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    Default Te and Ti

    would a hacker/programmer/etc use Te or Ti more to get their job done? is it more of a this is 1) so, i see that if i do this, it produces this result, so, 2) how do i get through or do this and that.." without without actually needing to understand it... or is it more of an internal deep understanding of the program?

    or would it be the programmer who uses Ti more and hacker uses Te more.. or am i so wrong.. i'm just trying to understand Te and Ti differences..

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    Te would focus on what a program can do or what each individual line of code does in the program. Ti focuses on all the parts of the program and how they are connected together forming a network within the program.
    3w4-5w6-9w8

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    Quote Originally Posted by aixelsyd View Post
    In how to implement the script or whatever program in regards to knowing what it is good for and knowing how to use it and knowing when and in what situation it is most effective, that is Te as it is taking the tool created and using it to respond to a situation via knowledge of what it is used for and having knowledge to identify when and where this tool should be used versus Ti know how of understanding how the tool is made and what its components are.
    i feel like i am too stupid to understand that ._.;; but i think i got the gist of it...


    umm i got these definitions from a site:
    Hacker: Always trying new things, trying to stretch the limits of what’s possible or what exists. This could be from the perspective of science (Einstein, Tesla, Michio Kaku, etc), the environment (Amory Lovins, Paul Hawken), in addition to the more common usage in computers. Linus Torvalds is a great example of a hacker – he had two giant ideas that few thought were possible – writing a free operating system and doing it with a worldwide collection of volunteers (GNU/FSF fans, I’m not forgetting you, I’m just citing the most prominent example). Once something is functional and successful, the hacker moves on to another hard problem, like a serial entrepreneur.

    Engineer: All of the definitions of engineering that I’ve found were too complicated and missed the point, so I propose this: An engineer is someone who takes something that is known to be possible, and makes it fit within a given, limiting set of criteria. Some common criteria are:

    * within a fixed budget
    * meet a performance benchmark
    * exceed certain reliability requirements
    * make it aesthetically pleasing
    * must include a certain capacity
    * meet arbitrary regulations (accessibility, environmental, paying living wages, etc)

    which one would sound more like Te and Ti to you?

    to me, though i may be wrong, could you replace the word Hacker with Te and Engineer with Ti and the definition would remain somewhat accurate?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    No, neither of these.
    whats aspects would Te and Ti focus on then?
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    Quote Originally Posted by aeon View Post
    would a hacker/programmer/etc use Te or Ti more to get their job done? is it more of a this is 1) so, i see that if i do this, it produces this result, so, 2) how do i get through or do this and that.." without without actually needing to understand it... or is it more of an internal deep understanding of the program?

    or would it be the programmer who uses Ti more and hacker uses Te more.. or am i so wrong.. i'm just trying to understand Te and Ti differences..
    Si with Te.

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    I really like these themes, for the information elements. I think they explain the information elements rather well (in their most useful state):

    : harmony, pleasure, health, comfort, pleasantness, satisfaction, convenience, quality, cosiness, aesthetics

    : authority, influence, desire, political interest/personal investment, competition/struggle, willpower, impact, force, appearance, readiness, tactics, territory

    : development over time (processes), cause and effect, history, planning, forecasting, past/future, rhythm, speed, urgency, fantasy

    : potential/possibility, the unique and unusual, ability, essence, perception of the whole, uncertainty, the unknown, search, internal makeup, suddenness, chance, being, permanence, impermanence

    : analysis, law, hierarchy, classification, understanding, order, (legal) right, system, structure, formal logic

    : benefit, efficiency, action, knowledge, method, mechanism, act, work, motion, reason, technology, fact, expediency, economy

    : like/dislike, decency and niceness, morals, good/evil, etiquette, humanism, attraction/repulsion, sympathy, compassion

    : emotions and emotional expression, passion, mood, excitation, exuberance, romanticism, imitation, acting

    Whoever wrote them out originally, good job. But you can kind of see where Ti and Te might fit into programing and hacking, I'm not going to say.

    In addition, I don't think the second "state-of-mind" descriptions on the wikisocion are as informative as these ones.

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    this phrase i've heard, where.. Ti is the trees and then Te the forest.

    i always think of engineers as the ones who understand the internal structure of something, like making a car or an airplane stable... then a hacker as the one who can do similar things but opposite modes of thinking..

    i don't feel i would trust a hacker to make me a plane that can stay afloat, though i might ask them to make me a modified plane.. or to break through something. i always see the hacker as one that pushes the boundaries.

