EII-SLE Conflict Relations (INFj & ESTp)

[pesto]

Well, what can I say.

I met my conflictor the other day. (I'm INFJ.) [long and unwinding thoughts] So how do you handle having your gentleness mistaken for lack of a spine?

[FDG]

Gather an ESTj or an ENTj with you. Make them kick the ESTp's ass.

[pesto]

But that's the thing, I can speak up for myself and will eventually, I just rather bite my tounge when someone asks me offensive questions about my private business etc. Why ruin an otherwise pleasant dinner? I'd rather know how to not get those questions in the first place than object to them, because that could get nasty.

This particular woman is fun and sweet and we only meet once a year or so, so it will be fine. But what about when you can't choose your company, like in a work environment? Is there a trick I can do to let the ESTPs know that I will strike back when they least expect it? :wink: No, but really, how do I get them to back off a bit other than by being aggressive?

[pesto]

Could you explain the situation a little better, so maybe I could see what he (the ESTp) was doing? That'll help a lot. What was he doing that annoyed you exactly?

We answered at the same time but I'm sure I could elaborate more. I'm not sure what lead up to it, but I got the feeling my being perfectly happy (I was even smiling, hah) made her nervous and she thought asking me if I still hadn't graduated (etc) would be a good way to show interest. The only thing I can think of that could have been troublesome for her would be that I waited for all the kids to pick a chair before sitting down and perhaps I was too quiet to seem happy to her. (I was eating and scanning the table to decide what to eat next.)

Would it help to say those things out loud? ("I'm waiting for the kids to sit down. " but something less disresectful to the kids and "Now I'll start eating so I won't talk.")

[Joy]

It sounds like you understand that she just doesn't understand you. I know what I would tell most people to do in that scenario, but given that you're conflictors... I dunno, I haven't found any effective way of dealing with mine except to avoid the immature ones. The mature ones (like FDG ) are easy to talk to if both people understand that it's pretty easy to have misunderstandings, but nothing personal is meant by it.

I guess my only recommendation would be to first and foremost, reward positive behavior with Fe. Be very friendly and warm when they're not being offensive. ExTps LOVE non-awkward warmth. When they are, ignoring them or like Kraus said, making them feel like they're being annoying, is prolly your best bet.

[Fermi]

noo! don't say they are annoying!

It is soo mean

[pesto]

Just flat out tell them that they're being annoying. Maybe act a little angry, but don't draw anything out. The short, simple or anti- related comments are the ones that hurt the most.

I've been thinking about this and I think part of the problem is that to me it would be aggressive to correct someone's behaviour in any tone in front of 11 others.

I could probably do it one on one though. And I can be good when they are. Thanks guys!

[MySaviour]

Well, what can I say.

I met my conflictor the other day. (I'm INFJ.) [long and unwinding thoughts] So how do you handle having your gentleness mistaken for lack of a spine?

Could you explain the situation a little better, so maybe I could see what he (the ESTp) was doing? That'll help a lot. What was he doing that annoyed you exactly?

Gather an ESTj or an ENTj with you. Make them kick the ESTp's ass.

Nah, that usually doesn't work. I have my experiences. :wink:

ESTPs are cock suckers. Completely frank, and uncaring about what they are doing to other people, as long as they are getting where they want to be. So utterly obsessed with not being controlled, and more than that, being dominant and IN control, that they totally fuck everyone, and when they start to get somewhere, they start fucking themselves. And when they finally realize the shitty position they are in, they go into denial, and start fucking with people more, to feel a bit better. Kinda like this.

Kraus: Save yourself, lose the Se.

[FDG]

Nah, that usually doesn't work. I have my experiences. :wink:

Well, at least verbally, it works.

[Joy]

Just flat out tell them that they're being annoying. Maybe act a little angry, but don't draw anything out. The short, simple or anti- related comments are the ones that hurt the most.

