Is quadra progression dangerous?

[tcaudilllg]

From what I've heard, beta quadra dominance in a culture basically means civil war. I am growing concerned that we are moving from a gamma or delta phase to a beta phase, due to the increasing prevalence of apathy. This in turn is creating antipathy, which is the herald of a new phase of beta activity.

If we are in the process of moving to a beta stage, can it be stopped and how?

[xerx]

You can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs.

[stanprollyright]

From what I've heard, beta quadra dominance in a culture basically means civil war. I am growing concerned that we are moving from a gamma or delta phase to a beta phase, due to the increasing prevalence of apathy. This in turn is creating antipathy, which is the herald of a new phase of beta activity.

If we are in the process of moving to a beta stage, can it be stopped and how?

In literature and movies beta is often war, but in real life a beta phase is simply the point where the conflict becomes clearest and the populace is divided and united into opposing groups with opposing agendas, like, say, political parties. One side will eventually win out, but this doesn't have to be violent at all.

[Airman]

This mass upheaval which will be civil war is going to take some time more...maybe 20 years or even more. So to speak of that is kind of masturbating but yes I think we are entering a Beta phase and conflicts are about to begin and have already begun heavily in some areas of the globe and this is going to spread slowly until almost the entire globe is covered with armed conflicts.

Now there´s an important question more important than 'can we stop it' in my view... it is: would not conflicts be good, like the pains of a mother giving birth to a child. For the new to be born the old must be DESTROYED.

This reminds me of Red Hot Chili Peppers´ Californication song: "Destruction leads to a very rough road but it also breeds creation".

[Creepy-male]

I don't think an accurate model of a culture is associating one quadra to it... a much better model is of a network with certain lines of communication, lanes, or wires from which intra-quadra information travels. Of course these lines of communication are un-official.

I think rebellions are not the result of beta quadras become prevalent in society but from this underground network of betas becoming displeased with the current state of society. Usually it comes from betas being put into submission, rather than from them gaining dominance. A dominant beta system causes an outcry form deltas in order to restore social balance. Deltas of course are likely to deal with a beta uprising different than betas are likely to deal with a delta uprising.

A healthy beta society is one in which their is a niche for artistic expression and the ability to act on one's passions. When a society is censored both in expression and action and their is little room to let loose one's desires/passions... usually betas become resentful.

The American Revolution to me seems Alpha. The French Revolution to me seems Beta.

[stanprollyright]

I think rebellions are not the result of beta quadras become prevalent in society but from this underground network of betas becoming displeased with the current state of society. Usually it comes from betas being put into submission, rather than from them gaining dominance. A dominant beta system causes an outcry form deltas in order to restore social balance. Deltas of course are likely to deal with a beta uprising different than betas are likely to deal with a delta uprising.

A healthy beta society is one in which their is a niche for artistic expression and the ability to act on one's passions. When a society is censored both in expression and action and their is little room to let loose one's desires/passions... usually betas become resentful.

The American Revolution to me seems Alpha. The French Revolution to me seems Beta.

Quadra progression isn't about the people who participate, it's about the quadra values manifested in the time period itself, as abstract as that may be.

Revolution, by its very nature, is beta, because it involves a clear-cut conflict (Se) between the proletariat and bourgeoisie, based on the proletariat's belief in their ideological freedoms (Fe/Ti) and the desire to implement a more ideal regime (Ni) that favors those freedoms. Revolution occurs when the Fe/Ti ideology becomes more important to the proletariat than practical costs of the violence (devalued Fi/Te).

[Marie84]

Quadra progression isn't about the people who participate, it's about the quadra values manifested in the time period itself, as abstract as that may be.

Revolution, by its very nature, is beta, because it involves a clear-cut conflict (Se) between the proletariat and bourgeoisie, based on the proletariat's belief in their ideological freedoms (Fe/Ti) and the desire to implement a more ideal regime (Ni) that favors those freedoms. Revolution occurs when the Fe/Ti ideology becomes more important to the proletariat than practical costs of the violence (devalued Fi/Te).