    "to stretching the limits, coming up with new innovative ideas and using parts to create it and making it to be able to function."

    i tried, but I can't see how that is Ti.

    to me, Ti i see as more of understanding the technique deeply, then using the technique to create what's in your mind. like focus on a ..tree and everything about it then, branching out? i know that engineers do create a lot of things but i mean.. it's using the same internal logic rather then.. for hackers it's like completely new gates each time.. (is it?) kind of like a puzzle each time and once they figure out how the gates work they just go through it and move on..

    whereas Te = forest. trying to find a path through something almost through trial and error... i see it as what Ashton says.. "X, Y, and Z happened. They did this, that, and this other thing. Which then caused 1, 2, 3. What more needs to be said?" a basic understanding is all they(hackers.. or should i say crackers? i'm not sure.) need, to solve something or create. i see it as really experimental. kind of like creating new materials to work with... is Ti like working with what you have to the best of your ability?

    yes they both create.. but.. i think it is different kind of creations. in that engineer kind of remains with one tree.. and the hacker always
    explores the forest.

    maybe i don't understand the definition of hacker..

    Quote Originally Posted by polikujm View Post
    : analysis, law, hierarchy, classification, understanding, order, (legal) right, system, structure, formal logic

    : benefit, efficiency, action, knowledge, method, mechanism, act, work, motion, reason, technology, fact, expediency, economy
    thank you



    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Si with Te.
    Si and Te? then i think of ISTP.. then i think of a person who is more of a mechanic.. i don't understand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    on the other hand largely takes such questions of context for granted, prioritizing attention on the causal mechanics of what is explicitly observable, the patterns and trends apparent in their activity, their nature of operation, and impact upon reality. To the mentality, it's enough that "X, Y, and Z happened. They did this, that, and this other thing. Which then caused 1, 2, 3. What more needs to be said?"
    This is an attitude that has bothered me fairly often lately, though I suspect that it was types bothering me with it rather than types.



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    Quote Originally Posted by aeon View Post
    "to stretching the limits, coming up with new innovative ideas and using parts to create it and making it to be able to function."

    i tried, but I can't see how that is Ti.
    It strikes me as rather .

    As for the definition of "hacker"... I know that people who wrote whole computer programs from scratch have been called "hackers," and I see that as more of a activity. In general, I view hacking as making a small change to an existing structure to achieve the effect that you want, whereas engineering is producing the structure in the first place. Both seem rather , though in light of Labcoatian Accepting/Creating, hacking might be more base and engineering more creative.

    Hacking of the "this works, so do it" variety can be done, but tends to reach a dead end: at some point the structure can no longer support new additions. I know of a few pieces of shopping-cart software that have suffered form this. In contrast, mainline open-source software grows by being hacked in a sustainable way, which requires attention to and maintenance of the structure.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    As for the definition of "hacker"... I know that people who wrote whole computer programs from scratch have been called "hackers," and I see that as more of a activity. In general, I view hacking as making a small change to an existing structure to achieve the effect that you want, whereas engineering is producing the structure in the first place. Both seem rather , though in light of Labcoatian Accepting/Creating, hacking might be more base and engineering more creative.

    Hacking of the "this works, so do it" variety can be done, but tends to reach a dead end: at some point the structure can no longer support new additions. I know of a few pieces of shopping-cart software that have suffered form this. In contrast, mainline open-source software grows by being hacked in a sustainable way, which requires attention to and maintenance of the structure.
    That's sexy.

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    Good, because that would be retarded.

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    true.. i guess hacking without trying to understand something could turn out really messy.. and then i guess hackers do enjoy trying to learn what something is.

    Quote Originally Posted by aixelsyd View Post
    Well, I was thinking Ne blocked with Ti as in Alpha Ti as they are not really inseparable in actual application, but I forget that that is not a concept everyone might be familiar with, particularly if they are still somewhat fresh to the theory.
    by.. that do you mean ENTP and INTJ?

    if hacking and engineering are Ti-heavy, what would be Te-heavy activities? are things like.. economics and .. marketing considered Te?

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    No. The Functions are interpretations of information, not arbitrary, culturally influenced categories of information like "engineering" and "marketing".
    OPERATION POOPLAIR

    Now conscripting, for more information come here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...48#post1003048

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    Ti: What does it have to do with this?

