash over her own, especially early on in the series.

    It could just be a race characteristic or whatever and not have anything do with her type.

    I agree. Again, probably not a Merry type like ISTj. Worf is distinguished from his Klingon peers in exactly that he has a hard time blending in with their "Merry" social habits.
    Yes exactly. The same is true of Odo from DS9. I get the impression they are introverts from the same quadra. And I consider Odo as ILI and a textbook law-minded Gamma as well as a clear NT, not LSI as some people have suggested.

    Whoopie Goldberg seems to be ENFp, so that's what I think the character should be called.
    I can't pin the actress down, but I thought introvert made some sense for Guinan because of the whole "I'm a listener. I listen." stuff, as though she's better at being receptive to information than giving it out. I probably shouldn't have bolded her typing because I'm not too sure. Definitely NF though.
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    And I consider Odo as ILI and a textbook law-minded Gamma as well as a clear NT, not LSI as some people have suggested.
    Yeah; Odo = INTp. I definitely see eye to eye on that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes
    Doctor Crusher: LSI
    Missed this one. I don't see any signs of Se in her, so I would be much more inclined to call her some INxj.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    Missed this one. I don't see any signs of Se in her, so I would be much more inclined to call her some INxj.
    I don't have a problem with LII.
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    Stewart is probably LSI, but Picard is most likely ESI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    Stewart is probably LSI, but Picard is most likely ESI.
    I have Patrick Stewart as ESFj, he's a carbon copy of my dad.
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    I have Patrick Stewart as ESFj, he's a carbon copy of my dad.
    Then your dad is LSI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    Then your dad is LSI.
    Nope.
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

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    I always thought Picard was a rather obvious ESI.

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    Picard is ESI, thus my dual. Patrick Stewart is an LSI.
    Riker - my real dual, SEE (also my favorite character, which doesn't usually work out to be my dual--could be because he's an extrovert and sticks out really well.)
    Troi - IEI
    Data is a pretty weird character, but I think LII fits him the closest stereotypically.
    Wesley Crusher - LII
    Beverly Crusher - EII
    TGN is a bundle of fun in high heels - SF extrovert

    It's interesting how most of the main characters seem introverted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by polikujm View Post
    Picard is ESI, thus my dual. Patrick Stewart is an LSI.
    Riker - my real dual, SEE (also my favorite character, which doesn't usually work out to be my dual--could be because he's an extrovert and sticks out really well.)
    Troi - IEI
    Data is a pretty weird character, but I think LII fits him the closest stereotypically.
    Wesley Crusher - LII
    Beverly Crusher - EII
    TGN is a bundle of fun in high heels - SF extrovert

    It's interesting how most of the main characters seem introverted.
    It seems as if every character has been your dual at one time or another.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    It seems as if every character has been your dual at one time or another.
    Well Troi could not have been my dual, since I've never self-typed as SLE, and Beverly Crusher, her son Wesley Crusher, Capt. Picard, or Data could never have really been my dual, because I've never self-typed as an EJ type. But there is still a tiny possibility all of these people could be my dual, just in case I somehow haven't come into contact with the correct interpretation of Socionics yet. I've read so many interpretations of it, yet I doubt I've covered the majority.

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    I used to watch TNG as a kid with my dad, but I haven't seen it since then, so while I'm familiar with the characters in a general sense, I don't remember any specifics. Watching this episode has rekindled my interest; I think I'll watch the series and then come back and see if my following typings are still the same.

    Ro: SLE. The most obvious typing of the episode, I think. Impulsive, aggressive, rebels against authority, doesn't like sitting and doing nothing. Her Aggressor romantic style is clearly shown in this episode.

    Picard: I agree with everybody that Picard is clearly an IJ type, but I'm also quite sure he's an Ne-valuer. The conflict between Picard and Worf early in the episode is strongly Se vs. Ne. Worf is focused on Se concerns -- making the ship ready for combat to protect themselves from external threats. Picard is focused on Ne concerns -- finding out the underlying nature of the situation, their identities. In fact, one of the common criticisms of Picard is that he spends too much time thinking before he acts -- he's Judicious, not Decisive.

