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Thread: SEE vs EIE vs SLE vs ESE

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    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
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    Default SEE vs. EIE vs. SLE vs. ESE

    Help me differentiate between these three types. Whatever you can say that helps is helpful. (tautology).

    Specifically, I'm thinking about the issue of power struggles. SLEs and SEEs are both very alive to power dynamics, who's on top, where their place in the hierarchy is (although SLE will be more of a practical hierarchy of skills, and SEE will be more of a social hierarchy of personality dominance). EIEs also seem to be frequently engaged in power control. Two very popular examples are the character Effie in Dreamgirls ("And I Am Telling You I'm Not Going") and the character Medea in Euripides' Medea. They both engage in power struggles, but I think the difference is what is foregrounded and presented to others. I find Se-leading people are more directly volitional (like, "I want you to do this, I don't want you to do that"), whereas Fe-leading people are more explicitly using the anger, or sadness, or desire they are actively feeling in the moment to get their way. But with SEEs, this line is somewhat blurred. Even ESEs can be very demanding and commanding, but they do it in what seems to me to be a very emotional and very non-practical way. Anyway, those are my preliminary thoughts. Discuss, por favor.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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    The Soul Happy-er JWC3's Avatar
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    In my experience the best way to distinguish between an SEE and some beta type is simply to start shattering social norms around them. Most likely they will react negatively because IME it's the SEE's knowledge and ability to manipulate these norms that is the very center of their ability to manipulate and gain power over other people. Where as some beta type would most likely be more adept to say "Fuck other peoples opinions of me, That looks like fun."
    Easy Day

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    Imagine Timeless's Avatar
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    From the 2 ESEs and 2 SLEs I know...

    SLEs: Don't really give a fuck and are more outspoken.
    ESEs: Don't give a fuck to a degree.

    SLEs: Blunt in terms what is physically around them. I think they're more likely to comment on something about what your actions and what you're doing.
    ESEs: Blunt in terms if the emotions around them. I think they're more likely to comment on something about what your mood and what you're feeling.

    SLEs: Social tank. A "grounded" present moment vibe.
    ESEs: Social butterfly. A "upbeat" present moment vibe.

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    ESE = always nice to me. they're like beautiful greenhouse flowers.
    SEE = bad bad person. stay away from me you witches. sure they look good on the outside, but on the inside they're as ugly as one of the three stooges.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

  5. #5
    Creepy-female

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    Quote Originally Posted by JWC3 View Post
    In my experience the best way to distinguish between an SEE and some beta type is simply to start shattering social norms around them. Most likely they will react negatively because IME it's the SEE's knowledge and ability to manipulate these norms that is the very center of their ability to manipulate and gain power over other people. Where as some beta type would most likely be more adept to say "Fuck other peoples opinions of me, That looks like fun."
    Yeah, start swinging that ol' Fi-polr tyrannosaurus tail around and the shattering will come

    In my view it has little to do with social norms and more to do with the fact that Fi is motivated to act/behave/live in accordance with it's own subjective value system. This subjective value system often happens to align with some social norms, because social norms are often (not always) guidelines born out of the need to help people better cope with the other people that co-inhabit this world.

    In view of personal bonds, or of coping, or whatever situation you can think of, there are some things you just don't do to people. My Fe/Ti friends are constantly, albeit unconsciously, pushing the bounds of what I feel signifies a personal bond or close relationship. I'm argued out of my likes or dislikes, my point of view is undermined, and the signals I feel come with a close relationship are turned on their head. Alphas do this completely unconsciously, and Betas do it in a way I feel is half unconsciously and half they know what they're doing and they're happy to fuck with me. I'm not saying that they don't have personal bonds or don't maintain them, but the way they do it is confusing to me.

    I'm not sure of all the adjectives they think of me as but a few include, stick in the mud, close minded, dutiful..they tend to think of me as an anomaly to what they considered "normal" and think that I pursue my subjective values just to be ornery.

    But at the same time, they help me pursue a faster moving, more cutthroat (in the case of Beta), more open, "fun" social dynamic that I would have missed before, and I remind them of the values of solidity, of preferences, and when they want serious questions or something of the nature answered, they tend to gravitate to me as well. The former isn't natural for me but when you see the goodness of a person beyond functions it's something you want to come to grasp with, even at the expense of connecting in the slightly more dysfunctional way that opposing functions signify.

    I wanted to add that I don't feel the conflict of Ti/Fe with Alpha as much..Alphas don't seem to have the "agenda" I associate with Beta interaction, so the sometimes social disjointedness isn't as offensive because I feel it isn't directed in any focused or meaningful way and thus I can turn off the need to be wary of malicious intent. I think there's something to democracy communication as a whole that works better than some of my other quadra relations.

    Overall I don't really agree with your description of manipulation etc.. but I can see how that works for some Betas. I liked what ann wrote before about this:

    Quote Originally Posted by LokiVanguard
    I think that's called Bipolar.
    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    not really

    part of it is being ExFp
    part of it is just being human
    part of it is when the people around one's self is expecting..nay...demanding, that the person be upbeat and cheerful when in reality they aren't feeling that way at the moment, but the person doesn't want to cause conflict or bring others down
    part of it is not particularly wanting to share all of one's thoughts/emotions with the outside world
    part of it is because a person can feel both happy AND sad/mad/etc at the very same time....there are various things that can affect which actually might show up in outward behavior

    but mostly I would say that the changes, even sudden changes, would be even more noticeable in an ExFp. Other types and people do it, but for strong noticeability factor, I think ExFp would take the cake, lol.