It's possible that Alpha's often plant the seeds for revolutions, though. If we're taking the quadra cycle seriously it's Alpha->Beta->Gamma->Delta->Alpha, etc. That being, Alpha's export new ideas, theories, possibilities, societal concepts where than Betas take this new output and filter it into ideologies that can be implemented. I agree that this isn't always done violently.
For instance, I think the civil rights movement was largely coordinated by Betas. People from other quadras probably went about this too passively to have the impact it needed to work on a grand societal scale

[stanprollyright]

It's possible that Alpha's often plant the seeds for revolutions, though. If we're taking the quadra cycle seriously it's Alpha->Beta->Gamma->Delta->Alpha, etc. That being, Alpha's export new ideas, theories, possibilities, societal concepts where than Betas take this new output and filter it into ideologies that can be implemented. I agree that this isn't always done violently.
For instance, I think the civil rights movement was largely coordinated by Betas. People from other quadras probably went about this too passively to have the impact it needed to work on a grand societal scale

That's quadra progression in a nutshell, yes. It also goes the opposite way, where delta stability begins to collapse, gamma quick-fixes are employed, but ultimately aren't enough, so radical beta tactics are needed. WWII is a good example.

[Creepy-male]

Quadra progression isn't about the people who participate, it's about the quadra values manifested in the time period itself, as abstract as that may be.

Lol I was just proposing a different model... but essentially what your doing here is attributing a type to the "zeitgeist" [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeitgeist]Zeitgeist - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame].

I'm not too interested in this practice so I'll leave the thread and just read what others write.

[Creepy-male]

BTW, the French Revolution is a perfect exposition of the α->β cusp IMO. Everyone owes it themselves to read about this history—not only because it was a fascinating bloodbath in and of itself, but also because of its relevance to contemporary times.

What type do you think napoleon is... this works really really nicely if napoleon is ENTj, as this would mean gamma emerges from beta.

also it seems to me.... classical/antiquity/early rome (alpha) - late roman empire/dark ages (beta) - early medevial / feudalism (gamma) - late medevial (delta) - rennisance/enlightenment (alpha) - romanicism (beta) - modernism (gamma) - information age/post-modernism (delta) -> likely if I had to predict based on this pattern the information age will bring about an alpha era of new discovery/technology utilizing the advanced networking capabilities of the information age

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[tcaudilllg]

Actually it would seem to me that the ETs and ITs are drawing upon alpha NT at the general expense of both beta, delta NF, and probably even alpha. Gamma SF appears to be on a high, because beta ST appears to be distracted towards it. Thanks to this distraction, beta NF is losing its edge against ET/IT injustice.

Though I do assert that the history of world conflict has largely been an eternal battle of β leaders vs. δ leaders."

Exactly. And at the moment, beta is losing.

[stanprollyright]

also it seems to me.... classical/antiquity/early rome (alpha) - late roman empire/dark ages (beta) - early medevial / feudalism (gamma) - late medevial (delta) - rennisance/enlightenment (alpha) - romanicism (beta) - modernism (gamma) - information age/post-modernism (delta) -> likely if I had to predict based on this pattern the information age will bring about an alpha era of new discovery/technology utilizing the advanced networking capabilities of the information age

I'd say...Classical/antiquity/Roman Republic (alpha) - Roman Empire (delta) - Fall of Rome/dark ages/feudalism (gamma) - Crusades/Battle of Hastings (beta) - renaissance (alpha) - Reformation (beta) - Imperialism/industrial revolution (gamma)...etc.

[Creepy-male]

I'd say...Classical/antiquity/Roman Republic (alpha) - Roman Empire (delta) - Fall of Rome/dark ages/feudalism (gamma) - Crusades/Battle of Hastings (beta) - renaissance (alpha) - Reformation (beta) - Imperialism/industrial revolution (gamma)...etc.

Yea I'd say some of the aspects of the fall of rome/dark ages/feudalism were more beta... especially the the migration period of the germanic tribes and converting people to Christianity. I think by the time this transitioned to actual feudal societies it was established as gamma, I look at the development of feudal society by many of the germanic tribes as a beta to gamma shift. I could see crusades and such as beta... but I think that would almost seem to imply a shift from gamma to beta. Then beta to alpha again with the renaissance?

[stanprollyright]

Yeah, sometimes strange significant events make progression reverse itself, but I don't think it happens all that often. Also, this is basically subject to a shitload of interpretation because we're dealing with the entire world over hundreds of years that have a bunch of smaller progressions within them for each region and century, so it just depends on what events you look at and through whose point of view.