I've been thinking about this and I think part of the problem is that to me it would be aggressive to correct someone's behaviour in any tone in front of 11 others.

I could probably do it one on one though. And I can be good when they are. Thanks guys!

ooooh that makes it tricky. I am careful to scold people in private. Whatever my message, I try to avoid attacking or comprimising their public appearance. That's when they get defensive, and the message cannot be heard. Could you ask her to help you in the other room?

[Fermi]

haha, cant you film when you break the news that he/she is annoying! haha

It will be so funny

[pesto]

Just flat out tell them that they're being annoying. Maybe act a little angry, but don't draw anything out. The short, simple or anti- related comments are the ones that hurt the most.

I've been thinking about this and I think part of the problem is that to me it would be aggressive to correct someone's behaviour in any tone in front of 11 others.

I could probably do it one on one though. And I can be good when they are. Thanks guys!

ooooh that makes it tricky. I am careful to scold people in private. Whatever my message, I try to avoid attacking or comprimising their public appearance. That's when they get defensive, and the message cannot be heard. Could you ask her to help you in the other room?

Not in this case but I should keep that in mind for the future.

But what I really want to know is how to not get in those situation to begin with.

[Expat]

ESTPs are cock suckers. Completely frank, and uncaring about what they are doing to other people, as long as they are getting where they want to be. So utterly obsessed with not being controlled, and more than that, being dominant and IN control, that they totally fuck everyone, and when they start to get somewhere, they start fucking themselves. And when they finally realize the shitty position they are in, they go into denial, and start fucking with people more, to feel a bit better. Kinda like this.

I think it's a bit different -- it's not that they actually think, "I don't care about other people, fuck them" but rather that they don't realize it. So if you tell them, clearly, directly, "what you are doing is despicable and everyone knows it and despises you for it", I think it hurts. A lot.

[MySaviour]

ESTPs are cock suckers. Completely frank, and uncaring about what they are doing to other people, as long as they are getting where they want to be. So utterly obsessed with not being controlled, and more than that, being dominant and IN control, that they totally fuck everyone, and when they start to get somewhere, they start fucking themselves. And when they finally realize the shitty position they are in, they go into denial, and start fucking with people more, to feel a bit better. Kinda like this.

I think it's a bit different -- it's not that they actually think, "I don't care about other people, fuck them" but rather that they don't realize it. So if you tell them, clearly, directly, "what you are doing is despicable and everyone knows it and despises you for it", I think it hurts. A lot.

The everyone thinks you suck for it part?

I think that ESTPs think that their brutal honesty is welcomed. ESTPs think that although others react negatively to what they say, they really value their "realness" in the end. An ESTp thinks they are hitting the nail on the head when they are letting it off. They are pretty confident that they are saying the right thing when people start squirming. They realize something.. and they use it.. and all this needing to be in control shit, is like a fear of subordination, and there is none worse than complete rejection. Because then you are, like, nothing.

????

I think they know.

[pesto]

and all this needing to be in control shit, is like a fear of subordination, and there is none worse than complete rejection. Because then you are, like, nothing.

Actually that makes some sense in this situation because the university I still (haha) haven't graduated from is (one of) the best renowned in my little country. And another of her bonding attempts was to mention how she had sat in on a lecture in my school and how the students didn't pay attention or what it was. It had nothing to do with me, so I just ignored her. An ENFJ present however found reason to "defend" me, which made her take some of it back.

But it's not my problem in any way when someone has a problem with my brain capacity and I'm too fed up with the competitiveness in said school to waste even a second bothering about someone else's projections.

[pesto]

Just flat out tell them that they're being annoying. Maybe act a little angry, but don't draw anything out. The short, simple or anti- related comments are the ones that hurt the most.

I've been thinking about this and I think part of the problem is that to me it would be aggressive to correct someone's behaviour in any tone in front of 11 others.

I could probably do it one on one though. And I can be good when they are. Thanks guys!

