ENFj vs ISTj (similarities? differences? VOTE FOR MY TYPE!)

[XoX]

Note: Don't be afraid to vote!! You don't have to know all details of me in order to vote. Vote according to your "guts" or your "head" or whatever. If you roughly know who I am and maybe even have patience to read this post then you are a perfect voter. And I don't have any bias on this so no need to try to please me. I can handle any result like a (wo)MAN and I have the right to disagree, hehe.

It is known that people sometimes mistake themselves as their duals. Environment may make them overuse their "dual block" and neglect their true strengths. I made a separate thread of this to general discussion so don't discuss the issue here in general level.

This thread is for a) discussion about the difference between ENFj and ISTj (they have more in common than you would think) and b) voting and discussing which of these devils I am.

For more information see my official typing thread: http://the16types.info/forums/viewto...525&highlight=

and my Beta welcome thread: http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3601

This is the summary of the case for both types:

Case 1:

I'm ENFj (FeNi) with ISTj (TiSe) tendencies
+ My forum/chat personality so far been clearly more ENFj according to most people. No one has seriously thought I'm ISTj (so far)
+ ENFj is most popular VI result
+ ENFj profiles generally match me "ok" or "why not" except they somehow give softer, more social and more extroverted impression than I would like
+ Self-made and wife assisted functional analysis points to ENFj or INFp functional preferences
- I never thought I'm ENFj before I got here and started to learn the functions and the theory and discuss with people about socionics. The ENFj descriptions didn't strike me that well pre-forum time
-> Removed the relationship part, see discussion below
- There is a tiny but loud minority of forum members who remain convinced I'm not ENFj

Case 2:

I'm ISTj (TiSe) with ENFj (NeFi) tendencies
+ My first MBTI test said INTJ (I didn't know anything about the theory)
+ I once also thought to be MBTI ISTP which roughly corresponds to socionics ISTj (I could relate to TiSe but my understanding of the functions was quite limited)
+ I thought to be ST while I came here (but my first test result was NT). I had never got a test result of F before coming here (but some people here quickly said I'm more likely F)
-> Removed the relationship part, see discussion below
- ISTj descriptions don't seem to fit as well as ENFj descriptions. However there are ISTj descriptions that fit better than the others. Some give "maybe" fit and some "not probable" fit
- I was encouraged to be physical when child (parents, friends) and did lots of sports because of that. When I went to college that changed quickly and I became way more "mental". So childhood environment might have encouraged me to develop my ISTj tendencies more than ENFj tendencies.
- Majority of people think my written/forum/chat argumentation style strongly utilizes Fe and only occasionally Ti
- There is a large and loud majority of forum members who are convinced I'm not ISTj.

So which is more likely my real personality type and which is my dual personality which is only partly me? I know I have something from both but I'm not 100% sure which is dA mAsTeR.

[Sarah]

+ My wife is a possible ESFj which would make ISTj her illusionary (=INTj look-a-like). Not too rare for a couple to be like that. We could be illusionaries..or not..hard to say yet.

Hi Xox! ESFj and ISTj are semi-duals, which might somewhat help the case for ISTj, though to me you seem much more ENFj than ISTj. Anyway, best of luck with your search.

[implied]

[Kristiina]

Neither. I know ISTjs and I know one ENFj (but I know her very well). You don't sound like either of those types.

[Expat]

Altogether I think you're more likely an ENFj than ISTj, you don't seem to have a PoLR. You "navigate" between all the possible types comfortably and without stress. An ISTj, if interested in socionics, would be more likely to first convince himself that he was one type, then find reasons to confirm that, and only after the evidence against it became overwhelming would he reluctantly abandon that original typing - and then the same process would start with another type he now thought he was.

What I find odd is that at one point you thought you were ISTp (the ENFj's conflictor) and ENFp (the ISTj's conflictor), while I can never ever imagine typing myself as an ISFp - - but perhaps that only shows that in the beginning you did not know much about the types.

[implied]

[XoX]

Hi Xox! ESFj and ISTj are semi-duals, which might somewhat help the case for ISTj, though to me you seem much more ENFj than ISTj. Anyway, best of luck with your search.

Oops I always confuse look-a-likes and comparatives and semi-duals and illusinaries ...

I don't think we are semi-duals but who knows. I just want to tie all the loose ends. It bothers a bit if we are both extroverts. It would be more likely for one to be introvert. But...I admit our roles switch occasionally. As in I am usually the more talkative one together and in company but still my wife is more responsible for keeping our social network alive and kicking etc.

I could see two Fe:s colliding. Our arguments heat up superfast. It only needs 3-4 sentences to get a good heated fight going. We once thought maybe start a small business together but gave that up -> it would be too fiery. Then again as long as the negative emotions are kept iin chains we can have lots of fun. We agree on finances and children issues and many other "hard issues". And the fights are forgotten pretty fast. This sometimes amuses our friends because we can do this argue-cool down-laugh-argue-cool down-laugh cycle in public too.

