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Thread: Se vs Si

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    Default Se vs. Si

    Se vs. Si:

    Se: Sudden, Worse Tempo, Strong, Pure, Simple, Clear, Rhythm, Stand Out, Higher highs/Lower lows

    Si: Smooth, Better Tempo, Balanced, Varied, Complex, Colorful, Harmony, Blend In, Regular attunement

    Se can be characterized by a raw separation of phenomenon, devoid of its relationship with all other materials, except what it seeks to be paired with romantically (Ni dual-seeking). This phenomenon, while it can be objectively observed in a quite complex environment, is quite elemental in actuality.

    Si, in contrast, seeks a greater harmony with its relationship to its environment and so it blends itself in with every function, and every other facet of reality. (and scientifically there is probably no way really to separate any material form from its functional counterpart)

    This is why, INFp and ESTp types are more likely to be ‘romantics’ and find that one special thing that is cut aside from the world… in a pure form idealistically, whereas types like ENTp and ISFp need a better base in the ‘real world.’ This sense of romance doesn’t even have to be another person really, but it just shows how technically ‘separate’ and ‘removed’ Se/Ni is, compared to Si/Ne. It’s in everything the Se/Ni valuer does.

    What is strange about INFp/ESTps to other people, is how well you have to treat them emotionally compared to other people, just so they will do what other types perceive as basic things in life; those sort of things that they think make everybody feel connected. As long as they feel that they found what they were looking for idealistically, they really have no issues doing the ‘real world’ things that people want them to do, but if this is somehow not being received well, they will just go off to the side and create their own way until they are better listened to. But if you do understand this, then you can manipulate the Se/Ni valuer to do what you want even if you are not a Se/Ni valuer – and very intelligent narcissists and people high up in society already know this anyway, of course.

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    I´m a narcissist, you called me one, so if I´m very intelligent I know this already lol. And yes I think I get what you mean.

    But anyway I see that Si relates to comfort and such things as physical touching, hugging, etc, in a pure sensory form, are Si, while they may also be Fi.

    So I think what you call romantism must be understood in this light. To me the greater romantics are the ones who sleep holding their dear in their arms and wake up and just look at them and smell their necks and feel their skin and kiss their necks and reassuringly - sometimes to the point of being inconvenient - embrace the partner even closer tightly to his/her own naked body or half naked, feeling the skin contact as something very pleasurable and viewing the physical embrace as protecting and loving. I think this probably has to do with Caregiver behaviour anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Airborne View Post
    I´m a narcissist, you called me one, so if I´m very intelligent I know this already lol. And yes I think I get what you mean.

    But anyway I see that Si relates to comfort and such things as physical touching, hugging, etc, in a pure sensory form, are Si, while they may also be Fi.
    So I think what you call romantism must be understood in this light. To me the greater romantics are the ones who sleep holding their dear in their arms and wake up and just look at them and smell their necks and feel their skin and kiss their necks and reassuringly - sometimes to the point of being inconvenient - embrace the partner even closer tightly to his/her own naked body or half naked, feeling the skin contact as something very pleasurable and viewing the physical embrace as protecting and loving. I think this probably has to do with Caregiver behaviour anyway.
    OH YES

    I get really bad head aches and depressed when I don't get enough Si. I snuggle against people in expectation of them to rub cheeks with me. Squirl kisses, or just little touches throughout the day is really nice. ....ummm

    I can be a kitten that way, meow.
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 07-24-2010 at 12:44 AM.

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    Your DNA is mine. Mediator Kam's Avatar
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    lol squirrel kisses.
    D-SEI 9w1

    This is me and my dual being scientific together

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    This is why, INFp and ESTp types are more likely to be ‘romantics’ and find that one special thing that is cut aside from the world… in a pure form idealistically, whereas types like ENTp and ISFp need a better base in the ‘real world.’ This sense of romance doesn’t even have to be another person really, but it just shows how technically ‘separate’ and ‘removed’ Se/Ni is, compared to Si/Ne. It’s in everything the Se/Ni valuer does.

    What is strange about INFp/ESTps to other people, is how well you have to treat them emotionally compared to other people, just so they will do what other types perceive as basic things in life; those sort of things that they think make everybody feel connected. As long as they feel that they found what they were looking for idealistically, they really have no issues doing the ‘real world’ things that people want them to do, but if this is somehow not being received well, they will just go off to the side and create their own way until they are better listened to. But if you do understand this, then you can manipulate the Se/Ni valuer to do what you want even if you are not a Se/Ni valuer – and very intelligent narcissists and people high up in society already know this anyway, of course.
    No offense but hear I think your describe the INFp... the ESTp is seeking after this unconsciously but doesn't produce/generate/have it. They want to get that from INFps.