Yeah, if you do it in front of 11 others, that might backfire. So the best idea would be either to do it in private, or maybe whisper it in her ear so no one else can hear it.

Say something along the lines of, "Stop doing that. It's annoying." Make sure NOT to say "I think it's annoying," because it'll have much less of an effect, and she'll probably keep doing whatever she was doing. She'll probably get quiet for a little bit afterwards. (You can mold the wording to fit the situation, though.)

Hope I helped.

Oh yes, thank you! I would definitely had said "I think" if you hadn't mentioned it.

[Ezra]

Then again, I really do not see you faring well with any sort of dominant .. I personally think they'd be scared as hell of you..

Would you be?

[Minde]

Then again, I really do not see you faring well with any sort of dominant .. I personally think they'd be scared as hell of you..

Would you be?

In person or on the forum? On the forum, you can't do me any physical harm. Either way, I'd probably be more likely to be annoyed by than afraid of you. Or see you as a silly little boy and treat you as such - as you've already experienced.

I think for us to get along for any extended period of time, you'd have to tone down on the roughness and general forcefulness of how you come across. For example, I would not take you yelling at me or calling me names as a sign of maturity or friendship on your part.

However, I don't know you well enough to give you a truly definite answer on the subject.

EDIT: Hm, the first part doesn't come across quite the way I intended it. To clarify, I don't necessarily mean that I find you annoying or anything like that, only that if I had to experience a negative emotion in regards to you it would more likely be annoyance or frustration or even just "" than fear. But, again, this is just here on the forum and at the level that I currently know you. I'm not certain how it would be - different or the same - if we were physically in the same room or if I had more experiences regarding you.

[Ezra]

Understandable. Although my forcefulness is part of my character. It's very hard to tone down on it without some support from people who are adept at helping me to tone down.

[Minde]

So, you'd listen to someone if they told you you were being too forceful? Perhaps you can expand on this, because I'm not sure I quite understand you.

[UDP]

It means he fully identifies with being forceful as who he is. As such, he does not have to make excuses and relies on other people to cover up his mistakes or carelessness. Look at his what's my type thread - it is like the ultimate excuse against efficiency or caring - he just expected everyone to help him find his type, do all his thinking for him, and showed no regrets about the lack of productivity.

From a negative delta perspective, it was all noise and no substance -- very beta. Much like a young adolescent screaming for help, or making a scene, to get help with homework because he doesn't want work for it himself, put in his own time and effort.


Now obviously this thread is "negative", but consider it one perspective.

[UDP]

Alternately, as an ST myself, I am finding I get all sorts of advice, particularly ethically. I'm not forceful, just more coldly realistic than some people seem to enjoy. However I do not think it is totally a great thing, as it seems it can inhibit productivity, and lead ti distraction and suffering. So, it is something I am working on.

[Ezra]

So, you'd listen to someone if they told you you were being too forceful?

Yes. It is important that one lets me know about how I am making others feel.

Say I was being a prick to someone. For them to let me know "you know you really have hurt me" - this is extremely important to me. I don't care if I am off-putting to others or abrasive in any way, but if I have actually hurt someone through my actions, one has to let me know that this is the case.

[Ezra]

It means he fully identifies with being forceful as who he is. As such, he does not have to make excuses and relies on other people to cover up his mistakes or carelessness. Look at his what's my type thread - it is like the ultimate excuse against efficiency or caring - he just expected everyone to help him find his type, do all his thinking for him, and showed no regrets about the lack of productivity.

From a negative delta perspective, it was all noise and no substance -- very beta. Much like a young adolescent screaming for help, or making a scene, to get help with homework because he doesn't want work for it himself, put in his own time and effort.


Now obviously this thread is "negative", but consider it one perspective.

See, you say this, but what I was doing was the most effective method. It was asking experienced socionists for their opinion on my type, letting me go and read the descriptions about said types, and then me coming back to them and saying "yes, this is my type" or "no, this is not me".