[Creepy-male]

Yeah, sometimes strange significant events make progression reverse itself, but I don't think it happens all that often. Also, this is basically subject to a shitload of interpretation because we're dealing with the entire world over hundreds of years that have a bunch of smaller progressions within them for each region and century, so it just depends on what events you look at and through whose point of view.

Yea I agree... It's almost as though their are epicycles to this. Of course once that is introduced... the concept of quadra progression becomes dangerously confusing. I think I'm content to stop there.

[Marie84]

That's quadra progression in a nutshell, yes. It also goes the opposite way, where delta stability begins to collapse, gamma quick-fixes are employed, but ultimately aren't enough, so radical beta tactics are needed. WWII is a good example.

yeah

[stanprollyright]

If anything, I'd say the Renaissance was a γ phase, which marked coming out the β abyss of the Dark Ages.

The Renaissance was so Alpha...new ideas, artistic expression. And I don't think the Dark Ages were very beta at all, gamma rather: it was everyone struggling and acting practically in their own subjective self-interest. There weren't clear-cut conflicting sides or serious adherence to ideology. The beta phase that bridged them was the Crusades, where the entire Christian world united against the Muslims waving the religion flag.

But I don't know; it's really a pointless generalization. The transition from the so-called 'Dark Ages' to 'The Renaissance' was a more fluid and complex series of events in history than is often portrayed.

Well, yeah, we just came to that conclusion.

[stanprollyright]

All of this is such a coarsely generalized attribution that its hardly even worth mentioning. We can't condense entire centuries of culture and human history as being typified by a single quadra. Its cheap and irresponsible.

But you're still doing it.

It's fun. Intellectual masturbation.

[xerx]

My opinion is that quadra progression isn't a very good gauge of whole societies. But it may be useful in explaining micro-events like some office politics and some conflict that happens in small groups. Betas vs. Gammas hostility is a recurring theme in this place.

[Gilly]

Unfortunately for β, δ always curbstomps them in the long-run.

Well the thing is, Delta is sort of the quadra of the "long run," being representative of societal stability/stasis; in quadra progression, Delta is basically the phase where everything is going smoothly, minor modifications being made here and there, etc etc. Society as a well oiled machine.

...whereas Beta is essentially the burst of energy that comes along to fuck up "well-ordered society" when it becomes stagnant and in need of reform. Delta is "running smoothly," Alpha concocts plans for change, Beta breaks things up/sets the pieces in motion, Gamma stabilizes and initializes implementation, Delta runs it smoothly, ad infinitum.

So yeah, Delta always "wins," in the sense that they tend to hold ground, but Beta will always be back for more.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I've always considered Betas as the reformers/activists in society, yeah. The troublemakers that shout that the system is the problem, instead of using tools within the system to fix things.

[silverchris9]

This thread made me angry. Why are we acting like some quadra phases are inherently better than others? That's the fundamental lesson of socionics: not good, not bad, just different. Because conditions are constantly in flux (Ni), systems need radical change in order to survive. You do have to tear things to the ground and raze the remains sometimes. All the people in this thread who were complaining about a beta phase of quadra progression are like the people who refused to let trees that naturally require pruning via fire, and even are unable to reproduce without forest fires, catch on fire. But forests that burn occasionally live longer and are healthier. If you don't let the forest burn, it just results in a slow death. In fact, to continue this analogy, it is the act of holding back the beta "phase" of quadra progression that is the problem, not the phase itself, just as fires often get out of control precisely because people didn't let the fires happen, so there's this accumulation of underbrush that feeds the fire.

And the fire doesn't need any external control--it is self-regulating. You just set the blaze and it naturally calms down once it consumes what needed to be consumed, unless you mess up the cycle by not allowing it its natural rise and fall.

And now it's a meta-metaphor: beta is also that hand that comes in and changes what seems to be the "natural" cycle when conditions are such that the natural cycle no longer works. So beta will come in and change the natural way that forest fires work if conditions are such that any fire at all will result in a uncontrollable blaze.

That said, you don't want the world to be perpetually on fire.