    Se isn't so detached and romantic... its very objective and realistic. But it's not like scientifically objective with a lot of formal logic and what not, its the sort of "It is what it is" thing. Se people see reality just exactly like it is right here and now... that ball is red... they don't care if it could be blue... its red and that's how it is. That's , its very matter of fact.

    Se-leading types are probably the most keenly aware of reality as it is now. The ESTp has creative Ti, which usually means they are the type to be aware of reality and they know how to work with systems. This mentally complements the INFp because they have a Ti-HA, and the ESTp can help them work the system to accomplish their goals.

    Lets look at the ESTp and INFp...

    INFp...
    + Ego -- The Ni enables them to see the big picture, see how the dominoes fall into place, see the big picture... since they are creative Fe... usually these "dominoes" which fall into place are Fe info. They look at all the outward emotional expressions of things and people and see how this all fits together. This is what makes them romantic, compassionate, etc.... They have a global portrait of their feelings and the feelings of other people at large. The problem is, such a global feeling viewpoint gives them little time to consider more sensory and logical information. In particular they have strong desires and know what it is they want because they have a global viewpoint, but they are unable to do the required things to accomplish this. INFps will find themselves thinking, if only the system was setup differently, I would be able to accomplish my goals. They are therefore very resentful towards logical systems in a way and have a hidden agenda to influence these system in order to achieve their goals through Se... however the INFp is not likely to actually involve themselves with this, they are likely to go back to there dreamy romantic emo state of Ni with creative Fe.

    ESTp....
    + -- The Se enables them to be quickly aware of what is happening as it is. Usually this observation is supplied by a creative function, in the ESTp that is Ti. So to them they are very aware of how logical systems affect external reality. The system itself is of little importance, the result of what its consequences are is. Generally enough observation into this gives them an awareness of how to work the system to accomplish their goals. It gives them an awareness of what is required to fulfill out an agenda. They are very skilled at this and can effectively "work" whatever logical system to accomplish their agenda. Even people... once they understand you as a logical system they can effectively operate with you socially. The problem with the ESTp is all of this awareness on logic and reality leaves them feeling lost and without anything really meaningful in there life. Sometimes they lack enthusiasm or feeling in what they are doing and therefore feel they must force or create feeling or enthusiasm in an environment... this being their Fe hidden agenda.

    The INFp + ESTp fit together so well because the ESTp helps the INFp accomplish things, and the INFp gives the ESTp the feeling like there is something meaningful. The relationship combines a very realistic cynical ST who is skilled at working the system with a very romantic idealistic NF who is emotionally aware at the global level. In return the NF gets their agenda accomplished and the ST gets some semblance of meaning.

    ENTps and ISFp have a totally different thing going on... Its very similar because the hidden agendas are the same... but they are concerned with and ... Ne is about possibilities and uniqueness and Si about comfort, internal body sense, and sensation. This is what gives there relationship that alpha feel... because its quirky in an Ne way and comfortable in a Si way. The Ni/Se is more about the global picture and decisive action... Ne/Si is more laid back and childlike.

    In RPG terms...

    INFp = spellcaster with a more mystical/dreamy quality ( dominant, distant dreamy detached, sees things like a massive web/weave and works that weave)
    ENTp = spellcaster with a more cocky/roguish/witty/exploitive quality ( dominant, unique quirky odd, twists possibilities/potentials to be exploitive)
    ESTp = warrior/rogue with a decisive/smart/cocky hans soloish quality ( dominant... etc etc)
    ISFp = healer/druid/civilian with a comfortable/open/calm quality ( dominant... etc etc)

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    interesting Lobo. I wonder how would that transpose to the other Beta duals, ISTJ and ENFJ.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Airborne View Post
    interesting Lobo. I wonder how would that transpose to the other Beta duals, ISTJ and ENFJ.
    Lol this isn't lobo, its luciddreamz... its confusing for spanish speaking people.

    It's very much the same two functions the biggest difference is they are both rational rather than irrational. The ENFj's hidden agenda is to have a realistic impact (Se), while the ISTj's hidden agenda is to have an influence on peoples concept of the global picture and their internal beliefs (Ni). The ENFj's Fe is fueled by this larger picture (Ni) and the ISTj's systematic logical nature is fueled by decisive realistic impact (Se), so they both get the dual seeking element and fulfill each other's hidden agenda.

    It's really the same themes as beta irrationals... the thing is the beta rationals have a focus on different things and this slightly modifies their outward characteristics and needs.