    Te: Does it cut down trees?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    ...
    What about in terms of the the example provided. What does that mean in terms of how the two types might approach programing?
    3w4-5w6-9w8

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    No. The Functions are interpretations of information, not arbitrary, culturally influenced categories of information like "engineering" and "marketing".
    Lol @ not creative Ti.

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    Ashton,

    your avatar is getting to my feelings....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Getting to your feelings? Wtf why. It's eternal glee.
    : like/dislike, decency and niceness, morals, good/evil, etiquette, humanism, attraction/repulsion, sympathy, compassion,

    also feelings derived from images.

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    I started getting a feeling in my penis derived from specific images. I must really be Fi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by polikujm View Post
    I started getting a feeling in my penis derived from specific images. I must really be Fi.
    LOLOLOLOL

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    To me, and this is one thing which has helped me see I´m not a Ti-ego, the difference is big.
    Ti-egos such as the LSIs I know see things as axioms, general rules which can ALWAYS be applied with at least 90% success. For example this Psychiatric doctor who´s a good friend of mine always carries an Iphone full of Psychiatry and Pharmacology books and is not in the least embarassed - in fact he´s kind of proud - to look on these books to remember general rules which are then applied to all patients. This was the major reason I quit being his patient. He would not accept that 10mg of Zyprexa were too much for me, because this was not in any of his literature and not in any research he read, so he supposed I was making drama. He could not accept AN EXCEPTION TO A GENERAL RULE, HE TRUSTED TOO MUCH THE GENERAL AXIOM. The same thing I see with my LSI uncle, he´s an economist who´s totally axiomatic. If something is not an axiom, a general rule, it is just useless. Exceptions are seen as totally rare and quite forgettable, since they are rare and unimportant. The general axioms and rules are what matters so they try to memorize and understand how things fit into these general rules and axioms or categories.

    Te on the other hand is much more flexible. It pays more attention to details and specifics, and so not so much to generals and axioms. It does not try to see how something fits into a general rule, pattern, axiom or category, but instead tries to analyze using previous knowledge which is not general but particular, that is, gathered from particulars. It sees exceptions as something important to be considered, and so sees details and flaws which Ti may miss since it is inserting the specific case in a general system. Te has no such ability, it does not insert the specific case in a general system - one of its weaknesses - but instead tries to figure it out by itself, using its own reasoning powers and general information. I´d say Te is much more original and self-confident thinking than Ti, but it lacks the ability to see how something blatantly fits a system or rule or axiom, and therefore misses obviousnesses because it is preoccupied with analysis from a singular perspective rather from the general perspective such as in Ti.

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    Rarely Ti is going to come up with something new, invent something.

    On the other hand, Te is very innovative and welcoming of new ideas and systems when Ti is just going to disregard them as useless, for example, Socionics system of Psychology is likely to be accepted much more by Te than Ti at first. This is another difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Airborne View Post
    Te on the other hand is much more flexible. It pays more attention to details and specifics, and so not so much to generals and axioms. It does not try to see how something fits into a general rule, pattern, axiom or category, but instead tries to analyze using previous knowledge which is not general but particular, that is, gathered from particulars. It sees exceptions as something important to be considered, and so sees details and flaws which Ti may miss since it is inserting the specific case in a general system. Te has no such ability, it does not insert the specific case in a general system - one of its weaknesses - but instead tries to figure it out by itself, using its own reasoning powers and general information. I´d say Te is much more original and self-confident thinking than Ti, but it lacks the ability to see how something blatantly fits a system or rule or axiom, and therefore misses obviousnesses because it is preoccupied with analysis from a singular perspective rather from the general perspective such as in Ti.
    Quote Originally Posted by Airborne View Post
    Rarely Ti is going to come up with something new, invent something.

    On the other hand, Te is very innovative and welcoming of new ideas and systems when Ti is just going to disregard them as useless, for example, Socionics system of Psychology is likely to be accepted much more by Te than Ti at first. This is another difference.

    That's not Te, it sounds more like Ti actually. Ti hypothesizes and filters information by its own understanding. Te takes in information as it is, it absorbs information like a memory card. Ti picks up the data it needs and than forms its own information.
    Te isn't comfortable doing what Ti dose since it can't feel confident in the accuracy of self-developed information if there's nothing to back up its reliability.
    Ti isn't comfortable with the Te method since it doesn't trust the correctness of outside sources

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    Te: takes any input "as it is given" as long as it is from a reliable source (or person)
    Fi: tells you which sources are reliable (or which people to trust)

    Fi is here the filter.