Also, regarding the whole enterprise of viewing history through a quadra-progression lens, or "typing the zeitgeist" as it were--it's just a way of constructing a narrative about history. As long as you use it for what it is, one of many possible narratives about history, one of the ka-billion perspectives that are not the truth but help us reach it (by some mysterious means), it's fine. In fact, that's a good lesson for socionics as a whole: it's not the truth, just a means of reaching it.

The quadras, the types, the elements are all little split off pieces of Albion the complete man, when he shivered into fragments because human beings are too weak to view (much less incarnate) the archetype of man in its totality. Soon it'll be time to integrate the spheres. We've been timing their rotation and now, at a crucial moment, we're going to put the pieces we broke apart back together, at least for a beautiful second (before the good-minute goes).

[The Greeter]

A society made up of only one quadra just sounds awful to me.

[silverchris9]

The Renaissance was so Alpha...new ideas, artistic expression.

While the Renaissance might have been Alpha, I'd like to note that it is Ni, not Ne, that Jung says is concerned with the "internal images." And "deep" art is designed precisely to deal with the internal images. I think fundamental changes in the way we look at the world, which take a long time to manifest themselves in actual behavior, tend to be instigated by Ni-egos likes Shakespeare. By contrast, Ne-ego artists tend to give us a heterocosm to imagine, to make us think: look, it could be like this! without really persuading us to change the deep layers of our minds. On the other hand, this is gentler, less forceful. Ni says: THINK LIKE THIS, even if it does so subtly. Shakespeare more or less forces us to believe his characters are real people. Ne, on the other hand, is much gentler. It tends to present an alternative, but you aren't obligated to believe in the alternative, you can just sort of be entertained by it, a good yarn, a fascinating story. So, much of what we think of as "artistic" (as determined by those bunch of Beta revolutionaries, the Romantics) is the sort of "deep" change or "deep" originality that Ni is good at.

By the way, I put scarequotes around the word "deep" to show that I recognize that deep has a value judgment attached to it which I don't really mean to attach to this issue. I recognize that Ni just seems "deep" (with the accompanying positive value judgment) to me because I'm an Ni-valuer. However, I do think that in a value-neutral context, depth seems to apply to Ni while breadth seems to apply to Ne. Harry Potter, for instance, seems to be a story of breadth, the expansiveness of an imaginative world, an issue of how many things can we touch on, rather than of depth, the question of, how deep into my subconscious assumptions/beliefs/internal images/soul can I go with this imaginative work. I think George Eliot's Middlemarch is a perfect marriage of depth and breadth in a literary work.

And I don't think the Dark Ages were very beta at all, gamma rather: it was everyone struggling and acting practically in their own subjective self-interest. There weren't clear-cut conflicting sides or serious adherence to ideology. The beta phase that bridged them was the Crusades, where the entire Christian world united against the Muslims waving the religion flag.

And for all the evil the Crusades did, they also preserved the Christian world, paving the way for what we know of as the Western World today. If Charles Martel had never expelled the Muslims from Spain (and accordingly the threat of Muslim invasion from Europe), people never would have been comfortable and secure enough to begin the kind of exploration and non-practical sort of actions that led to the Renaissance; they would have been worried about getting their heads chopped off. I don't have an opinion about the Dark Ages, except to say that they weren't all that dark. Just because Europe flourished more in the Roman period, doesn't mean the world was in a Dark Age, and doesn't mean that nothing positive happened in Europe between 400 and 1200 a.d..

[silverchris9]

Not sure if you were including me in this indictment or not. But just in case this wasn't clear: I wasn't making attributions that any of the quadra phases (nor any quadra itself) are somehow inherently 'good' or 'bad'. They simply are what they are; nothing more, nothing less. Tagging value judgments on any of it would be senseless IMO, in the same vein as judging a benign slab of rock. Its not good or bad, it's just there.

Well... some of the things you said did sound awfully value judgment-y (like about my quadra getting curb-stomped ). But I said that it was the thread rather than the people on purpose: I skimmed the thread and keyed on the parts I found most irritating, rather than getting a complete picture of individuals' opinion. I suppose even tcaud's original question isn't really value-related. Of course quadra progression is dangerous. Any change of energy/state is dangerous. In fact, a change in energy that happens too rapidly is called an explosion. But the idea that somehow there's this evil "beta phase" that needs to be stopped is, imo, ludicrous.

Agreed on everything you said though.