[XoX]

It means he fully identifies with being forceful as who he is. As such, he does not have to make excuses and relies on other people to cover up his mistakes or carelessness. Look at his what's my type thread - it is like the ultimate excuse against efficiency or caring - he just expected everyone to help him find his type, do all his thinking for him, and showed no regrets about the lack of productivity.

From a negative delta perspective, it was all noise and no substance -- very beta. Much like a young adolescent screaming for help, or making a scene, to get help with homework because he doesn't want work for it himself, put in his own time and effort.


Now obviously this thread is "negative", but consider it one perspective.

See, you say this, but what I was doing was the most effective method. It was asking experienced socionists for their opinion on my type, letting me go and read the descriptions about said types, and then me coming back to them and saying "yes, this is my type" or "no, this is not me".

Ezra, it wasn't the most effective method. I mean your first thread is/was super long. Unless I mix things up you also did another thread which is pretty long too. And on top of that your type is still somewhat unclear. The method was not the worse method there is but it was certainly not the _most effective method_.

[UDP]

It means he fully identifies with being forceful as who he is. As such, he does not have to make excuses and relies on other people to cover up his mistakes or carelessness. Look at his what's my type thread - it is like the ultimate excuse against efficiency or caring - he just expected everyone to help him find his type, do all his thinking for him, and showed no regrets about the lack of productivity.

From a negative delta perspective, it was all noise and no substance -- very beta. Much like a young adolescent screaming for help, or making a scene, to get help with homework because he doesn't want work for it himself, put in his own time and effort.


Now obviously this thread is "negative", but consider it one perspective.

See, you say this, but what I was doing was the most effective method. It was asking experienced socionists for their opinion on my type, letting me go and read the descriptions about said types, and then me coming back to them and saying "yes, this is my type" or "no, this is not me".

Ok, but if you were using the most effective method, and you really believe that, then you have to accept the consequence that you are not very intelligent.

Would it not make sense that if someone was using the most effective method, they would find their type, and know for certain, with in a much shorter time, compared to other people?


Its your call. If you really want to hang your hat on the idea that your thread was "the most effective method", then so be it, just accept the consequences of that situation. Also, the forum members are not all experienced and seasoned, professional socionists.

[Ezra]

Ok, but if you were using the most effective method, and you really believe that, then you have to accept the consequence that you are not very intelligent.

Would it not make sense that if someone was using the most effective method, they would find their type, and know for certain, with in a much shorter time, compared to other people?


Its your call. If you really want to hang your hat on the idea that your thread was "the most effective method", then so be it, just accept the consequences of that situation. Also, the forum members are not all experienced and seasoned, professional socionists.

Fuck off. Come up with a better method for a beginner in socionics.

[UDP]

"......"
[spoil:b354326434]

(( There is nothing to be gained from saying my initial reaction, is there.))

[/spoil:b354326434]

[Minde]

Yes. It is important that one lets me know about how I am making others feel.

Say I was being a prick to someone. For them to let me know "you know you really have hurt me" - this is extremely important to me. I don't care if I am off-putting to others or abrasive in any way, but if I have actually hurt someone through my actions, one has to let me know that this is the case.

Not everyone will say plainly, "Ouch, that hurt" ...

[Ezra]

Yes. It is important that one lets me know about how I am making others feel.

Say I was being a prick to someone. For them to let me know "you know you really have hurt me" - this is extremely important to me. I don't care if I am off-putting to others or abrasive in any way, but if I have actually hurt someone through my actions, one has to let me know that this is the case.

Not everyone will say plainly, "Ouch, that hurt" ...

Yes, and that's a problem. Which is why I am learning to be less harsh. So that I minimise the risk of doing this.

[aut0]

Alternately, as an ST myself

It's still problematic for me to see you as an ST. You're all talk no action, the exact opposite of every ESTj I know.