    Fe: takes the input not "as it is given" but "reading between the lines"
    Ti: organizes such input logically, rejecting the bits that do not fit logically.

    Ti is here the filter.

    In both cases, Fe and Te get the external, dynamic, input - they are the "antennae" - and Fi and Ti select what is "correct" according to "static" criteria of how things, or people, connect - they are the "filters".
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    Marie84, could you explain this better? I didn´t understand.
    I have realized I can barely understand most of what INFJs write.

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    So it would be that Ti synthesises information and Te takes the information as it is? Te will repeat the information more so in it's raw form while Ti would look towards understanding the information, condensing it. So if you ask a Ti dominant for more details which don't fit into their area of understanding, they probably couldn't tell you - they need to link info together. You could ask a Te dominant a simple question and they will just give you fact after fact (and boring ppl while theyre at it lol).

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    Marie, let us see what others have to say about this, perhaps they can enlighten us about Te and Ti.

    To my limited knowledge of socionics, Ti is SYSTEMS AND METHODS, so it absorbs and sees how something fits into a system. An Encyclopedia would be an example of Ti for me.

    Te on the other hand is not concerned with systems and general methods. An example of Te would be a medical case-report or a newspaper news.

    Let us see what other members think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Airborne View Post
    To my limited knowledge of socionics, Ti is SYSTEMS AND METHODS, so it absorbs and sees how something fits into a system. An Encyclopedia would be an example of Ti for me.

    Te on the other hand is not concerned with systems and general methods. An example of Te would be a medical case-report or a newspaper news.
    Ti forms information to fit into *its* system, as in it's own understanding of what is correct. Te is more so method, as it takes what's been sourced to be efficient and reliable.

    Encyclopedias are more so Te, they're a product of accepted information (how such and such is spelled and what it means). There's no room for Ti there since what a word means is not really debatable. Like, if you wanted to call a car a tree you could, but you'd just look and sound like an idiot

    I'm not really comfortable typing things like the news since it can really depend on the people in charge of distributing and collecting the information.

    Rick wrote a good summary of Ti vs Te on his blog;

    " focuses on the external proof of assertions - facts, examples, illustrations, concrete data and its interpretation - while introverted logic focuses on internal proofs of the logic of statements and the consistency of logical principles applied."


    In other words, Te informs itself by means of absorbing information (what is reliable) whereas Ti dose so by processing information through its own internal grounds for correctness (what makes sense to them)

    Marie, let us see what others have to say about this, perhaps they can enlighten us about Te and Ti.

    ....
    Let us see what other members think.
    This means nothing to me unless people can back-up what they say with sourced Te information, what someone personally believes to be correct in their own mind holds little weight to me
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand
    Both seem rather Ti, though in light of Labcoatian Accepting/Creating, hacking might be more Ti base and engineering more Ti creative.
    Engineering is about perfecting some entity (program, situation, etc), so its Creating P, not Creating J. The latter would relate to an honest attempt at finding out a fact of some kind, or deciding what is the correct thing to do at any particular moment. It concerns distinctions between states of affairs and/or decisions.

    Of course, if you associate engineering with Accepting Ti, you get the same results because the Creating P function is necessitated.
    Last edited by krieger; 07-13-2010 at 03:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Airborne View Post
    I have realized I can barely understand most of what INFJs write.
    You will understand us better when you use your knowledge () to fill in the gaps rather then interpret what we write. You are supposed to complete the sentances for us not "understand" what we say...Everything about what we say is already in your mind, that's how dual works. Kind of like my example of you focusing on the camera, when I VI-d you, and how I explained to you what I look for when I want to see if you're an E or an I type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    You will understand us better when you use your knowledge () to fill in the gaps rather then interpret what we write. You are supposed to complete the sentances for us not "understand" what we say...Everything about what we say is already in your mind, that's how dual works. Kind of like my example of you focusing on the camera, when I VI-d you, and how I explained to you what I look for when I want to see if you're an E or an I type.
    How is he supposed to do that if he's not Te-ego?



    Stop confusing the man, Maritsa! Perhaps you like how he looks, but that does not mean he's your dual. Unless you're not EII.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    How is he supposed to do that if he's not Te-ego?