    INFp = dreamy, melancholic, pensive, contemplative, romantic
    ENFj = enthusiastic, expressive, influential, charming, charismatic
    Beta NF -- Combines Outward Emotional Expression with a Global Interconnected Viewpoint

    ESTp = decisive, directive, realist, assertive
    ISTj = systematic, practical, procedural, matter of fact
    Beta ST -- Combines Systematic Logic with a Matter of Fact Realist Decisive Approach




    Beta Quadra Characteristics
    -----------------------------
    emotionality (outwardly clearly visible expression of emotions)
    thought processes (systematic logical constructs)
    in action (decisive and to the point)
    influenced beliefs (see how individual elements connect together to form a global picture)



    Beta Quadra Perspective
    -----------------------------
    Responds to emotionally (notices outwardly visible signs of emotions)
    Responds to logically (pays attention to logical systems)
    Responds to in reality (pays attention to the surface aspects of reality)
    Respond to in contemplation/imagination (pays attention to the cascade of consequences created by a single action)
    Last edited by male; 07-24-2010 at 05:13 AM.

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    somebody posted something awhile ago about internal and external, with a diagram. it was really good. anyway what that diagram left me with was a clearer understanding of how SLE/IEI vs SEI/ILE operate.

    SLE: totally externally oriented. kind of a void in his inner life.
    IEI: totally internally oriented. kind of a void in his external life.

    this is why they need each other. they are extreme people who need another extreme person to balance them out.

    SEI: balanced between internal and external.
    ILE: balanced between internal and external.

    they each need another balanced person so they don't get out of balance.

    ok so when i think of my relationship with infpman, it's a little bit out of balance in favor of internal, since i am half internal and he is 100% internal. i get frustrated because i want to seek adventures in the real world and he needs that special Se to bring him out of the space time continuum. he gets frustrated because my Se isn't strong or nuanced enough. i get frustrated because he doesn't notice when i'm out of balance...i have to make a huge display, then he picks up on it tries to do things that will make it better. but i have to say he doesn't have it and it's not enough.

    so we talk about these things....and try to help each other....and try to find help in other ways. it's a good thing we have the language even if we don't have the skill to do it.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    Se isn't so detached and romantic... its very objective and realistic. But it's not like scientifically objective with a lot of formal logic and what not, its the sort of "It is what it is" thing. Se people see reality just exactly like it is right here and now... that ball is red... they don't care if it could be blue... its red and that's how it is. That's , its very matter of fact.
    all of what you wrote was very good, but I especially agree with this stuff about Se.^^

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    yes there is more to Se than the stereotype. But stereotypes exist for a reason. And I know a few SLEs who fit that bill. There are other factors that affect how they come across: gender, culture, IQ, education, etc. My SLE sister-in-law is extremely sophisticated plus she's been dualized for 20 years now and she's almost a pure mix between IEI and SLE. It's amazing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    That stereotype is seen from outside. If you check how the Se-ego really thinks and feels, it is different. Se takes in both external and internal reality mainly through Se. It doesn't mean he can't be spiritual or have an internal life. Se isn't about seeing or hearing physical objects, like red balls. It's about understanding "socionics objects". An idea, a thought, a feeling, a spiritual experience - all these things are objects, too, in a Socionics sense. So while Ne-people understand what these experiences can be transformed into, Se-people understand the experience itself. I would say Se-people more than anyone can experience things in their true form. It means you could easily argue that Se-egos are MORE spiritual than most. But that wouldn't be accepted by people here, seeing Se-egos as these stupid bulls just moving around to manipulate people to please themselves.
    yeah that makes sense. And that's why Se-egos are refreshing to IEIs because they don't worry about what something may become or where it's going or what the implications are. It's like they can appreciate things for what they are right now. I have been surprised by their romanticism, but it doesn't come across that way. They remember events, significant places, exchanges, etc and those things hold meaning for them. But they aren't "romantic" in the head-in-the-clouds sense of the word.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    Lol this isn't lobo, its luciddreamz... its confusing for spanish speaking people.
    No, Lobo used to use the avatar of a wolf, this is what confused me. I don´t speak spanish as a mother tongue, I speak portuguese, which is very much unlike spanish. People who speak portuguese don´t understand spanish speaking people and vice versa, mainly because the languages separated and became more different over time, though they have a common origin, much like dutch and german, if you take dutch to be portuguese and german to be spanish, you have a fairly accurate comparison. Anyway,