    I could see him being EII, but I think his focus is on abstract moral principles ("Is it right to do this?") rather than human relationships, so I'm forced to conclude that he is LII.

    Riker: EIE? SLE? Something Extraverted; I'm having the same trouble as jxrtes and labcoat narrowing it down. For some reason I feel like he's a Merry type, but I can't justify it logically. I'll have to watch more episodes.

    Troi: IEI? I think she's Fe valuing, and I don't think it's just her abilities -- she sees her insight into people's emotions as important and useful, where someone who did not value Fe would probably not.

    Worf: I think he's LSI. Se is obvious, see above. However, he's less concerned with personal relationships (Fi) and more concerned with logical relationships -- when he learns that Picard is the captain and not him, he immediately accepts his position and apologizes for behaving otherwise. An ESI relates to people based on their personal sentiments towards them, not external relationships like rank and honour.

    Since I don't remember the episodes where Worf interacts with other Klingons, I can't really comment on that. I'll get back to that when I've watched more.

    Dr. Crusher: I get a vague impression that she might be EII, but nothing I could defend in a debate.

    Data: I think LII is pretty self-evident. He was always my favourite character as a kid, and now I understand why.
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    Not to pull an ad hominem, but I've yet to see a non-LII suggest Picard as one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MatthewZ View Post
    Not to pull an ad hominem, but I've yet to see a non-LII suggest Picard as one.
    How big is your sample size?
    Quaero Veritas.

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    To be clear, I don't conclude Picard is LII because of any particular feeling of kinship -- I relate to Data much more. LII is just the logical conclusion based on the data I mentioned in my previous post. If there is opposing data or different interpretations of the data, I'd of course like to hear it.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    How big is your sample size?
    Smaller than my penis but bigger than an elephant.

    As for reasons suggesting Picard as a non-LII, I'll offer that he places a high value on the loyalty of those around him and prefers to act on a gut instinct of right and wrong rather than what the context of a given situation might imply. While an LII certainly may possess these traits, I do not think LII is the type they are indicative of. I'll elaborate more in the morning.

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    This thread was not supposed to be a discussion about the characters' types because I thought their types were relatively clear at least to trekkies...

    Again, I ask myself if socionics on the internet really makes sense. There will never be agreement. Some people really type Picard as LSI or ESI? Ne-vulnerable? Hillarious...

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    This thread was not supposed to be a discussion about the characters' types because I thought their types were relatively clear at least to trekkies...
    You can't not expect type debates about anybody on here, except for maybe Weird Al Yankovich.
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

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    jxrtes, we only agree in 3 of 10 cases. But our dichotomy correlation is about 65%. That's not a bad value for 2 experienced socionists I guess...

    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    IMO. Bold means I'm sure.

    Captain Picard: LSI
    Doctor Crusher: LSI

    Lt.Commander La Forge: IEI
    Lieutenant Worf: ESI

    Commander Riker: Gamma Extrotim. LIE or SEE
    Counselor Troi: EIE

    Ensign Ro: SLE
    1.) Picard and Crusher are definitely intuitive. Both are researchers with a lot of unusual ideas. I find it hard to believe that anyone could see them as Ne-vulnerable...
    2.) How could Worf and La Forge be ethical types?! They appear to be clearly logical to me. Chief Engineer and Security Chief, not at all interested in ethical problems and hardly ever talk about ethics...
    3.) Riker and Troi are rather introverts but maybe they were supposed to be extraverts in the first episodes. There might be a type change from ENFj to INFj for Troi and ESTj to INFj for Riker. Just watch some of the earlier and later episodes...
    4.) Ensign Ro is tricky. She might look like an SLE in this episode but no, she is LII without a doubt...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno
    I thought that Data was ILI.
    Because of his suppressed emotions, right? Aliens and androids are hard to type. Using subtypes I'd say LII-ILI...

    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat
    God, Johndo. Each and every one of your typings is atrocious.
    But you are hardly able to type one of those characters completely...?

    Quote Originally Posted by KrigTheViking
    Ro: SLE. The most obvious typing of the episode, I think. Impulsive, aggressive, rebels against authority, doesn't like sitting and doing nothing. Her Aggressor romantic style is clearly shown in this episode.
    Oh no, please don't type people by Gulenko's romantic styles. Being a rebel is also a quality of LIIs...