[XoX]

Neither. I know ISTjs and I know one ENFj (but I know her very well). You don't sound like either of those types.

grrrrrrrrrr well you have a Finnish sounding name so I still like you

[XoX]

What I find odd is that at one point you thought you were ISTp (the ENFj's conflictor) and ENFp (the ISTj's conflictor), while I can never ever imagine typing myself as an ISFp - - but perhaps that only shows that in the beginning you did not know much about the types.

this seems to happen to a lot of people, and i'll agree that it's probably due to not knowing much about the types or being too deeply stuck in the whole "if not i then e" sort of process of thinking.

or thinking that MBTI and socionics are basically one in the same. which i admit, i did, at first.

Yep. And ISTP thing was mostly for MBTI ISTP who is TiSe. I didn't pay that much attention to socionics types before I found out MBTI and socionics really have many differences. Now I'm thinking I might have been under the illusion of having strong TiSe (which this thread is eventually about).

Socionics ISTj descriptions generally don't fit me well but I finally found one which I could be -> contributed to starting this thread.
If I had to choose between "inspector" and "mentor" as they are sometimes called then me and all my friends would probably choose "mentor" i.e. ENFj. There is a little perfectionistic inspector in me but it is not a defining character. As my wife says, my Ti is there but in her understanding it only shows occasionally. I'm not sure if ISTj could hide it? Same with Se basically.

The ENFp was an experiment. I tried to make a case for it and live as one to see how it feels. For some reason I felt ENFp and INFj to be the natural steps after deciding I'm not ISTp Same quadra and everything. And I was starting to think myself as F-type and those were the Delta F:s.

Only after VI, deeper functional analysis and other conversations I started to seek types from other quadras. Looking more closely to ENFj started from VI because to my surprise that suggestion was surfacing over and over again.

I guess people saw some similarities between me and this guy:

The guy looks like he has lowish Si doesn't he?

[XoX]

Altogether I think you're more likely an ENFj than ISTj, you don't seem to have a PoLR. You "navigate" between all the possible types comfortably and without stress.

True, I seriously doubt the Ne PoLR. But I somehow doubt it can be a leading or creative function. Anyways, in some ways I'm anti-ISTj because I'm interested in trying all "roads" and tying all loose-ends before I can commit myself.

This bothers me a bit since it is not very Ni (more Ne?). I explain the difference to e.g. ENTjs with Ti/Te. ENTjs are TeNi and thus come to conclusion faster. My preferred logic (I guess) is Ti which needs all the pieces tried, matched and put together in this wholistic experience of "fitting". Also since this is intertype-theory I feel it is important to have most people agree with my type not just believe in it myself. So I need to get the "it fits" experience with "data" and with interpersonal relations. Of course after I'm done here I have to get it in real life too

[XoX]

i don't really see ENFj that much, but then again, i'm not claiming to be some expert at typing via the internet.

why not just step back from all this for a while and come back to it later (re: your own type)?

maybe type some people you know IRL if you're still interested in learning about socionics. just direct some of the self-typing angst towards something else, like, typing your friends or something.

After this thread is done I will do that Unless there is a "breakthrough" here that changes everything of course.

[implied]

[Transigent]

Edited for gayness.

[XoX]

[implied]

[Slacker]

ISTj?? No way.

I don't know what you are but I can't imagine you're that.

[Sarah]

Oops I always confuse look-a-likes and comparatives and semi-duals and illusinaries ...

Those are the ones that I mix up the most, too. The way I remember it is that your semi-dual has the same first function as your dual and your comparative has the same first function as you. (Illusionaries and Look-a-likes have the same second functions as you and your dual.)

I could see two Fe:s colliding. Our arguments heat up superfast. It only needs 3-4 sentences to get a good heated fight going. We once thought maybe start a small business together but gave that up -> it would be too fiery. Then again as long as the negative emotions are kept iin chains we can have lots of fun. We agree on finances and children issues and many other "hard issues". And the fights are forgotten pretty fast. This sometimes amuses our friends because we can do this argue-cool down-laugh-argue-cool down-laugh cycle in public too.

Will someone who knows more than I do comment if this fits a comparative relationship? It sounds like there are a few relationships it could fit, but I'm not sure which ones. (I know, any one thing could fit any relationship, but this pattern seems like it might be present in some relations more than others.)

[XoX]

Ok. I think it is time to end my public type discussion. I still encourage those who haven't voted yet to vote in my poll(s). They are open for about 7-14 days depending on the poll. I'm still open for PM, IM and IRC discussions regarding my type but I try to cool down the public discussion (enough is enough and not much more progress can be made as stated by several people and I have no desire to become the official attention biatch around here).

It is true that in the end type can be verified only in real life and probably only in situations where there is lots of competition and "fighting for survival" (in a way) which makes you rely mostly on your strongest functions. In internet or during any "peaceful real life times" there is no such pressure and your less preferred/"weaker" functions may stick their ugly head up.

I wan't to thank everyone who participated. I won't name any names here but YOU probably know how much YOU contributed and I'm especially thankful to those who were there when I needed information and/or support and/or encouragement