    It's very much the same two functions the biggest difference is they are both rational rather than irrational. The ENFj's hidden agenda is to have a realistic impact (Se), while the ISTj's hidden agenda is to have an influence on peoples concept of the global picture and their internal beliefs (Ni). The ENFj's Fe is fueled by this larger picture (Ni) and the ISTj's systematic logical nature is fueled by decisive realistic impact (Se), so they both get the dual seeking element and fulfill each other's hidden agenda.
    Aren´t these HAs debatable? Se-HA is very clear to me in INFPs, they want to have an impact, realistic, sure, powerful, some sort of power. 'To have powerful impact on others' is how I would translate this HA from the INFPs I know. This is why they like so much shit like Psychoanalysis. They can spend their whole day 'impacting' their clients with their 'insights' which are seldom something good for the patient, as they tend to have a very sadistic vein and love to convince others that others have loads of problems which they don´t see, but the INFP sees and they better take care of these huge problems [inflict fear/psychological pain/sadism]. I know a young INFP who´s better than my aunt but still, she´s studying Psychology and has this same attitude of envy, because she´s envious of others, and thinks she´s pure shite, she has to point out to everyone their 'psychological problems'.

    Ni-HA has been equalled to 'believing', 'seeing a great purpose and meaning in life', 'spirituality' as far as I know. Not INFLUENCING OTHERS IN THEIR OWN BELIEFS... Where did you get this HA from, can you elaborate further on this?

    Beta Quadra Perspective
    -----------------------------
    Responds to emotionally (notices outwardly visible signs of emotions)
    Responds to logically (pays attention to logical systems)
    Responds to in reality (pays attention to the surface aspects of reality)
    Respond to in contemplation/imagination (pays attention to the cascade of consequences created by a single action)
    this chart is interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Airborne View Post
    Aren´t these HAs debatable? Se-HA is very clear to me in INFPs, they want to have an impact, realistic, sure, powerful, some sort of power. 'To have powerful impact on others' is how I would translate this HA from the INFPs I know.
    YES. I didn't even realize this about myself until I actually had a big impact on someone and I felt this strange sort of completion. Like this was the purpose of my life. Even though the impact I had on this other person, didn't mean anything for me externally. Still, knowing that I was the cause was profound.

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    is it just me or fruit flavored chewing gums actually harden much much faster than the herb flavored ones?
    unholy water sanguine addiction

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    YES. I didn't even realize this about myself until I actually had a big impact on someone and I felt this strange sort of completion. Like this was the purpose of my life. Even though the impact I had on this other person, didn't mean anything for me externally. Still, knowing that I was the cause was profound.
    Red, do you kind of like it or feel something you cannot label as a bad feeling when you tell people about how fucked up they are internally? Or how they have these issues which they have to solve, or in any way you kind of slightly inflict some bad feeling in them by using these emotionally clever methods?

    I have seen this methodology of sadism through the use of psychology in these 2 INFPs, that auntie I better keep away from and this girl who´s now 20 years old and we´re almost friends, she kind of respects me for seeing me drunk grabbing her and telling her I would love to fuck her, this type of caveman behavior often makes INFPs somewhat curious and excited about the man in question. But I deviated from the question, please answer if you can Redbaron.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Airborne View Post
    she kind of respects me for seeing me drunk grabbing her and telling her I would love to fuck her
    aren't you that guy who said he wanted to go to bhutan to be a nun and shit?
    unholy water sanguine addiction

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    Yeah, he would be a good nun. Definitely would visit church more often, yeah.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Lucid's post makes me hate it when egos try to talk about at length. Because they know jack shit about what it's Really Like.
    lol god, this is such a dumb viewpoint. You don't have to be strong or value a function to know what it is. Not everything has to be understood by personal experience... do psychologists need to be mentally deficient to understand mental disorders?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    They should go read my Charles Bukowski thread or something if they want to know. Or go read what any number of other egos actually say and speak about. Instead of mentally masturbating down their own throats for intellectual sustenance like they always do.

    "isn't detached and romantic" my ass. egos can be plenty idealistic and visionary. Ideas tend to matter to them a lot. You guys seriously have no clue lol.
    The problem is, if there is no intellectual sustenance... then how can you be certain that you've typed the person correctly as ego? I mean what is the measuring stick or standard you use to determine if something in reality is if you don't have an intellectual understanding... people don't have Se attached to their forehead, that is unless you spend too much time on socionics forums, then they really do have functions associated with them and you don't have to understand a thing. You just have to look up what "experts" tell you and then observe their characteristics, and you have essentially bullshit.

    Go back to economics and politics, where you can play the "theory is for mathematicians, this is the real world" card and everyone will really be impressed.