    Quote Originally Posted by KrigTheViking
    Worf: I think he's LSI. Se is obvious, see above.
    I'm constantly surprised what characters are typed as LSI. If jxrtes types Picard and Crusher as LSI while Krig types Worf as LSI - does that mean that Picard, Crusher and Worf are the same type?
    Last edited by JohnDo; 08-08-2010 at 03:02 PM.

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    Picard's vulnerability to Ne is in how he always dismisses input that is too theoretical and speculative and asks his crew to get to the point on issues. All those cases in which he gets on the brink of saying "shut up, data!" are perfect examples of it.

    Every time he does "use" NeTi ish advice is when its compactly reduced to a statement on what will happen and what can be done with it. Once they're there, all he ever responds is along the lines of "make it so".

    Picard's most defining traits are his decisiveness and responsibility. The philosophical side, which is admittedly there, is no less Ne valuing than Ni valuing, and is just a side-trait of his to boot.

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    I keep reading the thread title as "every socialist..."

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    1.) Picard and Crusher are definitely intuitive. Both are researchers with a lot of unusual ideas. I find it hard to believe that anyone could see them as Ne-vulnerable...
    Crusher is someone I can see as LII. One of the more dominant kinds.

    2.) How could Worf and La Forge be ethical types?! They appear to be clearly logical to me. Chief Engineer and Security Chief, not at all interested in ethical problems and hardly ever talk about ethics...
    La Forge is a very sensitive guy. Sort of a typical overly sensitive guy / pushover too, so logical PoLR makes a ton of sense. A lot of what he does in private is try to solve relationship issues, find love, etc.

    Worf is definitely ethical, maybe not so much in that episode. His inner conflicts throughout the series are about being torn between two loyalties, two sets of values. That's .

    - loyalty to the federation vs. loyalty to the empire
    - his duty to his human values vs. his duty to his Klingon roots
    And more.

    He always chooses his own system of personal ethics and honor over what that others expect from him. Makes a ton of enemies by decisively sticking to his own system of values.

    3.) Riker and Troi are rather introverts but maybe they were supposed to be extraverts in the first episodes. There might be a type change from ENFj to INFj for Troi and ESTj to INFj for Riker. Just watch some of the earlier and later episodes...
    Troi certainly could be an introvert, but Riker is a true extrovert in every sense of the word. Socially, energy-wise, high presence in the moment, everything.

    4.) Ensign Ro is tricky. She might look like an SLE in this episode but no, she is LII without a doubt...
    I don't see why. She's very impulsive, hot-headed, undisciplined and unprincipled.
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    Some more guesses:

    Gene Roddenberry: ESE

    Sarek: LII

    Lwaxana Troi: EIE

    O'brien: SLI

    Keiko (O'brien's wife): LSE (?)

    Dr. Pulaski: harpy witch / LIE

    Any takers ?
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    Picard
    Jean-Luc Picard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    According to this article, Roddenberry originally based the character on Horatio Hornblower.

    Described as "unhappy and lonely", Hornblower's chief characteristics are not so much his courage and skilled seamanship as his intense reserve, introspection and self-doubt. Despite numerous personal feats of extraordinary skill and cunning, he belittles his achievements by numerous rationalizations, remembering only his fears. He consistently ignores or is unaware of the admiration with which he is held by his fellow sailors.
    He regards himself as cowardly, dishonest, and, at times, disloyal—never crediting his ability to persevere, think rapidly, organize, or cut to the nub of a matter. His sense of duty, hard work, and drive to succeed make these imagined negative characteristics undetectable by everyone but him, and being introspective, he obsesses over petty failures to reinforce his poor self image. His introverted nature continually isolates him from the people around him, including his closest friend, William Bush, and his wives never fully understand him. He is guarded with nearly everyone and reticent to the point of giving offense, unless the matter is the business of discharging his duty as a King's officer, in which case he is clear, decisive, and almost loquacious.
    He suffers from chronic seasickness, especially at the start of his voyages. As a midshipman, he was once sick at the sheltered harbor at Spithead, the embarrassing rumour of which follows him throughout his career. A voracious reader, he can discourse on both contemporary and classical literature. His skill at mathematics makes him both an adept navigator and an extremely talented whist player. He uses his ability at whist to supplement his income during periods of inactivity in the naval service.
    He is tone-deaf and finds music an incomprehensible irritant (in a scene in Hotspur he is unable to tell the British national anthem). He is philosophically opposed to flogging and capital punishment, in many cases when called for by the Articles of War, yet as Captain and Lieutenant had to call men to account knowing that such harshness would be the result. Hornblower possesses a hyper-developed sense of duty, yet on occasion he is able to set it aside for his more humane concerns, to the extent that, in Hornblower and the Hotspur, he contrives an escape for his personal steward who would otherwise have been hanged for striking a superior officer.
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    Roddenberry originally based the character on Horatio Hornblower.
    The creator's initial ideas and the final result don't necessarily match. In the end, the character is influenced to a far greater degree by Patrick Steward's personality than by any ideas Roddenberry might have had about him.