    (we could also take in the observer's biases upon viewing the mood 'swings'. for example, an ixtj would likely consider it to be some kind of disorder that the exfp is showing; or a beta nf might consider it as the exfp is 'playing games', or 'acting', or 'intentionally changing behaviors for some known and directed purpose')
    I think her entire writing is very good but the last part relates more to what you are talking about. I find Betas in general more apt to assign motives in this kind of language because it's not in their perception that in ways, Fi/Te just...wants what it wants. I can't really consider these whole ulterior motive/gain power/manipulate people terms as accurate. Betas think in those ways, those are often terms Betas employ, that is SEE behavior seen through Betas trying to interpret Gamma motives. Which could be useful, given that silverchris is a Beta. But I wanted to add another perspective.
    Last edited by female; 07-20-2010 at 10:24 PM.

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    Blaze's Avatar
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    SEE: they are chaotic and zany. to me it looks like they take huge risks or something. but they don't see it that way. they work the relational grid constantly...this is where they get their groundedness and stability and it works for them. but materially, or logically....they're off. like they'll just move in with somebody, or re-locate geographically on what seems to me to be a whim. they don't see it as a whim though, since they can always connect relationally to the person they have in mind or to someone new. this prolly sounds kind of biased, i don't mean it that way, more just how i see it through my NeTi lens.

    SLE: they are more grounded. they respond to emotional expression more than produce feelings. usually you can't tell how they are feeling, they wear the ultimate poker face. usually they are doing something, working on something, manipulating something material. SLE's are quite fun...they'll think of interesting stuff to do, usually stuff that is either exciting or produces some kind of result. like my ex...he finds these worms and tells the kids tie a worm to your finger and stick the worm in the water, the fish will come and eat it. and they'll do that for 20 minutes. then he'll think of something else like that, where you do something and you get something to happen.

    ESE: ah activity partner. i can't say anything bad about them except for their disorganization. emotionally expressive and notice how you feel. they are like a warm ray of sunshine. usually they are smiling and paying attention to everybody in a light, caring type of way. when they become forceful, they are emotionally forceful not physically forceful. they are like butterflies socially. they have tons of friends but handle these friendships differently than SEE. they don't get stability from a grid of relationships, they are more in the middle of a lot of people whose emotional temperature they are constantly taking. they pay attention to how a lot of people feel as a gauge to what's going on in the world.

    EIE: dramatic is the main theme that comes to mind. they are usually trying to get something to happen or somebody to do something. they stir up a lot of people at once. they tap into the themes and feelings that the majority of people are feeling or thinking about. sometimes they bring out these themes or issues....they put a name to what large groups of people are experiencing. some of them are group people to the point that one on one there's not much there but in a group, especially when they are leading a group there's actually a better connection between them and the people around them (ignoring Fi perhaps?). but this isn't the case for all EIE's, just something i noticed with the more charismatic ones. i guess it's why i can get along with them pretty well, devalued Fi.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Yeah, start swinging that ol' Fi-polr tyrannosaurus tail around and the shattering will come
    that's hilarious

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    I've been waiting for you Satan's Avatar
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    Dolphin: What the fuck is a "subjective value system".

  9. #9
    Creepy-female

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    Quote Originally Posted by mercutio View Post
    Dolphin: What the fuck is a "subjective value system".
    I'm trying to describe the difference I feel is between Fi/Te and Fe/Ti. If Fe is the data that makes up Ti systems and Te is the data that comprises Fi systems. Xi is fields so it's more about structuring the data and Xe is the actual data cause it's objects, pieces of info.

    My definitions are, in a nutshell, external things you can trace, you can see how each step follows the next, within consistent parameters. I feel that internal things, although it is possible to trace their progression and it makes sense, these internal things aren't able to appeal directly to structured categorization. Now take Fe, it's internal, but structured by Ti, it's externalized and so all the Fe happenings that would otherwise seem kind of unreasonable, all the situations in which Fe has been manifest, or what Fe has observed, can be structured by Ti to make sense in a bigger picture. So even though Fe/Ti quadra people start out with internal observations, they are put in a larger structure that appeals to externality. Whereas Fi takes Te (external events that don't naturally have a place, but are like external progressions/evolutions according to situations) and Fi takes these and puts them in an internal structure. So you can trace the individual events, you can name them more easily, you can appeal to them as something external, but you can't use external justification to appeal to the overall final structure which is the Fi. It's a little different with Fe/Ti, in which you can't appeal to the externality of the events you started with. A Te person will argue that this happened, and there's nothing more behind it, it's just the event, externality, they appeal to that. When a Fe person will say no, when that happened, it actually had so and so effects internally and the Te person says no, it's just the event. Whereas Fi/Ti is more like...what you decide about the events, a holistic approach to the specific pieces of data observed. So Ti is like, this is the way to think about a set of events, this is what you decide from it, this reasoning is solid. Whereas Fi says no, you can't categorize it like that, the holistic interpretation of these events is subjective. The reasoning may be fine it just doesn't have the ability to appeal to externality which in my opinion depends anyway. What I mean about value systems is that in comparison, Fi is a more subjective value system than Ti. Now you can turn those definitions on their heads and make them confusing but I'm using them for observation straight to description purposes, nothing more.

    So basically what I'm saying is that, Fi people can make choices or a have a lifestyle that can't be traced externally. So when arguing or interacting with a Ti person the Ti person has the external edge. They can play the external card. I'm not saying that that works or that it's important or that it's right. I'm just saying they can appeal to externality. The same way with the interaction between Te and Fe. Te can appeal to externality. Fe can't.

    I'm not saying necessarily that it has much do to with social norms or the lifestyle choices of a person because if you switch vantage points of say, a Quadra, social norms or choices or whatever change completely (I explained what could be a possibility for that correlation with Fi, but it's more variable than that really)..because there isn't something or someone that universally defines social norms. It has more to do with the person, and their quadra values, in my opinion.

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