I am all talk and no action - how so? I would like to hear your explanation.

You = ISFJ



"Rawrrrr share my self righteous views or I'll shove them down your throat!"

EDIT there was a godzilla pic here but it started getting slow

[Minde]

Not everyone will say plainly, "Ouch, that hurt" ...

Yes, and that's a problem. Which is why I am learning to be less harsh. So that I minimise the risk of doing this.

Being who I am, it makes me happy to hear that.

[UDP]

Alternately, as an ST myself

It's still problematic for me to see you as an ST. You're all talk no action, the exact opposite of every ESTj I know.

I am all talk and no action - how so? I would like to hear your explanation.

You = ISFJ



"Rawrrrr share my self righteous views or I'll shove them down your throat!"

One thing's for sure, when I want to be on top I stay on top. ((None of this subordinate male bullshit))

But no, I am not a Se creative, and not an ESI
If you know me at all, you will see I am desperately seeking Fi, and it is not something I have control over (as in, people have control over their dominant function)

[sally]

Hello, I'm new

Could someone give some insight on a ESTPmale16 vs. an INFJ39 mom?

Could any two people be farther apart? Is there any common ground that can be found until the child is able move out and be self sufficient? The male does not respect the authority of the female over his life. Father is INTJ and tries to mediate, mother is exhausted and takes long breaks to cope, strain on marriage and younger children.

It is my nature to "fix" things, but perhaps some things cannot be fixed, as the teen isn't interested in change or a relationship with mom, the best I can hope for is some maturity later in life??? PS - ESTP girlfriend complicates the issue. Any input is appreciated.

[Creepy-bg]

alot of it could simply be teenage vs parent caused, not type related... I know it doesn't give much solace hearing that but it will get better in a couple of years when you're old enough to get out and establish your identity away from your parents.

[Jarno]

ESTP and INFJ have a so called "conflict" relationship.

They only solution I've read on a socionics description is to keep a polite approach towards eachother.

The closer the relationship gets, the more risk on conflicts.

[Jarno]

I agree that being as civil as possible to each other and from my experience, limiting discussion, and following the rules is the best way to avert conflict...and not to lose your head and do something really stupid when in a heated conflict.

I know what it's like living with a conflicter. It sucks ass, even if the two can tolerate each other most of the time, but when in conflict, the other person can magnificently manage to make it seem like your life is pointless and not worth living...the other retaliates by nature. You just have to recognize the good they have done in your life and look to the future and try not to get too screwed up by some of the crap you have to deal with (and same for the other person).

I don't believe you can fix this relationship. In my situation, my mom has tried but I tell her this is the way things are. All you can do is support whichever party and help them to pull along, reminding them that they're not what the other person thinks they are. The two probably won't ever be able to be 'friends' but they can have a more or less civil relationship if both parties are willing to acknowledge the others' differences with respect, not with aggression because that only destroys people, it doesn't make them change to accomodate the other.

Totally agree.

[sally]

I think I may have sounded third person while trying to state the problem objectively.

I am the infj, the mother. My son has no interest in changing. I have tried to change to accomodate him...but the fact is...I still need to be a parent to him and his personality is taking it's toll on my physical health. I am always sick and recently developed chest pain. I keep saying to myself....be better....let it go....patience and strength....he can't make you sick, only you make you sick....but the fact is, as hard as I try I am still struggling very much. He only wants to play...and life isn't always play...and if you take away his play he will make life miserable for you until his fun returns. I've been leaving the house alot to relax, but the fact is....I have to have a place to live too, as do the other people in this house and it isn't fair that we have to vacate just to breathe. Counseling isn't helping. How to get through the next few years, when only one is willing to respect and change?

[Ezra]

alot of it could simply be teenage vs parent caused, not type related...

I think this is very likely. Mothers have a tendency to read into things too much.

[Blaze]

sereno, what do you think is so bad about beta? and while you're at it, what's so bad about delta?