    Stop confusing the man, Maritsa! Perhaps you like how he looks, but that does not mean he's your dual. Unless you're not EII.
    OH I knew that this headache had some occult meaning to it. Here she comes again. The marvelous ranting lady who declared eternal animosity to my person. Am I that important. I even feel flattered. Please Workaholic this time just don´t drop the conversation´s level below minimal politeness. THANK YOU. lol.

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    There is a grave problem in this forum in that there are two perspectives on what the functions are. One perspective treats the functions in terms of how they direct the other functions when they are in charge, the other treats them in terms of their aspects.

    The problem is that there is little to no distinction being made between the perspectives.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    isn't going to be any less hypothetical than Both will 'pick' and 'filter' information and evidence as necessary to develop and sustain the conclusion which makes the most sense to them.

    only appears more objective in that it ultimately converges upon a conclusion pointing towards something empirical or objectively-based. But that doesn't make its any less arbitrarily subjective than .
    Do you have sources to back up that Te and Ti means this?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Yes I do. Do you have anything to back up what you're saying or are you just going to continue preaching your own opinions as fact?
    What have I stated that's opinions>fact?
    I find this rather amusing since I've been mocked for quoting and linking information from sources like crazy rather than basing arguments on my own understanding
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    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
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    I've never done socionics from "reliable sources" and I really don't want to. I like to try to start with aspectonics or generally agreed-upon ideas of subjectivity, objectivity, introversion, extroversion, etc. But those terms are so wide open to interpretation that it's basically saying whatever you want to say. I mean, how are we ever going to do anything but parrot if we do nothing but explain what Gulenko meant when he said boo? I'd rather go back to interpreting Jung (with the assistance of Model A) than anything else, really. As far as I'm concerned, socionics (and MBTI) is one big literary critical project on Jung.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    Engineering is about perfecting some entity (program, situation, etc), so its Creating P, not Creating J. The latter would relate to an honest attempt at finding out a fact of some kind, or deciding what is the correct thing to do at any particular moment. It concerns distinctions between states of affairs and/or decisions.

    Of course, if you associate engineering with Accepting Ti, you get the same results because the Creating P function is necessitated.
    This seems to make sense actually. Although I don't quite grasp the whole meaning of "entity" here, so you'll have to explain. Producing-Ti can often be about creating a system of rules, creating a method of analysis within itself, and this can often seem very engineer like. Innovating is about initial phases of hypothesizing and planning out what to do, coming up with original, more effective processes to go abouts something, like Aushra's Socionics theory or Einstein's theory of relativity, where as engineering seems to be about using the process to perfect, making moderate advances. I guess the question of determining qualification is: are you going to assure that it works, or are you just assuming it works? Are you using the process, or are you modifying it in some effort to clarify it? INTjs are also "result" types, which doesn't seem surprising.
    Last edited by 717495; 07-14-2010 at 08:59 AM.

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    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marie84 View Post
    Do you have sources to back up that Te and Ti means this?
    I don't think this approach can work. Socionics isn't fully estabilished as a thought-system, at least in the West, so "sources" aren't more credible than Pinocchio's words. There isn't even a particularly high volume of empirical research on the matter of "defintion of functions", so it'd be hard to find anything that could be considered as a "reliable source".

    Furthermore, I personally think that whenever people are studying an abstract subject there will not be an extremely strong difference between their approaches, whether they're Ti or Te types. I met many Ti types in my economics courses (mostly ISTj and ENFj), their papers were not blatantly different from those of ENTjs or INTps, even though I think ISTjs tended to be more conservative in their approach and conclusions (but that's usually connected to lacking intuition).
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    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Pretty much. When it comes to functions at least, really the only person worth reading on them is Jung. And Lenore Thomson, a bit.
    Oh, I like Lenore Thomson. I've never actually read her. But I've read the Lenore Thompson Exegesis wiki.

    If nothing else, I find the socionics model far more intelligent and far more intuitive than the MBTI model.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polikujm
    This seems to make sense actually. Although I don't quite grasp the whole meaning of "entity" here, so you'll have to explain.
    An entity is anything that can be denoted with a word. It is a very general term. Entities are distinguised from distinctions only (which, in turn, are expressed in sentences rather than words instead).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marie84 View Post
    Do you have sources to back up that Te and Ti means this?
    Why do you need a source?
    FiNe does not need sources, we do not use imperical information to judge the accuracry of the statement, we use REASON and RATIONAL thought.

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