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    Just something to note about the Hornblower thing... when they present the character to the audience that's different than how the character is himself. From the Hornblower thing jxrtes posted it looks like the crew (and the audience) is supposed to see the captain as admirable, resource, brave, quick thinking, organized.... but the captain himself is unsure and in doubt, introspective, etc... Lol but like a badass he doesn't show it... <--- lol last part doesn't have anything to do with socionics, I just felt it needed to be said. Anyways that may affect the typings, the division between seeing the character for how he is rather than the image he is portraying to the crew in order to keep things calm on the surface. I haven't watched enough Piccard to type him...

    have fun, cheers, etc...

    Btw that Hornblower thing sounds very e4w3 or e3w4, about self doubting, introspection but wanting success, having a position of status. Probably a 6w5 for head triad. Then likely 8 or 1 for instinct depending on how he acts, I'm guessing e1 for gut triad, since his char seems perfectionistic, dutiful, objective, but humane in extreme circumstances.

    e3w4 - 6 -1 ?

  35. #35
    The Iniquitous inumbra's Avatar
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    Default my tentative opinions

    picard - ESI, though I can understand LSI

    riker - SEE, as much as I'd like to toss him in LIE, I just don't think his Te is very good, but there is something distinctly "rational" about him to me

    data - I don't really see him as that typeable. I think NT introvert is apparent but I would probably only go so far as some sort of LII/ILI hybrid or something. actually I could even see lumping SLI into that as well.

    laforge - Alpha extrovert... I'm fine with ILE or ESE... I would really prefer ESE except for his obvious social ineptitude. He is though a fountain of positive enthusiasm and I can see the Ne sort of idea generation in his solving of engineering problems. (I find IEI a rather intriguing suggestion, but I can't really get myself to agree with it... EIE would make more sense than IEI, but I still prefer Alpha)

    dr. crusher - EII

    wesley crusher - LII

    worf - SLE though I can understand LSI and I actually sort of go back and forth on that

    ensign ro - I had been thinking about LIE, but the SLE suggestion is interesting and maybe Krig is right

    deanna troi - I like IEI

    lwaxana troi - Fe leading... she seems more EIE to me in some episodes and more ESE in others and I can see how EIE is probably more likely than ESE but still I like to hang onto the ESE option. I think that her relationship with deanna works well with her being Fe leading and deanna being IEI because I sort of see deanna as calling her on her over-the-top use of Fe as deanna sees it. the relationship looks kind of like supervision to me almost, although lwaxana doesn't seem to feel inadequate about it so maybe mirror is better.

    miles o'brien - SLI

    keiko o'brien - maybe EII or SEI... I'm really not sure about her\

    Q - ILE (I really like this for Q)

    guinan and pulaski - I haven't really ever thought about their types and I don't have an immediate opinion... neither really stands out to me as a type... probably with pulaski it's more that I don't care about her character and with guinan it's probably that she's the "infinitely old and wise" character and then I just start seeing her as that and nothing else... I can understand the IEI idea though... I would have to think about it more, which I'm probably not going to.
    Last edited by inumbra; 08-09-2010 at 03:53 PM.

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