    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    That stereotype is seen from outside. If you check how the Se-ego really thinks and feels, it is different. Se takes in both external and internal reality mainly through Se. It doesn't mean he can't be spiritual or have an internal life. Se isn't about seeing or hearing physical objects, like red balls. It's about understanding "socionics objects". An idea, a thought, a feeling, a spiritual experience - all these things are objects, too, in a Socionics sense. So while Ne-people understand what these experiences can be transformed into, Se-people understand the experience itself. I would say Se-people more than anyone can experience things in their true form. It means you could easily argue that Se-egos are MORE spiritual than most. But that wouldn't be accepted by people here, seeing Se-egos as these stupid bulls just moving around to manipulate people to please themselves.
    Lol um of course its seen from the outside... how can you really know what an Se-ego thinks and feels and be certain? Besides measuring it from outside observation.

    Second the red ball thing your taking too seriously.. my illustrative point is Se-egos see the outward objective characteristics of reality. Like a ball being red... thats OBJECTIVE information that is clearly viewed from outside. The ball being soft... thats SUBJECTIVE information that is clearly viewed from ones internal sensations. Someone may think the ball isn't soft, but no one can disagree that the ball isn't red.

    Also stop whining that people here won't accept Se-ego are highly spiritual. I've heard no one argue against this idea, and if that's your axe to grind with my post, then your completely off mark.

    Lol I think claiming Se people to experience things in true form is a bit of a lofty claim. I don't think any type experiences things in a truer or more false form. They are merely different perspectives. All irrational functions are focused on observation without judgment weighed via thinking feeling... who is to say one observation is "truer" than another.... your post clearly shows bias to an agenda and not adherence to strict scientific objectivity. Personally I don't want your agenda of telling others how awesome and spiritual and divinely truth seeing ESTp's are in comparison of other types to interfere with a clear objective understanding.

    Your being defensive against me apparently claiming ESTp are stupid manipulative bulls.... which isn't my doing, your taking what little information I posted and twisting it into something negative and then reacting against that defensively.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    You can let a Se-ego write the description.
    How can your typing have any credibility if you don't know what an Se-ego looks like from the outside? Otherwise its like using the word in the definition.

    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    So you say only Se-egos can see a ball is red? Damn. I feel sorry for intuitives.
    Because that's what I literally said... I mean I remember saying an Se-ego sees the ball as red. I don't remember saying an Se-ego only sees the ball as red. Take a second to let that swirl around in your head and really take it in.

    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    It's why Se-egos can win any discussion, or fool anyone. They pick up on EVERYTHING you say and do, and have total "control" of the here and now. It's a complex function, not some simple "this is a red ball"-thing.
    Lol and once again more with the grandiose claims. I'm starting to think you've type yourself as an ESTp to feel better about yourself by attribute grandiose self-aggrandizing claims to yourself based on weak objective reasoning and not to really understand yourself as you are.

    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    I didn't talk about you. I never found you stupid. Quite the opposite. However, a lot of the things others here write about Se is so off the mark I totally get why nobody self-types sensors.
    This is more likely attributed to miscommunication between parties than it is a failure in understanding. Its the whole "its not what you know, its what you can show" thing. Right now, obviously your failure in interpreting my dialogue is apparent and therefore I'm not showing what I know effectively enough.

    The lesson for you however, is that you shouldn't make assumptions about what others know purely from their dialogue, especially when you seem to not do it proper justice. Which is essentially what you did.... talk about me. And why this is now become what it has. Stop panning for the moral high ground, and lets clear up our disagreement as equals on the same plane.


    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    I meant that they experience it directly. If you scream at a Se-ego, they feel physical pain. It is why they can react with violence.
    K ummm.... let me try what you did to me above.....

    lets see....

    um..... *clears throat*

    So you say only Se-egos react with violence to people screaming at them? Damn. I feel sorry for intuitives.

    ... see its not hard to straw-man argument your opponent...

    but I have to be sure to now make grandiose claims about my ability to "win" discussions. Lol. win discussions... hahahahh

    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    I agree.
    No you don't, your posts are checkered with bias. If you do agree it doesn't show.


    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    And your post showed poor understanding.

    and

    I didn't talk about you.

    Sure you didn't talk about me... I guess by my post you meant undescript entity number 2523626. Right....... you didn't talk about me one bit.... we are just idly chit chatting about random stuff and in now way are you trying to criticize my post.... that's not happening at all.... *waves arm like jedi mind trick*

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    You are defensive for no reason. I never attacked you. I tried to explain something about sensing that I think this community doesn't understand. If you already know what I write, then let others read it and understand too. If it was for you alone, I would have written it in a PM.
    *rolls eyes*... you are soo clueless its funny....

    In effect you are essentially saying "hey community, don't listen to this guys post, he is wrong.... this stuff here... its correct"

    This is a problem... if you were really as pure and virtuous and innocent as you try to frame yourself as being... you would have simply posted your explanation without reference to mine, and your actions would line up perfectly with your assumed motive.