Haha… and this would be the point where β vs. γ dissonance typically foments and I start to get real dubious of what you guys would be trying to claim

Yeah, that is something that I knew would only make sense in my head. That conclusion bubbled up in my brain too fast for me to really understand the steps that make it make sense, so I just sorta said it without it making sense.

Yeah, I understand this. I'm just wanting to see a more granular view of this history. Because I suspect that within the mosaic of specific movements, trends, localities, people, and events comprising the amalgam of history otherwise known as the Renaissance, we'd see a pretty rich diversification of quadra influences availing themselves at various points of time and place. And I think that would be pretty fucking interesting to see.

Totally agreed. The Renaissance covers like 200+ years of history if we're including the northern renaissance, and of course different quadras and individuals from different quadras played major roles in the Renaissance in different times and different places. That's what I like about quadra progression. As long as you don't act like it's the whole truth, it can be used on just about any timescale to yield some sort of benefit, although I suppose the benefit is inversely related to timescale, at least until you get super minute like second-by-second at which point it becomes utterly useless.

Hmm, I don't know. I actually tend to see each quadra as being more or less self-sufficient. I'm not hard to please really and I generally like most people I meet well enough… but holy shit does being around my own quadra definitely makes life mucho easier overall lol. No temperamental miscommunications, no weird interpersonal hang-ups… things just go far more smoothly in a very big way.

Yeah. That was a bit of... of I don't know what, of poetic-ness. In reality, it's equally true, imo, to see individual quadras or even individual types are complete and as incomplete. I'm going to touch on that a tiny bit in my next blog entry, which I will probably finish tonight instead of getting sufficient sleep. Agreed about own quadra. If I could just roll with betas it would just make life easier, more natural, more flow-y.

[stanprollyright]

While the Renaissance might have been Alpha, I'd like to note that it is Ni, not Ne, that Jung says is concerned with the "internal images." And "deep" art is designed precisely to deal with the internal images. I think fundamental changes in the way we look at the world, which take a long time to manifest themselves in actual behavior, tend to be instigated by Ni-egos likes Shakespeare. By contrast, Ne-ego artists tend to give us a heterocosm to imagine, to make us think: look, it could be like this! without really persuading us to change the deep layers of our minds. On the other hand, this is gentler, less forceful. Ni says: THINK LIKE THIS, even if it does so subtly. Shakespeare more or less forces us to believe his characters are real people. Ne, on the other hand, is much gentler. It tends to present an alternative, but you aren't obligated to believe in the alternative, you can just sort of be entertained by it, a good yarn, a fascinating story. So, much of what we think of as "artistic" (as determined by those bunch of Beta revolutionaries, the Romantics) is the sort of "deep" change or "deep" originality that Ni is good at.

The way I view the Renaissance is less about depth and purpose, more about an appreciation for aesthetics, art for art's sake, ideas for the sake of having something new. Basically, my subjective impression of that particular zeitgeist lends itself better to alpha than beta.

And for all the evil the Crusades did, they also preserved the Christian world, paving the way for what we know of as the Western World today. If Charles Martel had never expelled the Muslims from Spain (and accordingly the threat of Muslim invasion from Europe), people never would have been comfortable and secure enough to begin the kind of exploration and non-practical sort of actions that led to the Renaissance; they would have been worried about getting their heads chopped off. I don't have an opinion about the Dark Ages, except to say that they weren't all that dark. Just because Europe flourished more in the Roman period, doesn't mean the world was in a Dark Age, and doesn't mean that nothing positive happened in Europe between 400 and 1200 a.d..

This thread made me angry. Why are we acting like some quadra phases are inherently better than others? That's the fundamental lesson of socionics: not good, not bad, just different. Because conditions are constantly in flux (Ni), systems need radical change in order to survive. You do have to tear things to the ground and raze the remains sometimes. All the people in this thread who were complaining about a beta phase of quadra progression are like the people who refused to let trees that naturally require pruning via fire, and even are unable to reproduce without forest fires, catch on fire. But forests that burn occasionally live longer and are healthier. If you don't let the forest burn, it just results in a slow death. In fact, to continue this analogy, it is the act of holding back the beta "phase" of quadra progression that is the problem, not the phase itself, just as fires often get out of control precisely because people didn't let the fires happen, so there's this accumulation of underbrush that feeds the fire.

I agree with all of this completely.