    I understand of course, though you do not wish to take our discussion further... which is of course a reasonable course of action, but don't try to posture yourself like the innocent lamb here, if you criticized my post, I have the right to intellectually defend it... I'm not the aggressor here... I'm just defending my post. If you would have left me alone, I wouldn't have engaged you in dialogue. Now please leave this discussion and don't return until your ready to continue this dialogue. (by discussion I don't mean this thread, obviously you can continue to post in the forum... but don't bother me unless you wish to continue)
    Last edited by male; 07-24-2010 at 09:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Airborne View Post
    Red, do you kind of like it or feel something you cannot label as a bad feeling when you tell people about how fucked up they are internally? Or how they have these issues which they have to solve, or in any way you kind of slightly inflict some bad feeling in them by using these emotionally clever methods?
    The only time I talk to people about anything remotely serious like this is if they're a very good friend. And if they have a problem that I can see a possible solution to, I will kind of talk around it, using examples from my own life. And why would I feel badly about that when I'm trying to get them to THINK and to SEE what I see is going on. But again, I only do this with people with similar values and people who I know can handle the truth. Otherwise it's pointless. Many many people cannot handle honesty and would rather live a life of lies and head-in-the-sand avoidance. I don't waste time with them. (that's not to say I'm not friends with them! Only that I don't bother talking to them seriously about their issues. I keep things light)

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    The only time I talk to people about anything remotely serious like this is if they're a very good friend. And if they have a problem that I can see a possible solution to, I will kind of talk around it, using examples from my own life. And why would I feel badly about that when I'm trying to get them to THINK and to SEE what I see is going on. But again, I only do this with people with similar values and people who I know can handle the truth. Otherwise it's pointless. Many many people cannot handle honesty and would rather live a life of lies and head-in-the-sand avoidance. I don't waste time with them. (that's not to say I'm not friends with them! Only that I don't bother talking to them seriously about their issues. I keep things light)
    Hmm...I got it...so a person is either a 'mature, open, can-handle-truth' or a person who prefers to live life in total avoidance, a loser. Obviously whoever comes to tell you that he/she doesn´t think you should be saying that about his/her problems becomes immediately a loser. I´m getting to know better the INFP mentality. Interesting. In fact somewhat disgusting, because you think you see more than you do and you think you are more right than any human being can be in your attempts to 'solve' others´ psychological problems. You INFPs may become too proud of your Ego block combination of elements and thus start acting in a very arrogant manner which is after all, totally unwise. You end up doing lots of shit until you change ways. I will never forget that I had to tell this INFP aunt that I was never bisexual and that she was a pervert and a moron for thinking I was, and this proved my theory that Freud was a bisexual cocaine addict and I could apply the same rule to her, while she looked at me freezed, and my mother stood paralized also, then I told them to get in the car to drive her home. Fucked up cocaine addict psychoanalytical slut.

    Thanks for the reply Redbaron I like you, unlike my aunt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaknet View Post
    aren't you that guy who said he wanted to go to bhutan to be a nun and shit?
    I don´t remember having said that. And I don´t. I´m too attached to samsaric pleasures to live a life of full buddhist monastic discipline.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ananke View Post
    I honestly didn't target you. I am sorry I come off as a jerk, if I do.

    Please discuss Se with me instead.
    lol you don't come off as a jerk.... that's a completely different item.

    I'm just in "the debate" right now trying to defend my OP, it's not personal.

    But lets discuss Se, I'll post a response later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    ENTps and ISFp have a totally different thing going on... Its very similar because the hidden agendas are the same... but they are concerned with and ... Ne is about possibilities and uniqueness and Si about comfort, internal body sense, and sensation. This is what gives there relationship that alpha feel... because its quirky in an Ne way and comfortable in a Si way. The Ni/Se is more about the global picture and decisive action... Ne/Si is more laid back and childlike.
    That made me smile.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    Se vs. Si:

    Se: Sudden, Worse Tempo, Strong, Pure, Simple, Clear, Rhythm, Stand Out, Higher highs/Lower lows

    Si: Smooth, Better Tempo, Balanced, Varied, Complex, Colorful, Harmony, Blend In, Regular attunement
    Can't you say this about any extrovert / introvert pair of IEs?
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    Can't you say this about any extrovert / introvert pair of IEs?
    I would say dynamic/static pair. Wouldn't it be reversed for the Rational I/E pairs?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanks Arthur View Post
    I would say dynamic/static pair. Wouldn't it be reversed for the Rational I/E pairs?
    I don't think so, or else Fi > Fe when it comes to spontaneity, higher highs and lower lows.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    OH YES

    I get really bad head aches and depressed when I don't get enough Si. I snuggle against people in expectation of them to rub cheeks with me. Squirl kisses, or just little touches throughout the day is really nice. ....ummm

    I can be a kitten that way, meow.
    Dammit, I guess I fail at Si then.
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Airborne View Post
    Hmm...I got it...so a person is either a 'mature, open, can-handle-truth' or a person who prefers to live life in total avoidance, a loser. Obviously whoever comes to tell you that he/she doesn´t think you should be saying that about his/her problems becomes immediately a loser.
    lol, no you're not understanding me. Thing is, I can tell BEFORE I talk to the person, whether they're the type of person who will receive my comments well or not (and of course it's not always that black and white either. sometimes there are people who want help with certain topics but not with others). I've rarely (if ever) been in a situation where someone told me they didn't think I should be saying whatever about their problems. I mean, it's all about tact and working around the subject to begin with and feeling them out, if you don't know them that well. if you DO know them well, then you already know if they can handle your comments or not! For example, I know SLEs can take it. In fact, they eat it up. I've never said anything to an SLE that they took offense at. Which of course makes them completely rockin in my book because it means I can say whatever I want without editing! EIEs can also take it although they may or may not agree. IEIs can take it and they agree but they don't usually even need my help or comments because they already know and we laugh about it together.

    I´m getting to know better the INFP mentality. Interesting. In fact somewhat disgusting, because you think you see more than you do and you think you are more right than any human being can be in your attempts to 'solve' others´ psychological problems. You INFPs may become too proud of your Ego block combination of elements and thus start acting in a very arrogant manner which is after all, totally unwise. You end up doing lots of shit until you change ways. I will never forget that I had to tell this INFP aunt that I was never bisexual and that she was a pervert and a moron for thinking I was, and this proved my theory that Freud was a bisexual cocaine addict and I could apply the same rule to her, while she looked at me freezed, and my mother stood paralized also, then I told them to get in the car to drive her home. Fucked up cocaine addict psychoanalytical slut.
    lol I'm just not sure where you're getting this "disgusting arrogance" from. I'm sorry about your mixed up aunt but that doesn't say much about IEIs, imo.
    Thanks for the reply Redbaron I like you, unlike my aunt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubicon View Post
    Dammit, I guess I fail at Si then.
    No it doesn't. Your Si activates my Si. My Si can look like your Si.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    No it doesn't. Your Si activates my Si. My Si can look like your Si.
    Well I meant that my Si doesn't look like that. :-P I only know what to do when small children snuggle against me. lol
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubicon View Post
    Well I meant that my Si doesn't look like that. :-P I only know what to do when small children snuggle against me. lol
    What do you do?

    I said that because I wanted hugs...."oh honey, my head hurts, I think you should touch me."

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    lol, I guess I'm pretty cuddly.

    Maritsa, if you know how to make tasty things, I think we'd get along very well

    EDIT

    I think for Si bases, just look helpless/in pain or complain about things to solicit hugs and comfort from us. You need to be a bit more indirect, but you'll find we have radar for these things, so the message is unlikely to get lost

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    What do you do?.
    In the case of small children? Um, just put my arm around them I guess. If I know them that is. Otherwise, I'd think it was a bit weird.
    I said that because I wanted hugs...."oh honey, my head hurts, I think you should touch me."
    Lol. That sounds a bit creepy, but perhaps my dual would phrase it differently. I'd be more inclined to get to the bottom of why your head's hurting tbh.
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubicon View Post
    I'd be more inclined to get to the bottom of why your head's hurting tbh.
    And this too. I have a bad habit of automatically dispensing advise to just about every sort of physical problem from aesthetics to wellbeing without really thinking about it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanks Arthur View Post
    And this too. I have a bad habit of automatically dispensing advise to just about every sort of physical problem from aesthetics to wellbeing without really thinking about it
    My SEI friend does this too. It's funny how automatic it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    It's not a dumb viewpoint at all. Think of trying to describe a blue sky to someone who's never been aboveground and seen the sun. No matter how many words you use or how precisely you use them, you'll never be able to convey what its really like to actually see it. Abstract depictions are always a synthetic understanding; they can never substitute for the real understanding one can only get from direct, firsthand experience.

    With schizophrenia, you're conflating diagnosis with understanding. You can spot the symptoms of something without having to understand much about it. This is what psychiatrists/psychologists are trained in. They don't have to know the experiential reality of what schizophrenia is like to carry out their profession (though the good ones will try and attain, as much as is possible, an understanding of that experience nevertheless).

    Similarly, when it comes to types and info-elements—one can spot their symptoms from an external view and accurately identify them. But don't dare think you know what goes on in their heads, what their motives are, or how they experience reality. You don't and you never will for the most part. All you have are a few external cues allowing you to type them. Its only a limited surface view of that person, that's quite it.
    Yea its not a dumb viewpoint, but the I could do without the attacks, or possibly what I had perceived as such. Maybe you simply were saying that my writings on Se are less interesting than reading a post from an ESTp talking about personal experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    When I first got into Socionics, I read the intellectual descriptions. Then over time, I took the abstract understandings I'd acquired and collided them real-world experience. I observed other people, I talked to them, I interacted with them. I learned what fit, what didn't fit, and what was wholly incomplete in said descriptions. After awhile, the intellectual understandings became no longer necessary and a better, visceral understanding crystallized in their place. There's nothing deep or mysterious about this process, I'm sure you're familiar with it.
    Lol pretty much... but I'm still pre-occupied with the intellectual understanding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    I don't agree with regurgitating from "experts" either. But regurgitating one's own "logical derivations" is no different to me. It's essentially the same calibre of mistake.
    I only do that because it's like the foldable cup.... instead of me having to remember a bunch of little peices of information, I can just keep a small peice of information in mind and then expand it out later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    It is for mathematicians—actually no, I take that back. Because econometricians are an insult to mathematicians. Most real mathematicians will flat out tell you that applying mathematics to economics is utter bullshit. Logic is an arbitrary system of rules for deciding what's true vs. false. There are of course times you can make some reliable, useful approximations with it—i.e., in the hard sciences, which deal with characteristically simpler kinds of phenomena. But trying to force-fit the complexities of real-world economic activity into the facile, theoretical parameters of the closed-systems that econometricians play with, is an epic exercise in naivete and futility. Unfortunately for us, when it comes to matters of economics, these vaunted little math games they play at central banks and government policy centers, are costing the livelihoods of every person on the planet.
    Well personally I'm not saying mathematicians are better or that mathematicians are the kings of economics, and there ideas produce better judgments on the issues than econometricians.

    I was just saying that there can be more than one way to think about an issue. Most of my posts on socionics are likely to be very much like what you observed... especially in general discussion. If this doesn't interest you then that's fine, but I also want to make sure if I get criticized I can at least learn the way in which what I wrote was a false representation/model of reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    How in the fuck would they really know that when there's such a dearth of egos here in the 1st place? Some of you people have downright dehumanizing views of other types, on account of the grossly oversimplified understandings you carry around in your skulls about them.
    meh, I don't think I have a dehumanizing viewpoint. But I'd be interested in hearing if you think I do, because honestly I'm not trying to dehumanize ESTps and INFps... I have a very specific set of characters I've seen that I was thinking about when I wrote that. I was merely attempting to explain the nature of the interaction between ESTps and INFps as the ESTp is a realist who has unfilled idealism, and the INFp is an idealist who is unfilled in reality. When they fit together it means each of them fulfill each others unfulfilled part by merely being as they are. I don't feel like that's dehumanizing... actually I feel rather positive about that. I REALLY don't understand how merely making such an observation could have really disgusted you so heavily, how it relates to me being an ego.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    I agree with you 100% on this. Finally, something lol.
    Yea.... finally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Lol, interfering with a clear, objective understanding… ? Are you fucking joking? Statements like that just sound like a parody to me in the context of everything else you've been going on about this in thread haha.
    possibly... I always run into problems whenever I use the word objective/subjective in a post.

    I'm just saying, what I'm interested in is the theoretical principles which can be used to create a complete portrait of the ESTp.... I'm less interested in people's personal opinions/experiences/and so forth about ESTps.

    Facts and Opinions... lets try these words instead of Objective/Subjective.....

    I am interested in the facts concerning ESTps rather than peoples opinions concerning ESTps... at least in this context.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    What do you do?

    I said that because I wanted hugs...."oh honey, my head hurts, I think you should touch me."
    haha yea I can understand how that sounds a bit creepy. sounds like bad porn dialogue or something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rubicon View Post
    In the case of small children? Um, just put my arm around them I guess. If I know them that is. Otherwise, I'd think it was a bit weird.Lol. That sounds a bit creepy, but perhaps my dual would phrase it differently. I'd be more inclined to get to the bottom of why your head's hurting tbh.
    Uncle John: Come here Timmy, let uncle john touch you... you said your head hurt right? There's that's all better
    Timmy: *shivers neurotically and fearfully

    Lol I'd never do that to a kid.... in fact I'm probably too much on the other side of the coin... I purposefully don't like physical contact when there isn't this kind of intuitive understanding of permission... it makes me feel so much like a creep... even when other people touch me or accidently bump into me.
    Last edited by male; 07-25-2010 at 06:09 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    haha yea I can understand how that sounds a bit creepy. sounds like bad porn dialogue or something.
    It's the best cure for headaches.

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